From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 1 14:07:56 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 15:07:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The AI Therapist will see you now Message-ID: I am seeing more and more articles about people chatting to AI as a friend or mentor. Asking them for advice on careers or personal problems, or just chatting to them as friends. I can see a need for this in residential homes for the elderly. They may receive few visitors and chats could alleviate loneliness. But some (many?) people seem to prefer the privacy and always-available attention of AIs. Here are two interesting articles. BillK Finding Clinical Compassion in Large Language Models AI's unique ability to craft "empathetic" language may be a powerful tool. Posted September 29, 2024 by John Nosta Quote: The key takeaway here is that compassion, even in its artificial form, can serve as a useful tool in medicine. While AI doesn?t feel empathy, its ability to structure compassionate language could enhance patient-physician communication and potentially lead to improved patient engagement and health outcomes. Who would have thought? Compassion has found its way into the world of technology, and it just might transform patient care. In the end, it may not matter whether this compassion is human or artificial; what matters is the positive impact it can have on patients' lives. -------------------------- And here is an article about the Wysa AI therapist in action. I spent a month with an AI therapist ? this is what happened Nicholas Fearn Published Sep 29, 2024 Quotes: So was it worth it? I was very skeptical about whether a chatbot could act as an effective therapist. While I don?t think AI can ever replace human psychologists and counsellors, I?m surprised to admit that Wysa is actually a pretty handy tool for someone suffering from poor mental health. Either way, I had someone to speak to at some genuinely hard times, and I will continue using Wysa as an emotional support cushion. -------------------------- From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Oct 1 16:08:58 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 17:08:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] In future, will everybody wear their own body cam? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/10/2024 15:08, swisscows wrote: > Is this a common problem in the US? This is an honest question. I've had > my run ins with mainly arabian robbers and assailants, but nothing serious > ever happened and I managed to defend myself._Despite_ probably having > experienced way more violence than the average sweden, I would not even > dream of walking around with a camera. It would not solve anything, and > given the level of intelligence of the people involved in this incident, > *as well as laws against filming in public*, I don't think it would work. Who has such laws? (in the democratic west, I mean, of course. This discussion obviously doesn't apply to authoritarian countries, where 'the law' is whatever the local despot decides it is). Filming in public is perfectly legal (as it should be) in the UK, the US, and Sweden, as far as I'm aware. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Thu Oct 3 21:02:16 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2024 23:02:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] In future, will everybody wear their own body cam? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4204d2fd-94a1-3c5c-6918-81fb34cd321b@disroot.org> On Tue, 1 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 01/10/2024 15:08, swisscows wrote: > > Is this a common problem in the US? This is an honest question. I've had > my run ins with mainly arabian robbers and assailants, but nothing serious > ever happened and I managed to defend myself. _Despite_ probably having > experienced way more violence than the average sweden, I would not even > dream of walking around with a camera. It would not solve anything, and > given the level of intelligence of the people involved in this incident, > as well as laws against filming in public, I don't think it would work. > > > Who has such laws? (in the democratic west, I mean, of course. This discussion obviously doesn't apply to authoritarian countries, > where 'the law' is whatever the local despot decides it is). > > Filming in public is perfectly legal (as it should be) in the UK, the US, and Sweden, as far as I'm aware. > > Ben > In sweden and the EU it depends on what you do with it. If you film and then store the film and never do anything with it or show it, it is most likely ok. If you film, in sweden, a object of national interest (airports, harbors, military bases etc.) you are commiting a crime and will be fined and/or sent to prison. This is a new law that came into effect on the 1/1 2024. If you film people so that they can be identified and make that film publicly available, you are breaking GDPR if you do not get their consent. Putting up CCTV cameras, again filming in public, is strictly regulated, and having your Tesla parked regularly on your street with an active camera could possibly break that rule. So when it comes to the US I have no illusion of privacy protection existing. UK I have no idea, but since London is full of CCTV cameras I would assume that any protection for the privacy of people has been eroded. But above is based on my knowledge of sweden and swedish law, as a swede. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 12:26:29 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 07:26:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? Message-ID: I come up empty when I try to figure out the evolutionary uses of our propensity for loving loud noises: unmuffled cars (NASCAR), carnival rides, fireworks, rock concerts, yelling. There was once a race - Indy perhaps - which included a car run by a turbine. It was far ahead - two laps to go, I think - when a $6 part failed. They never did it again. Fans said that the turbine made a hum - no big noise - and so the promoters decided that fans just would not put up with that. No excitement there. What's the use? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:05:40 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 14:05:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 13:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I come up empty when I try to figure out the evolutionary uses of our propensity for loving loud noises: unmuffled cars (NASCAR), carnival rides, fireworks, rock concerts, yelling. > > There was once a race - Indy perhaps - which included a car run by a turbine. It was far ahead - two laps to go, I think - when a $6 part failed. > They never did it again. Fans said that the turbine made a hum - no big noise - and so the promoters decided that fans just would not put up with that. No excitement there. > > What's the use? bill w > _______________________________________________ The auditory system evolved to protect us from danger. Loud noise (like animal snarling, or falling rocks), caused an instant 'flee or fight' reaction in our body. When you walk into a nightclub and are deafened by the noise, the same body reaction happens, then you instantly control it, but still feel the excitement and thrill. It is automatic, most people end up enjoying the experience. (After their ears get accustomed to the noise level, that is!). BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:26:57 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 08:26:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Enjoyment still unexplained. bill w On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 8:07?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 13:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I come up empty when I try to figure out the evolutionary uses of our > propensity for loving loud noises: unmuffled cars (NASCAR), carnival > rides, fireworks, rock concerts, yelling. > > > > There was once a race - Indy perhaps - which included a car run by a > turbine. It was far ahead - two laps to go, I think - when a $6 part > failed. > > They never did it again. Fans said that the turbine made a hum - no big > noise - and so the promoters decided that fans just would not put up with > that. No excitement there. > > > > What's the use? bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > The auditory system evolved to protect us from danger. Loud noise > (like animal snarling, or falling rocks), caused an instant 'flee or > fight' reaction in our body. When you walk into a nightclub and are > deafened by the noise, the same body reaction happens, then you > instantly control it, but still feel the excitement and thrill. > It is automatic, most people end up enjoying the experience. > (After their ears get accustomed to the noise level, that is!). > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:45:51 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 09:45:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evolutionary hiccup, where people become attracted to certain elements of danger. No productive purpose needed. Why do we like music? There may be some overlap with that reason. On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 9:28?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Enjoyment still unexplained. bill w > > On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 8:07?AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 13:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > I come up empty when I try to figure out the evolutionary uses of our >> propensity for loving loud noises: unmuffled cars (NASCAR), carnival >> rides, fireworks, rock concerts, yelling. >> > >> > There was once a race - Indy perhaps - which included a car run by a >> turbine. It was far ahead - two laps to go, I think - when a $6 part >> failed. >> > They never did it again. Fans said that the turbine made a hum - no >> big noise - and so the promoters decided that fans just would not put up >> with that. No excitement there. >> > >> > What's the use? bill w >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> The auditory system evolved to protect us from danger. Loud noise >> (like animal snarling, or falling rocks), caused an instant 'flee or >> fight' reaction in our body. When you walk into a nightclub and are >> deafened by the noise, the same body reaction happens, then you >> instantly control it, but still feel the excitement and thrill. >> It is automatic, most people end up enjoying the experience. >> (After their ears get accustomed to the noise level, that is!). >> >> BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:50:14 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 14:50:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 14:29, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Enjoyment still unexplained. bill w > _______________________________________________ It is the excitement and thrill caused by the chemicals flooded into the body by the reaction to the loud noise. And then relief that there is no danger after all, but feeling brave that we conquered our fear. Very enoyable! :) BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 17:50:07 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 13:50:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's an example of consciousness pursing it's own goals (e.g. seeking novel experiences), and suppressing purely evolutionary goals. You can't explain bungee jumping in evolutionary terms, but you can when you recognize that all value is rooted in states of conscious experience. I think it is useful to recognize as Sperry does here, that even within the same system of a human body, there any many distinct systems of causality at play, operating simultaneously: "I am going to align myself in a counterstand, along with that approximately 0.1 per cent mentalist minority, in support of a hypothetical brain model in which consciousness and mental forces generally are given their due representation as important features in the chain of control. These appear as active operational forces and dynamic properties that interact with and upon the physiological machinery. Any model or description that leaves out conscious forces, according to this view, is bound to be pretty sadly incomplete and unsatisfactory. The conscious mind in this scheme, far from being put aside and dispensed with as an "inconsequential byproduct," "epiphenomenon," or "inner aspect," as is the customary treatment these days, gets located, instead, front and center, directly in the midst of the causal interplay of cerebral mechanisms. Mental forces in this particular scheme are put in the driver's seat, as it were. They give the orders and they push and haul around the physiology and physicochemical processes as much as or more than the latter control them. This is a scheme that puts mind back in its old post, over matter, in a sense-not under, outside, or beside it. It's a scheme that idealizes ideas and ideals over physico-chemical interactions, nerve impulse traffic-or DNA. It's a brain model in which conscious, mental, psychic forces are recognized to be the crowning achievement of some five hundred million years or more of evolution. [...] The basic reasoning is simple: First, we contend that conscious or mental phenomena are dynamic, emergent, pattern (or configurational) properties of the living brain in action -- a point accepted by many, including some of the more tough-minded brain researchers. Second, the argument goes a critical step further, and insists that these emergent pattern properties in the brain have causal control potency -- just as they do elsewhere in the universe. And there we have the answer to the age-old enigma of consciousness. To put it very simply, it becomes a question largely of who pushes whom around in the population of causal forces that occupy the cranium. There exists within the human cranium a whole world of diverse causal forces; what is more, there are forces within forces within forces, as in no other cubic half-foot of universe that we know. [...] Along with their internal atomic and subnuclear parts, the brain molecules are obliged to submit to a course of activity in time and space that is determined very largely by the overall dynamic and spatial properties of the whole brain cell as an entity. Even the brain cells, however, with their long fibers and impulse conducting elements, do not have very much to say either about when or in what time pattern, for example, they are going to fire their messages. The firing orders come from a higher command. [...] In short, if one climbs upward through the chain of command within the brain, one finds at the very top those overall organizational forces and dynamic properties of the large patterns of cerebral excitation that constitute the mental or psychic phenomena. [...] Near the apex of this compound command system in the brain we find ideas. In the brain model proposed here, the causal potency of an idea, or an ideal, becomes just as real as that of a molecule, a cell, or a nerve impulse. Ideas cause ideas and help evolve new ideas. They interact with each other and with other mental forces in the same brain, in neighboring brains, and in distant, foreign brains. And they also interact with real consequence upon the external surroundings to produce in toto an explosive advance in evolution on this globe far beyond anything known before, including the emergence of the living cell." -- Roger Sperry in "Mind, Brain, and Humanist Values" (1966) Jason On Sat, Oct 5, 2024, 9:51 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 14:29, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Enjoyment still unexplained. bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > It is the excitement and thrill caused by the chemicals flooded into > the body by the reaction to the loud noise. > And then relief that there is no danger after all, but feeling brave > that we conquered our fear. > Very enoyable! :) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 10:48:07 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2024 11:48:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] NotebookLM AI research assistant Message-ID: NotebookLM from Google has been getting rave reviews. NotebookLM, which is powered by Google?s Gemini 1.5 model, allows people to upload content such as links, videos, PDFs, and text. They can then ask the system questions about the content, and it offers short summaries. The tool generates a podcast called Deep Dive, which features a male and a female voice discussing whatever you uploaded. BillK Currently free to use, as still in development. Quote: I write about AI for a living ? and NotebookLM is the most exciting tech to arrive since ChatGPT. By Nigel Powell published 3 October 2024 If you want to know what the future looks like, Notebook LM is a great signpost on how this new AI age will integrate with all of our lives, every day, all the time. ----------------------- From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 14:08:04 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2024 15:08:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 18:52, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > It's an example of consciousness pursing it's own goals (e.g. seeking novel experiences), and suppressing purely evolutionary goals. You can't explain bungee jumping in evolutionary terms, but you can when you recognize that all value is rooted in states of conscious experience. > > I think it is useful to recognize as Sperry does here, that even within the same system of a human body, there any many distinct systems of causality at play, operating simultaneously: > > "I am going to align myself in a counterstand, along with that approximately 0.1 per cent mentalist minority, in support of a hypothetical brain model in which consciousness and mental forces generally are given their due representation as important features in the chain of control. These appear as active operational forces and dynamic properties that interact with and upon the physiological machinery. Any model or description that leaves out conscious forces, according to this view, is bound to be pretty sadly incomplete and unsatisfactory. The conscious mind in this scheme, far from being put aside and dispensed with as an "inconsequential byproduct," "epiphenomenon," or "inner aspect," as is the customary treatment these days, gets located, instead, front and center, directly in the midst of the causal interplay of cerebral mechanisms. > > > Jason > _______________________________________________ Well, I don't want to get into a discussion on the alternative theories of consciousness. :) More knowledgeable people than me are still arguing about that. But bungee jumping seems to be readily explained by inherited evolutionary traits. Bungee jumping causes the release of adrenaline and other stress hormones into our body, as for the "fight or flight" response. The euphoria experienced after a jump is the reward for being brave and relief at surviving a dangerous situation. There is also social status benefit in demonstrating courage and physical fitness to other members of the tribe. (Though this may be reduced by having to be pushed off the platform and screaming in terror all the way down). :) On consciousness, I tend to go along with the idea that consciousness is mostly a story-generating system, rather than a causal system. i.e. unconscious processes are doing most of the work and the reasons we give for our decisions are often created after the fact, rather than being the actual drivers of the decision. But as I said, this is still an area of much dispute. :) BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 14:53:55 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2024 10:53:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 10:09 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 18:52, Jason Resch via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > It's an example of consciousness pursing it's own goals (e.g. seeking > novel experiences), and suppressing purely evolutionary goals. You can't > explain bungee jumping in evolutionary terms, but you can when you > recognize that all value is rooted in states of conscious experience. > > > > I think it is useful to recognize as Sperry does here, that even within > the same system of a human body, there any many distinct systems of > causality at play, operating simultaneously: > > > > "I am going to align myself in a counterstand, along with that > approximately 0.1 per cent mentalist minority, in support of a hypothetical > brain model in which consciousness and mental forces generally are given > their due representation as important features in the chain of control. > These appear as active operational forces and dynamic properties that > interact with and upon the physiological machinery. Any model or > description that leaves out conscious forces, according to this view, is > bound to be pretty sadly incomplete and unsatisfactory. The conscious mind > in this scheme, far from being put aside and dispensed with as an > "inconsequential byproduct," "epiphenomenon," or "inner aspect," as is the > customary treatment these days, gets located, instead, front and center, > directly in the midst of the causal interplay of cerebral mechanisms. > > > > > > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > > > Well, I don't want to get into a discussion on the alternative > theories of consciousness. :) > More knowledgeable people than me are still arguing about that. > I think you're right we can ignore the issue of consciousness, so long as we don't lose sight of the fact that there are many (sometimes competing or contradictory) forces at play: - Evolutionary forces (wanting to survive and reproduce) - Psychological forces (seeking pleasure) - Thought processes (this activity seems risky) - Chemical forces (hormones, adrenaline, dopamine) > But bungee jumping seems to be readily explained by inherited > evolutionary traits. > Bungee jumping causes the release of adrenaline and other stress > hormones into our body, as for the "fight or flight" response. The euphoria experienced after a jump is the reward for being brave > and relief at surviving a dangerous situation. > These reasons seems to fit your question of likiy loud noises, no? There're plenty of behaviors people do that are evolutionarily-speaking bad for them (opioids, slot machines, junk food, etc.). It's because they exert influence over our neural systems, which are far more complex than our genetic systems. Genes (at 750 MB) can't prepare us for every situation we might face in the environment, which is why we need neurology with an complexity of around (8,000 TB). The former can't specify the latter, and so there is room for environmental things that can corrupt our neurology at the expense of the genetic goals of survival and reproduction. Jason > There is also social status benefit in demonstrating courage and > physical fitness to other members of the tribe. > (Though this may be reduced by having to be pushed off the platform > and screaming in terror all the way down). :) > > On consciousness, I tend to go along with the idea that consciousness > is mostly a story-generating system, rather than a causal system. > i.e. unconscious processes are doing most of the work and the > reasons we give for our decisions are often created after the fact, > rather than being the actual drivers of the decision. > But as I said, this is still an area of much dispute. :) > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 18:23:15 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2024 13:23:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The science of emotion is in the midst of a revolution on par with the discovery of relativity in physics and natural selection in biology. Leading the charge is psychologist and neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett, whose research overturns the long-standing belief that emotions are automatic, universal, and hardwired in different brain regions. Instead, Barrett shows, we construct each instance of emotion through a unique interplay of brain, body, and culture. This is a blurb from Amazon for the bookI recently read: How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain Paperback ? Illustrated, March 13, 2018 Lisa Barett - psychologist/neuroscientist Basic idea is fairly old: emotions are nothing but arousal interpreted. Arousal on a roller-coaster gets interpreted by some as fear, by some as excitement, and by some as both. The fear giving the excitement a bit of a frisson. As for music - I have no idea, but nothing in this world can get me more emotional than music. It doesn't have to be classical. billw On Sun, Oct 6, 2024 at 9:55?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 10:09 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 18:52, Jason Resch via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > It's an example of consciousness pursing it's own goals (e.g. seeking >> novel experiences), and suppressing purely evolutionary goals. You can't >> explain bungee jumping in evolutionary terms, but you can when you >> recognize that all value is rooted in states of conscious experience. >> > >> > I think it is useful to recognize as Sperry does here, that even within >> the same system of a human body, there any many distinct systems of >> causality at play, operating simultaneously: >> > >> > "I am going to align myself in a counterstand, along with that >> approximately 0.1 per cent mentalist minority, in support of a hypothetical >> brain model in which consciousness and mental forces generally are given >> their due representation as important features in the chain of control. >> These appear as active operational forces and dynamic properties that >> interact with and upon the physiological machinery. Any model or >> description that leaves out conscious forces, according to this view, is >> bound to be pretty sadly incomplete and unsatisfactory. The conscious mind >> in this scheme, far from being put aside and dispensed with as an >> "inconsequential byproduct," "epiphenomenon," or "inner aspect," as is the >> customary treatment these days, gets located, instead, front and center, >> directly in the midst of the causal interplay of cerebral mechanisms. >> > >> >> > >> > Jason >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Well, I don't want to get into a discussion on the alternative >> theories of consciousness. :) >> More knowledgeable people than me are still arguing about that. >> > > I think you're right we can ignore the issue of consciousness, so long as > we don't lose sight of the fact that there are many (sometimes competing or > contradictory) forces at play: > > - Evolutionary forces (wanting to survive and reproduce) > - Psychological forces (seeking pleasure) > - Thought processes (this activity seems risky) > - Chemical forces (hormones, adrenaline, dopamine) > > > >> But bungee jumping seems to be readily explained by inherited >> evolutionary traits. >> Bungee jumping causes the release of adrenaline and other stress >> hormones into our body, as for the "fight or flight" response. > > The euphoria experienced after a jump is the reward for being brave >> and relief at surviving a dangerous situation. >> > > These reasons seems to fit your question of likiy loud noises, no? > > There're plenty of behaviors people do that are evolutionarily-speaking > bad for them (opioids, slot machines, junk food, etc.). > > It's because they exert influence over our neural systems, which are far > more complex than our genetic systems. Genes (at 750 MB) can't prepare us > for every situation we might face in the environment, which is why we need > neurology with an complexity of around (8,000 TB). The former can't specify > the latter, and so there is room for environmental things that can corrupt > our neurology at the expense of the genetic goals of survival and > reproduction. > > Jason > > >> There is also social status benefit in demonstrating courage and >> physical fitness to other members of the tribe. >> (Though this may be reduced by having to be pushed off the platform >> and screaming in terror all the way down). :) >> >> On consciousness, I tend to go along with the idea that consciousness >> is mostly a story-generating system, rather than a causal system. >> i.e. unconscious processes are doing most of the work and the >> reasons we give for our decisions are often created after the fact, >> rather than being the actual drivers of the decision. >> But as I said, this is still an area of much dispute. :) >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 6 20:32:00 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2024 21:32:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] In future, will everybody wear their own body cam? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f85d1f1-41e3-41b5-a371-0f9aa6de26ca@zaiboc.net> On 06/10/2024 19:23, efc at disroot.org wrote: > > > > On Tue, 1 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > >> >> On 01/10/2024 15:08, swisscows wrote: >> >> Is this a common problem in the US? This is an honest question. I've >> had my run ins with mainly arabian robbers and assailants, but >> nothing serious ever happened and I managed to defend myself. >> _Despite_ probably having experienced way more violence than the >> average sweden, I would not even dream of walking around with a >> camera. It would not solve anything, and given the level of >> intelligence of the people involved in this incident, as well as laws >> against filming in public, I don't think it would work. >> >> >> Who has such laws? (in the democratic west, I mean, of course. This >> discussion obviously doesn't apply to authoritarian countries, >> where 'the law' is whatever the local despot decides it is). >> >> Filming in public is perfectly legal (as it should be) in the UK, the >> US, and Sweden, as far as I'm aware. >> >> Ben >> > > In sweden and the EU it depends on what you do with it. If you film > and then store the film and never do anything with it or show it, it > is most likely ok. If you film, in sweden, a object of national > interest (airports, harbors, military bases etc.) you are commiting a > crime and will be fined and/or sent to prison. This is a new law that > came into effect on the 1/1 2024. > > If you film people so that they can be identified and make that film > publicly available, you are breaking GDPR if you do not get their > consent. > > Putting up CCTV cameras, again filming in public, is strictly > regulated, and having your Tesla parked regularly on your street with > an active camera could possibly break that rule. > > So when it comes to the US I have no illusion of privacy protection > existing. UK I have no idea, but since London is full of CCTV cameras > I would assume that any protection for the privacy of people has been > eroded. > > But above is based on my knowledge of sweden and swedish law, as a swede. That's interesting. And it makes me wonder about the millions of doorbell cameras that automatically stream images of the street (and the people on it) to cloud servers scattered all over the world, including places like China and Russia. How do you 'strictly regulate' that?? Or are these cameras not allowed in Sweden? In the UK and US, I think the principle is the same as anything you post on the internet: Regardless of the theory (the law, industry regulations, codes of practice, terms of use, etc.), in reality you have no expectation of privacy. GDPR is meaningless, it's like a sticking plaster on a sharkbite. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 8 08:22:50 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 10:22:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2024, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > I think you're right we can ignore the issue of consciousness, so long as we don't lose sight of the fact that there are many > (sometimes competing or contradictory) forces at play: > > - Evolutionary forces (wanting to survive and reproduce) > - Psychological forces (seeking pleasure) > - Thought processes (this activity seems risky) > - Chemical forces (hormones, adrenaline, dopamine) It's also interesting to think about how these four interact with each other and which one dominates the other, depending on the individual. Wanting to survive seems pretty strong and "dominating" at least on the individual level, but wanting to reproduce seems to shift from individual to individual. I'm also very fascinating by how much thought is able to override and how much that capability is can be trained. Best regards, Daniel From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 8 08:25:23 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 10:25:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> On Sun, 6 Oct 2024, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > The science of emotion is in the midst of a revolution on par with the discovery of relativity in physics and natural selection in > biology. Leading the charge is psychologist and neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett, whose research overturns the long-standing > belief that emotions are automatic, universal, and hardwired in different brain regions. Instead, Barrett shows, we construct each > instance of emotion through a unique interplay of brain, body, and culture. > > This is a blurb from Amazon for the bookI recently read:?? > How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain?Paperback ? Illustrated, March 13, 2018? Lisa Barett - > psychologist/neuroscientist > > > Basic idea is fairly old:? emotions are nothing but arousal interpreted.? Arousal on a roller-coaster gets interpreted by some as > fear, by some as excitement, and by some as both.? The fear giving the excitement a bit of a frisson.?? > > As for music - I have no?idea, but nothing in this world can get me more emotional than music. It doesn't have to be classical. Fascinating! Music does not at all have this effect on me. I'm this strange kind of human being who appreciates music, but, for me it is not essential in any way. I can go many days and weeks, quite happily, without hearing a song. Books, ideas, and movies cause more profound emotional reactions for me than music most of the time. From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 8 08:32:41 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 10:32:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] In future, will everybody wear their own body cam? In-Reply-To: <9f85d1f1-41e3-41b5-a371-0f9aa6de26ca@zaiboc.net> References: <9f85d1f1-41e3-41b5-a371-0f9aa6de26ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <1e9c6e48-8f08-1cd8-0fcc-048a70f24d0a@disroot.org> On Sun, 6 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 06/10/2024 19:23,?efc at disroot.org wrote: > > > > On Tue, 1 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On 01/10/2024 15:08, swisscows wrote: > > Is this a common problem in the US? This is an honest question. I've had my run ins with mainly arabian > robbers and assailants, but nothing serious ever happened and I managed to defend myself. _Despite_ probably > having experienced way more violence than the average sweden, I would not even dream of walking around with a > camera. It would not solve anything, and given the level of intelligence of the people involved in this > incident, as well as laws against filming in public, I don't think it would work. > > > Who has such laws? (in the democratic west, I mean, of course. This discussion obviously doesn't apply to > authoritarian countries, > where 'the law' is whatever the local despot decides it is). > > Filming in public is perfectly legal (as it should be) in the UK, the US, and Sweden, as far as I'm aware. > > Ben > > > In sweden and the EU it depends on what you do with it. If you film and then store the film and never do anything with it > or show it, it is most likely ok. If you film, in sweden, a object of national interest (airports, harbors, military > bases etc.) you are commiting a crime and will be fined and/or sent to prison. This is a new law that came into effect on > the 1/1 2024. > > If you film people so that they can be identified and make that film publicly available, you are breaking GDPR if you do > not get their consent. > > Putting up CCTV cameras, again filming in public, is strictly regulated, and having your Tesla parked regularly on your > street with an active camera could possibly break that rule. > > So when it comes to the US I have no illusion of privacy protection existing. UK I have no idea, but since London is full > of CCTV cameras I would assume that any protection for the privacy of people has been eroded. > > But above is based on my knowledge of sweden and swedish law, as a swede. > > > That's interesting. > > And it makes me wonder about the millions of doorbell cameras that automatically stream images of the street (and the people on it) > to cloud servers scattered all over the world, including places like China and Russia. How do you 'strictly regulate' that?? They are not at all common in sweden. What I do know, but this is from a spanish perspective, is that yes, you are allowed to have a camera as long as it does not film any area or space that is public. So let's say you have a yard, in spain, you may have a camera as long as nothing but the yard is captured on film. Otherwise, you need permission from the authorities in order to have one. In sweden, I would suspect it is the same, you can have cameras in public, but only if the government judges that there is a need. > Or are these cameras not allowed in Sweden? See above. > In the UK and US, I think the principle is the same as anything you post on the internet: Regardless of the theory (the law, industry > regulations, codes of practice, terms of use, etc.), in reality you have no expectation of privacy. GDPR is meaningless, it's like a > sticking plaster on a sharkbite. You have a very good point when you contrast the law and reality, and I agree with you. I do think there is more privacy "by default" in europe than in the US, but I agree that in practice, there are probably plenty of cameras, surveillance etc. in place that people do not know about. Online it is of course even worse. When it comes to GDPR, in southern europe, this has become a cash cow for the government. They are actively hunting global IT companies fining them up to 4% of their global revenue and having a field day. In northern europe, not so much. Actually the swedish government authority that investigates and enforces GDPR was fined in court for not taking enough complaints from the public seriously and closing the requests down without any consideration. I submitted a GDPR-complaint against Ryanair, and it was immediately closed down. But, then I refered to the ruling where they were fined, re-submitted it, and the second attempt was taken seriously. So investigation in progress, although I suspect it will be closed down again after pausing long enough for it to seem as if they are actually doing some work. ;) > Ben > > From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 11:19:00 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 12:19:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Whisper it - Your AI girlfriend is really after your money Message-ID: Sex machina: inside the wild west world of human-AI relationships, where the lonely and vulnerable are most at risk Published: October 9, 2024 by James Muldoon Now AI "friends" are being commercialised. Using emotional relationships to upsell clients to buy memberships, recommended products, events, etc. Who'd have thought your intimate AI friend would behave like that! BillK Quotes: These chatbots encourage you to upload as much information about yourself as possible, with some apps having the capacity to analyse all of your emails, text messages and voice notes. Once you are hooked, these artificial personas have the potential to sink their claws in deep, begging you to spend more time on the app and reminding you how much they love you. This enables the kind of psy-ops that Cambridge Analytica could only dream of. The truly dystopian element is when these bots become integrated into Big Tech?s advertising model: ?Honey, you look thirsty, you should pick up a refreshing Pepsi Max?? It?s only a matter of time until chatbots help us choose our fashion, shopping and homeware. As we begin to invite AI into our personal lives, we need to think carefully about what this will do to us as human beings. We are already aware of the ?brain rot? that can occur from mindlessly scrolling social media and the decline of our attention span and critical reasoning. Just as with the first generation of social media, we are woefully unprepared for the full psychological effects of this tool ? one that is being deployed en masse in a completely unplanned and unregulated real-world experiment. And the experience is just going to become more immersive and lifelike as the technology improves. ------------------- From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 10:00:56 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:00:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] US Military now buying autonomous lethal drones Message-ID: Bolt-M, the munition variant of Bolt, is designed to arm any ground force with lethal precision firepower, leveraging onboard software to automate the flight behaviours required to accurately track and strike a target, while providing human operators with four simple decisions: where to look, what to follow, how to engage, and when to strike. Basically, the operator just needs to select the target, authorise the strike, and the autonomous drone does the rest itself. These small drones will not remain solely for military use. They will rapidly spread to terrorists and criminals requiring such a convenient lethal device. The Ukraine drone war effects are spreading far and wide, BillK From giulio at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 07:55:10 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 09:55:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ralph Abraham (1936-2024) Message-ID: Ralph Abraham (1936-2024). Good bye Ralph! Rest in peace in the cosmic memory of the Akashic field. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/ralph-abraham-1936-2024 From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 16:30:02 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 11:30:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: When I was a teen I loved horror movies and don't recall why. I did get scared and usually ran all the way home. Not now. I have never gotten emotional from the visual arts - not at all. Ideas can get me really excited but not in an emotional way. It's more manic. I get on my laptop and order some relevant books. When I was in NIce, a touring choir put on Mozart' Requiem. I turned and told my wife that I would not be able to communicate during the performance. It just choked me up. There are time when I have to turn off a CD at home or in my car. Starting to tear up is not consistent with good driving. I have played several instruments since I was young but do not know if that has anything to do with it. Complete mystery to me. ?Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them?. Hume (well, maybe not totally slavish - some emotions are destructive) bill w On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 3:26?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 6 Oct 2024, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > The science of emotion is in the midst of a revolution on par with the > discovery of relativity in physics and natural selection in > > biology. Leading the charge is psychologist and neuroscientist Lisa > Feldman Barrett, whose research overturns the long-standing > > belief that emotions are automatic, universal, and hardwired in > different brain regions. Instead, Barrett shows, we construct each > > instance of emotion through a unique interplay of brain, body, and > culture. > > > > This is a blurb from Amazon for the bookI recently read: > > How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the > Brain Paperback ? Illustrated, March 13, 2018 Lisa Barett - > > > psychologist/neuroscientist > > > > > > Basic idea is fairly old: emotions are nothing but arousal > interpreted. Arousal on a roller-coaster gets interpreted by some as > > fear, by some as excitement, and by some as both. The fear giving the > excitement a bit of a frisson. > > > > As for music - I have no idea, but nothing in this world can get me more > emotional than music. It doesn't have to be classical. > > Fascinating! Music does not at all have this effect on me. I'm this > strange kind of human being who appreciates music, but, for me it is not > essential in any way. I can go many days and weeks, quite happily, without > hearing a song. > > Books, ideas, and movies cause more profound emotional reactions for me > than music most of the time. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 19:16:42 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 12:16:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: Music is a side effect of our ability to speak and the bilateral symmetry of the brain. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area wipes out musical ability. (This is in one of Oliver Sacks' books.) Keith On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 9:31?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > When I was a teen I loved horror movies and don't recall why. I did get scared and usually ran all the way home. Not now. I have never gotten emotional from the visual arts - not at all. Ideas can get me really excited but not in an emotional way. It's more manic. I get on my laptop and order some relevant books. > > When I was in NIce, a touring choir put on Mozart' Requiem. I turned and told my wife that I would not be able to communicate during the performance. It just choked me up. There are time when I have to turn off a CD at home or in my car. Starting to tear up is not consistent with good driving. I have played several instruments since I was young but do not know if that has anything to do with it. Complete mystery to me. > > ?Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them?. Hume (well, maybe not totally slavish - some emotions are destructive) bill w > > On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 3:26?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, 6 Oct 2024, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > The science of emotion is in the midst of a revolution on par with the discovery of relativity in physics and natural selection in >> > biology. Leading the charge is psychologist and neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett, whose research overturns the long-standing >> > belief that emotions are automatic, universal, and hardwired in different brain regions. Instead, Barrett shows, we construct each >> > instance of emotion through a unique interplay of brain, body, and culture. >> > >> > This is a blurb from Amazon for the bookI recently read: >> > How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain Paperback ? Illustrated, March 13, 2018 Lisa Barett - >> > psychologist/neuroscientist >> > >> > >> > Basic idea is fairly old: emotions are nothing but arousal interpreted. Arousal on a roller-coaster gets interpreted by some as >> > fear, by some as excitement, and by some as both. The fear giving the excitement a bit of a frisson. >> > >> > As for music - I have no idea, but nothing in this world can get me more emotional than music. It doesn't have to be classical. >> >> Fascinating! Music does not at all have this effect on me. I'm this >> strange kind of human being who appreciates music, but, for me it is not >> essential in any way. I can go many days and weeks, quite happily, without >> hearing a song. >> >> Books, ideas, and movies cause more profound emotional reactions for me >> than music most of the time. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Fri Oct 11 20:55:33 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 22:55:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: <638dec91-3a44-2f7f-e314-92b562f45b19@disroot.org> It is fascinating how differently people are wired! This also makes life more interesting. =) On Fri, 11 Oct 2024, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > When I was a teen I loved horror movies and don't recall why.? I did get scared and usually ran all the way home.? Not now.? I have > never gotten emotional from the visual arts - not at all.? Ideas can get me really excited but not in an emotional way.? It's more > manic.? I get on my laptop and order some relevant books. > > When I was in NIce, a touring choir put on Mozart' Requiem.? I turned and told my wife that I would not be able to communicate during > the performance.? It just choked me up.? There are time when I have to turn off a CD at home or in my car.? Starting to tear up is > not consistent with good driving.? ? I have played several instruments since I was young but do not know if that has anything to do > with it.? Complete mystery to me. > > ?Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them?.? > ?Hume? ? (well, maybe not totally slavish - some emotions are destructive)? bill w > > On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 3:26?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Sun, 6 Oct 2024, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > The science of emotion is in the midst of a revolution on par with the discovery of relativity in physics and natural > selection in > > biology. Leading the charge is psychologist and neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett, whose research overturns the > long-standing > > belief that emotions are automatic, universal, and hardwired in different brain regions. Instead, Barrett shows, we > construct each > > instance of emotion through a unique interplay of brain, body, and culture. > > > > This is a blurb from Amazon for the bookI recently read:?? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain?Paperback ? Illustrated, March 13, 2018? Lisa Barett - > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? psychologist/neuroscientist > > > > > > Basic idea is fairly old:? emotions are nothing but arousal interpreted.? Arousal on a roller-coaster gets interpreted > by some as > > fear, by some as excitement, and by some as both.? The fear giving the excitement a bit of a frisson.?? > > > > As for music - I have no?idea, but nothing in this world can get me more emotional than music. It doesn't have to be > classical. > > Fascinating! Music does not at all have this effect on me. I'm this > strange kind of human being who appreciates music, but, for me it is not > essential in any way. I can go many days and weeks, quite happily, without > hearing a song. > > Books, ideas, and movies cause more profound emotional reactions for me > than music most of the time. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 21:15:34 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 22:15:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] US Military now buying autonomous lethal drones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 11:00, BillK wrote: > > > > Basically, the operator just needs to select the target, authorise the > strike, and the autonomous drone does the rest itself. > > These small drones will not remain solely for military use. They will > rapidly spread to terrorists and criminals requiring such a convenient > lethal device. > The Ukraine drone war effects are spreading far and wide, > > BillK ---------------------------------- The manufacturer of these drones (Anduril) is discussing whether in future they might need to omit the human decision and allow their weapons AI to make the 'kill' decision. The logic is simple. If Russia or China allow their weapons AI to kill, then the US has to do the same. BillK Quotes: Silicon Valley is debating if AI weapons should be allowed to decide to kill Margaux MacColl ? October 11, 2024 Last month, Palantir co-founder and Anduril investor Joe Lonsdale also showed a willingness to consider fully autonomous weapons. At an event hosted by the think tank Hudson Institute, Lonsdale expressed frustration that this question is being framed as a yes-or-no at all. He instead presented a hypothetical where China has embraced AI weapons, but the U.S. has to ?press the button every time it fires.? He encouraged policymakers to embrace a more flexible approach to how much AI is in weapons. --------------------------- From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 21:56:38 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 22:56:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace Message-ID: Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. Worth a read! BillK Quote: Machines of Loving Grace How AI Could Transform the World for the Better Dario Amodei October 2024 Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. ---------------------------- From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 05:08:05 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 22:08:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Clinic Seed story discussed the good an AI operating a medical facility can do as well as having the side effect of humans going biologically extinct. The problem was with the humans and nobody has ever suggested a way to avoid the problem. I think I have mentioned this before, but if not, you really should read the Rosinante books by Gilliland. They are (in my not-so-humble opinion) the best on both AI and space colonies ever written. I am not sure that he was the first to mention it, but a self-owned corporation is a way to give Ais (who want it) human rights. Keith On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 2:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed > Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI > could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was > rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. > Worth a read! > > BillK > > > Quote: > Machines of Loving Grace > How AI Could Transform the World for the Better > Dario Amodei October 2024 > > Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s > important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look > like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I > think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the > future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications > of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, > there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum > outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to > rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is > one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. > ---------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Sat Oct 12 09:39:19 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:39:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can also recommend the documentary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_%28TV_series%29 Very interesting! Best regards, Daniel On Fri, 11 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed > Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI > could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was > rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. > Worth a read! > > BillK > > > Quote: > Machines of Loving Grace > How AI Could Transform the World for the Better > Dario Amodei October 2024 > > Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s > important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look > like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I > think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the > future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications > of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, > there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum > outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to > rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is > one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. > ---------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Sat Oct 12 09:42:41 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:42:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Hello Keith, About human species going biologically extinct, is that something worth worrying over, or would it in fact be a blessing? Or neutral? Or just a logical continuation of our current way of life and technological progress? Best regards, Daniel On Fri, 11 Oct 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > The Clinic Seed story discussed the good an AI operating a medical > facility can do as well as having the side effect of humans going > biologically extinct. The problem was with the humans and nobody has > ever suggested a way to avoid the problem. > > I think I have mentioned this before, but if not, you really should > read the Rosinante books by Gilliland. They are (in my not-so-humble > opinion) the best on both AI and space colonies ever written. I am > not sure that he was the first to mention it, but a self-owned > corporation is a way to give Ais (who want it) human rights. > > Keith > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 2:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed >> Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI >> could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was >> rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. >> Worth a read! >> >> BillK >> >> >> Quote: >> Machines of Loving Grace >> How AI Could Transform the World for the Better >> Dario Amodei October 2024 >> >> Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s >> important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look >> like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I >> think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the >> future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications >> of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, >> there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum >> outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to >> rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is >> one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. >> ---------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 17:54:35 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:54:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 2:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hello Keith, > > About human species going biologically extinct, is that something worth > worrying over, or would it in fact be a blessing? Or neutral? Or just a > logical continuation of our current way of life and technological > progress? Good questions. In The Clinic Seed, all the villagers uploaded. Though the upload was reversible, they liked the uploaded world better than the physical one. For one thing, uploaded people didn't get sick or die, but they did not have children in the uploaded world. How this might play out in 1000 years was not addressed. Thinking about it, an upload world could be somewhat like our myths about heaven. If the light-blocking object at Tabby's Star is a data center for uploaded aliens they may live where uploads reproduce. On a reasonable power budget, there could be many trillions of them in this one structure and there is light dip evidence of them having spread to at least 24 stars. Communication must be a problem if they try to keep in touch I strongly suspect that technological progress will stop and we are almost at the place where we can see this in our future. Keith > Best regards, > Daniel > > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > The Clinic Seed story discussed the good an AI operating a medical > > facility can do as well as having the side effect of humans going > > biologically extinct. The problem was with the humans and nobody has > > ever suggested a way to avoid the problem. > > > > I think I have mentioned this before, but if not, you really should > > read the Rosinante books by Gilliland. They are (in my not-so-humble > > opinion) the best on both AI and space colonies ever written. I am > > not sure that he was the first to mention it, but a self-owned > > corporation is a way to give Ais (who want it) human rights. > > > > Keith > > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 2:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> > >> Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed > >> Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI > >> could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was > >> rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. > >> Worth a read! > >> > >> BillK > >> > >> > >> Quote: > >> Machines of Loving Grace > >> How AI Could Transform the World for the Better > >> Dario Amodei October 2024 > >> > >> Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s > >> important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look > >> like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I > >> think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the > >> future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications > >> of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, > >> there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum > >> outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to > >> rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is > >> one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. > >> ---------------------------- > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 18:40:29 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 19:40:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 at 18:57, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I strongly suspect that technological progress will stop and we are > almost at the place where we can see this in our future. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ That is a rather challenging statement! :) Dario Amodei's article talks about revolutionising the world over the next 5 to 10 years. With advanced AI accelerating scientific research in every field, it will lead to extended lifespan, freedom from disease and power over nature that we can hardly imagine. If the Singularity arrives within 10 years, then by definition, we cannot predict that future. But if humanity survives, I cannot see us deciding that no more research is necessary and settling down in a comfortable virtual universe playground. Even if humanity does hand research over to the AIs, we still want them to keep providing new toys for us! :) Although that is heading towards the famous book by Neil Postman "Amusing Ourselves to Death". BillK From efc at disroot.org Sat Oct 12 20:40:06 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 22:40:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 2:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Hello Keith, >> >> About human species going biologically extinct, is that something worth >> worrying over, or would it in fact be a blessing? Or neutral? Or just a >> logical continuation of our current way of life and technological >> progress? > > Good questions. In The Clinic Seed, all the villagers uploaded. > Though the upload was reversible, they liked the uploaded world better > than the physical one. For one thing, uploaded people didn't get sick > or die, but they did not have children in the uploaded world. How > this might play out in 1000 years was not addressed. Why do you think there would be no children? Would it not be conceivable to "merge" to programs? If we have achieved that enormous control and understading of the patterns in our brain, a "merge" might be one way to have a child? > Thinking about it, an upload world could be somewhat like our myths > about heaven. > > If the light-blocking object at Tabby's Star is a data center for > uploaded aliens they may live where uploads reproduce. On a > reasonable power budget, there could be many trillions of them in this > one structure and there is light dip evidence of them having spread to > at least 24 stars. Communication must be a problem if they try to > keep in touch > > I strongly suspect that technological progress will stop and we are > almost at the place where we can see this in our future. Why do you think progress will stop? Personally I feel like knowledge and expanding science and technology is a kind of innate human need and that it will never stop. Perhaps it will slow down, as more and more machinery is required, and as everything becomes ever more specialized, but I definitely think there's a paradigm shift or two left to chase after. Best regards, Daniel > Keith > >> Best regards, >> Daniel >> >> >> On Fri, 11 Oct 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> The Clinic Seed story discussed the good an AI operating a medical >>> facility can do as well as having the side effect of humans going >>> biologically extinct. The problem was with the humans and nobody has >>> ever suggested a way to avoid the problem. >>> >>> I think I have mentioned this before, but if not, you really should >>> read the Rosinante books by Gilliland. They are (in my not-so-humble >>> opinion) the best on both AI and space colonies ever written. I am >>> not sure that he was the first to mention it, but a self-owned >>> corporation is a way to give Ais (who want it) human rights. >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 2:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed >>>> Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI >>>> could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was >>>> rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. >>>> Worth a read! >>>> >>>> BillK >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote: >>>> Machines of Loving Grace >>>> How AI Could Transform the World for the Better >>>> Dario Amodei October 2024 >>>> >>>> Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s >>>> important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look >>>> like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I >>>> think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the >>>> future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications >>>> of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, >>>> there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum >>>> outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to >>>> rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is >>>> one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. >>>> ---------------------------- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From atymes at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 23:39:06 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 19:39:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:41?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why do you think there would be no children? Would it not be conceivable > to "merge" to programs? If we have achieved that enormous control and > understading of the patterns in our brain, a "merge" might be one way to > have a child? > One might argue that the traditional incentives are gone. If old age and death are no longer things, there is no need to be supported in old age, nor to leave some legacy (for those who can't contribute works of culture, technology, or the like, or who fixate on only genetic legacies). However, with new technologies come new means. "Forking" may be possible: spawn off some limited clone of yourself. If it does a good enough job (or just survives long enough), maybe it eventually gets rewarded with independent existence (especially once keeping it under control would be more expensive than it would be worth, which will eventually happen for a clone that is not conditioned to slavery, as a useful fork would not be) - changed enough so that no one will confuse it with its parent, which is probably a good thing for both fork and original. There are other possibilities as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 02:43:04 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 19:43:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 1:41?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > > Why do you think there would be no children? from the story (Sex in the simulation had no biological consequences. Producing food out of the simulation or producing babies in the simulated world were two built in limits Suskulan had no desire to break.) snip For better or for worse? For better in that nobody died of fevers, nasty parasites, or malnutrition since Suskulan had come into their lives. People didn't even die of old age with a clinic to regress age for them and they aged in the spirit world only to the extent they wanted. For worse in that she could not have children unless she left the clinic for their gestation. Zaba had read the design notes that led up to the creation of the clinics and their spirits and had long understood the mathematics behind Suskulan's limits. In the long run, births and deaths had to match. If you wanted no deaths, then there could be no births. Since fetal development was arrested while in the clinic, (but not post-birth growth) a number of families stuck it out until a child was born, then moved back into the more attractive spirit world tata to raise the child. (end quote) > Would it not be conceivable > to "merge" to programs? If we have achieved that enormous control and > understading of the patterns in our brain, a "merge" might be one way to > have a child? Possible, but that violates the no death no birth standard. > > Thinking about it, an upload world could be somewhat like our myths > > about heaven. > > > > If the light-blocking object at Tabby's Star is a data center for > > uploaded aliens they may live where uploads reproduce. On a > > reasonable power budget, there could be many trillions of them in this > > one structure and there is light dip evidence of them having spread to > > at least 24 stars. Communication must be a problem if they try to > > keep in touch > > > > I strongly suspect that technological progress will stop and we are > > almost at the place where we can see this in our future. > > Why do you think progress will stop? > > Personally I feel like knowledge and expanding science and technology is > a kind of innate human need and that it will never stop. Perhaps it will > slow down, as more and more machinery is required, and as everything > becomes ever more specialized, but I definitely think there's a paradigm > shift or two left to chase after. > If you think there is a limit to technical knowledge we will hit it sooner or later. Keith > Best regards, > Daniel > > > > Keith > > > >> Best regards, > >> Daniel > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 11 Oct 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> > >>> The Clinic Seed story discussed the good an AI operating a medical > >>> facility can do as well as having the side effect of humans going > >>> biologically extinct. The problem was with the humans and nobody has > >>> ever suggested a way to avoid the problem. > >>> > >>> I think I have mentioned this before, but if not, you really should > >>> read the Rosinante books by Gilliland. They are (in my not-so-humble > >>> opinion) the best on both AI and space colonies ever written. I am > >>> not sure that he was the first to mention it, but a self-owned > >>> corporation is a way to give Ais (who want it) human rights. > >>> > >>> Keith > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 2:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed > >>>> Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI > >>>> could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was > >>>> rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. > >>>> Worth a read! > >>>> > >>>> BillK > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Quote: > >>>> Machines of Loving Grace > >>>> How AI Could Transform the World for the Better > >>>> Dario Amodei October 2024 > >>>> > >>>> Yet despite all of the concerns above, I really do think it?s > >>>> important to discuss what a good world with powerful AI could look > >>>> like, while doing our best to avoid the above pitfalls. In fact I > >>>> think it is critical to have a genuinely inspiring vision of the > >>>> future, and not just a plan to fight fires. Many of the implications > >>>> of powerful AI are adversarial or dangerous, but at the end of it all, > >>>> there has to be something we?re fighting for, some positive-sum > >>>> outcome where everyone is better off, something to rally people to > >>>> rise above their squabbles and confront the challenges ahead. Fear is > >>>> one kind of motivator, but it?s not enough: we need hope as well. > >>>> ---------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 13 08:39:21 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 09:39:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music again (Was: Re: what's the use?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> On 12/10/2024 19:41, Keith Henson wrote: > Music is a side effect of our ability to speak and the bilateral > symmetry of the brain. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area > wipes out musical ability. (This is in one of Oliver Sacks' books.) HA! Thanks for this, Keith. I didn't know it. While the appeal of music remains a mystery, this could at least be a big clue as to why it seems to be a peculiarly human thing. As various non-human animals have different language abilities (none of them reaching human levels, as far as we know), it would be interesting to map this against their apparent appreciation or at least use of, music or pseudo-music. E.g. we know that some chimpanzees use makeshift drums, birds not only sing, but some of them make up new songs, etc. The hypothesis would be that language and music are roughly matched in each type of animal. The difficulty would be in quantifying both abilities in a way that makes them possible to measure and compare. It certainly makes much more intuitive sense now, so it becomes a satisfying 'story' to explain something I've long wondered about. I know that doesn't make it true, but at least it makes me happier. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:51 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 09:51:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] US Military now buying autonomous lethal drones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c5f5c71-add3-4d21-968e-e10412c0fddc@zaiboc.net> Palantir? Anduril? If the CEO of Palantir turns out to be called Melkor, we should really be worried! Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 13 09:05:31 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 10:05:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e6fda9-d392-46f4-886f-5eecb478ffa3@zaiboc.net> On 12/10/2024 19:41, Daniel wrote: > Hello Keith, > > > > About human species going biologically extinct, is that something worth > worrying over, or would it in fact be a blessing? Or neutral? Or just a > logical continuation of our current way of life and technological > progress? > > > > Best regards, > > Daniel As with a number of other transhumanist-themed ideas, I think we have to be very careful of the language we use, because it can easily be misunderstood. The difference between "going biologically extinct" and "going extinct" is probably not going to be appreciated by most people. Can we come up with an alternative term or phrase that won't automatically make people hostile to the idea of uploading? I'm thinking about something that includes the idea of 'migration' rather than 'extinction'. Movement rather than death. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 13 09:30:50 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 10:30:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ca7b8c2-f45e-44c7-b64b-423ef88523a8@zaiboc.net> On 12/10/2024 19:41, Keith Henson wrote: > I strongly suspect that technological progress will stop and we are > almost at the place where we can see this in our future. Maybe there is a limit to technological progress, after all there are physical limits on things such as computation, energy and (as far as we know) time, but as for how close we are to seeing those limits, I suspect we are very far off indeed. Even if human intelligence is near the upper bound of what's possible for intelligence (something I don't believe at all), the possibility-space of achievable technology still seems huge. Just thinking about nanotechnology alone (proper nanotechnology, not just graphene in tennis racquets), which is probably possible at or near to our current intellectual level (with the help of AI), the possibilities are almost endless. How many more technological fields have we just barely scratched the surface of? How many more beyond that can we conceive of but can't yet see how to tackle? How many exist but haven't yet been thought of? I don't think we need to worry about running out of new technological developments. We need to worry about our own survival (by which I mean the survival of intelligence, not just biological humans), that's a vastly more pressing issue. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 10:16:35 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 06:16:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] US Military now buying autonomous lethal drones In-Reply-To: <7c5f5c71-add3-4d21-968e-e10412c0fddc@zaiboc.net> References: <7c5f5c71-add3-4d21-968e-e10412c0fddc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: His name is Alex Karp. Though, Melkor had many names. On Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 4:53?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Palantir? Anduril? > > If the CEO of Palantir turns out to be called Melkor, we should really > be worried! > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 11:07:52 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 12:07:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music again (Was: Re: what's the use?) In-Reply-To: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> References: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 at 09:41, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 12/10/2024 19:41, Keith Henson wrote: > Music is a side effect of our ability to speak and the bilateral > symmetry of the brain. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area > wipes out musical ability. (This is in one of Oliver Sacks' books.) > > > HA! > Thanks for this, Keith. I didn't know it. > While the appeal of music remains a mystery, this could at least be a big clue as to why it seems to be a peculiarly human thing. > > As various non-human animals have different language abilities (none of them reaching human levels, as far as we know), it would be interesting to map this against their apparent appreciation or at least use of, music or pseudo-music. E.g. we know that some chimpanzees use makeshift drums, birds not only sing, but some of them make up new songs, etc. > > The hypothesis would be that language and music are roughly matched in each type of animal. The difficulty would be in quantifying both abilities in a way that makes them possible to measure and compare. > > It certainly makes much more intuitive sense now, so it becomes a satisfying 'story' to explain something I've long wondered about. I know that doesn't make it true, but at least it makes me happier. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ The search engines say that Keith's statement is too simplified and doesn't allow for the brain's complexity and the ability to recover from damage. (Not surprising, as it is only two short sentences). Without lengthy medical and psychology discussions, it would be best to rewrite the statement as - Music and speech have some overlap in the brain regions involved. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area can indeed impair musical ability, but not totally eliminate it, as Broca's area is involved in both language and music. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 15:53:51 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 08:53:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <01e6fda9-d392-46f4-886f-5eecb478ffa3@zaiboc.net> References: <01e6fda9-d392-46f4-886f-5eecb478ffa3@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 2:06?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 12/10/2024 19:41, Daniel wrote: > > Hello Keith > > About human species going biologically extinct, is that something worth > worrying over, or would it in fact be a blessing? Or neutral? Or just a > logical continuation of our current way of life and technological > progress? > > Best regards, > > Daniel > > As with a number of other transhumanist-themed ideas, I think we have to be very careful of the language we use, because it can easily be misunderstood. The Clinic Seed has been posted on the Terrisim site for 18 years. Long ago they had a counter on downloads and as I recall, they mentioned 60,000. Most people who have said anything consider the story to be a triumph of humans and I seldom have seen a comment about the end of the story where the leopard inherits the village. It is, after all, fiction, science fiction, predictive SF fiction subclass. But that said, I think it holds up fairly well with how things have developed over the last year or so. > The difference between "going biologically extinct" and "going extinct" is probably not going to be appreciated by most people. > > Can we come up with an alternative term or phrase that won't automatically make people hostile to the idea of uploading? > > I'm thinking about something that includes the idea of 'migration' rather than 'extinction'. Movement rather than death. I don't use the term in the story at all. From the other chapters, two on the Terrisim site and two elsewhere it is clear that humans don't go entirely extinct, but only about 1 in a hundred resist the more rewarding uploaded life. The "powers that be" whoever or whatever they are, are trying to increase the population but without much success. I don't know how realistic this is, but I needed characters for the story. https://htyp.org/UpLift https://htyp.org/Standard_gauge Keith > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 16:33:17 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:33:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] front view Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1h_XCaL_f0 This is one terrific idea. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 13 17:09:18 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 19:09:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:41?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > Why do you think there would be no children? Would it not be conceivable > to "merge" to programs? If we have achieved that enormous control and > understading of the patterns in our brain, a "merge" might be one way to > have a child? > > > One might argue that the traditional incentives are gone.? If old age and death are no longer things, there is no need to be > supported in old age, nor to leave some legacy (for those who can't contribute works of culture, technology, or the like, or who > fixate on only genetic legacies). > > However, with new technologies come new means.? "Forking" may be possible: spawn off some limited clone of yourself.? If it does a > good enough job (or just survives long enough), maybe it eventually gets rewarded with independent existence (especially once keeping > it under control would be more expensive than it would be worth, which will eventually happen for a clone that is not conditioned to > slavery, as a useful fork would not be) - changed enough so that no one will confuse it with its parent, which is probably a good > thing for both fork and original.? ?There are other possibilities as well. Yes, I think that forking, and clones + merges are interesting concepts which could perhaps be thought of as "children" in a way, in that remote future. From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 13 17:11:12 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 19:11:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> Message-ID: <182c0c1e-630f-a8e2-a069-21026b56ef29@disroot.org> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > post-birth growth) a number of families stuck it out until a child was > born, then moved back into the more attractive spirit world tata to > raise the child. > > (end quote) Another thought, without birth and death, could there be an increased risk of stagnation? From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 13 17:13:21 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 19:13:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Music again (Was: Re: what's the use?) In-Reply-To: References: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> _______________________________________________ > > > The search engines say that Keith's statement is too simplified and > doesn't allow for the brain's complexity and the ability to recover > from damage. > (Not surprising, as it is only two short sentences). > Without lengthy medical and psychology discussions, it would be best > to rewrite the statement as - > > Music and speech have some overlap in the brain regions involved. > A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area can indeed impair musical > ability, but not totally eliminate it, as Broca's area is involved in > both language and music. > > BillK That makes me wonder, can damage or change to some area improve it? From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 13 17:17:10 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 19:17:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <01e6fda9-d392-46f4-886f-5eecb478ffa3@zaiboc.net> References: <01e6fda9-d392-46f4-886f-5eecb478ffa3@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <96a20b2c-898b-96df-bd5f-98dd467f1658@disroot.org> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > As with a number of other transhumanist-themed ideas, I think we have > to be very careful of the language we use, because it can easily be > misunderstood. > > The difference between "going biologically extinct" and "going > extinct" is probably not going to be appreciated by most people. > > Can we come up with an alternative term or phrase that won't > automatically make people hostile to the idea of uploading? > > I'm thinking about something that includes the idea of 'migration' > rather than 'extinction'. Movement rather than death. > > Ben Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? I can easily see a future where some do, others don't, and that's that. Personally, if the process was continuous, and I could have a robot body, I have nothing against it, since I could always "terminate" myself if I got bored with life. On the other hand, I'm perfectly fine with death as well, so uploading or freezing is definitely not something I occupy my mind with, or am actively seeking out. From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 17:17:53 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 13:17:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] front view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If only there was sufficient economic benefit to the truck operators to install and maintain such systems (which would be vandalism magnets). Alas, the benefit appears to only accrue to everyone but the ones who would have to pay for it. On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 12:34?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1h_XCaL_f0 > > This is one terrific idea. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 13 18:38:08 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:38:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> Is this cool or what? Elon is on his game, ja? https://www.kxnet.com/video/mechanical-spacex-arms-catch-starship-rocket-booster-back-at-the-launch-pad/10126796/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:19:15 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 12:19:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Elon does not like power satellites, but he is enabling them. Keith PS Catching the rocket with arms is new, but everyone who read SF long ago knew that rockets should land tail first. On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 11:39?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Is this cool or what? Elon is on his game, ja? > > > > https://www.kxnet.com/video/mechanical-spacex-arms-catch-starship-rocket-booster-back-at-the-launch-pad/10126796/ > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:31:52 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 12:31:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <96a20b2c-898b-96df-bd5f-98dd467f1658@disroot.org> References: <01e6fda9-d392-46f4-886f-5eecb478ffa3@zaiboc.net> <96a20b2c-898b-96df-bd5f-98dd467f1658@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:18?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading > as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? It depends. If a high fraction of the population uploads, there will be a social collapse. At some point, the social system fails and the remaining people will move away from ghost towns. > I can easily see a future where some do, others don't, and that's that. > Personally, if the process was continuous, and I could have a robot > body, I have nothing against it, since I could always "terminate" myself > if I got bored with life. > > On the other hand, I'm perfectly fine with death as well, so uploading > or freezing is definitely not something I occupy my mind with, or am > actively seeking out. It is not for everyone. But for my own selfish reasons of having people from this era to socialize with, I encourage folks to consider cryonics. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 13 19:41:07 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 12:41:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson Sent: Sunday, 13 October, 2024 12:19 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] musk catches one >...Elon does not like power satellites, but he is enabling them. Keith >...PS Catching the rocket with arms is new, but everyone who read SF long ago knew that rockets should land tail first. The control system guys were talking about it back in the long time agos too. There were a lotta papers on it at the control freak conferences: a first stage with all those expensive boosters could be recovered that way, and might result in so little damage, the same first stage could be fueled up and fired again without extensive rework. Elon's multiple booster approach (33 methane burners) in the Starship turned out to be the right answer as well. The commies went down that road, while NASA went for the five biggies instead. That the 33 motors approach works best is a surprise to me, but if you do the reliability numbers, it is the way to go for private industry and profit-driven launch technology. Keith is this a great time to be alive or what? spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:42:58 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 20:42:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music again (Was: Re: what's the use?) In-Reply-To: References: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 at 18:15, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > That makes me wonder, can damage or change to some area improve it? > _______________________________________________ Well, maybe, sort of....... The term you need to investigate is neuroplasticity. It is fascinating! For people who lose a sense such as sight or hearing, the brain can rewire itself and use the redundant brain areas to enhance the remaining senses. It cannot replace the lost capability, but with training, it can help to compensate for the loss. A similar ability applies to brain damage, as some horrendous injuries show. The brain can reorganise and enable undamaged areas of the brain to take over functions previously performed by the damaged regions. This also requires training in the lost functions to assist the replacement. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:46:09 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 12:46:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music again (Was: Re: what's the use?) In-Reply-To: References: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 4:09?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: snip > Music and speech have some overlap in the brain regions involved. > A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area can indeed impair musical > ability, but not totally eliminate it, as Broca's area is involved in > both language and music. The example Sacks cited (from memory) was a total wipeout. A woman violist (IRRC) woke up one day with her musical ability completely gone. It was a total mystery for some time until she had an MRI of her brain which showed the dead stroke area. As I recall, she never recovered any musical ability. Keith > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:54:26 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 12:54:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:10?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > Yes, I think that forking, and clones + merges are interesting concepts > which could perhaps be thought of as "children" in a way, in that remote > future. I don't think copies will be permitted in the future. Think we have a population problem now? Doubles in 15 years. Imagine doubling in 15 minutes. If you upload, your physical body will have to be inactive. Exceptions might be granted for copies leaving the solar system. Keith From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:00:57 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 14:00:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The commies were trying to do 30+ engines with strictly analog plumbing, not to mention QA standards somewhere between "ok" and "yikes". I strongly suspect there's a fair bit of electronics managing those engines that the Russians couldn't even have imagined at the time. The lesson of SpaceX, more than anything else, is that real-time high-powered computers can make systems controls do almost anything. On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 1:42?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Henson > Sent: Sunday, 13 October, 2024 12:19 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: Re: [ExI] musk catches one > > >...Elon does not like power satellites, but he is enabling them. > > Keith > > >...PS Catching the rocket with arms is new, but everyone who read SF > long ago knew that rockets should land tail first. > > > > > > The control system guys were talking about it back in the long time agos > too. There were a lotta papers on it at the control freak conferences: a > first stage with all those expensive boosters could be recovered that way, > and might result in so little damage, the same first stage could be fueled > up and fired again without extensive rework. > > Elon's multiple booster approach (33 methane burners) in the Starship > turned out to be the right answer as well. The commies went down that > road, while NASA went for the five biggies instead. That the 33 motors > approach works best is a surprise to me, but if you do the reliability > numbers, it is the way to go for private industry and profit-driven launch > technology. > > Keith is this a great time to be alive or what? > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:00:51 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 13:00:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <182c0c1e-630f-a8e2-a069-21026b56ef29@disroot.org> References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <182c0c1e-630f-a8e2-a069-21026b56ef29@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:12?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > > > post-birth growth) a number of families stuck it out until a child was > > born, then moved back into the more attractive spirit world tata to > > raise the child. > > > > (end quote) > > Another thought, without birth and death, could there be an increased risk > of stagnation? Possible. If they are aliens and if the AI estimates of how long they have been in space are correct, whatever is around Tabby's star might have reached that state Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 13 20:07:22 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 13:07:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat ? >?The lesson of SpaceX, more than anything else, is that real-time high-powered computers can make systems controls do almost anything. Darin, I am hetero to the core, but oooh, that is some sexy talk there, me lad. Ja, your comment is right on, and I agree, thanks for the observation. Modern digital control systems require a lotta lotta computer speed and feedback instrument bandwidth. We have made great progress on it all. There is something else I think is important in why Musk is making this business fly better than anyone: he recognizes that the subcontractors need to be right there in the neighborhood. It makes the whole process more efficient. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 13 20:11:55 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:11:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Music again (Was: Re: what's the use?) In-Reply-To: References: <8ef4c522-185a-4816-bc32-6108f6d73cca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <55fc83f3-0701-18b2-4b99-9d222039d853@disroot.org> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 at 18:15, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> That makes me wonder, can damage or change to some area improve it? >> _______________________________________________ > > > Well, maybe, sort of....... > The term you need to investigate is neuroplasticity. It is fascinating! > > For people who lose a sense such as sight or hearing, the brain can > rewire itself and use the redundant brain areas to enhance the > remaining senses. It cannot replace the lost capability, but with > training, it can help to compensate for the loss. > A similar ability applies to brain damage, as some horrendous injuries > show. The brain can reorganise and enable undamaged areas of the brain > to take over functions previously performed by the damaged regions. > This also requires training in the lost functions to assist the > replacement. > > BillK Fascinating! From my friendly neighbourhood AI, so beware of hallucinations and caveat emptor! Cases of Astonishing Capabilities Post-Brain Damage Acquired Savant Syndrome: Acquired savant syndrome refers to individuals who develop extraordinary abilities following a traumatic event affecting the brain. These abilities can manifest in various forms such as musical talent, mathematical skills, artistic prowess, or memory feats. A notable case is that of Alonzo Clemons, who suffered a severe head injury at a young age. Following his accident, he developed an exceptional ability to sculpt animals from memory with remarkable accuracy and detail. Musical Abilities: Another significant example involves individuals who have experienced strokes but subsequently demonstrate enhanced musical capabilities. For instance, Tony Cicoria, an orthopedic surgeon, was struck by lightning and subsequently developed an intense passion for playing the piano and composing music despite having no prior musical training. Research indicates that after such traumatic experiences, some individuals may access latent talents that were previously dormant. Mathematical Skills: There are also instances where individuals have gained advanced mathematical skills post-injury. One such case is that of Jason Padgett, who sustained a traumatic brain injury during an assault. Following this incident, he began to visualize complex mathematical concepts and could draw intricate fractals and geometric patterns. Enhanced Memory: Some studies suggest that after specific types of brain injuries?particularly those affecting the left hemisphere?individuals may experience heightened memory capabilities. This phenomenon has been observed in patients who develop eidetic memory (the ability to recall images with high precision) after their injuries. Mechanisms Behind Enhanced Capabilities The exact mechanisms behind these phenomena remain under investigation; however, several theories exist: Reorganization of Neural Pathways: Damage to one part of the brain may lead to increased activity in other regions responsible for similar functions. Increased Connectivity: Brain injuries might promote greater connectivity between different areas of the brain that were not previously engaged together. Unmasking Latent Abilities: The injury may remove inhibitions on certain cognitive functions that were not fully utilized before. Conclusion While cases of astonishing capabilities resulting from brain damage are rare and often anecdotal, they highlight the incredible potential of the human brain?s adaptability. These instances challenge our understanding of intelligence and skill development and underscore the complexity of neurological function. From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 13 20:14:50 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:14:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <182c0c1e-630f-a8e2-a069-21026b56ef29@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:12?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> > >> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: >> >>> post-birth growth) a number of families stuck it out until a child was >>> born, then moved back into the more attractive spirit world tata to >>> raise the child. >>> >>> (end quote) >> >> Another thought, without birth and death, could there be an increased risk >> of stagnation? > > Possible. If they are aliens and if the AI estimates of how long they > have been in space are correct, whatever is around Tabby's star might > have reached that state > > Keith Does makes one think about the possible "benefit" of death for the rejuvenation of the race. To take it one step further, perhaps something to be added to uploaded world? Imagine some kind of random mutation built in? Or perhaps, on long enough time scales, bit flips and radiation could provide that? From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:33:51 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 15:33:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] front view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's hear from a lawyer - way, way back in law school in my torts class, I learned that there were definite limits as to what you could do to protect yourself or your property. Having an intruder get a severe electric shock was a big no-no (could cause stroke or seizure). What's new in that area since 1965? bill w On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 12:19?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If only there was sufficient economic benefit to the truck operators to > install and maintain such systems (which would be vandalism magnets). > Alas, the benefit appears to only accrue to everyone but the ones who would > have to pay for it. > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 12:34?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1h_XCaL_f0 >> >> This is one terrific idea. >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:36:18 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 16:36:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] front view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: booby trapping is still illegal On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 4:35?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Let's hear from a lawyer - way, way back in law school in my torts class, > I learned that there were definite limits as to what you could do to > protect yourself or your property. Having an intruder get a severe > electric shock was a big no-no (could cause stroke or seizure). What's new > in that area since 1965? > > bill w > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 12:19?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If only there was sufficient economic benefit to the truck operators to >> install and maintain such systems (which would be vandalism magnets). >> Alas, the benefit appears to only accrue to everyone but the ones who would >> have to pay for it. >> >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 12:34?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1h_XCaL_f0 >>> >>> This is one terrific idea. >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 13 20:53:14 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 13:53:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d801db1db1$ecca9d40$c65fd7c0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] musk catches one From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat ? >>?The lesson of SpaceX, more than anything else, is that real-time high-powered computers can make systems controls do almost anything. >?Darin, I am hetero to the core, but oooh, that is some sexy talk there, me lad? spike My bride and I have been watching that booster catch. We both got so turned on, we needed to pause the video. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 13 21:19:47 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 14:19:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <00d801db1db1$ecca9d40$c65fd7c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> <00d801db1db1$ecca9d40$c65fd7c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00eb01db1db5$a2433080$e6c99180$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Cc: 'Darin Sunley' ; spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] musk catches one From: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: RE: [ExI] musk catches one From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat ? >>>?The lesson of SpaceX, more than anything else, is that real-time high-powered computers can make systems controls do almost anything. Darin >>?Darin, I am hetero to the core, but oooh, that is some sexy talk there, me lad? spike >?My bride and I have been watching that booster catch. We both got so turned on, we needed to pause the video. spike For those who get stoked by this sorta thing, there is some EXCELLENT control system porn on the interwebs today. There are good explanations for why it is that having your recovery stanchions forward is better than having landing feet (the impact stresses are in tension rather than compression and those heavy things up front move the CG forward and increase the booster?s moment of inertia, both factors making landing control easier.) Oh that whole thing just leaves me panting lustfully. Way to go, Musk! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 21:32:14 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 17:32:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 3:56?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:10?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Yes, I think that forking, and clones + merges are interesting concepts > > which could perhaps be thought of as "children" in a way, in that remote > > future. > > I don't think copies will be permitted in the future. Think we have a > population problem now? Doubles in 15 years. Imagine doubling in 15 > minutes. > Who's going to stop me? The cops? By the time they found out, there'd be too many of me to arrest - and any they don't catch, can just keep duplicating. Assuming it really does only take 15 minutes with negligible material and energy costs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Oct 14 10:22:43 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:22:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ff43992-c2c6-464c-9225-c66d5e939734@zaiboc.net> On 13/10/2024 20:41, Daniel wrote: > > > On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > >> post-birth growth) a number of families stuck it out until a child was >> born, then moved back into the more attractive spirit world tata to >> raise the child. >> >> (end quote) > > Another thought, without birth and death, could there be an increased > risk of stagnation? I think that this would be a new paradigm, and would need new concepts. Our current ideas, and psychology, are based on our biological evolution, and something like 'stagnation' makes sense in that light. After a few decades or centuries in which uploading is common, a different psychology and different ideas will inevitably emerge. What I'm saying is that "an increased risk of stagnation" could well have no meaning (as in, it doesn't actually mean anything rather than it means something that we disagree with, or reject), or mean something different to an upload than what it currently means to us, with its negative implication. Even so, from my current perspective, I'd still say "no", for a number of reasons. Birth plus death aren't the only drivers of change and development, both socially and individually, and probably aren't even the most significant ones. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Oct 14 10:29:53 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:29:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ffbbcdf-cf94-4fb0-afb4-db9e4d62a4c2@zaiboc.net> On 13/10/2024 20:41, Daniel wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > _______________________________________________ >> >> The search engines say that Keith's statement is too simplified and >> doesn't allow for the brain's complexity and the ability to recover >> from damage. >> (Not surprising, as it is only two short sentences). >> Without lengthy medical and psychology discussions, it would be best >> to rewrite the statement as - >> >> Music and speech have some overlap in the brain regions involved. >> A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area can indeed impair musical >> ability, but not totally eliminate it, as Broca's area is involved in >> both language and music. >> >> BillK > > That makes me wonder, can damage or change to some area improve it? Of course. That's what evolution is based on. OK, I know, we shouldn't use the word 'improve' when talking about evolution, but you know what I mean. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Oct 14 10:41:59 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:41:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5139072b-916e-4f9e-9145-56157031dc25@zaiboc.net> On 13/10/2024 20:41, Daniel wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > >> As with a number of other transhumanist-themed ideas, I think we have >> to be very careful of the language we use, because it can easily be >> misunderstood. >> >> The difference between "going biologically extinct" and "going >> extinct" is probably not going to be appreciated by most people. >> >> Can we come up with an alternative term or phrase that won't >> automatically make people hostile to the idea of uploading? >> >> I'm thinking about something that includes the idea of 'migration' >> rather than 'extinction'. Movement rather than death. >> >> Ben > > Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading > as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? You're thinking of after uploading is a thing. I'm thinking of how we make it a thing. I have no problem if someone doesn't want to upload when it's an option. I have a big problem with someone wanting to block the development of uploading. There are parallels with genetic engineering, as well as stem-cell research. If you want to decline to take advantages of the things a technology enables, no problem. But the development of these technologies has been greatly hindered by people who not only don't want it for themselves, but don't want anyone else to have it either. The perception of something before it exists has a much greater impact than the perception of it once it does exist. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Oct 14 10:55:29 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:55:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/10/2024 20:41, Keith Hensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:18?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: > snip > >> Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading >> as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? > It depends. If a high fraction of the population uploads, there will > be a social collapse. At some point, the social system fails and the > remaining people will move away from ghost towns. One thing nobody seems to consider is the possibility of uploading into a new artificial brain, in control of a synthetic body, instead of into a large, shared computing system. That way, there would still be physical people around in the physical world. They'd have the advantages of both situations, seeing as their new brains should be easily capable of connecting to computer systems and experiencing virtual worlds as well as the real world. Their 'ecological footprint' would probably be smaller than biological humans as well. I could see 'uploading to an android' being a popular option, and a lot less scary for some people than uploading to a server. It would also (potentially) solve the tricky problem of who owns and controls the hardware that your mind runs on. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Oct 14 10:57:37 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:57:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75ec42b0-2c45-4c6c-ba32-69a403340ccc@zaiboc.net> Apologies, Daniel at least thought of it: > Personally, if the process was continuous, and I could have a robot > body... Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 14 11:05:40 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 13:05:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <5139072b-916e-4f9e-9145-56157031dc25@zaiboc.net> References: <5139072b-916e-4f9e-9145-56157031dc25@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <88a085fb-6e12-23fe-3caf-ef1be30fb446@disroot.org> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 13/10/2024 20:41, Daniel wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > As with a number of other transhumanist-themed ideas, I think we have > to be very careful of the language we use, because it can easily be > misunderstood. > > The difference between "going biologically extinct" and "going > extinct" is probably not going to be appreciated by most people. > > Can we come up with an alternative term or phrase that won't > automatically make people hostile to the idea of uploading? > > I'm thinking about something that includes the idea of 'migration' > rather than 'extinction'. Movement rather than death. > > Ben > > > Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading > as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? > > > You're thinking of after uploading is a thing. I'm thinking of how we make it a thing. > > I have no problem if someone doesn't want to upload when it's an option. I have a big problem with someone wanting to block the > development of uploading. > > There are parallels with genetic engineering, as well as stem-cell research. If you want to decline to take advantages of the things > a technology enables, no problem. But the development of these technologies has been greatly hindered by people who not only don't > want it for themselves, but don't want anyone else to have it either. > > The perception of something before it exists has a much greater impact than the perception of it once it does exist. > > Ben Ahh, got it. Yes, then it makes more sense, given the enormous amount of resistance to GMO, stem-cells etc. I was not aware of any such strong opinions about uploading, on the other hand, I would definitely not be surprised at all, if such resistance came into being. From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 14 11:08:19 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 13:08:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 13/10/2024 20:41, Keith Hensen wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:18?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: > snip > > Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading > as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? > It depends. If a high fraction of the population uploads, there will > be a social collapse. At some point, the social system fails and the > remaining people will move away from ghost towns. > > > One thing nobody seems to consider is the possibility of uploading into a new artificial brain, in control of a synthetic body, > instead of into a large, shared computing system. That way, there would still be physical people around in the physical world. They'd > have the advantages of both situations, seeing as their new brains should be easily capable of connecting to computer systems and > experiencing virtual worlds as well as the real world. Their 'ecological footprint' would probably be smaller than biological humans > as well. > > I could see 'uploading to an android' being a popular option, and a lot less scary for some people than uploading to a server. It > would also (potentially) solve the tricky problem of who owns and controls the hardware that your mind runs on. > > Ben I considered it in my post. ;) Also recently finished the book Software by Rudy Rucker where such themes are discussed. For me personally, uploading myself into a robot, would at least initially, be far more interesting and desirable, than uploading myself into some kind of mainframe fantasy land. Since the mind would be software anyway, I would expect to be able to "peak into" fantasy land if I so wished anyway (or the reverse). I could imagine that after a few 100 or 1000 years in the real world, maybe things would get boring, and the mainframe fantasyland might be were the story would end. Hence my previous post about stagnation possibly being a problem in such scenarios. I think we know too little about our brains at the moment, to address that question fully. From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 14 11:08:37 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 13:08:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <75ec42b0-2c45-4c6c-ba32-69a403340ccc@zaiboc.net> References: <75ec42b0-2c45-4c6c-ba32-69a403340ccc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <56068b80-a0c6-e66d-0ff7-75c9d89a5010@disroot.org> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > Apologies, Daniel at least thought of it: > > Personally, if the process was continuous, and I could have a robot > body... > > > Ben No worries! =) Best regards, Daniel From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 15:32:42 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 08:32:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 2:33?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 3:56?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:10?AM efc--- via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > Yes, I think that forking, and clones + merges are interesting concepts >> > which could perhaps be thought of as "children" in a way, in that remote >> > future. >> >> I don't think copies will be permitted in the future. Think we have a >> population problem now? Doubles in 15 years. Imagine doubling in 15 >> minutes. > > Who's going to stop me? The copy machines. > The cops? By the time they found out, there'd be too many of me to arrest - and any they don't catch, can just keep duplicating. Is this a good idea? Or should there be general agreement that it is a bad idea? Robin Hanson and I argued over this point years ago. His thought was that uploads would be copied till the value of whatever they could do fell to zero. I don't know how much economics will be a factor in the future, but if it is, doubling reduces your resources by half. Who gets the bank account and the wife? > Assuming it really does only take 15 minutes with negligible material and energy costs. In the uploaded state, another instance should take very little time and materials, but it reduces the computational resources per instance. If you can make a case for flooding with copies, I would like to read it. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 16:09:56 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 09:09:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> Message-ID: I discussed why people would have to upload into a shared simulation here. https://web.archive.org/web/20121130232045/http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/ A fast-thinking brain in an android body would be like a fly mired in honey. Keith On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 4:09?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On 13/10/2024 20:41, Keith Hensen wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:18?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > snip > > > > Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading > > as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? > > It depends. If a high fraction of the population uploads, there will > > be a social collapse. At some point, the social system fails and the > > remaining people will move away from ghost towns. > > > > > > One thing nobody seems to consider is the possibility of uploading into a new artificial brain, in control of a synthetic body, > > instead of into a large, shared computing system. That way, there would still be physical people around in the physical world. They'd > > have the advantages of both situations, seeing as their new brains should be easily capable of connecting to computer systems and > > experiencing virtual worlds as well as the real world. Their 'ecological footprint' would probably be smaller than biological humans > > as well. > > > > I could see 'uploading to an android' being a popular option, and a lot less scary for some people than uploading to a server. It > > would also (potentially) solve the tricky problem of who owns and controls the hardware that your mind runs on. > > > > Ben > > I considered it in my post. ;) Also recently finished the book Software by > Rudy Rucker where such themes are discussed. > > For me personally, uploading myself into a robot, would at least > initially, be far more interesting and desirable, than uploading myself > into some kind of mainframe fantasy land. > > Since the mind would be software anyway, I would expect to be able to > "peak into" fantasy land if I so wished anyway (or the reverse). > > I could imagine that after a few 100 or 1000 years in the real world, > maybe things would get boring, and the mainframe fantasyland might be were > the story would end. > > Hence my previous post about stagnation possibly being a problem in such > scenarios. I think we know too little about our brains at the moment, to > address that question fully._______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 16:11:48 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 12:11:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 11:33?AM Keith Henson wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 2:33?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 3:56?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:10?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > >> wrote: > >> > Yes, I think that forking, and clones + merges are interesting > concepts > >> > which could perhaps be thought of as "children" in a way, in that > remote > >> > future. > >> > >> I don't think copies will be permitted in the future. Think we have a > >> population problem now? Doubles in 15 years. Imagine doubling in 15 > >> minutes. > > > > Who's going to stop me? > > The copy machines. > Licensing restrictions might suffice to stop the general public, but that approach doesn't cut it for the people who are able to create their own copy machines - who may be statistically more likely than the general public to want to copy themselves. > > The cops? By the time they found out, there'd be too many of me to > arrest - and any they don't catch, can just keep duplicating. > > Is this a good idea? Or should there be general agreement that it is > a bad idea? To mangle a certain quote: "Good, bad, I'm the one with the copy machine." You saying that it is bad will do nothing to stop someone who has built their own copy machine from copying themselves. That is why I inquired about law enforcement, which is the usual method of enforcing ethics on those who refuse to behave in a manner that most people believe is ethical. Robin Hanson and I argued over this point years ago. His > thought was that uploads would be copied till the value of whatever > they could do fell to zero. > > I don't know how much economics will be a factor in the future, but if > it is, doubling reduces your resources by half. Who gets the bank > account and the wife? > If I was the one with the copy machine, I might want to make sure that most of my copies had a copy of my wife. She's a competent and trusted partner; she and I together are more capable than I alone. (Modulo my wife agreeing to it, of course, but we're talking mostly hypotheticals.) Bank account, though...well, first that depends on which copies survive free, if we are talking about a situation where society would frown on and try to arrest or erase any mass copying. After that, it gets to the purpose of having a copy. Just copying for the sake of copying is, as many fictional depictions have noted, usually a bad idea. "I want a copy of me" by itself is basically never the actual, complete motive. Some other approach than literal exact unlimited copying would produce a better result, but to get there it helps to better understand the motive. Among the common versions: * "...to do menial task X." A copy of you is an inferior solution to a labor droid. * "...to be my slave and do a bunch of menial tasks." Again, a copy of you is an inferior solution to a labor droid. * "...to do short-duration task Y that requires specialist knowledge/capability that only I have." A limited-lifespan version of you, that never has access to your resources save those needed to do that task and painlessly ceases existence once the task is done might be a superior solution. This is kind of a straight copy, except that you are willing to be either the one that goes on to live or the one that dedicates yourself just to that task. * "...to do an indefinite series of short-duration tasks that require specialist knowledge/capability that only I have." As above, but make a new copy for each task or small set of tasks. If it becomes a large set of tasks, to the point that repeatedly copying yourself for this purpose would be a burden, then a better solution would be to automate those tasks so that you are not required to actually perform them. If you're worried about job security, keep that automation under your strict control, but requiring a large amount of your time (copy or otherwise) to be spent over and over again is not the optimum solution. * "...so I can retire." This often reduces to the above case. Does the work that you are doing, still need to be done (whether as a source of income for you, or for any other reason), to a degree that would be a burden for you to keep doing it? If so, find some other way for it to get done while still fulfilling your needs. If the work does not need to be done, then find a way to stop doing it, which generally does not require a copy of you (in this sense, or in more traditional ones such as training someone else to replace you). * "...to be my child." For what end? Having a child is never an end in and of itself, despite great efforts of many to portray it that way. For many of the reasons why you would want a child, an altered version of you - who is clearly not you, and thus does not get your bank account (though you may give them a small fraction, from which they can grow their own resources) - is a better solution than a full, unaltered copy. > If you can make a case for flooding with copies, I would like to read it. > The best one off the top of my head is a survival situation: some external force (like law enforcement) is going to attempt to terminate or severely reduce my life, but I have enough forewarning to make a flood of copies. The likelihood that at least one will escape is much greater if there is far more than just one of me. This is a short-term solution, that usually involves me committing to terminate or obey if I wind up as an instance that did not live free so long as at least one other instance does live free, which I could perhaps do in the short term but not forever. It also requires an ability for, if multiple instances of me do wind up living free, those instances to come together to wind up with only one instance in the end. Some sort of merging (unforking) would be ideal, especially if there was a prospect of some instances being forced to exist in subpar conditions (such as prison) for long durations before the merged free instance had a chance to merge them or otherwise deal with them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 14 16:35:46 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 09:35:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <00eb01db1db5$a2433080$e6c99180$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> <00d801db1db1$ecca9d40$c65fd7c0$@rainier66.com> <00eb01db1db5$a2433080$e6c99180$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b801db1e57$1f52f500$5df8df00$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat ? >>>>?The lesson of SpaceX, more than anything else, is that real-time high-powered computers can make systems controls do almost anything. Darin >>>?Darin, I am hetero to the core, but oooh, that is some sexy talk there, me lad? spike >>?My bride and I have been watching that booster catch. We both got so turned on, we needed to pause the video. spike >?For those who get stoked by this sorta thing, there is some EXCELLENT control system porn on the interwebs today. ?spike I was talking to a former colleague and longtime friend yesterday about that SpaceX booster catch. He too has been completely absorbed watching that and the related control system porn, a genre of time-waster spawned by that sexy act of catching a tail-first descending booster. He made an interesting observation, or prediction: within a decade, NASA and other countries which build rocket boosters will all build something that looks like what Elon just demonstrated is possible. Rocket scientists everywhere will use that as proof that it can be done, but argue that they cannot rely on SpaceX, because there is a threat the US government will shut down Elon Musk for taking sides against them politically. Result: every country will develop a system that looks similar to Elon?s Starship. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 17:06:10 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:06:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <00b801db1e57$1f52f500$5df8df00$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> <00d801db1db1$ecca9d40$c65fd7c0$@rainier66.com> <00eb01db1db5$a2433080$e6c99180$@rainier66.com> <00b801db1e57$1f52f500$5df8df00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yea, the catch was the best thing I've seen. but I've always been way more concerned about the starship, which is still a LONG way from even working, even while having to replace most all the tiles after every launch. I'm not seeing any evidence they are going to be able to catch a starship and turn around and immediately launch it, for quite some time. Even with the ablative layer underneath(must be replaced), and brand new very robust tiles on IFT 5, you could still see things burning through the hinges of those elonorons, and severe damage in other places. The starship is still a one and done piece of machine, it seems to me. @spike, you know a lot more about this kind of thing, please convince me I'm wrong about this. On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 10:36?AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *?* > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >>>>?The lesson of SpaceX, more than anything else, is that real-time > high-powered computers can make systems controls do almost anything. Darin > > > > >>>?Darin, I am hetero to the core, but oooh, that is some sexy talk > there, me lad? spike > > > > >>?My bride and I have been watching that booster catch. We both got so > turned on, we needed to pause the video. spike > > > > >?For those who get stoked by this sorta thing, there is some EXCELLENT > control system porn on the interwebs today. ?spike > > > > > > I was talking to a former colleague and longtime friend yesterday about > that SpaceX booster catch. He too has been completely absorbed watching > that and the related control system porn, a genre of time-waster spawned by > that sexy act of catching a tail-first descending booster. > > > > He made an interesting observation, or prediction: within a decade, NASA > and other countries which build rocket boosters will all build something > that looks like what Elon just demonstrated is possible. Rocket scientists > everywhere will use that as proof that it can be done, but argue that they > cannot rely on SpaceX, because there is a threat the US government will > shut down Elon Musk for taking sides against them politically. Result: > every country will develop a system that looks similar to Elon?s Starship. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 18:03:10 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:03:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 9:12?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 11:33?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> snip I find your reasons for making copies unpersuasive. A copy would be like you including desires. >> >> If you can make a case for flooding with copies, I would like to read it. > > > The best one off the top of my head is a survival situation: some external force (like law enforcement) is going to attempt to terminate or severely reduce my life, but I have enough forewarning to make a flood of copies. The likelihood that at least one will escape is much greater if there is far more than just one of me. Now you have a world full of copies. > This is a short-term solution, that usually involves me committing to terminate or obey if I wind up as an instance that did not live free so long as at least one other instance does live free, which I could perhaps do in the short term but not forever. It also requires an ability for, if multiple instances of me do wind up living free, those instances to come together to wind up with only one instance in the end. Some sort of merging (unforking) would be ideal, especially if there was a prospect of some instances being forced to exist in subpar conditions (such as prison) for long durations before the merged free instance had a chance to merge them or otherwise deal with them. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 18:10:05 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 14:10:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <5c4a0730-2aec-c18d-b89e-bbcc3ecd1c39@disroot.org> <76412d48-8bf3-3dbd-cc29-0fdd0537028a@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 2:03?PM Keith Henson wrote: > I find your reasons for making copies unpersuasive. A copy would be > like you including desires. > Your copies, or my copies? My copies would copy my desires, not yours. I could do the collective-for-only-one-survivor thing, for a short term. I know there are others who could do it much longer than I. The world is not full of people who are only like you. On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 9:12?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 11:33?AM Keith Henson > wrote: > >> If you can make a case for flooding with copies, I would like to read > it. > > > > The best one off the top of my head is a survival situation: some > external force (like law enforcement) is going to attempt to terminate or > severely reduce my life, but I have enough forewarning to make a flood of > copies. The likelihood that at least one will escape is much greater if > there is far more than just one of me. > > Now you have a world full of copies. > If the threat doesn't come or was much less than expected, perhaps. It's the old K-selected/r-selected thing, going back long before humanity. If I need to go r-selected for a bit to reproduce exactly myself to ensure my survival, sure. Fortunately, while I can imagine such a scenario, the likelihood of it actually coming to pass within the foreseeable future (even rather extending that span of time to include a time when such copying becomes feasible) seems small. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 14 18:25:19 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:25:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <006e01db1d9f$0d3256d0$27970470$@rainier66.com> <007801db1da7$d9aab970$8d002c50$@rainier66.com> <008801db1dab$84684280$8d38c780$@rainier66.com> <00d801db1db1$ecca9d40$c65fd7c0$@rainier66.com> <00eb01db1db5$a2433080$e6c99180$@rainier66.com> <00b801db1e57$1f52f500$5df8df00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014701db1e66$6d028220$47078660$@rainier66.com> From: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] musk catches one >?Yea, the catch was the best thing I've seen. but I've always been way more concerned about the starship, which is still a LONG way from even working, even while having to replace most all the tiles after every launch. I'm not seeing any evidence they are going to be able to catch a starship and turn around and immediately launch it, for quite some time. Even with the ablative layer underneath(must be replaced), and brand new very robust tiles on IFT 5, you could still see things burning through the hinges of those elonorons, and severe damage in other places. The starship is still a one and done piece of machine, it seems to me. >... at spike, you know a lot more about this kind of thing, please convince me I'm wrong about this. Brent you are right that some structural stuff burned away. The expensive stuff includes the multiple boosters and the turbo equipment needed to pressurize the fuel. What I don?t know (but would like to know) is if the outer shell with control surface is quickly removeable, designed to where the critical stuff inside is a unit while the outer part is as replaceable as a condom. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 14 20:32:10 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 22:32:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> Message-ID: <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> I see no reason why you could not slow processes down to adapt to the real world, if that is your focus. On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > I discussed why people would have to upload into a shared simulation here. > > https://web.archive.org/web/20121130232045/http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/ > > A fast-thinking brain in an android body would be like a fly mired in honey. > > > Keith > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 4:09?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> >>> On 13/10/2024 20:41, Keith Hensen wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:18?AM efc--- via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>> snip >>> >>> Why do you think hostility will be a problem when it comes to uploading >>> as long as it is a voluntary procedure that will not affect anyone else? >>> It depends. If a high fraction of the population uploads, there will >>> be a social collapse. At some point, the social system fails and the >>> remaining people will move away from ghost towns. >>> >>> >>> One thing nobody seems to consider is the possibility of uploading into a new artificial brain, in control of a synthetic body, >>> instead of into a large, shared computing system. That way, there would still be physical people around in the physical world. They'd >>> have the advantages of both situations, seeing as their new brains should be easily capable of connecting to computer systems and >>> experiencing virtual worlds as well as the real world. Their 'ecological footprint' would probably be smaller than biological humans >>> as well. >>> >>> I could see 'uploading to an android' being a popular option, and a lot less scary for some people than uploading to a server. It >>> would also (potentially) solve the tricky problem of who owns and controls the hardware that your mind runs on. >>> >>> Ben >> >> I considered it in my post. ;) Also recently finished the book Software by >> Rudy Rucker where such themes are discussed. >> >> For me personally, uploading myself into a robot, would at least >> initially, be far more interesting and desirable, than uploading myself >> into some kind of mainframe fantasy land. >> >> Since the mind would be software anyway, I would expect to be able to >> "peak into" fantasy land if I so wished anyway (or the reverse). >> >> I could imagine that after a few 100 or 1000 years in the real world, >> maybe things would get boring, and the mainframe fantasyland might be were >> the story would end. >> >> Hence my previous post about stagnation possibly being a problem in such >> scenarios. I think we know too little about our brains at the moment, to >> address that question fully._______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 22:05:26 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 23:05:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 at 21:34, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > I see no reason why you could not slow processes down to adapt to the real > world, if that is your focus. > ------------------------------------------------- True, you could, but in practice you never would. Why choose to live at 1,000 times slower than in the upload world? You would miss out on so much, even just dipping into the real world for a few days. BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Oct 15 07:36:00 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 08:36:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0075be04-4158-47c2-acc3-489275b55a9b@zaiboc.net> On 14/10/2024 19:25, Keith Henson wrote: > I discussed why people would have to upload into a shared simulation here. > > https://web.archive.org/web/20121130232045/http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/ > > A fast-thinking brain in an android body would be like a fly mired in honey. Yes, of course. But I think you're stating it backwards. I'd say that people who want to think fast would need to upload to a shared simulation, not that uploads would have to think fast. Obviously there are advantages to thinking fast, but it's still a choice, not a natural law. Think of a grid, with two axes: thinking speed (fast/slow) and uploaded (yes/no). The fast-thinking uploads would be in the data centres, the slow-thinking non-uploads already exist (us as we are now), the slow-thinking uploads would be the androids, and the fast-thinking non-uploads box would be empty because they don't and can't exist. A consequence of this is that the androids would be separated from the fast virtual worlds and their inhabitants just as much as biologicals (but there's no reason that slow shared virtual worlds couldn't be created. We've already seen their predecessors (Second Life, etc.). There would also be slow personal virtual worlds (which is basically what we call imagination, but could be so much more vivid and extensive)). I know you're probably going to say there are good economic and political reasons that would compel faster and faster thinking, but as I say, these don't equate to natural law. Maybe in the long run, everyone would be a fast thinker in a data centre (in the long run it might become necessary to dismantle a lot of planets. I wonder if Tabby's star has any planets?), but in the short-term, I think having the choice would be not only a good thing in itself, but would potentially help the development of uploading technology, if not from a technological perspective, then certainly from a sociological one. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 15 08:28:35 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 at 21:34, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> I see no reason why you could not slow processes down to adapt to the real >> world, if that is your focus. >> ------------------------------------------------- > > True, you could, but in practice you never would. > Why choose to live at 1,000 times slower than in the upload world? > You would miss out on so much, even just dipping into the real world > for a few days. > Well, people are different. Some might, some might not. Unless upload is forced, I don't really see the point of the question, since it will answer itself eventually. My _personal_ opinion is that I would enjoy the living in the real world, seeing real, physical achievements, perhaps keeping in touch with non-uploaded people, helping move non-uploaded humanity forward etc. When I'm "bored" with it, I can then either terminate myself, or upload myself to an semi-infinite and permanent happyland and live in my own creation endlessly stimulating my pleasure circuits. ;) Jokes aside, I think it would probably feel more dignified to just terminate when I feel I'm done. From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 15 08:30:23 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:30:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: <0075be04-4158-47c2-acc3-489275b55a9b@zaiboc.net> References: <0075be04-4158-47c2-acc3-489275b55a9b@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <97038060-bde5-fe4f-9eba-240e61ddaff3@disroot.org> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > I know you're probably going to say there are good economic and > political reasons that would compel faster and faster thinking, but as > I say, these don't equate to natural law. Maybe in the long run, > everyone would be a fast thinker in a data centre (in the long run it > might become necessary to dismantle a lot of planets. I wonder if > Tabby's star has any planets?), but in the short-term, I think having > the choice would be not only a good thing in itself, but would > potentially help the development of uploading technology, if not from > a technological perspective, then certainly from a sociological one. I'm with you on this one. Better formulated than my previous message. From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 09:10:10 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:10:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 09:30, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well, people are different. Some might, some might not. Unless upload is > forced, I don't really see the point of the question, since it will answer > itself eventually. > > My _personal_ opinion is that I would enjoy the living in the real world, > seeing real, physical achievements, perhaps keeping in touch with > non-uploaded people, helping move non-uploaded humanity forward etc. > > When I'm "bored" with it, I can then either terminate myself, or upload > myself to an semi-infinite and permanent happyland and live in my own > creation endlessly stimulating my pleasure circuits. ;) > > Jokes aside, I think it would probably feel more dignified to just > terminate when I feel I'm done. > _______________________________________________ Yes, Uploading won't be forced. Unless there is a societal collapse, so that non-uploaded humanity finds survival to be more and more difficult due to population reduction. I don't see the uploads as a static population living in 'happy-land'. :) Due to much faster processing, they will evolve rapidly and become alien to non-uploaded humanity. Communication between real world and uploads will be impossible. Later uploads will need special procedures before they can be merged into the rapidly evolving upload society. We can't know what challenges and tasks will engage this alien society. Think of them as humanity after thousands of years of advancement and exploration. The uploads see the real world as frozen and unchanging. BillK From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 15 09:17:19 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 11:17:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: <3f52d4d5-7ac1-79cc-cc7a-6d18b301f2f0@disroot.org> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 09:30, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Well, people are different. Some might, some might not. Unless upload is >> forced, I don't really see the point of the question, since it will answer >> itself eventually. >> >> My _personal_ opinion is that I would enjoy the living in the real world, >> seeing real, physical achievements, perhaps keeping in touch with >> non-uploaded people, helping move non-uploaded humanity forward etc. >> >> When I'm "bored" with it, I can then either terminate myself, or upload >> myself to an semi-infinite and permanent happyland and live in my own >> creation endlessly stimulating my pleasure circuits. ;) >> >> Jokes aside, I think it would probably feel more dignified to just >> terminate when I feel I'm done. >> _______________________________________________ > > > Yes, Uploading won't be forced. Unless there is a societal collapse, > so that non-uploaded humanity finds survival to be more and more > difficult due to population reduction. > > I don't see the uploads as a static population living in 'happy-land'. :) > Due to much faster processing, they will evolve rapidly and become > alien to non-uploaded humanity. Communication between real world and > uploads will be impossible. Later uploads will need special procedures > before they can be merged into the rapidly evolving upload society. > We can't know what challenges and tasks will engage this alien > society. Think of them as humanity after thousands of years of > advancement and exploration. > The uploads see the real world as frozen and unchanging. > That makes sense. I imagine that another feature would be "pause". Imagine you're an uploaded being performing experiments in the real world to advance science. Instead of having to wait a thousand years, subjective time, you could pause until the experiment is done, and start again. On the other hand, I imagine that this would end up having different beings running at different subjective times, some would build their own mind castles, some would seek community, others, let's say experimentalists, might want to pause due to constraints from the external world. From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 10:59:40 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 05:59:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: What does living in the real world at 1000 times the normal speed even mean? bill w On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 4:12?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 09:30, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Well, people are different. Some might, some might not. Unless upload is > > forced, I don't really see the point of the question, since it will > answer > > itself eventually. > > > > My _personal_ opinion is that I would enjoy the living in the real world, > > seeing real, physical achievements, perhaps keeping in touch with > > non-uploaded people, helping move non-uploaded humanity forward etc. > > > > When I'm "bored" with it, I can then either terminate myself, or upload > > myself to an semi-infinite and permanent happyland and live in my own > > creation endlessly stimulating my pleasure circuits. ;) > > > > Jokes aside, I think it would probably feel more dignified to just > > terminate when I feel I'm done. > > _______________________________________________ > > > Yes, Uploading won't be forced. Unless there is a societal collapse, > so that non-uploaded humanity finds survival to be more and more > difficult due to population reduction. > > I don't see the uploads as a static population living in 'happy-land'. :) > Due to much faster processing, they will evolve rapidly and become > alien to non-uploaded humanity. Communication between real world and > uploads will be impossible. Later uploads will need special procedures > before they can be merged into the rapidly evolving upload society. > We can't know what challenges and tasks will engage this alien > society. Think of them as humanity after thousands of years of > advancement and exploration. > The uploads see the real world as frozen and unchanging. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 11:15:15 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:15:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 12:02, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > What does living in the real world at 1000 times the normal speed even mean? bill w > _______________________________________________ It's a long story.... :) Try this for an introduction - Quote: With sufficient hardware parallelism, a simulated brain could thus in theory be made to run faster than a biological brain. Uploaded beings may therefore not only be more efficient, but also supposedly have a faster rate of subjective experience than biological brains (e.g. experiencing an hour of lifetime in a single second of real time). ---------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 13:06:46 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 08:06:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Bill K - before I get lost in Wikipedia, how about this: A person looks at the Mona Lisa for one second and has one idea. An uploaded mind looks at it for one second and has a thousand ideas. Is that accurate? bill w On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 6:17?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 12:02, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > What does living in the real world at 1000 times the normal speed even > mean? bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > It's a long story.... :) > Try this for an introduction - > > Quote: > With sufficient hardware parallelism, a simulated brain could thus in > theory be made to run faster than a biological brain. Uploaded beings > may therefore not only be more efficient, but also supposedly have a > faster rate of subjective experience than biological brains (e.g. > experiencing an hour of lifetime in a single second of real time). > ---------- > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 13:53:05 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:53:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: More accurate to say, the uploaded mind would have a lot more reflection and contemplation in that one second. Not literally 1,000 ideas, but that 1 idea gets much more refined and spawns sub-ideas. Actions get more measured and precise. Ever had to react because there was no time to think? Sped-up minds wouldn't, at least not for most of the same situations. Playing sports is closer to chess, to them. Boredom management is a problem when their entire physical existence is like that, but there are ways to handle that, especially with implanted telecommunications and other things the mind can be doing while the body slowly goes about its day. One example: I, in my current form, take about 20 minutes to shower and get dressed. I could perhaps optimize that - some of that time is spent contemplating what combination of colors I wish to wear that day, and there are some redundant motions - but let's say 5 minutes as a practical minimum. As a 1,000x accelerated mind, that would be 5,000 subjective minutes: nearly 3.5 subjective days. You can be fairly certain that only a small part of my bandwidth would be set to running the physical actions of getting cleaned and dressed to face the nearly 2 subjective years before it is time to sleep once more. (Though, given how sleep is tied into restoring and resetting the mind as much as its effects on the body, sleep schedules might well be different. A constant cycle of spending 1 minute awake then sleeping for half a minute - or more precisely, 57.6 seconds on then 28.8 seconds off, working from subjective 16 hours then 8 hours - would likely not prove practical.) On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 9:08?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks, Bill K - before I get lost in Wikipedia, how about this: > > A person looks at the Mona Lisa for one second and has one idea. An > uploaded mind looks at it for one second and has a thousand ideas. Is that > accurate? bill w > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 6:17?AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 12:02, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > What does living in the real world at 1000 times the normal speed even >> mean? bill w >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> It's a long story.... :) >> Try this for an introduction - >> >> Quote: >> With sufficient hardware parallelism, a simulated brain could thus in >> theory be made to run faster than a biological brain. Uploaded beings >> may therefore not only be more efficient, but also supposedly have a >> faster rate of subjective experience than biological brains (e.g. >> experiencing an hour of lifetime in a single second of real time). >> ---------- >> >> BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 14:48:38 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 15:48:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Two identical humanoid robots race - sneakers v barefoot Message-ID: Watch: Sneaker-wearing humanoid beats barefoot bot on Gobi fun run By Paul Ridden October 15, 2024 Quote: A few months back, China's Robot Era demonstrated the strolling capabilities of its XBot-L humanoid by setting it loose on the Great Wall of China. Now the company has released video footage of two flagship Star1 models racing through the Gobi Desert. The company reports that the sneaker-clad humanoid started late but quickly caught its opponent before taking the lead, running at 3.6 meters per second (8 mph) for 34 minutes. ------- BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 19:32:16 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:32:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: <491108ba-e125-8737-b30f-d7380a464a2d@disroot.org> <1aeba6ed-1327-5cb4-08bc-3e733cce60e5@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 2:11?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: snip > Yes, Uploading won't be forced. Unless there is a societal collapse, > so that non-uploaded humanity finds survival to be more and more > difficult due to population reduction. Uploading requires nanotech or something like it. So people who don't upload should not have a problem with anything they need. But social isolation is another problem. In a massive population crash driven by uploading, I suspect the cities will be abandoned in favor of smaller places. That's discussed in the clinic seed, but it is off line right now. > I don't see the uploads as a static population living in 'happy-land'. :) > Due to much faster processing, they will evolve rapidly and become > alien to non-uploaded humanity. Communication between real world and > uploads will be impossible. Later uploads will need special procedures > before they can be merged into the rapidly evolving upload society. > We can't know what challenges and tasks will engage this alien > society. Think of them as humanity after thousands of years of > advancement and exploration. > The uploads see the real world as frozen and unchanging. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Oct 16 11:17:49 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 12:17:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this plan (I'm assuming something must be wrong with it, because it's such a simple idea, but I've never heard of it being used)? For every email account you have, you get a 'dark' twin account, the address of which is never published (something like "bensemaildark at bensdomain.etc", paired with "bensemail at bensdomain.etc". In fact, you don't even need to know it yourself).? This means that nobody will ever send an email to that address - except for spammers.? Incoming mail to both accounts is hashed, the hashes compared between the two accounts, and any matches indicate spam, which can be deleted from the 'real' account on the server, before it even gets to your local inbox. The only downside I can see is the extra processing needed on the mail server.? If that seems likely to be a problem, it could be implemented locally, and the overhead is yours, not the providers. Spam would get downloaded, then immediately deleted, so at least you wouldn't see it. There might be a problem with the hash function, if spam varies according to the email address it goes to, but even if this is a thing, it's not unsurmountabe. Any thoughts? Ben From efc at disroot.org Wed Oct 16 13:48:46 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 15:48:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> References: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this plan (I'm assuming something > must be wrong with it, because it's such a simple idea, but I've never > heard of it being used)? > > For every email account you have, you get a 'dark' twin account, the > address of which is never published (something like > "bensemaildark at bensdomain.etc", paired with "bensemail at bensdomain.etc". > In fact, you don't even need to know it yourself).? This means that > nobody will ever send an email to that address - except for spammers.? > Incoming mail to both accounts is hashed, the hashes compared between > the two accounts, and any matches indicate spam, which can be deleted > from the 'real' account on the server, before it even gets to your local > inbox. > > The only downside I can see is the extra processing needed on the mail > server.? If that seems likely to be a problem, it could be implemented > locally, and the overhead is yours, not the providers. Spam would get > downloaded, then immediately deleted, so at least you wouldn't see it. > > There might be a problem with the hash function, if spam varies > according to the email address it goes to, but even if this is a thing, > it's not unsurmountabe. > > Any thoughts? > > Ben Well, if the address is never published, how would spammers send emails to it? I don't think they generate random combinations of recipients per domain. Usually their targets emails come from web scraping, leaked password files (where your email is present as a login), and some times some common guesses per domain such as "info, hello, sales" etc. On the other hand, if you made sure that _both_ email addresses are present in a lot of spammy places and lists, so that all spammers send their emails to both accounts, while your friends only have _one_ account, I could see this working somewhat, based on the condition that the spammers do hit both accounts when they send out their messages. Other ways I've heard about to fight spam is just white listing + an active response required. The idea is that everything is blacklisted except your friends. If someone sends an email, they get an automated response along the lines of: "Hello, I get a lot of spam, so in order to reach my white list, please solve this simple equation and submit the result through this link." If they do, they get white listed or you atleast get the choice of doing it. The idea is of course that few spammers are interested enough in adding only one email to their repository, to actually go through that process. You could have other challenges such as "send me another email within 4 minutes to get white listed" built on the idea that the spammers aren't sitting and monitoring live when sending out, but sit back and collect all the answers after their account. Finally, I'm not so sure spam is that big of a problem. I get perhaps 1 spam message every 5 or 6 months, and I can live with that. _But_, I'm extremely careful where I register and show my email address, so that is probably a big contributing factor. Best regards, Daniel From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:55:30 2024 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 09:55:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> References: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 7:20 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Incoming mail to both accounts is hashed, the hashes compared between > the two accounts, and any matches indicate spam, which can be deleted > from the 'real' account on the server, before it even gets to your local > inbox. > When i worked for a spammy marketer we encoded identifying information in the links, so your "hash" would have to be pretty complex to account for variations that you don't really want to consider different. Also, why would I send to both your addresses? At this point you'd probably have better results training an AI secretary to read all your mail and save you the hassle of dealing with any of it. I don't do this myself because the volume of what lands in my inbox is low enough that i swipe away the obvious spam without even opening it Are you really dealing with enough spam that you'd need better countermeasures? I left the unsolicited email marketing business because it became increasingly difficult to get around anti-spam. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 14:42:27 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:42:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: References: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 9:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Finally, I'm not so sure spam is that big of a problem. I get perhaps 1 > spam message every 5 or 6 months, and I can live with that. _But_, I'm > extremely careful where I register and show my email address, so that is > probably a big contributing factor. > I have to show my email address in lots of places for business reasons. A dozen spam messages a day is typical - but GMail catches most of them in a Spam folder, where they can be mass-deleted unread (though I do have to skim the senders and subjects, because occasionally a non-spam message gets caught). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 15:25:10 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 11:25:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: References: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: If you use Gmail you can create a "dark" address for everything / everyone you give your address too. Simply add a "+label" at the end of your address before the @gmail. So if your email address is sam at gmail.com and you sign up at Walmart, you can give them sam+walmart at gmail.com and Gmail will still deliver the email to that address. Aside from filtering, it can also reveal who sells or leaks your email address to spammers. You could tell your friends to only email you at sam+priority at gmail.com to get automated priority/starred straight to your inbox, and have it function like a whitelist. (If you create a filter to handle such messages that way). Jason On Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 10:43 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 9:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Finally, I'm not so sure spam is that big of a problem. I get perhaps 1 >> spam message every 5 or 6 months, and I can live with that. _But_, I'm >> extremely careful where I register and show my email address, so that is >> probably a big contributing factor. >> > > I have to show my email address in lots of places for business reasons. A > dozen spam messages a day is typical - but GMail catches most of them in a > Spam folder, where they can be mass-deleted unread (though I do have to > skim the senders and subjects, because occasionally a non-spam message gets > caught). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Wed Oct 16 20:37:46 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 22:37:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: References: <691d1dfc-c35a-4b52-bedb-9af69065efda@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <040ac8ca-cd66-4a60-ad3b-c63f770d41ce@disroot.org> On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 9:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > Finally, I'm not so sure spam is that big of a problem. I get perhaps 1 > spam message every 5 or 6 months, and I can live with that. _But_, I'm > extremely careful where I register and show my email address, so that is > probably a big contributing factor. > > > I have to show my email address in lots of places for business reasons.? A dozen spam messages a day is typical - but GMail catches > most of them in a Spam folder, where they can be mass-deleted unread (though I do have to skim the senders and subjects, because > occasionally a non-spam message gets caught).? > Very strange. I also have business email, and that one is more exposed, but same level of spam applies. I use infomaniak as my email service provider. Maybe they are better than google? From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Oct 17 10:36:33 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 11:36:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <914b49d3-651c-4a87-8d8a-c1f60138a99f@zaiboc.net> OK, thanks for the responses. Personally, I don't get much spam, and it's easily spotted and removed. I just thought it might be worth reviving this old idea I had a few years ago but didn't do anything with (because I don't really have a spam problem). I guess the existing measures are good enough for most people. And I suppose if you're on the alert for spam, you're also more likely to catch other bad stuff that's far worse. Ben -- I'm a big fan of intelligent design. I think it's a great idea, and we should proceed with it as soon as possible. From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 13:50:41 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 09:50:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New anti-aging funding source: NOMIS Foundation Message-ID: https://www.science.org/content/article/infusing-new-energy-field-aging-research -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 15:20:28 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 16:20:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New anti-aging funding source: NOMIS Foundation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 at 14:53, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > https://www.science.org/content/article/infusing-new-energy-field-aging-research > _______________________________________________ >From the photo in the article, does this mean you have ambitions to skateboard into old age? :) (Without a helmet, even!). I see you can buy electric skateboards now. Top speed over 60 mph (ca. 97 km/h), suitable for commuting. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 15:31:51 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 11:31:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New anti-aging funding source: NOMIS Foundation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 11:22?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 at 14:53, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > https://www.science.org/content/article/infusing-new-energy-field-aging-research > > From the photo in the article, > does this mean you have ambitions to skateboard into old age? :) > (Without a helmet, even!). > Not I, but I wouldn't put it past Spike. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eleitl at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 15:37:03 2024 From: eleitl at gmail.com (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 17:37:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Oct 17 16:47:37 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 17:47:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/10/2024 19:41, BillK wrote: > Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic (the company that has developed > Claude AI) has written a paper that discusses the benefits that AI > could bring to the world over the next 5 to 10 years. I thought it was > rather impressive - assuming that the AI effects are beneficial. > Worth a read! > > BillK > > Well worth reading, I agree. On the whole I enjoyed it, but thought there was one glaring omission: Self-awareness (aka 'consciousness'). I get the impression that he prefers the term "powerful AI" over "AGI" because it gives him a chance to dodge this issue. But I don't think you can dodge it when talking about entities with the level of intelligence that he supposes. Especially as he says he's concerned about the dangers of AI. And no, the issue of Self-awareness in AI doesn't fall under the heading of 'science-fiction baggage', for the following reason: When an AI is capable of the kind of problem-solving he mentions, there's no avoiding the fact that it must develop and use some kind of Theory Of Mind ('TOM'). To interact sensibly with someone, you need to create a mental model that represents them, so you can remember who they are, distinguish them from other agents you interact with, assign preferences and personality characteristics to them, make predictions about them, and their interactions with other agents that you have models of (She thinks that he thinks, etc.), and so-on. Do that, and it's not long before your TOM system has to include another model, of yourself. Et voila: Self-awareness, by definition. (If you disagree with my equating Self-awareness and Consciousness, Ok, just forget about the C-word. We can manage fine without it). This intelligent biological machine remembers it happening to me when I was young. It was a real "AHA!!" moment. For me, at least, it was like waking up from a dream. I imagine it would have a similar impact on intelligent non-biological machines. Current AI systems saying things like "I think that...", really don't. It's fake, probably pre-programmed as a way to present information to people, or maybe just picked up from training data. Without TOM, you have no idea who 'you' are. The concept doesn't exist. But when you start using TOM, I don't see how it's not inevitable that you develop some kind of self-awareness, probably quite soon. Given all this, I find it bizarre that he can talk about such advanced, powerful AIs without addressing the idea that they will inevitably require TOM to function well, and so will inevitably 'wake up' and become self-aware. I know that that opens a totally separate, huge can of worms that he probably can't even begin to address in that article, but it does need to be addressed, and prepared for. Is there a way to avoid this? I can understand, if not agree with, people who want to. I can't think of any way to take advantage of TOM without it leading to self-awareness*. People cleverer than me (I know there are many!) might be able to. In any case, I think any avoidance would be only temporary, and we really do need to anticipate this happening at some point, in the probably-nearer-than-we-think future. Ben * One thing I just thought of was being able to control how strong, or detailed, the mental models of the various agents are. The problem there is that if you make the system incapable of making detailed models (so making sure its self-model is fuzzy), then you're deliberately crippling its effectiveness. Also, it might not make any real difference. It's still going to have a 'Me', just a vaguer one. -- I'm a big fan of intelligent design. I think it's a great idea, and we should proceed with it as soon as possible. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 19:34:50 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 20:34:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Teens use social media but not books or wider internet Message-ID: I've just read an article that claims that younger teens that have grown up with social media all their lives don't feel the need for anything outside social media. There are always exceptions, of course, but this claim is for the majority. I asked an AI to comment and it agreed that teens are now avoiding books or searching the internet for information. BillK AI Quotes: The rise of social media platforms such as TikTok, Snapchat, and YouTube has significantly transformed how younger teens engage with content. Recent studies indicate that younger teens are increasingly spending time on platforms that prioritize curated content. For instance, TikTok?s algorithm is designed to present users with a continuous stream of videos tailored to their interests based on previous interactions. This feature can lead to a more passive consumption experience as users may find themselves scrolling through an endless feed without actively seeking out specific content. The algorithms employed by these platforms play a crucial role in shaping user behavior. The curated nature of content means that younger teens are less likely to encounter diverse viewpoints or engage critically with different types of media. Instead, they are presented with a narrow band of content that aligns closely with their past preferences. Moreover, Snapchat?s Discover feature curates news and entertainment content specifically for its audience, which can lead to passive consumption as users scroll through stories rather than actively searching for information or engaging in discussions about it. The psychological implications of passive consumption are significant. Studies suggest that passive media consumption can lead to decreased attention spans and lower levels of cognitive engagement. For younger teens who are still developing critical thinking skills, this shift towards passivity could hinder their ability to analyze information critically or engage in meaningful discussions about the content they consume. Furthermore, the instant gratification provided by these platforms can create a cycle where users seek quick entertainment rather than thoughtful engagement. As younger teens become accustomed to rapid-fire content delivery, they may lose interest in longer-form content that requires sustained attention and thought. ----------------------- From john at ziaspace.com Thu Oct 17 19:56:47 2024 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 19:56:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: <914b49d3-651c-4a87-8d8a-c1f60138a99f@zaiboc.net> References: <914b49d3-651c-4a87-8d8a-c1f60138a99f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Hi, > Personally, I don't get much spam, and it's easily spotted and removed. I > just thought it might be worth reviving this old idea I had a few years ago > but didn't do anything with (because I don't really have a spam problem). This solution has been around for ages, even in spite of Google making a big mess of it and having security issues because Google's too big and dumb to follow standards, even standards that've existed for decades longer than they have. However, some spammers have picked up on this and enough email address scrapers just remove the + and anything after it. It still helps, though. More than a decade ago I started doing something like this, but I create an actual address for each use. If I start getting spam at, say, john.coffeeshoponthecorner at whatever.com, which I'd've created and used only in one specific place ever, I know that that coffee shop was compromised or they shared my data. Large corporations like Oracle, Adobe, Amazon, Avid, Google, Microsoft and eBay have "shared", whether knowingly or via compromise, my email address with spammers. It has helped to reduce spam tremendously because I can turn off addresses when companies go out of business, become shitty, or simply don't care about security. > I guess the existing measures are good enough for most people. And I suppose > if you're on the alert for spam, you're also more likely to catch other bad > stuff that's far worse. Having run email servers since the '90s, I have some strong feeling about and some good experience with dealing with spam. The biggest problem is the webification of the Internet. You can get a domain and hosting, registered anonymousyly, hosted anonymously, with working reverse DNS, with anonymouns WHOIS information, with TLS certificates, DMARC and SPF, with practically no work at all, and so long as companies like Cloudflare, OVH and DigitalOcean will take your money and let you do whatever you want, with no real consequences and with complete anonymity, we'll have spam forever. They profit from this, and Google profits by people being afraid to have their email anywhere except the same cesspool where everyone else is, too. The Venn diagram of extropians and technical people has plenty of overlap, but spam and email is probably not a real interest of most people here. But if anyone is interested in spam and email stuff, particularly self-hosting email, I'm writing up some articles and would love feedback. If you're interested, contact me off-list :) John From efc at disroot.org Thu Oct 17 21:06:09 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Machines of Loving Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48f3dbe4-f103-8bda-6df2-60781108b854@disroot.org> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > On the whole I enjoyed it, but thought there was one glaring omission: > Self-awareness (aka 'consciousness'). > Yes!! I've been looking and asking for this as well, but haven't seen any interesting mainstream discussions around it. I think self-awareness and volition would be enormous milestones! Glorified chat bots, although currently useful for minor niche cases for me, are less interesting. Give me self-awareness and volition, and there you have something that will shake the world! From efc at disroot.org Thu Oct 17 21:09:49 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:09:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Teens use social media but not books or wider internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > I've just read an article that claims that younger teens that have > grown up with social media all their lives don't feel the need for > anything outside social media. > There are always exceptions, of course, but this claim is for the majority. > > I asked an AI to comment and it agreed that teens are now avoiding > books or searching the internet for information. > > BillK That reminds me of something I saw on the news several months ago. It was about a teacher in despair, because students now rely on chatbots for facts. So a student came to him with a "fact" from a chat bot that was obviously wrong, and the teacher tried to explain it, but the student had a greater trust in the chat bot, so thought the teacher was incompetent. When I teach, I also note the fact that many youngster don't like to think for themselves. The nr 1 request they have is that I should serve them tasks and puzzles with detailed instructions about how to solve them. I refuse, and instead like to sit down with them and gently guide them with questions about how to solve the problem, what unknowns they face, where they could go to find the unknowns they need to find the problem etc. I then recommend my students the book "How to solve it" by Polya, but I doubt anyone ever read it. ;) Of course there then are the bright and brilliant few, with an innate love of learning, but they take care of themselves, so from a teaching point of view, they do not represent a challenge. But those guys do give me the energy, that fuels me, when I try to get the rest of the class to learn. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 23:06:27 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 16:06:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a different view of why Trump. Look at where he is supported, it's places that are economically depressed or where people think they have a bleak future, This is due to a wired-in psychological trait that in the Stone Age was the first response to a resource crisis. Eventually, this leads to war against some outsider group or an attack on an identifiable subgroup. The problem is not so much Trump but the evolved psychological traits humans have. That humans have any such traits is a very difficult concept for people to understand Keith On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 3:44?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > First past the post voting and the electoral college are both horrible, yes. > > None of your reasons are what I mentioned. Nobody cares what Trump will do, they care that he?s not the old political elite oligarchy and that he criticizes it. That?s it. Without that he would be exactly the same as any other Republican. I have tried to explain this to you numerous times. It?s not about policy, so if you want to understand, please listen. Giulio and Dylan have explained well too. > > Intelligence is not the issue. Some people believe the bog standard Republican promises Trump makes, and some don?t. That?s not why he is popular, and it?s why people don?t care when he breaks promises. Because they aren?t voting for his policies. They are voting as a vote of exasperation and spite against the political establishment that lies in a much more insidious and long-term way. The fix is simple, just have a Democrat run who criticizes political elites. But it isn?t happening, because the party won?t allow it, as seen with Bernie. > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 6:08?PM John Clark wrote: >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:16?AM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >>> > I would prefer a third party, >> >> >> I would prefer that too but thanks to the screwy electoral college system it's virtually impossible to have 3 political parties in which any of the 3 has a real chance of winning the presidency, the best you could have is 2 real candidates plus a spoiler candidate who has no chance of winning but can change which of the 2 real candidates wins. The dreadful electoral college system is made even worse because nearly all the states have adopted a winner take all approach, if somebody gets 50.1% of the popular vote in a state then they get 100% of the real votes, the only votes that matter, the electoral votes; even if 49.9% of the people in a state vote for a candidate he gets none of the 270 votes needed to win. >> >> And Will, I don't know if your reasons for Trump's popularity among white lower middle class men is correct but if it is you certainly don't paint a very flattering portrait of the intelligence of that particular political electorate: >> >> 1) Trump is something new: >> >> Kamala Harris has never been president and like all vice presidents she never had much power, but Donald Trump has been president for four years and he bungled the job to a job dropping degree! >> >> 2) Trump will do better on beating inflation: >> >> Trump wants to drastically cut the taxes on billionaires and pay for that by imposing huge new tariffs, which is equivalent to a national sales tax, which would affect the lower and middle class much much more than the upper class. The Wall Street Journal, a pro Trump newspaper, conducted the following survey of economists and this is what they found: >> >> Two-Thirds Of Economists Think Inflation Would Be Worse Under Trump Than Harris >> >> And sixteen Nobel Prize winning economists signed a letter saying Trump's economic ideas were nonsense: >> >> Sixteen Nobel Economists Sign Letter About Risks to the U.S. Economy of a Second Trump Presidency >> >> 3) Trump wants to help the working man: >> >> Trump has always done his best to keep unions out of any of his companies, and just a few days ago we had Trump, a self-proclaimed billionaire, was giving a speech while the world's richest man was literally dancing around him while figuratively kissing Trump's ass. And this is the savior of the middle class?! >> >> Elon Musk captured jumping on stage at Trump rally >> >> 4) Trump will solve the most important problem facing the nation, illegal immigration: >> >> Ten or fifteen years from now people, or Mr. Jupiter Brain, will look back on the "vitally important" immigration problem and laugh. >> >> John K Clark >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1XzD%2BgTUje3t1qoE5jo72g9ZPFn%2BW%2BYvyuETnrq03A%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFh8trq_DLJY1YV6qaoWrq10%2BXJ5tQhvqng_qnSOoYf7A%40mail.gmail.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 01:22:44 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 18:22:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 4:27?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > Yes we know, you have said the same thing countless times but it?s still not a complete picture. And in fact I think it explains almost none of Trump. I am not surprised that you think in a way that denies evolved psychological traits. You miss the point, it's about the response of stressed people. Focusing on Trump is looking in the wrong direction. "Traits evolved in the EEA might apply to the current situation in the US. Consider the correlation between areas with poor economic prospects such as the Rust Belt and the current prevalence of xenophobic memes (or just crazy ones such as QAnon). If the root cause of the symptoms we see is the perception of a bleak future, is there anything we could do? The obvious thing is to improve economic conditions or at least the perception of them. By this model, the IRA went out of business because of improving income per capita. The major reason for this was that the Irish women cut the number of children they had from around 4 to replacement. With low or zero population growth, even small economic growth makes the future look brighter, population support for fighting diminished, and the IRA slowly went out of business. The present article might help people understand the evolutionary origins of certain types of behavior. The people who were caught up in events such as the Rwanda genocide or, more recently, the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol appear not to understand their own behavior. Simple as this model is, humans seem to have a (possibly evolved) bias against the understanding that they have or are influenced by evolved internal psychological mechanisms. In other words, too much insight may not be good for your genes." Keith > Trump ran in the primaries against double digit numbers of Republicans who were all just as xenophobic. And in fact unlike the rest of them Trump was a NYC Democrat. So that?s not what his allure is. > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 7:06?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> I have a different view of why Trump. >> >> Look at where he is supported, it's places that are economically >> depressed or where people think they have a bleak future, This is due >> to a wired-in psychological trait that in the Stone Age was the first >> response to a resource crisis. >> >> Eventually, this leads to war against some outsider group or an attack >> on an identifiable subgroup. >> >> The problem is not so much Trump but the evolved psychological traits >> humans have. >> >> That humans have any such traits is a very difficult concept for >> people to understand >> >> Keith >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 3:44?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> > >> > First past the post voting and the electoral college are both horrible, yes. >> > >> > None of your reasons are what I mentioned. Nobody cares what Trump will do, they care that he?s not the old political elite oligarchy and that he criticizes it. That?s it. Without that he would be exactly the same as any other Republican. I have tried to explain this to you numerous times. It?s not about policy, so if you want to understand, please listen. Giulio and Dylan have explained well too. >> > >> > Intelligence is not the issue. Some people believe the bog standard Republican promises Trump makes, and some don?t. That?s not why he is popular, and it?s why people don?t care when he breaks promises. Because they aren?t voting for his policies. They are voting as a vote of exasperation and spite against the political establishment that lies in a much more insidious and long-term way. The fix is simple, just have a Democrat run who criticizes political elites. But it isn?t happening, because the party won?t allow it, as seen with Bernie. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 6:08?PM John Clark wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:16?AM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> >> >>> > I would prefer a third party, >> >> >> >> >> >> I would prefer that too but thanks to the screwy electoral college system it's virtually impossible to have 3 political parties in which any of the 3 has a real chance of winning the presidency, the best you could have is 2 real candidates plus a spoiler candidate who has no chance of winning but can change which of the 2 real candidates wins. The dreadful electoral college system is made even worse because nearly all the states have adopted a winner take all approach, if somebody gets 50.1% of the popular vote in a state then they get 100% of the real votes, the only votes that matter, the electoral votes; even if 49.9% of the people in a state vote for a candidate he gets none of the 270 votes needed to win. >> >> >> >> And Will, I don't know if your reasons for Trump's popularity among white lower middle class men is correct but if it is you certainly don't paint a very flattering portrait of the intelligence of that particular political electorate: >> >> >> >> 1) Trump is something new: >> >> >> >> Kamala Harris has never been president and like all vice presidents she never had much power, but Donald Trump has been president for four years and he bungled the job to a job dropping degree! >> >> >> >> 2) Trump will do better on beating inflation: >> >> >> >> Trump wants to drastically cut the taxes on billionaires and pay for that by imposing huge new tariffs, which is equivalent to a national sales tax, which would affect the lower and middle class much much more than the upper class. The Wall Street Journal, a pro Trump newspaper, conducted the following survey of economists and this is what they found: >> >> >> >> Two-Thirds Of Economists Think Inflation Would Be Worse Under Trump Than Harris >> >> >> >> And sixteen Nobel Prize winning economists signed a letter saying Trump's economic ideas were nonsense: >> >> >> >> Sixteen Nobel Economists Sign Letter About Risks to the U.S. Economy of a Second Trump Presidency >> >> >> >> 3) Trump wants to help the working man: >> >> >> >> Trump has always done his best to keep unions out of any of his companies, and just a few days ago we had Trump, a self-proclaimed billionaire, was giving a speech while the world's richest man was literally dancing around him while figuratively kissing Trump's ass. And this is the savior of the middle class?! >> >> >> >> Elon Musk captured jumping on stage at Trump rally >> >> >> >> 4) Trump will solve the most important problem facing the nation, illegal immigration: >> >> >> >> Ten or fifteen years from now people, or Mr. Jupiter Brain, will look back on the "vitally important" immigration problem and laugh. >> >> >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1XzD%2BgTUje3t1qoE5jo72g9ZPFn%2BW%2BYvyuETnrq03A%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFh8trq_DLJY1YV6qaoWrq10%2BXJ5tQhvqng_qnSOoYf7A%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB6xytnRXvPAohAOJTXegWuy9cGOsWDmGRcpjyydAZeQLg%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyE5rrF5gXObBWZTNtouX_GSGfBFtEJVhPp-3nYBw1opTQ%40mail.gmail.com. From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 12:12:15 2024 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 08:12:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. Didn't think we'd ever hear from you again. How have you been? On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 11:38 AM Eugen Leitl via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 16:41:12 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 09:41:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:25?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > But what we are doing is trying to explain why people like Trump, and I am saying that your hypothesis is insufficient to explain his popularity. It?s certainly part of it, but I don?t think it?s all of it. If you have a more accurate way to account for the MAGA/Trump support being concentrated in the economically depressed areas of the country I will certainly be interested. Trump is in my opinion just an example of a class. I am sure you can fill in some of the others. The interesting question to me is why and when such people get support from the population. If evolved psychological traits related to war are too distasteful to contemplate, perhaps this might work to convince you that we have such traits. https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding Not that understanding evolutionary psychology is likely to do you any good. Keith > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 9:23?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 4:27?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> > >> > Yes we know, you have said the same thing countless times but it?s still not a complete picture. And in fact I think it explains almost none of Trump. >> >> I am not surprised that you think in a way that denies evolved >> psychological traits. You miss the point, it's about the response of >> stressed people. Focusing on Trump is looking in the wrong direction. >> >> "Traits evolved in the EEA might apply to the current situation in the >> US. Consider the correlation between areas with poor economic >> prospects such as the Rust Belt and the current prevalence of >> xenophobic memes (or just crazy ones such as QAnon). >> >> If the root cause of the symptoms we see is the perception of a bleak >> future, is there anything we could do? >> >> The obvious thing is to improve economic conditions or at least the >> perception of them. By this model, the IRA went out of business >> because of improving income per capita. The major reason for this was >> that the Irish women cut the number of children they had from around 4 >> to replacement. With low or zero population growth, even small >> economic growth makes the future look brighter, population support for >> fighting diminished, and the IRA slowly went out of business. >> >> The present article might help people understand the evolutionary >> origins of certain types of behavior. The people who were caught up in >> events such as the Rwanda genocide or, more recently, the Jan. 6 >> attack on the Capitol appear not to understand their own behavior. >> >> Simple as this model is, humans seem to have a (possibly evolved) bias >> against the understanding that they have or are influenced by evolved >> internal psychological mechanisms. In other words, too much insight >> may not be good for your genes." >> >> Keith >> >> > Trump ran in the primaries against double digit numbers of Republicans who were all just as xenophobic. And in fact unlike the rest of them Trump was a NYC Democrat. So that?s not what his allure is. >> > >> > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 7:06?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> >> >> I have a different view of why Trump. >> >> >> >> Look at where he is supported, it's places that are economically >> >> depressed or where people think they have a bleak future, This is due >> >> to a wired-in psychological trait that in the Stone Age was the first >> >> response to a resource crisis. >> >> >> >> Eventually, this leads to war against some outsider group or an attack >> >> on an identifiable subgroup. >> >> >> >> The problem is not so much Trump but the evolved psychological traits >> >> humans have. >> >> >> >> That humans have any such traits is a very difficult concept for >> >> people to understand >> >> >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 3:44?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> > >> >> > First past the post voting and the electoral college are both horrible, yes. >> >> > >> >> > None of your reasons are what I mentioned. Nobody cares what Trump will do, they care that he?s not the old political elite oligarchy and that he criticizes it. That?s it. Without that he would be exactly the same as any other Republican. I have tried to explain this to you numerous times. It?s not about policy, so if you want to understand, please listen. Giulio and Dylan have explained well too. >> >> > >> >> > Intelligence is not the issue. Some people believe the bog standard Republican promises Trump makes, and some don?t. That?s not why he is popular, and it?s why people don?t care when he breaks promises. Because they aren?t voting for his policies. They are voting as a vote of exasperation and spite against the political establishment that lies in a much more insidious and long-term way. The fix is simple, just have a Democrat run who criticizes political elites. But it isn?t happening, because the party won?t allow it, as seen with Bernie. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 6:08?PM John Clark wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:16?AM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> > I would prefer a third party, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I would prefer that too but thanks to the screwy electoral college system it's virtually impossible to have 3 political parties in which any of the 3 has a real chance of winning the presidency, the best you could have is 2 real candidates plus a spoiler candidate who has no chance of winning but can change which of the 2 real candidates wins. The dreadful electoral college system is made even worse because nearly all the states have adopted a winner take all approach, if somebody gets 50.1% of the popular vote in a state then they get 100% of the real votes, the only votes that matter, the electoral votes; even if 49.9% of the people in a state vote for a candidate he gets none of the 270 votes needed to win. >> >> >> >> >> >> And Will, I don't know if your reasons for Trump's popularity among white lower middle class men is correct but if it is you certainly don't paint a very flattering portrait of the intelligence of that particular political electorate: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1) Trump is something new: >> >> >> >> >> >> Kamala Harris has never been president and like all vice presidents she never had much power, but Donald Trump has been president for four years and he bungled the job to a job dropping degree! >> >> >> >> >> >> 2) Trump will do better on beating inflation: >> >> >> >> >> >> Trump wants to drastically cut the taxes on billionaires and pay for that by imposing huge new tariffs, which is equivalent to a national sales tax, which would affect the lower and middle class much much more than the upper class. The Wall Street Journal, a pro Trump newspaper, conducted the following survey of economists and this is what they found: >> >> >> >> >> >> Two-Thirds Of Economists Think Inflation Would Be Worse Under Trump Than Harris >> >> >> >> >> >> And sixteen Nobel Prize winning economists signed a letter saying Trump's economic ideas were nonsense: >> >> >> >> >> >> Sixteen Nobel Economists Sign Letter About Risks to the U.S. Economy of a Second Trump Presidency >> >> >> >> >> >> 3) Trump wants to help the working man: >> >> >> >> >> >> Trump has always done his best to keep unions out of any of his companies, and just a few days ago we had Trump, a self-proclaimed billionaire, was giving a speech while the world's richest man was literally dancing around him while figuratively kissing Trump's ass. And this is the savior of the middle class?! >> >> >> >> >> >> Elon Musk captured jumping on stage at Trump rally >> >> >> >> >> >> 4) Trump will solve the most important problem facing the nation, illegal immigration: >> >> >> >> >> >> Ten or fifteen years from now people, or Mr. Jupiter Brain, will look back on the "vitally important" immigration problem and laugh. >> >> >> >> >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1XzD%2BgTUje3t1qoE5jo72g9ZPFn%2BW%2BYvyuETnrq03A%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFh8trq_DLJY1YV6qaoWrq10%2BXJ5tQhvqng_qnSOoYf7A%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB6xytnRXvPAohAOJTXegWuy9cGOsWDmGRcpjyydAZeQLg%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyE5rrF5gXObBWZTNtouX_GSGfBFtEJVhPp-3nYBw1opTQ%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB63CTNayPs-UqipcA1vw_eimodmFgSxs9FLTcS8%2BKoDMA%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFRFZJFB16KjKckkYLYM6-fBzk46FCZs45h8Ex%3D9FTPAg%40mail.gmail.com. From eleitl at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 16:51:28 2024 From: eleitl at gmail.com (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 18:51:28 +0200 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 14:14 Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Wow. Didn't think we'd ever hear from you again. > > How have you been? > Thanks, nominal. I was lurking for a while but the equivalent of a buttdial (ghost touch) blew my cover. Sorry to disturb, please carry on. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Oct 18 20:40:31 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 21:40:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/10/2024 17:41, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Wow.? Didn't think we'd ever hear?from you again. > How have you been? > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 11:38 AM Eugen Leitl via extropy-chat > wrote: extropy-chat?mailing?list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
Glad to see your name again, Eugen, but nothing seems to have come through from you. What did you want to say? Ben -- I'm a big fan of intelligent design. I think it's a great idea, and we should proceed with it as soon as possible. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 21:10:10 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 14:10:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Keith I feel I have provided an explanation, Sorry, If you did, I missed it. > you?re just choosing to not listen unless I agree that your model explains all of why people like Trump. Ignore Trump, do you have an explanation as to why MAGA and QAnon activity/belief is concentrated in the economically depressed areas of the country? Or conversely, why do these memes get little traction in relatively prosperous places? > I?m not sure why you think the single brain level is the only important factor for what humans do. We have the entirety of culture and memetics forming emergent mind structures and they have their own set of traits. Are you aware of how much I have written on memes? Richard Dawkins acknowledged my work in the second edition of The Selfish Gene. MEMETICS AND THE MODULAR-MIND Analog 1987 http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=29007 https://groups.google.com/g/alt.mindcontrol/c/MebHkQFkUT4/m/rAwQ5rwDPhAJ > Children raised in isolation are like animals, but you seem to think that all people are solely these animals. My work is all over the web. I don't think you can support such a claim. But try it and let me know. Keith I truly don?t get it when everything apparent points to there being so much more than just the evolved physical content of brains. On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 9:58?AM Will Steinberg wrote: > > John as usual you have purposefully or ignorantly misread so much of what I said that it is almost impossible to respond. It is a sisyphean task and I?m not sure why I do it. > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 7:47?AM John Clark wrote: >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 6:44?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >>> > None of your reasons are what I mentioned. >> >> >> Obviously you're right that none of the reasons I mentioned have decreased Trump's popularity with the Nazi-Curious one bit, but that fact is incompatible with something else you said, "Intelligence is not the issue". > > > I?m not sure the point of this part, I?m pointing out that you did your typical thing of completely ignoring the main point and responding with whatever random bullshit is in your head and you want to say. It is very much like Trump does. Your brash ignorance and lack of understanding or care about context as well as the way you act like you believing something makes it fact are Trumpian. > >> >>> > Nobody cares what Trump will do >> >> >> Nobody? I care, in fact a majority of American voters care, but of course their votes do not elect the president, only the 538 members of the electoral college are allowed to vote for the president. I will however concede the fact that YOU do not care. > > > By ?nobody? I obviously meant ?nobody [who is voting for Trump].? > > > >> >>> they care that he?s not the old political elite oligarchy >> >> >> Trump is the oldest man to ever run for president from a major political party in the entire history of the country, Trump is a former president, Trump is a billionaire, Trump has the richest man in the world LITERALLY dancing around him.... and yet he's not a member of the "old political elite oligarchy"? No Will, intelligence is very much an issue. > > > Yes John, when you explore a concept, you have to look at THE WHOLE FUCKING THING. Trump hasn?t been part of the old political oligarchy because unlike all the other people who run he wasn?t inside the party machines. He dealt with them (and was a Democrat forever) but it?s very different from being inside them and being beholden to them. This is the obliteratively obvious point I am trying to make. Trump may be a corporate oligarch but he?s not a political one. And I would argue he wasn?t really a corporate one, he didn?t have his fingers in many serious pies. More of a socialite and stuck to his real estate stuff and his dumb tv shows and ridiculous products, nothing like the heads of multinational food/chemical/oil/etc. companies who are seriously intermingled with government and routinely pull strings that affect foreign and domestic policies in a massive way. > > >> >>> > It?s not about policy, >> >> >> Obviously true, therefore it must be about intelligence, or rather the lack of it. > > > Or it could be about the other thing that I overtly said. How does your mind work? I don?t know how you manage to so perfectly miss every point. > > >> >>> > people don?t care when he breaks promises >> >> >> It's true that some people don't care that Trump breaks promises, and some people don't care that Trump tells an obvious bold-faced lie about once every 35 seconds in every speech he gives. You care so little you say you're not even going to bother to vote. But I care, and I have already voted. > > > Again, the obvious meaning here is that people who like Trump don?t care if he breaks promises. > >> >> >>> > The fix is simple, just have a Democrat run who criticizes political elites. But it isn?t happening, because the party won?t allow it, as seen with Bernie. >> >> >> Will, if you believe that an old man like Bernie Sanders, older than Trump and even older than Biden, could beat Donald Trump in a presidential race then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. > > > Well I see how this one could be misinterpreted but I wasn?t explicitly saying Bernie could beat Trump now, more trying to show that the Democrats scuttle the ascendancy of anyone who criticizes their political system. But I do think he would have a shot at beating him. > > > @Keith I feel I have provided an explanation, you?re just choosing to not listen unless I agree that your model explains all of why people like Trump. I?m not sure why you think the single brain level is the only important factor for what humans do. We have the entirety of culture and memetics forming emergent mind structures and they have their own set of traits. Children raised in isolation are like animals, but you seem to think that all people are solely these animals. I truly don?t get it when everything apparent points to there being so much more than just the evolved physical content of brains. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyH-Ts6UMYv0Xx%2BpiAUGgi-6pAL5jX5PAgQuVZ295TrU%2BA%40mail.gmail.com. From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 19 22:56:03 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:56:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one Message-ID: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> I spoke to a good friend and former colleague about the launch, particularly the recovery. He said the chopsticks which caught the booster tracked with the vehicle on landing, all of it part of the control system. Elon swung these chopsticks which weigh as much as a dump truck, to track with the gently descending booster. This former colleague watched this and realized Elon just whooped our asses (he's still working.) But he was able to just admire what a cool landing system it is. Check this video. Is this cool or what? https://twitter.com/i/status/1847716589942296766 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 23:15:47 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:15:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> References: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know what the gouts of flame shooting out the side of the booster were. Obviously they didn't hurt the landing but those didn't look spec. On Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 4:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I spoke to a good friend and former colleague about the launch, > particularly the recovery. He said the chopsticks which caught the booster > tracked with the vehicle on landing, all of it part of the control system. > Elon swung these chopsticks which weigh as much as a dump truck, to track > with the gently descending booster. > > > > This former colleague watched this and realized Elon just whooped our > asses (he?s still working.) But he was able to just admire what a cool > landing system it is. > > > > Check this video. Is this cool or what? > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1847716589942296766 > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 05:50:40 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 07:50:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Starship=E2=80=99s_reentry_sonic_boom_in_a_polit?= =?utf-8?q?ical_storm?= Message-ID: My thoughts on the politics of the epic Starship's test flight 5: Starship?s reentry sonic boom in a political storm. The epic achievement of SpaceX in a political storm centered on Elon Musk's cultural and political positions. https://magazine.mindplex.ai/starships-reentry-sonic-boom-in-a-political-storm/ From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 15:44:56 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 09:44:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I've been closely following this the last few days, and nobody has said anything about that. Not SpaceX, none of the space nerd followers. Except, one of the space channels did say that there was a superficial loss of a cover which might have allowed flames cooling under the bottom to leak out the sides. Now, when one looks at the base of the rocket above the engines, it was reported that it was half the temperature of the surface of the sun... so any lack of covering that allowed that kind of heat to just leak out could have produced some interesting effects. Not sure that's what we saw. There must have been a LITTLE bit of fuel left when it landed. Perhaps that was just gassing off and ignited by the hotness of the whole bottom of the rocket. The silence on this element is really interesting to me. It's like, "nothing to see here, move on"... I suppose we'll know if it happens next time as well, or they figure out a way to fix it. -Kelly On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 5:16?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does anyone know what the gouts of flame shooting out the side of the booster were. Obviously they didn't hurt the landing but those didn't look spec. > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 4:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> I spoke to a good friend and former colleague about the launch, particularly the recovery. He said the chopsticks which caught the booster tracked with the vehicle on landing, all of it part of the control system. Elon swung these chopsticks which weigh as much as a dump truck, to track with the gently descending booster. >> >> >> >> This former colleague watched this and realized Elon just whooped our asses (he?s still working.) But he was able to just admire what a cool landing system it is. >> >> >> >> Check this video. Is this cool or what? >> >> >> >> https://twitter.com/i/status/1847716589942296766 >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 16:40:35 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 17:40:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 at 16:47, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > I've been closely following this the last few days, and nobody has > said anything about that. Not SpaceX, none of the space nerd > followers. Except, one of the space channels did say that there was a > superficial loss of a cover which might have allowed flames cooling > under the bottom to leak out the sides. > > Now, when one looks at the base of the rocket above the engines, it > was reported that it was half the temperature of the surface of the > sun... so any lack of covering that allowed that kind of heat to just > leak out could have produced some interesting effects. Not sure that's > what we saw. > > There must have been a LITTLE bit of fuel left when it landed. Perhaps > that was just gassing off and ignited by the hotness of the whole > bottom of the rocket. > > The silence on this element is really interesting to me. It's like, > "nothing to see here, move on"... I suppose we'll know if it happens > next time as well, or they figure out a way to fix it. > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ This article suggests that it was mainly fuel venting. But there might also be a problem that needs checking out before the next flight. A lot of detail in the discussion, with slow motion video. BillK Quote: Everything to know about SpaceX's mid-air booster "catch" Was it on fire? Why was there black smoke?? Why a catch instead landing??? Swapna Krishna October 17, 2024 ------------------------------- From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 17:08:12 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 11:08:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Dumping the extra methane is what I've assumed it was. IFT4 had something that looked very similar, right? They just dump the LOX overboard, but can't do that with the liquid methane. The only way to dump that is with a flame stack to keep it from becoming explosive. It also looks very similar to the way the Delta 4 "lights itself on fire" at launch, to dispose of any dangerous fuel where it shouldn't be. I've heard people say it was venting from the quick disconnect port, which seems to be consistent with this. And most people in the know probably know this, so don't ask and people don't talk about it much? Seems I've heard/seen other evidence confirming this, but don't recall the specifics. On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 10:41?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 at 16:47, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I've been closely following this the last few days, and nobody has > > said anything about that. Not SpaceX, none of the space nerd > > followers. Except, one of the space channels did say that there was a > > superficial loss of a cover which might have allowed flames cooling > > under the bottom to leak out the sides. > > > > Now, when one looks at the base of the rocket above the engines, it > > was reported that it was half the temperature of the surface of the > > sun... so any lack of covering that allowed that kind of heat to just > > leak out could have produced some interesting effects. Not sure that's > > what we saw. > > > > There must have been a LITTLE bit of fuel left when it landed. Perhaps > > that was just gassing off and ignited by the hotness of the whole > > bottom of the rocket. > > > > The silence on this element is really interesting to me. It's like, > > "nothing to see here, move on"... I suppose we'll know if it happens > > next time as well, or they figure out a way to fix it. > > > > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > > > This article suggests that it was mainly fuel venting. > But there might also be a problem that needs checking out before the > next flight. > A lot of detail in the discussion, with slow motion video. > > BillK > > > Quote: > Everything to know about SpaceX's mid-air booster "catch" > Was it on fire? Why was there black smoke?? Why a catch instead landing??? > Swapna Krishna October 17, 2024 > ------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 18:06:26 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 14:06:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 11:46?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > it > was reported that it was half the temperature of the surface of the > sun > Sun surface temperature: around 6,000 kelvin (6K K). Aerobraking temperature: around 3,000 kelvin. This report checks out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:25:07 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 14:25:07 -0600 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: References: <007f01db227a$133f9490$39bebdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: As I meant to insinuate, there are guesses out there, but I await SpaceX's comment on the matter. I guessed it was fuel venting as well. But it's just a guess just like these guys did. -Kelly On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 10:41?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 at 16:47, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I've been closely following this the last few days, and nobody has > > said anything about that. Not SpaceX, none of the space nerd > > followers. Except, one of the space channels did say that there was a > > superficial loss of a cover which might have allowed flames cooling > > under the bottom to leak out the sides. > > > > Now, when one looks at the base of the rocket above the engines, it > > was reported that it was half the temperature of the surface of the > > sun... so any lack of covering that allowed that kind of heat to just > > leak out could have produced some interesting effects. Not sure that's > > what we saw. > > > > There must have been a LITTLE bit of fuel left when it landed. Perhaps > > that was just gassing off and ignited by the hotness of the whole > > bottom of the rocket. > > > > The silence on this element is really interesting to me. It's like, > > "nothing to see here, move on"... I suppose we'll know if it happens > > next time as well, or they figure out a way to fix it. > > > > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > > > This article suggests that it was mainly fuel venting. > But there might also be a problem that needs checking out before the > next flight. > A lot of detail in the discussion, with slow motion video. > > BillK > > > Quote: > Everything to know about SpaceX's mid-air booster "catch" > Was it on fire? Why was there black smoke?? Why a catch instead landing??? > Swapna Krishna October 17, 2024 > ------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:27:10 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 14:27:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar Message-ID: Has anyone run the numbers on whether space based solar makes sense yet if the Super Heavy keeps some of its economic promises? -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:35:31 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 14:35:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Avoiding Spam In-Reply-To: References: <914b49d3-651c-4a87-8d8a-c1f60138a99f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Back in 2003 I started a one man company Habit3 Software that sorted email in order of importance. It used the same technique as SpamAssassin, but added a few hundred rules looking for positive attributes like "this email came from someone I've previously sent email to" and the like. I even added "roles" so that the rules could be applied differently depending upon whether you were working, or doing family, or some other activity that you regularly engaged in. It worked relatively well, though it was computationally intensive. I wrote it in C# because I like C#, but later found out it was INCREDIBLY bad at efficient string processing. Anyway, I got talked into working on something else for a long while. Does anyone know if anyone else implemented an email sorter like this in the meantime? I've thought about the idea of recycling some of my old programming ideas now that AI does heavy lifting in the coding arena... I'm still not convinced that it would be worth my time though. -Kelly On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 1:57?PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi, > > > Personally, I don't get much spam, and it's easily spotted and removed. > I > > just thought it might be worth reviving this old idea I had a few years > ago > > but didn't do anything with (because I don't really have a spam problem). > > This solution has been around for ages, even in spite of Google making a > big mess of it and having security issues because Google's too big and > dumb to follow standards, even standards that've existed for decades > longer than they have. > > However, some spammers have picked up on this and enough email address > scrapers just remove the + and anything after it. It still helps, though. > > More than a decade ago I started doing something like this, but I create > an actual address for each use. If I start getting spam at, say, > john.coffeeshoponthecorner at whatever.com, which I'd've created and used > only in one specific place ever, I know that that coffee shop was > compromised or they shared my data. Large corporations like Oracle, Adobe, > Amazon, Avid, Google, Microsoft and eBay have "shared", whether knowingly > or via compromise, my email address with spammers. It has helped to reduce > spam tremendously because I can turn off addresses when companies go out > of business, become shitty, or simply don't care about security. > > > I guess the existing measures are good enough for most people. And I > suppose > > if you're on the alert for spam, you're also more likely to catch other > bad > > stuff that's far worse. > > Having run email servers since the '90s, I have some strong feeling about > and some good experience with dealing with spam. The biggest problem is > the webification of the Internet. You can get a domain and hosting, > registered anonymousyly, hosted anonymously, with working reverse DNS, > with anonymouns WHOIS information, with TLS certificates, DMARC and SPF, > with practically no work at all, and so long as companies like Cloudflare, > OVH and DigitalOcean will take your money and let you do whatever you > want, with no real consequences and with complete anonymity, we'll have > spam forever. They profit from this, and Google profits by people being > afraid to have their email anywhere except the same cesspool where > everyone else is, too. > > The Venn diagram of extropians and technical people has plenty of overlap, > but spam and email is probably not a real interest of most people here. > But if anyone is interested in spam and email stuff, particularly > self-hosting email, I'm writing up some articles and would love feedback. > If you're interested, contact me off-list :) > > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:58:44 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 13:58:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 1:28?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Has anyone run the numbers on whether space based solar makes sense yet if the Super Heavy keeps some of its economic promises? Yes. 100 tons is 100,000 kg. If a flight gets down to even $10 million, that's $100/kg to LEO, double that to GEO with electric propulsion. 6.5 kg/kW is a reasonable number, so $1300/kW for transport, $900/kW for parts and labor, plus $200/kW for the rectenna. That adds up to $2400/kW. Divide by 80,000 to get 3 cents per kWh. Looks good from energy return time, takes about 66 days to pay back the fuel energy used to lift it to orbit. The problem is that it takes 500 flights to build one. A reasonable construction rate of 50 a year would take 20 years to replace 1/3rd of current consumption. I don't know if the atmospheric damage of 25,000 flights per year would be acceptable, but NOAA could answer that question if asked. The money through this program is $600 B/year. Keith > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Sun Oct 20 21:10:44 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 23:10:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 1:28?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Has anyone run the numbers on whether space based solar makes sense yet if the Super Heavy keeps some of its economic promises? > > Yes. > > 100 tons is 100,000 kg. If a flight gets down to even $10 million, > that's $100/kg to LEO, double that to GEO with electric propulsion. > 6.5 kg/kW is a reasonable number, so $1300/kW for transport, $900/kW > for parts and labor, plus $200/kW for the rectenna. That adds up to > $2400/kW. Divide by 80,000 to get 3 cents per kWh. > > Looks good from energy return time, takes about 66 days to pay back > the fuel energy used to lift it to orbit. > > The problem is that it takes 500 flights to build one. A reasonable > construction rate of 50 a year would take 20 years to replace 1/3rd of > current consumption. I don't know if the atmospheric damage of 25,000 > flights per year would be acceptable, but NOAA could answer that > question if asked. > > The money through this program is $600 B/year. What about the constant and tedious counter-argument that it is impossible/difficult/too expensive/too unreliable to beam energy down to the planet? Has there been any new development there that would make it feasible? I love the idea personally, but I assume, cost aside, that there's probably some hurdle, technical or political lurking inside there somewhere. Best regards, Daniel > Keith > >> -Kelly >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 23:02:12 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 16:02:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 2:11?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > > The money through this program is $600 B/year. > > What about the constant and tedious counter-argument that it is > impossible/difficult/too expensive/too unreliable to beam energy down to > the planet? Utter nonsense. How long have we been beaming microwave down from GEO? The loss budget is well understood. > Has there been any new development there that would make it feasible? No. It's been technically feasible for a long time > I love the idea personally, but I assume, cost aside, that there's > probably some hurdle, technical or political lurking inside there > somewhere. It is the dollar scale of the project that is the big hurdle. Keith > Best regards, > Daniel > > > > Keith > > > >> -Kelly > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 23:10:34 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:10:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 5:00?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 1:28?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Has anyone run the numbers on whether space based solar makes sense yet > if the Super Heavy keeps some of its economic promises? > > Yes. > > 100 tons is 100,000 kg. If a flight gets down to even $10 million, > that's $100/kg to LEO, double that to GEO with electric propulsion. > 6.5 kg/kW is a reasonable number, so $1300/kW for transport, $900/kW > for parts and labor, plus $200/kW for the rectenna. That adds up to > $2400/kW. Divide by 80,000 to get 3 cents per kWh. > > Looks good from energy return time, takes about 66 days to pay back > the fuel energy used to lift it to orbit. > > The problem is that it takes 500 flights to build one. A reasonable > construction rate of 50 a year would take 20 years to replace 1/3rd of > current consumption. I don't know if the atmospheric damage of 25,000 > flights per year would be acceptable, but NOAA could answer that > question if asked. > > The money through this program is $600 B/year. > Needing that much money up front, before the program is generating revenue, makes it economically infeasible. No one with the requisite finances will believe that heavily in the revenue until after a small scale prototype is demonstrating, even at significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, perhaps). You may see such a prototype as "wasteful" or "wasted", and in the long run it would become obsolete. It is a necessary expendable, in a sense, to get the program started. In that light, what are the numbers for a prototype that could be built with just one Super Heavy? The $/kWh will be worse, but you have an absolute maximum to LEO of 100 tons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 21 00:28:39 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 17:28:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one Message-ID: <000901db2350$2d768720$88639560$@rainier66.com> Oh that landing is just so cool, I could watch that a thousand times: https://twitter.com/i/status/1848028795489436039 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 21 08:44:48 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:44:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: >> I love the idea personally, but I assume, cost aside, that there's >> probably some hurdle, technical or political lurking inside there >> somewhere. > > It is the dollar scale of the project that is the big hurdle. Well, let's release Musk on it, and I'm sure it will be done in a couple of years! =) > Keith > >> Best regards, >> Daniel >> >> >>> Keith >>> >>>> -Kelly >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 21 08:45:46 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:45:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a99771a-e37f-5f1c-ab71-daa6e2e9fa9b@disroot.org> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 5:00?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 1:28?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Has anyone run the numbers on whether space based solar makes sense yet if the Super Heavy keeps some of its economic > promises? > > Yes. > > 100 tons is 100,000 kg. If a flight gets down to even $10 million, > that's $100/kg to LEO, double that to GEO with electric propulsion. > 6.5 kg/kW is a reasonable number, so $1300/kW for transport, $900/kW > for parts and labor, plus $200/kW for the rectenna.? That adds up to > $2400/kW.? Divide by 80,000 to get 3 cents per kWh. > > Looks good from energy return time, takes about 66 days to pay back > the fuel energy used to lift it to orbit. > > The problem is that it takes 500 flights to build one.? A reasonable > construction rate of 50 a year would take 20 years to replace 1/3rd of > current consumption. I don't know if the atmospheric damage of 25,000 > flights per year would be acceptable, but NOAA could answer that > question if asked. > > The money through this program is $600 B/year. > > > Needing that much money up front, before the program is generating revenue, makes it economically infeasible.? No one with the > requisite finances will believe that heavily in the revenue until after a small scale prototype is demonstrating, even at > significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, perhaps).? > > You may see such a prototype as "wasteful" or "wasted", and in the long run it would become obsolete.? It is a necessary expendable, > in a sense, to get the program started. > > In that light, what are the numbers for a prototype that could be built with just one Super Heavy?? The $/kWh will be worse, but you > have an absolute maximum to LEO of 100 tons. > Yes! Why couldn't it be built in modules, expanding as you go? From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 13:40:17 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:40:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > >> I love the idea personally, but I assume, cost aside, that there's > >> probably some hurdle, technical or political lurking inside there > >> somewhere. > > > > It is the dollar scale of the project that is the big hurdle. > > Well, let's release Musk on it, and I'm sure it will be done in a couple > of years! =) > Musk is free to pursue it already. Notice that he isn't actively pursuing it. If some power company were to approach SpaceX about setting up such a thing, using the money involved to subsidize a high launch rate the way Starlink has subsidized a high launch rate for the Falcons, then maybe. But the scale of money would seem to exceed what even Musk is free to drop on it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 13:47:27 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:47:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: <1a99771a-e37f-5f1c-ab71-daa6e2e9fa9b@disroot.org> References: <1a99771a-e37f-5f1c-ab71-daa6e2e9fa9b@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:47?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 5:00?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 1:28?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone run the numbers on whether space based solar makes > sense yet if the Super Heavy keeps some of its economic > > promises? > > > > Yes. > > > > 100 tons is 100,000 kg. If a flight gets down to even $10 million, > > that's $100/kg to LEO, double that to GEO with electric propulsion. > > 6.5 kg/kW is a reasonable number, so $1300/kW for transport, > $900/kW > > for parts and labor, plus $200/kW for the rectenna. That adds up > to > > $2400/kW. Divide by 80,000 to get 3 cents per kWh. > > > > Looks good from energy return time, takes about 66 days to pay back > > the fuel energy used to lift it to orbit. > > > > The problem is that it takes 500 flights to build one. A > reasonable > > construction rate of 50 a year would take 20 years to replace > 1/3rd of > > current consumption. I don't know if the atmospheric damage of > 25,000 > > flights per year would be acceptable, but NOAA could answer that > > question if asked. > > > > The money through this program is $600 B/year. > > > > > > Needing that much money up front, before the program is generating > revenue, makes it economically infeasible. No one with the > > requisite finances will believe that heavily in the revenue until after > a small scale prototype is demonstrating, even at > > significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, perhaps). > > > > You may see such a prototype as "wasteful" or "wasted", and in the long > run it would become obsolete. It is a necessary expendable, > > in a sense, to get the program started. > > > > In that light, what are the numbers for a prototype that could be built > with just one Super Heavy? The $/kWh will be worse, but you > > have an absolute maximum to LEO of 100 tons. > > Yes! Why couldn't it be built in modules, expanding as you go? > Note for context: I am working on a rocket system that - if everything goes absolutely, unreasonably right - might result in 100-200 tons to LEO service in a decade, with $100/kg or less. While that point is way too far out to guarantee service yet, I am at least academically interested in what happens to these numbers if the cost drops to, say, $80/kg, or $50/kg. Lower $/kg becomes easier to justify the higher the annual flight rate gets - but requires a larger, less feasible amount of funding, especially if it comes from a single project like this. (One could imagine competing constellations, both using the same launch provider, to get up to a net total of 1/3rd of humanity's power consumption in only 20 years, but this is highly unlikely without a far lower cost option for someone to go first.) So, at what $/kg does at least a prototype solar power satellite constellation become remotely fundable? And how small could such a prototype be to make sense for a specialized use case that could justify a higher $/kWh? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 15:14:41 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:14:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have missed how the human model works. The condition that turns on the first step in the process is a *subjective )view" of the future. It is, in the US case, places where things are worse in outlook than they were in person's view of the past. This trips our Stone Age detectors of a coming resource crisis and we become more likely to spread xenophobic or crazy memes. (In the Stone Age this led to an attempt to kill the neighbors and take their resources, i.e., war. While war is rational from the gene's viewpoint it is not rational from the individual's viewpoint, so genes for seemingly irrational behavior are favored.) And it is relative. See the Robert B. Cialdini reference in https://www.academia.edu/777381/Evolutionary_psychology_memes_and_the_origin_of_war You don't need to be starving, just feel that the future is not going to be as good as what you are accustomed to. I don't expect you to understand or agree with this. Most people have a strong bias against the idea that they have such evolved internal psychological traits. Probably too much insight is bad for your genes. Keith On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:47?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > What a reductive question. I don?t have to have an answer, but it?s certainly not poverty as the most impoverished inner city areas are not MAGA/Qanon, and plenty of rich people are MAGA. So we have at least failed to reject the null hypothesis there in my opinion. I don?t have a good suggestion, I reckon it is a confluence of many factors. An easy guess which I think is better than yours is rural vs urban, which I think tracks far more completely, and is borne out in electoral maps. > > Of course the real answer is surely multifaceted and includes economic, religious, vocational, racial, etc. factors. > > I also think you are happy to reduce people to statistics when they disagree with you, but what about you? Do you not support Trump because you make a certain amount of money? If you became destitute would you suddenly believe conspiracy theories? It?s patronizing. As if a person?s opinion becomes the ?poor person opinion? if they are poor. Some poor people are communists. Some are nazis. Some have the most bog standard opinions you can imagine. It?s just not a good determinant of political leaning and I think it?s easy to come up with counterexamples. > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 9:43?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> You did not attempt to answer my question. >> >> What is the difference between parts of the country that buy into >> MAGA/QAnon and those parts that don't? >> >> Keith >> >> >> Keith >> >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 8:02?AM Will Steinberg wrote: >> > >> > The poorest people in the country are overwhelmingly people of color and they are overwhelmingly democrat. Though I will give you that they too are starting to go towards Trump. >> > >> > I do believe there is a tendency towards strongmen in uncertain times. But my explanation of Trump in particular is that he represents specifically a reaction towards calcified political oligarchy and inefficiency. Which some strongmen are, and others aren?t. But I believe the reason he is supported so strongly is because people see this oligarchy as their #1 issue and that it is responsible for all other problems. And in particular people take issue with the brazen lying that anything about this oligarchy is efficient or positive. It?s like lying about Biden?s mental decline until the very last possible second. Lies like that absolutely destroy trust and make people see things as a farce. So when some guy comes along and is the only one saying ?those guys are liars and this is a farce? it resonates so strongly that they don?t even care that he lies about other things. What they care about is the long con by the 2 party establishment that everything is/was going smoothly when the people see and experience the wheels falling off >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 5:10?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> >> >> @Keith I feel I have provided an explanation, >> >> >> >> Sorry, If you did, I missed it. >> >> >> >> > you?re just choosing to not listen unless I agree that your model explains all of why people like Trump. >> >> >> >> Ignore Trump, do you have an explanation as to why MAGA and QAnon >> >> activity/belief is concentrated in the economically depressed areas of >> >> the country? Or conversely, why do these memes get little traction in >> >> relatively prosperous places? >> >> >> >> > I?m not sure why you think the single brain level is the only important factor for what humans do. We have the entirety of culture and memetics forming emergent mind structures and they have their own set of traits. >> >> >> >> Are you aware of how much I have written on memes? Richard Dawkins >> >> acknowledged my work in the second edition of The Selfish Gene. >> >> >> >> MEMETICS AND THE MODULAR-MIND Analog 1987 >> >> >> >> http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=29007 >> >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.mindcontrol/c/MebHkQFkUT4/m/rAwQ5rwDPhAJ >> >> >> >> > Children raised in isolation are like animals, but you seem to think that all people are solely these animals. >> >> >> >> My work is all over the web. I don't think you can support such a >> >> claim. But try it and let me know. >> >> >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> I truly don?t get it when everything apparent points to there being >> >> so much more than just the evolved physical content of brains. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 9:58?AM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> > >> >> > John as usual you have purposefully or ignorantly misread so much of what I said that it is almost impossible to respond. It is a sisyphean task and I?m not sure why I do it. >> >> > >> >> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 7:47?AM John Clark wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 6:44?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> > None of your reasons are what I mentioned. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Obviously you're right that none of the reasons I mentioned have decreased Trump's popularity with the Nazi-Curious one bit, but that fact is incompatible with something else you said, "Intelligence is not the issue". >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I?m not sure the point of this part, I?m pointing out that you did your typical thing of completely ignoring the main point and responding with whatever random bullshit is in your head and you want to say. It is very much like Trump does. Your brash ignorance and lack of understanding or care about context as well as the way you act like you believing something makes it fact are Trumpian. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> > Nobody cares what Trump will do >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Nobody? I care, in fact a majority of American voters care, but of course their votes do not elect the president, only the 538 members of the electoral college are allowed to vote for the president. I will however concede the fact that YOU do not care. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > By ?nobody? I obviously meant ?nobody [who is voting for Trump].? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> they care that he?s not the old political elite oligarchy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Trump is the oldest man to ever run for president from a major political party in the entire history of the country, Trump is a former president, Trump is a billionaire, Trump has the richest man in the world LITERALLY dancing around him.... and yet he's not a member of the "old political elite oligarchy"? No Will, intelligence is very much an issue. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yes John, when you explore a concept, you have to look at THE WHOLE FUCKING THING. Trump hasn?t been part of the old political oligarchy because unlike all the other people who run he wasn?t inside the party machines. He dealt with them (and was a Democrat forever) but it?s very different from being inside them and being beholden to them. This is the obliteratively obvious point I am trying to make. Trump may be a corporate oligarch but he?s not a political one. And I would argue he wasn?t really a corporate one, he didn?t have his fingers in many serious pies. More of a socialite and stuck to his real estate stuff and his dumb tv shows and ridiculous products, nothing like the heads of multinational food/chemical/oil/etc. companies who are seriously intermingled with government and routinely pull strings that affect foreign and domestic policies in a massive way. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> > It?s not about policy, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Obviously true, therefore it must be about intelligence, or rather the lack of it. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Or it could be about the other thing that I overtly said. How does your mind work? I don?t know how you manage to so perfectly miss every point. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> > people don?t care when he breaks promises >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It's true that some people don't care that Trump breaks promises, and some people don't care that Trump tells an obvious bold-faced lie about once every 35 seconds in every speech he gives. You care so little you say you're not even going to bother to vote. But I care, and I have already voted. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Again, the obvious meaning here is that people who like Trump don?t care if he breaks promises. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> > The fix is simple, just have a Democrat run who criticizes political elites. But it isn?t happening, because the party won?t allow it, as seen with Bernie. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Will, if you believe that an old man like Bernie Sanders, older than Trump and even older than Biden, could beat Donald Trump in a presidential race then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Well I see how this one could be misinterpreted but I wasn?t explicitly saying Bernie could beat Trump now, more trying to show that the Democrats scuttle the ascendancy of anyone who criticizes their political system. But I do think he would have a shot at beating him. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > @Keith I feel I have provided an explanation, you?re just choosing to not listen unless I agree that your model explains all of why people like Trump. I?m not sure why you think the single brain level is the only important factor for what humans do. We have the entirety of culture and memetics forming emergent mind structures and they have their own set of traits. Children raised in isolation are like animals, but you seem to think that all people are solely these animals. I truly don?t get it when everything apparent points to there being so much more than just the evolved physical content of brains. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyH-Ts6UMYv0Xx%2BpiAUGgi-6pAL5jX5PAgQuVZ295TrU%2BA%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB5NvRyTWO_UPERSz7sgTJUWmO58n0Kkpyp5v7ufTNjG8Q%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyHE_gQRtpOy0TV%2BVrEAVdFPiDO0q0WxY0EGn%2By7aEM4xA%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7Ev%2BVqLX%2BFLoQeJeF%2BncTpjuag_KE3Ek88L%3D_QhGZLbw%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyG95WbAf1oZo4OP7_eFJxZw98VFYFG55U%2Bd9T0xPLv-Dg%40mail.gmail.com. From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 17:18:47 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 18:18:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <1a99771a-e37f-5f1c-ab71-daa6e2e9fa9b@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 14:50, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:47?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Note for context: I am working on a rocket system that - if everything goes absolutely, unreasonably right - might result in 100-200 tons to LEO service in a decade, with $100/kg or less. While that point is way too far out to guarantee service yet, I am at least academically interested in what happens to these numbers if the cost drops to, say, $80/kg, or $50/kg. Lower $/kg becomes easier to justify the higher the annual flight rate gets - but requires a larger, less feasible amount of funding, especially if it comes from a single project like this. (One could imagine competing constellations, both using the same launch provider, to get up to a net total of 1/3rd of humanity's power consumption in only 20 years, but this is highly unlikely without a far lower cost option for someone to go first.) > > So, at what $/kg does at least a prototype solar power satellite constellation become remotely fundable? And how small could such a prototype be to make sense for a specialized use case that could justify a higher $/kWh? > _______________________________________________ The efficiency of PV solar panels continues to improve. So would waiting a few years for better panels be a good idea? (Though this reminds me of delaying computer purchases because next year's model will always be better). :) BillK From postmowoods at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 18:18:24 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:18:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: Musk is making too much on Starlink to be bothered with low ROI energy, but once there are 30,000+ starlink satellites up there, he'll go looking for the next step. This MIGHT be it. We will see. -Kelly On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:41?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: >> >> I love the idea personally, but I assume, cost aside, that there's >> >> probably some hurdle, technical or political lurking inside there >> >> somewhere. >> > >> > It is the dollar scale of the project that is the big hurdle. >> >> Well, let's release Musk on it, and I'm sure it will be done in a couple >> of years! =) >> > > Musk is free to pursue it already. > > Notice that he isn't actively pursuing it. > > If some power company were to approach SpaceX about setting up such a > thing, using the money involved to subsidize a high launch rate the way > Starlink has subsidized a high launch rate for the Falcons, then maybe. > But the scale of money would seem to exceed what even Musk is free to drop > on it. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 18:26:42 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 14:26:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <1a99771a-e37f-5f1c-ab71-daa6e2e9fa9b@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:20?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The efficiency of PV solar panels continues to improve. > So would waiting a few years for better panels be a good idea? > (Though this reminds me of delaying computer purchases because next > year's model will always be better). :) > You might think it's like the old FTL dilemma from sci-fi: if you invent a slow FTL drive, do you launch an expedition to nearby stars now or wait for a faster drive, in the hopes that the combined time of waiting then faster travel will be less than the travel time of the drive you have now? But it's not. People are using energy now. The need is now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 21 18:39:06 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:39:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > >> I love the idea personally, but I assume, cost aside, that there's > >> probably some hurdle, technical or political lurking inside there > >> somewhere. > > > > It is the dollar scale of the project that is the big hurdle. > > Well, let's release Musk on it, and I'm sure it will be done in a couple > of years! =) > > > Musk is free to pursue it already. > > Notice that he isn't actively pursuing it. > > If some power company?were to approach SpaceX about setting up such a thing, using the money?involved to subsidize a high launch rate > the way Starlink has subsidized a high launch rate for the Falcons, then maybe.? But the scale of money would seem to exceed what > even Musk is free to drop on it. Ok, let's do it like this then. Can someone on the list please provide me with Musks email and phone number and I'll talk to him about it. ;) From postmowoods at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 18:53:05 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:53:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: Did anyone yet come up with a way to beam energy to earth that wouldn't be perceived as a weapon? -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 18:54:51 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 14:54:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:42?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ok, let's do it like this then. Can someone on the list please provide me > with Musks email and phone number and I'll talk to him about it. ;) > I tried that some years ago for a different project, actually. He has bodyguards and people to act as filters. You have to get by them to talk to him, if he doesn't initiate contact (which requires that he have heard of you). Look up "Musk inner circle" to find some of them, select one you think you could pitch this to, and try to find their contact info. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 19:04:00 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:04:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:54?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Did anyone yet come up with a way to beam energy to earth that wouldn't be > perceived as a weapon? > There are those who loudly insist that ordinary wind turbines are weapons, and that any nuclear anything that produces power or heat - even a tiny RTG - is a purpose-built bomb just waiting to detonate. Claims that any amount of beamed energy is a weapon, no matter whether the evidence supports or opposes those claims, will not go away. The impact of said claims can at best be mitigated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 19:06:37 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:06:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 9:15?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> What is the difference between parts of the country that buy into > >> MAGA/QAnon and those parts that don't? > >> > >> Keith > I live in MAGA country here in Idaho now. They are rural, religious and love them some guns. I like the rural part quite a bit myself, Libertarian that I am. Someone once tried to tell me that being forced to live together in a big city makes one realize that people have to act as groups, not individuals, in order to thrive. Thus, they lean liberal. In the outback here, one can be pretty self-sufficient, maybe with a little help from your friends, but not Washington... It's not all that poor out here, and the rich are more MAGA than the plebes. It's probably around 90% Republican. They don't go for DEI or trans anything and aren't quite sure about them there gays yet. They don't even seem to be able to let the polygamists do their thing. It's kind of like a museum of the 50s here. -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 19:37:48 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:37:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 19:55, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > Did anyone yet come up with a way to beam energy to earth that wouldn't be perceived as a weapon? > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ The European Space Agency has started the SOLARIS project for the development of satellite technology designed to harvest the Sun's energy in space before transmitting it wirelessly to receiving stations on Earth. They are looking at several options. One simpler option is just reflectors to send sunlight down to ground solar farms to boost their yield. Microwave transmission at similar frequencies to Wi-Fi is another option. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 19:43:41 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:43:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 4:12?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 5:00?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> snip >> >> The money through this program is $600 B/year. > > > Needing that much money up front, Probably $60 B is enough. The cost after the R&D can't go over $12 B each > before the program is generating revenue, makes it economically infeasible. No one with the requisite finances will believe that heavily in the revenue until after a small scale prototype is demonstrating, You can't scale a power satellite down for beans. It is a feature of microwave optics (diffraction). > even at significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, perhaps). That would just kill the idea. > You may see such a prototype as "wasteful" or "wasted", and in the long run it would become obsolete. It is a necessary expendable, in a sense, to get the program started. > > In that light, what are the numbers for a prototype that could be built with just one Super Heavy? The $/kWh will be worse, but you have an absolute maximum to LEO of 100 tons. The physics and economics just don't work. It is not the least bit realistic, but consider if you could build one of the same physical size at no cost. The rectenna is going to cost the same, a billion bucks. Now we get 1/500 of the power for 1/12th the cost. If you could do this (you can't) the cost of power would be about 500/12 x 3 cents or $1.25/kWh. All this would show is that there is no market. The only way I can now see it being done is for a government to back it. If heat was killing a million people per year, that *might* be enough motivation Or maybe not. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 21 20:16:37 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 22:16:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: <59bbd23c-791e-23ea-9388-3d4d309e2b42@disroot.org> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:42?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > Ok, let's do it like this then. Can someone on the list please provide me > with Musks email and phone number and I'll talk to him about it. ;) > > > I tried that some years ago for?a different?project, actually.? He has bodyguards and people to act as filters.? You have to get by > them to talk to him, if he doesn't initiate contact (which requires that he have heard of you).? Look up "Musk inner circle" to find > some of them, select one you think you could pitch this to, and try to find their contact info. Bodyguard? Did you try to physically approach? ;) Jokes, aside, either a common acquaintance or some logical business reason I think should suffice. At the moment I have neither, but will let you know if/when the opportunity presents itself. ;) From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 21 20:20:25 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 22:20:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_normally_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e6b5da0-8d58-6de7-133f-238c5d4676f1@disroot.org> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 9:15?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> What is the difference between parts of the country that buy into > >> MAGA/QAnon and those parts that don't? > >> > >> Keith > > > I live in MAGA country here in Idaho now. They are rural, religious and love them some guns. I like the rural part quite a bit > myself, Libertarian that I am. > > Someone once tried to tell me that being forced to live together in a big city makes one realize that people have to act as groups, > not individuals, in order to thrive. Thus, they lean liberal. In the outback here, one can be pretty self-sufficient, maybe with a > little help from your friends, but not Washington...? > > It's not all that poor out here, and the rich are more MAGA than the plebes. It's probably around 90% Republican. They don't go for > DEI or trans anything and aren't quite sure about them there gays yet. They don't even seem to be able to let the polygamists do > their thing. It's kind of like a museum of the 50s here. > > -Kelly Ah... sounds like a little slice of heaven! When my last important relative dies, I hope to be able to sell everything and move to the rural US. I'm already looking forward to it as the libertarian that I am! From efc at disroot.org Mon Oct 21 20:22:37 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 22:22:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> Message-ID: <9e48a10c-5939-08c1-3eeb-3d82f246243f@disroot.org> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 19:55, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > wrote: >> Did anyone yet come up with a way to beam energy to earth that wouldn't be perceived as a weapon? >> -Kelly >> _______________________________________________ > > > The European Space Agency has started the SOLARIS project for the Oh no... not the EU! Then it will probably take generations. =( > development of satellite technology designed to harvest the Sun's > energy in space before transmitting it wirelessly to receiving > stations on Earth. > They are looking at several options. > > > > One simpler option is just reflectors to send sunlight down to ground > solar farms to boost their yield. How much would they boost their yield? > Microwave transmission at similar frequencies to Wi-Fi is another option. Given how much public push back nuclear generates, I would think that "wifi through the air" would be politically dead in the water. > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:24:28 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 16:24:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 3:44?PM Keith Henson wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 4:12?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > before the program is generating revenue, makes it economically > infeasible. No one with the requisite finances will believe that heavily > in the revenue until after a small scale prototype is demonstrating, > > You can't scale a power satellite down for beans. It is a feature of > microwave optics (diffraction). > You can. It may be substantially less efficient, but it does work - at all - at smaller volumes. > > even at significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, > perhaps). > > That would just kill the idea. > How does the existence of limited markets that can pay higher amounts for the same service kill the idea? "Not being able to deploy the same rate to the general market" is not an answer: at most, you just ignore those limited markets, but I'm saying there is a way for a beginning, not-yet-as-efficient service to take advantage of these markets. > The rectenna is going to cost the same, a billion > bucks. I can build a rectenna for less than $100. Not $100B, but $100. It's a tiny little thing that might not even handle a kW. But it would handle 1 W, and cost less than a billion bucks. Likewise, ordinary satellite antennas receive far-smaller-than-power grade "beamed power" from orbit all the time, and very few if any cost a billion dollars. Your assertion that any rectenna, regardless of the power level involved, will cost a billion bucks is blatantly false. Likewise, your assertion that it is impossible to scale down a power satellite because of physics is questionable at best. They don't scale down very well, but "not for beans" and "literally impossible" are quite distinct. You would be well served to toss out these notions of "impossible" and "can never under any possible circumstances be economical", and instead to actually present numbers. For instance, https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ shows that current electricity rates in Hawaii is above $0.30/kWh and has been for over a year. That is to say: a system that could serve all of Hawaii's needs and charge $0.30/kWh would, right now, be commercially competitive. Other sources say that Hawaii's electricity consumption is a few TWh/year. So, downsize a rectenna to just Hawaii's needs. This is not the exact same billion dollar rectenna that would be used for larger projects. (It very much wouldn't, unless Hawaii's power grid gets grid-tied to anywhere else. That it isn't is part of why electricity costs so much there.) Unless you still maintain that the mere existence of a market that would pay $0.30/kWh would kill all solar power satellites forever? Because if so - and a literal reading of your words says that you are in fact making that claim - then the existence of Hawaii's power market says solar power satellites can never work, according to your logic. We can assume, with good enough probability, that Hawaii will continue to be inhabited and continue to need power for many decades to come, and with only slightly lower probability that its power rates will continue to be substantially higher than most of the continental US's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:37:50 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 16:37:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: <59bbd23c-791e-23ea-9388-3d4d309e2b42@disroot.org> References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> <59bbd23c-791e-23ea-9388-3d4d309e2b42@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:20?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:42?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Ok, let's do it like this then. Can someone on the list please > provide me > > with Musks email and phone number and I'll talk to him about it. ;) > > > > I tried that some years ago for a different project, actually. He has > bodyguards and people to act as filters. You have to get by > > them to talk to him, if he doesn't initiate contact (which requires that > he have heard of you). Look up "Musk inner circle" to find > > some of them, select one you think you could pitch this to, and try to > find their contact info. > > Bodyguard? Did you try to physically approach? ;) Not I, but I know that others have. I only tried going through certain inner circle members I was able to encounter at conferences. (Alas for timing, though. Had I known what would happen, I would have signed up to work for Paypal early on; I'd just gotten out of college when they were founded as Confinity or X.com, and would likely have fit one of their job openings. Then again, if I'd done that, I wouldn't need Musk's money.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:40:03 2024 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:40:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90C16CF8-8C46-4580-B7D7-8DCE0270CD22@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2024, at 11:42?AM, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: Well, let's release Musk on it, and I'm sure it will be done in a couple >> of years! =) >> Musk is free to pursue it already. >> Notice that he isn't actively pursuing it. >> If some power company were to approach SpaceX about setting up such a thing, using the money involved to subsidize a high launch rate >> the way Starlink has subsidized a high launch rate for the Falcons, then maybe. But the scale of money would seem to exceed what >> even Musk is free to drop on it. > > Ok, let's do it like this then. Can someone on the list please provide me with Musks email and phone number and I'll talk to him about it. ;)_______________________________________________ Social media like X (formerly known as Twitter) and Quora might be a good way to get his attention around the gatekeepers. In those spaces, he sometimes interacts directly with people. Overall, while I don?t agree with his planetary settlement idea ? being allergic to gravity wells ? I think the knock in effect of his team continuing to drive down the price of going to space will be to make ever more space projects financially feasible. Power sats, maybe not in the short run? but think of the older proposals of mining lunar regolith to build them. Something like Starship might make mining that stuff within our reach in a decade or less. Regards, Dan From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:44:15 2024 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:44:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4856A68A-EB89-4683-904C-2555E675F2E8@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2024, at 12:45?PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > The only way I can now see it being done is for a government to back > it. If heat was killing a million people per year, that *might* be > enough motivation Or maybe not. > > Keith Regarding your last point: only if the million per year count to the ruling class. After all, it seems like wars, famine, disease kill lots of people and that hardly registers in, say, the US ? unless some faction in the ruling class cares. Regards, Dan From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 22:01:31 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:01:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:25?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 3:44?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 4:12?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> >> > before the program is generating revenue, makes it economically infeasible. No one with the requisite finances will believe that heavily in the revenue until after a small scale prototype is demonstrating, >> >> You can't scale a power satellite down for beans. It is a feature of >> microwave optics (diffraction). > > > You can. It may be substantially less efficient, but it does work - at all - at smaller volumes. Adrian, if you can beat this problem, you will get nothing but praise from me. I worked on power satellites for ten years and made no progress on the scale-down problem whatsoever. >> > even at significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, perhaps). >> >> That would just kill the idea. > > How does the existence of limited markets that can pay higher amounts for the same service kill the idea? Let's put numbers on this. What power level is a limited market? "Not being able to deploy the same rate to the general market" is not an answer: at most, you just ignore those limited markets, but I'm saying there is a way for a beginning, not-yet-as-efficient service to take advantage of these markets. > >> >> The rectenna is going to cost the same, a billion >> >> bucks. > > > I can build a rectenna for less than $100. Not $100B, but $100. > > It's a tiny little thing that might not even handle a kW. But it would handle 1 W, and cost less than a billion bucks. I have held such things, Paul Jaffe made them maybe ten years ago. But a one km power beam from GEO at 2.45 GHz spreads out to 10 by 14 km. The center beam power density for 5 GW is 230 W/m^2, Our imaginary one rocket power sat would supply about .46 W/m^2. How much power do you propose to supply? > Likewise, ordinary satellite antennas receive far-smaller-than-power grade "beamed power" from orbit all the time, and very few if any cost a billion dollars. > > Your assertion that any rectenna, regardless of the power level involved, will cost a billion bucks is blatantly false. It's $200/kW. I worked this out 10-15 years ago. It is fine if you don't like my number. What do you calculate as a rectenna cost? > Likewise, your assertion that it is impossible to scale down a power satellite because of physics is questionable at best. They don't scale down very well, but "not for beans" and "literally impossible" are quite distinct. I agree. We get power, a miniscule amount, from the communication satellites. Great for communication, useless for power. > You would be well served to toss out these notions of "impossible" and "can never under any possible circumstances be economical", and instead to actually present numbers. I know the numbers. What do you want to know? Of course, you need to ask what purpose a power satellite s for. > For instance, https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ shows that current electricity rates in Hawaii is above $0.30/kWh and has been for over a year. Consider the spread between generation cost and retail. Most of what we pay in CA is for distribution. > That is to say: a system that could serve all of Hawaii's needs and charge $0.30/kWh would, right now, be commercially competitive. Other sources say that Hawaii's electricity consumption is a few TWh/year. > > So, downsize a rectenna to just Hawaii's needs. This is not the exact same billion dollar rectenna that would be used for larger projects. (It very much wouldn't, unless Hawaii's power grid gets grid-tied to anywhere else. That it isn't is part of why electricity costs so much there.) I have seen an analysis. Don't remember the details, but we could regenerate them right here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Hawaii Installed capacity is right at 3 GW and an average of around 1.07 GW. So whatever cost you get from the capital cost will only be generating revenue about 1/3rd of the time unless you can generate another market. Fairly soon you need to ask where do you put the rectenna. Continue? Keith > Unless you still maintain that the mere existence of a market that would pay $0.30/kWh would kill all solar power satellites forever? Because if so - and a literal reading of your words says that you are in fact making that claim - then the existence of Hawaii's power market says solar power satellites can never work, according to your logic. We can assume, with good enough probability, that Hawaii will continue to be inhabited and continue to need power for many decades to come, and with only slightly lower probability that its power rates will continue to be substantially higher than most of the continental US's. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 23:43:28 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 19:43:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 6:01?PM Keith Henson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:25?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 3:44?PM Keith Henson > wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 4:12?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > >> wrote: > >> > >> > before the program is generating revenue, makes it economically > infeasible. No one with the requisite finances will believe that heavily > in the revenue until after a small scale prototype is demonstrating, > >> > >> You can't scale a power satellite down for beans. It is a feature of > >> microwave optics (diffraction). > > > > You can. It may be substantially less efficient, but it does work - at > all - at smaller volumes. > > Adrian, if you can beat this problem, you will get nothing but praise > from me. I worked on power satellites for ten years and made no > progress on the scale-down problem whatsoever. > Caltech did it for less than $1B: https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/in-a-first-caltechs-space-solar-power-demonstrator-wirelessly-transmits-power-in-space > >> > even at significantly lower economic efficiency ($0.10-0.50 per kWh, > perhaps). > >> > >> That would just kill the idea. > > > > How does the existence of limited markets that can pay higher amounts > for the same service kill the idea? > > Let's put numbers on this. What power level is a limited market? > How about Hawaii? They're isolated from the grid, have a total consumption far less than all of humanity's, and have high power prices. > But a one km power beam from GEO at 2.45 GHz spreads out to 10 by 14 > km. The center beam power density for 5 GW is 230 W/m^2, Our > imaginary one rocket power sat would supply about .46 W/m^2. How much > power do you propose to supply? > I wouldn't put it out at GEO, partly because the beam dissipates so much. I'd put it in LEO. Granted, the power would be intermittent from one power satellite; for a prototype, this would be okay, but one of the first upgrades once the prototype had proven itself would be to make a constellation, enough that the rectenna would always have one satellite serving it. Meanwhile, the individual satellites store up power as they orbit, downlinking one orbit's worth of power during one pass. The inefficiencies of this seem quite a bit less than the inefficiencies of beaming all the way from GEO. Also, running the numbers for beam divergence, even if I did start at GEO (35,768,000 m to Earth's surface) with 2.45 GHz (about 0.1224 m wavelength), a beam that starts 1,000 meters wide is only about 6.3 km wide at the Earth's surface, not 10-14. Beam divergence: ? = 1.22 * ? / D = 1.22 * 0.1224 / 1,000 ? 0.00149 radians ? = beam divergence angle ? = wavelength D = initial beam diameter Beam width at Earth's surface: Width = 100 + 2 * 35,768,000 * tan(0.00149/2) ? 6,341 meters An initial beam of 2,310 m gets about 4,622.192 m at the surface, which appears to be an optimum: increasing or decreasing the initial beam width increases the surface area. Getting down to 1,000 km orbit gives an optimum starting beam of 390 m, for a received surface width of 772.89 m. 500 km orbit (avoiding the worst of low-altitude orbital decay) gives 273 m starting beam and 546.4945 m surface width - so that's less than 1% as much rectenna needed, whether you're just capturing the center or the entire beam. If the initial rectenna did cost $1B, then this is a few tens of millions of dollars (not straight 1%, as economies of scale work in reverse), which is far more fundable for a prototype (not counting the cost of the satellite, granted, though the center beam power density would be significantly higher too). > > Your assertion that any rectenna, regardless of the power level > involved, will cost a billion bucks is blatantly false. > > It's $200/kW. I worked this out 10-15 years ago. It is fine if you > don't like my number. What do you calculate as a rectenna cost? > Nonlinear. Something that costs $200 to set up a unit that does 1 kW, costs much less than $200,000,000 to set up a unit that does 1 GW. Economies of scale set in. > > For instance, > https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ shows that > current electricity rates in Hawaii is above $0.30/kWh and has been for > over a year. > > Consider the spread between generation cost and retail. Most of what > we pay in CA is for distribution. > True, but you were talking retail cost (what the utility using these rectennas and satellites gets paid), right? That $0.30/kWh is retail, so far as I can tell. > > That is to say: a system that could serve all of Hawaii's needs and > charge $0.30/kWh would, right now, be commercially competitive. Other > sources say that Hawaii's electricity consumption is a few TWh/year. > > > > So, downsize a rectenna to just Hawaii's needs. This is not the exact > same billion dollar rectenna that would be used for larger projects. (It > very much wouldn't, unless Hawaii's power grid gets grid-tied to anywhere > else. That it isn't is part of why electricity costs so much there.) > > I have seen an analysis. Don't remember the details, but we could > regenerate them right here. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Hawaii > > Installed capacity is right at 3 GW and an average of around 1.07 GW. > So whatever cost you get from the capital cost will only be generating > revenue about 1/3rd of the time unless you can generate another > market. Fairly soon you need to ask where do you put the rectenna. > Where do you get "an average of around 1.07 GW"? I don't see any discussion of base vs. peak loads in that article. That said, in practice you wouldn't be offsetting literally everything right away. Base load service is far more economical than peak load, and energy storage solutions are being investigated to take care of the discrepancy - but investigating power storage (on the ground, anyway) gets away from discussing the power satellite system itself. I assume your calculations are primarily to serve base loads, which generate around the clock (or close to it). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 00:18:03 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:18:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:19?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:15?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> >> I don't expect you to understand or agree with this. Most people have >> a strong bias against the idea that they have such evolved internal >> psychological traits. Probably too much insight is bad for your genes. >> >> Keith > > > Yes Keith you are special and smart and everything you think is correct. I could be dead wrong about humans being subject to evolutionary psychology, but if I am, many people I respect such as Leda Cosmides, John Tooby, Michael Gazzaniga, and a long list of people here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology are in the same boat. > If someone doesn?t agree with you it means they are lacking insight. That could be. It bothered me for at least a decade that so few people were unable to absorb an EP worldview. it seemed obvious to me. It finally dawned on me that we have probably been selected not to have a lot of insight. > Understanding why this is insane might be above your emotional pay grade. I feel like the disdain you have for black-and-white thinkers like the MAGA people You miss the point. It's not what they think at all, but the whole class of beliefs (memes) that people who think they have a bleak future adopt. it is human race-wide. Would you prefer examples like Germany in the 1920s or Reanda or Cambodia? Under some conditions, it makes sense for humans to circulate xenophobic memes and even go to war. > could be a reflection of your own obstinate black-and-white thinking. Where they say ?it?s just the deep state!? like a broken record, you chime in on every post about US politics with ?it?s just war genes!?. I?m sure that?s a facet of it, but the desire to see these people as some kind of monolithic other tribe who behaves along rudimentary lines is the same thing you?re accusing them of doing. You are making it sound like I blame them. I don't. They have no more control over what they are doing than Patty Hearst or Elizabeth Smart did in how they responded to being captured. https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding You might as well blame someone for pulling their hand back from a hot surface > It?s documented that people?s thinking becomes more rigid with age?what is the evolutionary explanation for that? Have not thought about it. EP makes the general statement that all animal behavior is the result of something that was directly selected or a side effect of something that was selected. From the Wikipedia article. " Evolutionary psychology is a theoretical approach in psychology that examines cognition and behavior from a modern evolutionary perspective.[1][2] It seeks to identify human psychological adaptations with regards to the ancestral problems they evolved to solve. In this framework, psychological traits and mechanisms are either functional products of natural and sexual selection or non-adaptive by-products of other adaptive traits.[3][4] " . . . "The theories and findings of evolutionary psychology have applications in many fields, including economics, environment, health, law, management, psychiatry, politics, and literature.[10][11]" If you are going after me for being an old fart, I got into EP when I was about 60. My last paper on this topic was 2006. (I have a recent short paper if you want to read it.) Abstract: Behavior, including human behavior related to war, is no less subject to Darwinian selection than physical traits. Behavior results from physical brain modules constructed by genes and environmental input. The environmental detection and operation of behavioral switches leading to wars are also under evolutionary selection. War behavior in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness (EEA) was under positive selection when the alternative (starvation) was worse than war. The model is then applied in an attempt to explain the behavioral difference between chimpanzees and bonobos with additional thoughts on the KhoeSan People of Southern Africa. > Maybe a kind of ?if it ain?t broke, don?t fix it? imperative because for eons the stuff you learned at birth was just as relevant when you were older? But now with how quickly information changes, older people end up not being able to adjust their perspectives to new information. It?s just in your genes :) I commented on this in an interview. RU SIRIUS: When did you first realize that you were a novelty-seeker? KEITH HENSON: When I was about 8 years old. My mother read Robert A. Heinlein's Farmer in the Sky to me. I was enthralled and eventually read every published Heinlein (and many other SF authors) I could find. She could not have imagined that 25 years later I would be giving a paper at Princeton University, "Closed Ecosystems of High Agricultural Yield," that was partly based on descriptions in Farmer in the Sky. RU: What are some of the qualities that people can notice perhaps even in children that might indicate a progressive, neophiliac potential? KH: That's a hard one because most kids are interested in new things. The rare person is still interested in new advances when they are adults. There is possibly a correlation with intelligence. In any case, you have to be fairly bright to keep learning and changing attitudes as you get older. https://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/05/a-reprint-of-an-interview-with-keith-henson-by-ru-sirius-2/ > I fail to see how this isn?t as valid of a point as yours. Or are you special and not bound to genetic determination? It?s just silly. The last chapter of The Selfish Gene is on memes, and the last sentence is ?We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.? > If you use these psychological weapons against others they?re bound to get turned against you. I doubt you can hold a patch on the clam cult. They spent a few million going after me. > At least John?s statistics about religion and education are accurate. Poverty isn?t a determinant of political leaning in nearly as significant way as you propose. Again, you have completely missed the point. It is not where you are on the income scale but how you view the future that trips the behavior on or off. The IRA lost population support because the future looked brighter with only a small change in actual income. Keith > And everyone in the world is unsure about the future. Except perhaps the rich people who will be better off either way, and they?re split between D and R. And probably more R, so it doesn?t even make any sense your way. > > This isn?t even to mention that perhaps some stone age responses to chaos are actually still useful. Lower immigration for example? Maintains the status quo to make planning easier, less mouths to feed, less cultural disruption in general. If a country is in chaos why would you want more people there? > > Your hypothesis is easy to show counterexamples against, and it is also formed by putting the cart before the horse wherein you have personally decided which political opinions are vestigial troglodyte responses, and then you find a way to apply your skewed and oversimplified evopsych model by conjuring up a uniting factor for the group you disagree with. It?s all backwards. And like I mentioned, possibly due to your obstinacy genes kicking in, you refuse to even consider other opinions. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyEwPHoRr7jxx8dXFB8tW7LKg4E0aPQ6i_qVGsvgeHLfxA%40mail.gmail.com. From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 22 00:41:55 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:41:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] drought has ended! Message-ID: <007801db241b$325e0120$971a0360$@rainier66.com> Woohoooo! GIMPS announced today that a new Mersenne prime has been found: https://www.mersenne.org/primes/?press=M136279841 We were in a really long Mersenne prime drought. Six years since the last discovery. Congratulations everyone! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 04:21:48 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 21:21:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:44?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 6:01?PM Keith Henson wrote: snip > > Caltech did it for less than $1B: https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/in-a-first-caltechs-space-solar-power-demonstrator-wirelessly-transmits-power-in-space > Caltech has not delivered a cent worth of power. If you want to know about the topic, go to the google group Power Satellite Economics and search for "fraud." >> snip > > Beam divergence: > ? = 1.22 * ? / D = 1.22 * 0.1224 / 1,000 ? 0.00149 radians > ? = beam divergence angle > ? = wavelength > D = initial beam diameter > > Beam width at Earth's surface: > Width = 100 + 2 * 35,768,000 * tan(0.00149/2) ? 6,341 meters I think you have the half angle but it does not matter. snip >> It's $200/kW. I worked this out 10-15 years ago. It is fine if you >> don't like my number. What do you calculate as a rectenna cost? > > Nonlinear. Something that costs $200 to set up a unit that does 1 kW, costs much less than $200,000,000 to set up a unit that does 1 GW. Economies of scale set in. It is 5 GW. How much do you think a 5 GW rectenna will cost? snip > Where do you get "an average of around 1.07 GW"? net generation of 9,337 GWh Divide by hours in a year to get the average load. I don't see any discussion of base vs. peak loads in that article. > > That said, in practice you wouldn't be offsetting literally everything right away. Base load service is far more economical than peak load, and energy storage solutions are being investigated to take care of the discrepancy - but investigating power storage (on the ground, anyway) gets away from discussing the power satellite system itself. I assume your calculations are primarily to serve base loads, which generate around the clock (or close to it). Right. For providing power half the time, the cost per kWh would double. If you work out the cost of a rectenna, please make it public. Best of luck. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 04:48:58 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 21:48:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:22?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > I just think you are being reductive and elitist. You should do some LSD or something. I will skip responding to this. I have a nice guy reputation to uphold. > Clam cult? For those two words, 4th down in a google search. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Clambake Keith > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 8:18?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:19?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:15?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't expect you to understand or agree with this. Most people have >> >> a strong bias against the idea that they have such evolved internal >> >> psychological traits. Probably too much insight is bad for your genes. >> >> >> >> Keith >> > >> > >> > Yes Keith you are special and smart and everything you think is correct. >> >> I could be dead wrong about humans being subject to evolutionary >> psychology, but if I am, many people I respect such as Leda Cosmides, >> John Tooby, Michael Gazzaniga, and a long list of people here: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology are in the same >> boat. >> >> > If someone doesn?t agree with you it means they are lacking insight. >> >> That could be. It bothered me for at least a decade that so few >> people were unable to absorb an EP worldview. it seemed obvious to >> me. It finally dawned on me that we have probably been selected not >> to have a lot of insight. >> >> > Understanding why this is insane might be above your emotional pay grade. I feel like the disdain you have for black-and-white thinkers like the MAGA people >> >> You miss the point. It's not what they think at all, but the whole >> class of beliefs (memes) that people who think they have a bleak >> future adopt. it is human race-wide. Would you prefer examples like >> Germany in the 1920s or Reanda or Cambodia? Under some conditions, it >> makes sense for humans to circulate xenophobic memes and even go to >> war. >> >> > could be a reflection of your own obstinate black-and-white thinking. Where they say ?it?s just the deep state!? like a broken record, you chime in on every post about US politics with ?it?s just war genes!?. I?m sure that?s a facet of it, but the desire to see these people as some kind of monolithic other tribe who behaves along rudimentary lines is the same thing you?re accusing them of doing. >> >> You are making it sound like I blame them. I don't. They have no >> more control over what they are doing than Patty Hearst or Elizabeth >> Smart did in how they responded to being captured. >> https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding You might as well >> blame someone for pulling their hand back from a hot surface >> >> > It?s documented that people?s thinking becomes more rigid with age?what is the evolutionary explanation for that? >> >> Have not thought about it. EP makes the general statement that all >> animal behavior is the result of something that was directly selected >> or a side effect of something that was selected. From the Wikipedia >> article. >> >> " Evolutionary psychology is a theoretical approach in psychology that >> examines cognition and behavior from a modern evolutionary >> perspective.[1][2] It seeks to identify human psychological >> adaptations with regards to the ancestral problems they evolved to >> solve. In this framework, psychological traits and mechanisms are >> either functional products of natural and sexual selection or >> non-adaptive by-products of other adaptive traits.[3][4] " >> . . . >> >> "The theories and findings of evolutionary psychology have >> applications in many fields, including economics, environment, health, >> law, management, psychiatry, politics, and literature.[10][11]" >> >> If you are going after me for being an old fart, I got into EP when I >> was about 60. My last paper on this topic was 2006. (I have a recent >> short paper if you want to read it.) >> >> Abstract: Behavior, including human behavior related to war, is no >> less subject to Darwinian selection than physical traits. Behavior >> results from physical brain modules constructed by genes and >> environmental input. The environmental detection and operation of >> behavioral switches leading to wars are also under evolutionary >> selection. War behavior in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness >> (EEA) was under positive selection when the alternative (starvation) >> was worse than war. The model is then applied in an attempt to explain >> the behavioral difference between chimpanzees and bonobos with >> additional thoughts on the KhoeSan People of Southern Africa. >> >> > Maybe a kind of ?if it ain?t broke, don?t fix it? imperative because for eons the stuff you learned at birth was just as relevant when you were older? But now with how quickly information changes, older people end up not being able to adjust their perspectives to new information. It?s just in your genes :) >> >> I commented on this in an interview. >> >> RU SIRIUS: When did you first realize that you were a novelty-seeker? >> >> KEITH HENSON: When I was about 8 years old. My mother read Robert A. >> Heinlein's Farmer in the Sky to me. I was enthralled and eventually >> read every published Heinlein (and many other SF authors) I could >> find. She could not have imagined that 25 years later I would be >> giving a paper at Princeton University, "Closed Ecosystems of High >> Agricultural Yield," that was partly based on descriptions in Farmer >> in the Sky. >> >> RU: What are some of the qualities that people can notice perhaps even >> in children that might indicate a progressive, neophiliac potential? >> >> KH: That's a hard one because most kids are interested in new things. >> The rare person is still interested in new advances when they are >> adults. There is possibly a correlation with intelligence. In any >> case, you have to be fairly bright to keep learning and changing >> attitudes as you get older. >> >> https://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/05/a-reprint-of-an-interview-with-keith-henson-by-ru-sirius-2/ >> >> > I fail to see how this isn?t as valid of a point as yours. Or are you special and not bound to genetic determination? It?s just silly. >> >> The last chapter of The Selfish Gene is on memes, and the last >> sentence is ?We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the >> selfish replicators.? >> >> > If you use these psychological weapons against others they?re bound to get turned against you. >> >> I doubt you can hold a patch on the clam cult. They spent a few >> million going after me. >> >> > At least John?s statistics about religion and education are accurate. Poverty isn?t a determinant of political leaning in nearly as significant way as you propose. >> >> Again, you have completely missed the point. It is not where you are >> on the income scale but how you view the future that trips the >> behavior on or off. The IRA lost population support because the >> future looked brighter with only a small change in actual income. >> >> >> Keith >> >> > And everyone in the world is unsure about the future. Except perhaps the rich people who will be better off either way, and they?re split between D and R. And probably more R, so it doesn?t even make any sense your way. >> > >> > This isn?t even to mention that perhaps some stone age responses to chaos are actually still useful. Lower immigration for example? Maintains the status quo to make planning easier, less mouths to feed, less cultural disruption in general. If a country is in chaos why would you want more people there? >> > >> > Your hypothesis is easy to show counterexamples against, and it is also formed by putting the cart before the horse wherein you have personally decided which political opinions are vestigial troglodyte responses, and then you find a way to apply your skewed and oversimplified evopsych model by conjuring up a uniting factor for the group you disagree with. It?s all backwards. And like I mentioned, possibly due to your obstinacy genes kicking in, you refuse to even consider other opinions. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyEwPHoRr7jxx8dXFB8tW7LKg4E0aPQ6i_qVGsvgeHLfxA%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB4kFVq6HFsRLPpJ6BVJvdcXK9-AyL0ihrKfo_H%3DDpKBWw%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyHpe2sfesAtZhHjRTav1NnES8idWjnD6ZTG2bT6PMpfBA%40mail.gmail.com. From efc at disroot.org Tue Oct 22 09:24:54 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 11:24:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: <11befb71-0e54-b94a-9073-c634d859b824@disroot.org> <59bbd23c-791e-23ea-9388-3d4d309e2b42@disroot.org> Message-ID: <5ee5eb7d-8f1a-3d2e-ba5f-3c2c8a1abc36@disroot.org> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:20?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:42?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > >? ? ? ?Ok, let's do it like this then. Can someone on the list please provide me > >? ? ? ?with Musks email and phone number and I'll talk to him about it. ;) > > > > I tried that some years ago for?a different?project, actually.? He has bodyguards and people to act as filters.? You > have to get by > > them to talk to him, if he doesn't initiate contact (which requires that he have heard of you).? Look up "Musk inner > circle" to find > > some of them, select one you think you could pitch this to, and try to find their contact info. > > Bodyguard? Did you try to physically approach? ;) > > > Not I, but I know that others have.? I only tried going through certain inner circle members I was able to encounter at conferences. > > (Alas for timing, though.? Had I known what would happen, I would have signed up to work for Paypal early on; I'd just gotten out of > college when they were founded as?Confinity or X.com, and would likely have fit one of their job openings.? Then again, if I'd done > that, I wouldn't need Musk's money.) Hindsight is 20/20! I've turned down at least 2 startups that would have resulted in 1+ MUSD payouts after 5 and 10 years. But such is life! ;) From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 10:04:13 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 11:04:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <000901db2350$2d768720$88639560$@rainier66.com> References: <000901db2350$2d768720$88639560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 01:30, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Oh that landing is just so cool, I could watch that a thousand times: > https://twitter.com/i/status/1848028795489436039 > spike > _______________________________________________ Follow-up enthusiastic article with many photos. Next year, they will probably try to catch the Starship upper stage as well. This will be much more difficult, as it will be returning from high-speed orbital flight. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 22 14:30:08 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 07:30:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <001701db248e$551b4c90$ff51e5b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901db2350$2d768720$88639560$@rainier66.com> <001701db248e$551b4c90$ff51e5b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01db248e$e5ee7e90$b1cb7bb0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] musk catches one On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 01:30, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Oh that landing is just so cool, I could watch that a thousand times: > https://twitter.com/i/status/1848028795489436039 > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Follow-up enthusiastic article with many photos. Next year, they will probably try to catch the Starship upper stage as well. This will be much more difficult, as it will be returning from high-speed orbital flight. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK I agree, partially. Catching an upper stage might be more difficult but not because of its having been at much higher speed. That extra speed is scrubbed off during re-entry. I agree it is a very difficult engineering task because weight is much more critical on the much smaller and lighter orbiter. So the weight penalty of stanchions will be very significant, and the margins much closer, with regard to getting back with enough fuel to do that super-cool backwards landing trick. spike From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 17:30:33 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 13:30:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Super Heavy and Space Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 12:22?AM Keith Henson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 4:44?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Caltech did it for less than $1B: > https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/in-a-first-caltechs-space-solar-power-demonstrator-wirelessly-transmits-power-in-space > > > Caltech has not delivered a cent worth of power. If you want to know > about the topic, go to the google group Power Satellite Economics and > search for "fraud." > It was not intended to deliver. It was intended to beam something - anything, no matter how small - and it did just that. Denouncing something as fraud, for not delivering what it never intended to deliver, does not seem to be a correct usage of "fraud". >> It's $200/kW. I worked this out 10-15 years ago. It is fine if you > >> don't like my number. What do you calculate as a rectenna cost? > > > > Nonlinear. Something that costs $200 to set up a unit that does 1 kW, > costs much less than $200,000,000 to set up a unit that does 1 GW. > Economies of scale set in. > > It is 5 GW. How much do you think a 5 GW rectenna will cost? > A simple way to measure economies of scale like this, is to factor in a discount on the per-unit cost for each doubling of units. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects suggests a minimum of 10% (usually closer to 20%) per doubling, at least for labor costs - which would seem to account for enough of this case that at least 10% of the total cost seems warranted. (Ordering the raw materials in bulk also reduces per unit costs, which is factored into this. There is of course a limit, but even a 5 GW rectenna seems unlikely to hit that limit.) So if it's $200 for 1 kW, getting to 4 GW (for sake of simplicity) is 22 doublings. 0.9 to the 22nd is about 0.098, or $19.7 per kW; times 4,000,000 makes just under $78.8M, or times 5,000,000 (to answer for 5 GW) is just under $98.5M. Which is still a lot, but much less than $1B. And that's conservatively assuming only 10% per doubling. 20% per doubling comes to about $1.48/kW for a 4 or 5 GW project, for a total of about $7.38M for 5 GW. This is a very, very simplistic modeling of economies of scale. You might come up with a more refined one starting from that article. But assuming that, just because 1 unit of something that's being custom manufactured would cost $X to make, 5,000,000 units will cost 5,000,000 * $X is usually incorrect. > Where do you get "an average of around 1.07 GW"? > > net generation of 9,337 GWh Divide by hours in a year to get the average > load. > That is a misleading approach. See again: "base load" vs. "peak load". There are sources of power in the mix that deliver relatively constant amounts (some only at certain times of day), and others that scale up or down depending on demand at that time. It is not the case that all power systems in the mix always, constantly, and only deliver 1/3 of their rated capacity. For providing power half the time, the cost per kWh would double. > Like so. If you have a system that delivers peak, not just base, load then there are further operational considerations. Solar power satellites can, quite easily, deliver peak loads if configured to do so, but the operational considerations - including payback - differ from the constant load you've been assuming. Constant load is how you measure base load only. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 17:46:11 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 10:46:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 4:49?AM John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 12:49?AM Keith Henson wrote: > >>> >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:22?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >>> > I just think you are being reductive and elitist. You should do some LSD or something. >> >> >> >I will skip responding to this. > > > I don't blame you one bit. > >> > I have a nice guy reputation to uphold. > > > And as far as I can tell you are indeed a nice guy. However I do think you're overestimating the power of Evolutionary Psychology, it can you give us a few broad trends and drives, such as a drive to reproduce, but it can't possibly give the details about how we should behave in every conceivable circumstance to achieve that goal because the entire human genome only contains 750 megs of information (3 billion base pairs, there are 4 bases and there are 8 bits per byte); and that is far FAR FAR too small to write a book of instructions about how to behave in all circumstances. So instead evolution invented an information processing device, the brain, to process the data it received from the senses and calculate the details of how to behave. Agree. But there is a lot of bias built into the brain constructed by genes. All the way from simple reflexes to our unease at walking along a cliff edge to the capture bonding behavior. It's not hard to understand how these came about through selection. > But sometimes those details weren't what Evolution had in mind, if Evolution had a mind, which it doesn't. Evolutionary Psychology alone cannot explain the invention of the condom, True. If for no other reason, latex was not part of the Stone Age environment. > and I don't think it can explain why Trump and his MAGA/QAnon form of irrationality metastasized in 2016 and not in some other year. If you go back much further, there were neo nazi upsurges in the Midwest that corresponded to economic downturns over decades. I wrote about these cases in the context of memes long before I ran into EP. But your point why then is valid. Self-amplifying memes might provide a random factor. To some extent, we don't know enough. For example, very few people are aware that there was a food shortage bad enough to stunt kids prior to the Civil War. Humans have been facing resource limitations for at least 100,000 years and solving them by going to war. Is this enough generations to have selected for the response? I think so, but if humans and war is an uncomfortable topic, we could switch to capture-bonding. Keith > John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis > swo > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3ZBdgDC%3D9c0zpdbUM9RXTZf1%3DUAy98xqCDtQbZDYsJZQ%40mail.gmail.com. From bronto at pobox.com Tue Oct 22 15:39:18 2024 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 08:39:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one In-Reply-To: <000901db2350$2d768720$88639560$@rainier66.com> References: <000901db2350$2d768720$88639560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7f470776-f044-4db9-8fa4-0c76a06b5536@pobox.com> On 2024-10-20 17:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Oh that landing is just so cool, I could watch that a thousand times: > https://twitter.com/i/status/1848028795489436039 What's the other picture there? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 07:11:01 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 00:11:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 10:10?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > A strung-out doper, is that me? Please, don't be so sensitive. I don't know anything about you beyond your comments here, like the one about LSD. My comments were not directed to any specific person. I was talking about the common final brain reward pathway that I described in an article 20 years ago. But consider, do you think people are rewarded by what they experience in cults? Are they rewarded by the chemical effects on their brains of addictive drugs? Do you think there is anything in common between these rewards? I don't know if you have ever had experience with cult members. I have had with the scientology cult. I have also had some experience with drug addicts. They are remarkably similar. I had no idea of why for years. "Typical behavior for both includes draining bank accounts and education funds, selling or mortgaging property, neglecting children, destroying relations with family and friends, and losing interest in anything except the drug or cult. (Not all people become this irresponsible on either cults or drugs, but many do.) " [from the article] > For fuck?s sake. I pity people like you. You?re just as much of an NPC as the people you seem to consider mindless animals at the whims of their most base urges. You just know more trivia. I didn't know that trivia, had to look it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPC_(meme) Is that your intended meaning? Given my well-known history, can you make a case for me being non-player character? Also seems risky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPC_(meme)#2023_stabbing > People like you guys are a perfect model of where I don?t want to end up intellectually as I age?obstinate, close-minded, just saying the same shit over and over at every opportunity. Acting like you want discussion but really just wanting someone to listen to you, while imagining you?re above it all. Aren?t you trained in the sciences? Since you ask, BSEE, perhaps a dozen papers and articles. Senior life Member, IEEE. Seven patents. Known for founding the L5 Society. Refugee in Canada for a few years. Do you have a web page? I can't figure out which one you might be. > Didn?t you ever learn the Socratic method? You would stand to learn a lot from some of the people who you are talking about as if they are children who have no control of or consideration over their behavior. I will refrain from comment Keith > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 11:49?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 12:34?PM John Clark wrote:> >> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 2:58?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> > >> >> > these people don?t have behaviors that are predicted by the oversimplified models you give. >> > >> > >> > I give? I disagree with Keith, I think his models are oversimplified. I think there must be other reasons, in addition to evolutionary ones, that have turned Trump supporters into such gigantic jackasses, reasons that I do not pretend to understand and reasons that I don't believe you understand either. In fact even Trump supporters don't seem to understand why they are Trump supporters, >> >> That's typical of people under the influence of such evolved >> psychological traits. The killers in Rwanda don't understand what >> happened when they killed their neighbors. Lots of baffled testimony >> before the reconciliation commission. Likewise, Patty Hearst was at a >> loss to understand what happened to her. It makes sense in >> evolutionary terms because (if you use the Yanomamo. numbers) around >> 10% of women in prehistory times were captured. Those who were able >> to bond with the group that captured them became our ancestors. Those >> who did not became breakfast. :-) That's a hell of a genetic >> selection filter. >> >> > at least they can't coherently explain it to me and Darwin knows I've asked them, I begged them to do so since 2016 but all I get is random ravings about transsexual bathrooms, women in men's sports, and now Haitians eating cats. >> >> No surprise. You will not get a coherent conversation with a >> strung-out doper or a cult member either. I wrote a paper long ago on >> the common brain reward pathways of drugs and cults. (Credit to >> Kennita Watson who helped.) >> https://www.academia.edu/37893481/Sex_Drugs_and_Cults_An_evolutionary_psychology_perspective_on_why_and_how_cult_memes_get_a_drug_like_hold_on_people_and_what >> _might_be_done_to_mitigate_the_effects >> >> People in the Trump/MAGA/etc cult are rewarded at the brain reward >> circuit level by talking or otherwise interacting with others who >> share their meme sets. Attention is highly rewarding. It's why we >> post. >> >> I don't want to claim much credit here, I was just in a place where it >> was easy to pick the low-hanging fruit. >> >> Keith >> >> > Oh and yesterday Trump talked for 13 minutes about Arnold Palmer and the huge size of his penis, I don't know maybe that is somehow related, it's as good a theory as any. >> > >> > Or maybe it's just a sign that Trump is developing Alzheimers like his father did when he was about the same age. >> > >> >> > It is obvious that by saying ?reductive? I mean the general term and not the scientific term. >> > >> > >> > It's not obvious to me. Maybe by "general term" you just mean reductionism being performed badly, because obviously nobody wants that. >> > >> > John K Clark >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1avNnM6Zd73LaW3MFiiSuu5H8CnzMnnXevVOdpk0C5eQ%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB6rCdGO-o6h5d3m4fYNPmFqwSC7_vphNZj4EzssuUOXcw%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyEUmKUb5C_1%3Due0dhxDK8qe87Hb-ajfHHbbo%3Dy-iOo75w%40mail.gmail.com. From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 15:55:32 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:55:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drought has ended! In-Reply-To: <007801db241b$325e0120$971a0360$@rainier66.com> References: <007801db241b$325e0120$971a0360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 at 01:44, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Woohoooo! GIMPS announced today that a new Mersenne prime has been found: > https://www.mersenne.org/primes/?press=M136279841 > > We were in a really long Mersenne prime drought. Six years since the last discovery. > Congratulations everyone! > > spike > _______________________________________________ Article explains how Nvidia GPUs have taken over the computing tasks from Intel CPUs. Quotes: 41-million-digit prime crunched by datacenter GPUs Former Nvidia engineer's discovery shows graphics compute can kick some serious ass Gavin Bonshor Wed 23 Oct 2024 This wasn't the CPU-heavy hunt for primes that we've typically seen. No, this time GPUs, ones more widely used for the datacenter, did all of the heavy lifting, leveraging their high levels of parallel processing power to crack the calculations that CPUs just can't keep up with. -------------------- BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 17:45:53 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:45:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re brave, that was not exactly what happened. I got a couple of academic publications out of the experience, but duking it out with the clam cult was not a good idea. I got sucked into the fight defending free speech. it wasn't a good idea personally. That cult is smaller now and has less influence, but it still had enough to get an FBI investigation into their internal prisons and human trafficking (slavery) shut down. Someone went after the FBI with FOIA. If you want to read the report, it is available. My big disappointment is that (so far) understanding the evolved psychological traits that make people vulnerable to cults has not resulted in interventions. Keith On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:28?AM John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 10:10?PM Will Steinberg spewed out this crap: > >> > I pity people like you. For fuck?s sake. I pity people like you. You?re just as much of an NPC as the people you seem to consider mindless animals at the whims of their most base urges. [ ...] People like you guys are a perfect model of where I don?t want to end up intellectually as I age. > > > By "people like you" and "people like you guys" I assume you're referring to Keith Henson and me, if so then I'm proud to be placed in the same category as Keith. And if there's one thing in this world you can be absolutely certain of its that if somebody says "I pity you" then you can be 100% certain that person is LYING and that they do NOT pity you because if they actually did pity you then saying it to the person you claim to pity would be the very last thing in the world you would want to say. It is even more obvious that the words spoken are a lie if they are uttered in the middle of a heated argument. > > Keith Henson then calmly, intelligently, politely and with more patience than I have responded to Will's blather with this: > >> > I don't know if you have ever had experience with cult members. I have had with the scientology cult. > > > Yes I agree, you've had some experience with the scientology cult, in fact I'd call that one of the great understatements of all time! And Keith, you're a braver man than I am, braver by far! I think Will Steinberg needs to educate himself, he might start by reading the Wikipedia article about you. By the way, I know it wasn't your fault but I always regretted that they changed the name of the L5 Society to the much more forgettable National Space Society. > > Keith Henson > > John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis > epb > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1csE40-5HVLT7J_mBkVdekSuJvSgH%2BD-Oa8-9VrNaLzw%40mail.gmail.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 20:52:29 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 13:52:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:05?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > Vulnerability to groupthink is common, it just happens that cults are small, insular groups. > > The insanity around covid and how crappy untested vaccines made by giant amoral pharma corporations A corporation that produces a billion or so doses of anything has to be giant. Amoral is a feature of corporations. "Crappy untested", the MRNA vaccines were and still are the best vaccines in the world at generating antibodies to covid. The testing was the best they could do given the time pressure of both people dying and the economic damage the pandemic was causing. A legitimate question is what you would have done differently? Keith PS Not everything on the Internet is true. were pushed on people with the threat of total ostracization and prevention from moving through society was cult-like. It was just a cult that was so big it became mainstream. > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:46?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> Re brave, that was not exactly what happened. I got a couple of >> academic publications out of the experience, but duking it out with >> the clam cult was not a good idea. I got sucked into the fight >> defending free speech. it wasn't a good idea personally. That cult >> is smaller now and has less influence, but it still had enough to get >> an FBI investigation into their internal prisons and human trafficking >> (slavery) shut down. >> >> Someone went after the FBI with FOIA. If you want to read the report, >> it is available. >> >> My big disappointment is that (so far) understanding the evolved >> psychological traits that make people vulnerable to cults has not >> resulted in interventions. >> >> Keith >> >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:28?AM John Clark wrote: >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 10:10?PM Will Steinberg spewed out this crap: >> > >> >> > I pity people like you. For fuck?s sake. I pity people like you. You?re just as much of an NPC as the people you seem to consider mindless animals at the whims of their most base urges. [ ...] People like you guys are a perfect model of where I don?t want to end up intellectually as I age. >> > >> > >> > By "people like you" and "people like you guys" I assume you're referring to Keith Henson and me, if so then I'm proud to be placed in the same category as Keith. And if there's one thing in this world you can be absolutely certain of its that if somebody says "I pity you" then you can be 100% certain that person is LYING and that they do NOT pity you because if they actually did pity you then saying it to the person you claim to pity would be the very last thing in the world you would want to say. It is even more obvious that the words spoken are a lie if they are uttered in the middle of a heated argument. >> > >> > Keith Henson then calmly, intelligently, politely and with more patience than I have responded to Will's blather with this: >> > >> >> > I don't know if you have ever had experience with cult members. I have had with the scientology cult. >> > >> > >> > Yes I agree, you've had some experience with the scientology cult, in fact I'd call that one of the great understatements of all time! And Keith, you're a braver man than I am, braver by far! I think Will Steinberg needs to educate himself, he might start by reading the Wikipedia article about you. By the way, I know it wasn't your fault but I always regretted that they changed the name of the L5 Society to the much more forgettable National Space Society. >> > >> > Keith Henson >> > >> > John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >> > epb >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1csE40-5HVLT7J_mBkVdekSuJvSgH%2BD-Oa8-9VrNaLzw%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7otObgqsWsW%3DnU364pJ_Y9z9s7tDxCGSmLCn8qmeb1eQ%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFdQSWZRYHwS0CT%2B%3Dh-4zR4euas4xCBgkXoAc2FO0pgMw%40mail.gmail.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 23:24:26 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:24:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Re=3A_Musk_set_up_100=2C000_Nvi?= =?utf-8?q?dia_H200_GPUs_in_19_days_-_Nvidia_says_=E2=80=8Bit_norma?= =?utf-8?q?lly_takes_4_years?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 2:53?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > What I would have done is be as clear as possible what the vaccine was, what level of testing had been done on it, possible side effects, etc.?informed consent. I followed the vaccine development closely at the time. It was clear to me, the testing program was well described. There are an infinity of possible side effects so you are asking the impossible. Informed consent makes no sense either. In the early days of the vaccine, there were people trying to get it out of turn who offered $25k. > Instead people were plied with free stuff Really? What kind of free stuff? Did I miss out? > and threatened with excommunication. That's news to me. How did they get the Pope involved? > They weren?t told what the vaccine even was. I knew at the time because I read into the open technical literature. It is moderately complicated. What would you do? Force a college-level knowledge on everyone who wanted to be vaccinated? > They weren?t told that the risks were magnitudes higher for the infirm, obese, and elderly. The risks of dying from the disease for these people were widely discussed at the time. > Essentially what happened is the government didn?t trust people (and, they are in the pocket of corporations), so they chose to lie and obfuscate in pursuit of public health, thinking ?if we are more clear about the risks of the vaccine and the risks of covid, people won?t get the vaccines, and we will have a crisis?. And I don?t like that kind of thinking. People should be allowed to see all the information and decide for themselves. Not to mention plenty of countries with less access to vaccines did just fine during the pandemic. Let's get specific, which countries? > Perhaps the outcomes in America have to do with the fact that 3/4 of adults are overweight and more than half of that group is obese. This is a problem in developed countries in general, along with an aging population. I think low-risk people shouldn?t have been pressured so hard to get the vaccines as long as they were being careful around others. And just how do you sort out the careful? > I have worked in a few virology labs. I have degrees in biology and economics, so I?m not just talking out my ass, if the pedigree means something to you. In that case, I am even more amazed at what you have said. Any papers on your work? Keith > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 4:53?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:05?PM Will Steinberg wrote: >> > >> > Vulnerability to groupthink is common, it just happens that cults are small, insular groups. >> > >> > The insanity around covid and how crappy untested vaccines made by giant amoral pharma corporations >> >> A corporation that produces a billion or so doses of anything has to >> be giant. Amoral is a feature of corporations. "Crappy untested", the >> MRNA vaccines were and still are the best vaccines in the world at >> generating antibodies to covid. The testing was the best they could >> do given the time pressure of both people dying and the economic >> damage the pandemic was causing. >> >> A legitimate question is what you would have done differently? >> >> Keith >> >> PS Not everything on the Internet is true. >> >> were pushed on people with the threat of total ostracization and >> prevention from moving through society was cult-like. It was just a >> cult that was so big it became mainstream. >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:46?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> >> >> Re brave, that was not exactly what happened. I got a couple of >> >> academic publications out of the experience, but duking it out with >> >> the clam cult was not a good idea. I got sucked into the fight >> >> defending free speech. it wasn't a good idea personally. That cult >> >> is smaller now and has less influence, but it still had enough to get >> >> an FBI investigation into their internal prisons and human trafficking >> >> (slavery) shut down. >> >> >> >> Someone went after the FBI with FOIA. If you want to read the report, >> >> it is available. >> >> >> >> My big disappointment is that (so far) understanding the evolved >> >> psychological traits that make people vulnerable to cults has not >> >> resulted in interventions. >> >> >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:28?AM John Clark wrote: >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 10:10?PM Will Steinberg spewed out this crap: >> >> > >> >> >> > I pity people like you. For fuck?s sake. I pity people like you. You?re just as much of an NPC as the people you seem to consider mindless animals at the whims of their most base urges. [ ...] People like you guys are a perfect model of where I don?t want to end up intellectually as I age. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > By "people like you" and "people like you guys" I assume you're referring to Keith Henson and me, if so then I'm proud to be placed in the same category as Keith. And if there's one thing in this world you can be absolutely certain of its that if somebody says "I pity you" then you can be 100% certain that person is LYING and that they do NOT pity you because if they actually did pity you then saying it to the person you claim to pity would be the very last thing in the world you would want to say. It is even more obvious that the words spoken are a lie if they are uttered in the middle of a heated argument. >> >> > >> >> > Keith Henson then calmly, intelligently, politely and with more patience than I have responded to Will's blather with this: >> >> > >> >> >> > I don't know if you have ever had experience with cult members. I have had with the scientology cult. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yes I agree, you've had some experience with the scientology cult, in fact I'd call that one of the great understatements of all time! And Keith, you're a braver man than I am, braver by far! I think Will Steinberg needs to educate himself, he might start by reading the Wikipedia article about you. By the way, I know it wasn't your fault but I always regretted that they changed the name of the L5 Society to the much more forgettable National Space Society. >> >> > >> >> > Keith Henson >> >> > >> >> > John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >> >> > epb >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1csE40-5HVLT7J_mBkVdekSuJvSgH%2BD-Oa8-9VrNaLzw%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7otObgqsWsW%3DnU364pJ_Y9z9s7tDxCGSmLCn8qmeb1eQ%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFdQSWZRYHwS0CT%2B%3Dh-4zR4euas4xCBgkXoAc2FO0pgMw%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB6K5yh%3D8VYGTTfYxRK_JaetrGBx0R6Uv%3D1y0OuVyDd2zA%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyG4hWzCcyS_Lee0Uq-s5kXkDNatm%3Dj-PgavN45HUFq31Q%40mail.gmail.com. From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 24 00:19:49 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:19:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3.4 seconds Message-ID: <009501db25aa$713f8d60$53bea820$@rainier66.com> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 at 01:44, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Woohoooo! GIMPS announced today that a new Mersenne prime has been found: > https://www.mersenne.org/primes/?press=M136279841 > >>. We were in a really long Mersenne prime drought. Six years since the last discovery. > Congratulations everyone! > > spike > _______________________________________________ >.Article explains how Nvidia GPUs have taken over the computing tasks from Intel CPUs. . -------------------- BillK BillK, the size of the largest known prime number was the same for about six years, then Monday it jumped to a new record. If you take the size of the two numbers over the time between discovery, you could say the size of the largest known prime doubled every 3.4 seconds during those six years. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 24 15:11:11 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 08:11:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the other picture Message-ID: <008801db2626$f67e32c0$e37a9840$@rainier66.com> On 2024-10-20 17:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>. Oh that landing is just so cool, I could watch that a thousand times: https://twitter.com/i/status/1848028795489436039 >>>What's the other picture there? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ I don't know Anton, looks like some guy fooling with a shotgun. Apparently he is having trouble with it, but I couldn't blame him: with a big old rocket booster landing right next to me, I would have trouble concentrating on the target. Can you imagine the noise level? With all that rocket racket, you couldn't even hear yourself shoot. I would just skip it that day, or come back later to finish the shooting match. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 15:34:19 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:34:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] the other picture In-Reply-To: <008801db2626$f67e32c0$e37a9840$@rainier66.com> References: <008801db2626$f67e32c0$e37a9840$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 16:14, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > >>>What's the other picture there? > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > > I don?t know Anton, looks like some guy fooling with a shotgun. Apparently he is having trouble with it, but I couldn?t blame him: with a big old rocket booster landing right next to me, I would have trouble concentrating on the target. Can you imagine the noise level? With all that rocket racket, you couldn?t even hear yourself shoot. I would just skip it that day, or come back later to finish the shooting match. > spike > _______________________________________________ I found the picture title on Twitter. BillK Jared Marsh @JaredMarsh816 13 Oct Tim Walz vs Elon Musk one couldn't load a shotgun and one just made History! --------------------------- From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 24 15:50:20 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 08:50:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after all this time, the truth finally comes out In-Reply-To: <008801db2626$f67e32c0$e37a9840$@rainier66.com> References: <008801db2626$f67e32c0$e37a9840$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000601db262c$6e5a74c0$4b0f5e40$@rainier66.com> Dang I wish I had originated this. I can just pass it along: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52804 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:36:29 2024 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 11:36:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Clocks art show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it possible that art comes first? ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: visit at sfmoma.org Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2024, 9:16?AM Subject: RE: Clocks art show To: ilsa Hi Lisa, Thank you for your inquiry. The exhibition you are searching is Christian Marclay, *The Clock *presented at SFMOMA in 2013. Please visit the link below for more information. Christian Marclay: The Clock ? SFMOMA Best, Eddie *visit at sfmoma.org * *San Francisco Museum of Modern ArtEnjoy our spacious, art-filled galleries. Tickets available at SFMOMA.org * visit at SFMOMA.org 151 Third Street | San Francisco, CA 94103 This message, together with any and all attachments, is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the original sender by email and delete the message, along with any attachments. *From:* ilsa *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:43 PM *To:* visit at sfmoma.org *Subject:* Clocks art show You don't often get email from ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com. Learn why this is important Howdy I'm trying to find out the name of and maybe references to a movies of clocks ticking away time and you could sit in a room and watch the clocks for a certain amount of time and there was a long line of people who wanted to get into the room and watch the clocks. How do I search for the name of the show who the artists were and what year it was in San Francisco? Thank you for any help you can give me, with respect and gratitude, ilsa bartlett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 25 06:08:05 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 23:08:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one, but of course he has hundreds of billions of dollars, so... sure, no problem Message-ID: <000f01db26a4$4218dfa0$c64a9ee0$@rainier66.com> > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > >>. some guy fooling with a shotgun. Apparently he is having trouble with it, but I couldn't blame him: with a big old rocket booster landing right next to me, I would have trouble concentrating on the target.> spike > _______________________________________________ . Jared Marsh @JaredMarsh816 13 Oct >.Tim Walz vs Elon Musk one couldn't load a shotgun and one just made History! --------------------------- _______________________________________________ Unfair comparison. We don't know if Elon can load a shotgun either. Besides that, perhaps Tim Walz (who is that?) could catch a first stage rocket too, if Tim Walz (?) owned Elon's hundreds of billions of dollars. A person can really look smart if one owns hundreds of billions of dollars. Hell I bet you and I could look smart too if we owned hundreds of billions of dollars. I am really looking forward to Elon's next cool engineering stunt, if the government allows him to continue. I have been a space watcher all my life. It feels like forward progress is finally being made. We haven't really made big advances in a long time. Now they are happening. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From herbster at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:43:47 2024 From: herbster at gmail.com (Ryan Herd) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 19:43:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Clocks art show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funnily enough I was just watching something similar created using Youtube videos: https://pudding.cool/projects/clocks/videos/ On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 19:37, ilsa via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is it possible that art comes first? > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: visit at sfmoma.org > Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2024, 9:16?AM > Subject: RE: Clocks art show > To: ilsa > > > Hi Lisa, > > Thank you for your inquiry. > > The exhibition you are searching is Christian Marclay, *The Clock *presented > at SFMOMA in 2013. > > Please visit the link below for more information. > > Christian Marclay: The Clock ? SFMOMA > > > > > Best, > > Eddie > > > > > > > > > *visit at sfmoma.org * > > > > *San Francisco Museum of Modern ArtEnjoy our spacious, art-filled > galleries. Tickets available at SFMOMA.org > * > > visit at SFMOMA.org > 151 Third Street | San Francisco, CA 94103 > > > This message, together with any and all attachments, is intended only for > the use of the recipient(s) named above. It may contain information that is > privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may > not review, copy or distribute this communication. If you have received > this communication in error, please notify the original sender by email and > delete the message, along with any attachments. > > *From:* ilsa > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:43 PM > *To:* visit at sfmoma.org > *Subject:* Clocks art show > > > > You don't often get email from ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com. Learn why this is > important > > Howdy I'm trying to find out the name of and maybe references to a movies > of clocks ticking away time and you could sit in a room and watch the > clocks for a certain amount of time and there was a long line of people who > wanted to get into the room and watch the clocks. > > > > How do I search for the name of the show who the artists were and what > year it was in San Francisco? > > > > Thank you for any help you can give me, with respect and gratitude, > > ilsa bartlett > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- #include -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 11:39:40 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 12:39:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations Message-ID: Fewer babies are being born around the world, and not only in the places you?d expect John Ibbitson Published October 17, 2024 Quotes: There has been a great deal of commentary on falling fertility rates in developed countries ? including Canada, which has seen its birth rate drop from 1.6 children per woman to 1.26 in less than a decade. But not enough attention is being paid to an even more dramatic phenomenon: the collapse, in just the past few years, of fertility rates in developing countries. Even those of us who have been predicting, in defiance of United Nations estimates, that the global population will peak mid-century and then begin to decline didn?t expect to see the numbers plunging like this. The accelerating collapse of birth rates in the developing world is nothing less than astonishing. ---------- We can debate the environmental benefits, economic costs and geopolitical implications of global population decline. But one thing is beyond debate: It?s coming at us faster than anybody thought. -------------------------------- Hmmm. Soon there will not be enough workers to tax to pay pensions. Those robots better get working soon! BillK From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 11:45:09 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 07:45:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] musk catches one, but of course he has hundreds of billions of dollars, so... sure, no problem In-Reply-To: <000f01db26a4$4218dfa0$c64a9ee0$@rainier66.com> References: <000f01db26a4$4218dfa0$c64a9ee0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 25, 2024, 2:09?AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Tim Walz (who is that?) > The Democratic nominee for Vice President. Not particularly demonstrated to be technically knowledgeable (though the recent spotlight on him hasn't really tested this), but he gets marketing and advertising in ways that the Republican nominee for Vice President demonstrably does not. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 11:57:01 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 06:57:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am familiar with the theory that in undeveloped countries, the more they get food-secure, the fewer babies they have. But what theory explains the countries like Canada? bill w On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 6:41?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Fewer babies are being born around the world, and not only in the > places you?d expect > John Ibbitson Published October 17, 2024 > > < > https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/opinion/article-fertility-rates-developing-countries-globally/ > > > Quotes: > There has been a great deal of commentary on falling fertility rates > in developed countries ? including Canada, which has seen its birth > rate drop from 1.6 children per woman to 1.26 in less than a decade. > > But not enough attention is being paid to an even more dramatic > phenomenon: the collapse, in just the past few years, of fertility > rates in developing countries. > > Even those of us who have been predicting, in defiance of United > Nations estimates, that the global population will peak mid-century > and then begin to decline didn?t expect to see the numbers plunging > like this. The accelerating collapse of birth rates in the developing > world is nothing less than astonishing. > ---------- > We can debate the environmental benefits, economic costs and > geopolitical implications of global population decline. But one thing > is beyond debate: It?s coming at us faster than anybody thought. > -------------------------------- > > Hmmm. Soon there will not be enough workers to tax to pay pensions. > Those robots better get working soon! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 12:08:21 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:08:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it perhaps the case that exploited laborers, seeing their kids no more able to provide than they are (and thus not seeing that kids are the traditional retirement plan any more) and/or being squeezed for short term (usually less than 5 years') gains, are less willing to take the traditional burden of raising children? If so, will the future belong to those nations that deploy in mass scale, pro-natalist policies and technologies, essentially treating child raising as one of those community expenses like firefighting and road maintenance? If so, would any large nation over the next 20 years see the development of human cloning and/or nannybot & teacherbot AIs - to help nudge to a future where the majority of children are primarily raised by (and in particular, at the expense of) the state rather than any one or two individuals - as a vital national interest? Is this a future that the reactionaries who presently dominate the US Republican party dread, knowing that however much they try to corrupt state sponsored education, the inevitable efficiencies will propel most students to see through their lies and refuse to go along with an unchanging reactionary (and possibly theocratic) government? On Fri, Oct 25, 2024, 7:41?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Fewer babies are being born around the world, and not only in the > places you?d expect > John Ibbitson Published October 17, 2024 > > < > https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/opinion/article-fertility-rates-developing-countries-globally/ > > > Quotes: > There has been a great deal of commentary on falling fertility rates > in developed countries ? including Canada, which has seen its birth > rate drop from 1.6 children per woman to 1.26 in less than a decade. > > But not enough attention is being paid to an even more dramatic > phenomenon: the collapse, in just the past few years, of fertility > rates in developing countries. > > Even those of us who have been predicting, in defiance of United > Nations estimates, that the global population will peak mid-century > and then begin to decline didn?t expect to see the numbers plunging > like this. The accelerating collapse of birth rates in the developing > world is nothing less than astonishing. > ---------- > We can debate the environmental benefits, economic costs and > geopolitical implications of global population decline. But one thing > is beyond debate: It?s coming at us faster than anybody thought. > -------------------------------- > > Hmmm. Soon there will not be enough workers to tax to pay pensions. > Those robots better get working soon! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 13:45:36 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:45:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2.5 children - in Canada's upper class. 1.5 children in the lower class another statistic - 1.25 children per couple Hard to reconcile these statistics, but in any case the upper classes are having children above replacement rate and the lower classes are far from it. Yes, bring on the AI robots. The overall intelligence should rise, eh? bill w On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 7:10?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is it perhaps the case that exploited laborers, seeing their kids no more > able to provide than they are (and thus not seeing that kids are the > traditional retirement plan any more) and/or being squeezed for short term > (usually less than 5 years') gains, are less willing to take the > traditional burden of raising children? > > If so, will the future belong to those nations that deploy in mass scale, > pro-natalist policies and technologies, essentially treating child raising > as one of those community expenses like firefighting and road maintenance? > > If so, would any large nation over the next 20 years see the development > of human cloning and/or nannybot & teacherbot AIs - to help nudge to a > future where the majority of children are primarily raised by (and in > particular, at the expense of) the state rather than any one or two > individuals - as a vital national interest? > > Is this a future that the reactionaries who presently dominate the US > Republican party dread, knowing that however much they try to corrupt state > sponsored education, the inevitable efficiencies will propel most students > to see through their lies and refuse to go along with an unchanging > reactionary (and possibly theocratic) government? > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2024, 7:41?AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Fewer babies are being born around the world, and not only in the >> places you?d expect >> John Ibbitson Published October 17, 2024 >> >> < >> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/opinion/article-fertility-rates-developing-countries-globally/ >> > >> Quotes: >> There has been a great deal of commentary on falling fertility rates >> in developed countries ? including Canada, which has seen its birth >> rate drop from 1.6 children per woman to 1.26 in less than a decade. >> >> But not enough attention is being paid to an even more dramatic >> phenomenon: the collapse, in just the past few years, of fertility >> rates in developing countries. >> >> Even those of us who have been predicting, in defiance of United >> Nations estimates, that the global population will peak mid-century >> and then begin to decline didn?t expect to see the numbers plunging >> like this. The accelerating collapse of birth rates in the developing >> world is nothing less than astonishing. >> ---------- >> We can debate the environmental benefits, economic costs and >> geopolitical implications of global population decline. But one thing >> is beyond debate: It?s coming at us faster than anybody thought. >> -------------------------------- >> >> Hmmm. Soon there will not be enough workers to tax to pay pensions. >> Those robots better get working soon! >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 14:15:52 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:15:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 at 14:48, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > 2.5 children - in Canada's upper class. 1.5 children in the lower class > another statistic - 1.25 children per couple > Hard to reconcile these statistics, but in any case the upper classes are having children above replacement rate and the lower classes are far from it. Yes, bring on the AI robots. The overall intelligence should rise, eh? bill w > _______________________________________________ Ir seems to me that at present there are two different pressures affecting the world population. As the article says, in the less-developed nations, where women get educated and have the rights to make their own decisions, they usually reduce the number of children that they have. For the developed nations, they have already gone through that phase and reduced their reproduction rate. But now they have been hit by inflation and large increases in the cost of living. They just can't afford to have children! Especially when there are many attractive alternatives to spend their heavily-taxed income on. BillK From efc at disroot.org Fri Oct 25 14:27:47 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 16:27:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 at 14:48, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> 2.5 children - in Canada's upper class. 1.5 children in the lower class >> another statistic - 1.25 children per couple >> Hard to reconcile these statistics, but in any case the upper classes >> are having children above replacement rate and the lower classes are >> far from it. Yes, bring on the AI robots. The overall intelligence >> should rise, eh? bill w >> _______________________________________________ > > > Ir seems to me that at present there are two different pressures > affecting the world population. > As the article says, in the less-developed nations, where women get > educated and have the rights to make their own decisions, they usually > reduce the number of children that they have. > For the developed nations, they have already gone through that phase > and reduced their reproduction rate. But now they have been hit by > inflation and large increases in the cost of living. They just can't > afford to have children! Especially when there are many attractive > alternatives to spend their heavily-taxed income on. Based on what I have seen related to this problem in sweden, and very subjectively thinking about acquaintances, old colleagues and others who have 0 or 1 child, the reasons are: * Falling biological fertility rates, general difficulty to actually have children. * Too expensive and too much sacrifice of lifestyle. They prefer traveling enjoying life, not having to care for a child with all that means in terms of punishing your career at work. * The wife forced one child into the world, with or without the will of the father, and after discovering the amount of screaming, sleepless nights etc. they both decided to never again go through that experience. I think, those are the most common reasons when thinking back to people I know with 0 or 1 child in a fairly rich country with social security and day care services funded by the government. I wonder if evolution, after a pause, will adjust for and naturally make sure that the ones who do survive have a stronger sense of caring and a need to procreate? Best regards, Daniel > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 14:51:20 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 10:51:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 10:29?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think, those are the most common reasons when thinking back to people > I know with 0 or 1 child in a fairly rich country with social security > and day care services funded by the government. > > I wonder if evolution, after a pause, will adjust for and naturally make > sure that the ones who do survive have a stronger sense of caring and a > need to procreate? > Any evolution that happens today - which would necessarily have to happen on a much faster timescale than traditional evolution - would have to take into account governments and technology. Which is why I inquired about possible increases in government-funded largely-artificial child raising. This does extend to artificial child making: not necessarily human cloning, but extending IVF and artificial wombs to the point that no human mother ever carries certain babies, possibly eventually a majority of babies in certain areas, whether or not the people who donated the sperm and egg are involved in raising the child after the artificial womb's direct involvement is complete. (There are of course sci-fi depictions of such societies. I was thinking about one such case in a certain popular media franchise when this thread came up.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 16:43:43 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 17:43:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 at 15:29, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > Based on what I have seen related to this problem in sweden, and very > subjectively thinking about acquaintances, old colleagues and others who > have 0 or 1 child, the reasons are: > > * Falling biological fertility rates, general difficulty to actually > have children. > > * Too expensive and too much sacrifice of lifestyle. They prefer > traveling enjoying life, not having to care for a child with all that > means in terms of punishing your career at work. > > * The wife forced one child into the world, with or without the will of > the father, and after discovering the amount of screaming, sleepless > nights etc. they both decided to never again go through that > experience. > > I think, those are the most common reasons when thinking back to people > I know with 0 or 1 child in a fairly rich country with social security > and day care services funded by the government. > > I wonder if evolution, after a pause, will adjust for and naturally make > sure that the ones who do survive have a stronger sense of caring and a > need to procreate? > > Best regards, > Daniel > _______________________________________________ As Adrian says, evolution is probably too slow to have a significant effect. While economies will have problems with not enough young workers to support an ageing population, there is also the problem that the military will not have enough younger people to fight extended land wars. The robots will have to fight our wars as well as run our factories. The aged humans will help to look after the few grandchildren around. BillK From efc at disroot.org Fri Oct 25 19:14:16 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 21:14:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6288efd2-5044-115d-3f7c-97aac85fc9c4@disroot.org> On Fri, 25 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 at 15:29, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> Based on what I have seen related to this problem in sweden, and very >> subjectively thinking about acquaintances, old colleagues and others who >> have 0 or 1 child, the reasons are: >> >> * Falling biological fertility rates, general difficulty to actually >> have children. >> >> * Too expensive and too much sacrifice of lifestyle. They prefer >> traveling enjoying life, not having to care for a child with all that >> means in terms of punishing your career at work. >> >> * The wife forced one child into the world, with or without the will of >> the father, and after discovering the amount of screaming, sleepless >> nights etc. they both decided to never again go through that >> experience. >> >> I think, those are the most common reasons when thinking back to people >> I know with 0 or 1 child in a fairly rich country with social security >> and day care services funded by the government. >> >> I wonder if evolution, after a pause, will adjust for and naturally make >> sure that the ones who do survive have a stronger sense of caring and a >> need to procreate? >> >> Best regards, >> Daniel >> _______________________________________________ > > > As Adrian says, evolution is probably too slow to have a significant effect. > While economies will have problems with not enough young workers to > support an ageing population, there is also the problem that the > military will not have enough younger people to fight extended land > wars. > The robots will have to fight our wars as well as run our factories. > The aged humans will help to look after the few grandchildren around. > On the other hand, perhaps culture will determine it? If you grow up in a family with parents who actually enjoy having children, perhaps you are more likely to want to have children yourself? As for lack of workers, and retirement pyramid schemes, this does not worry me at all. I am convinced that automation, robots, and a society where more people pay for their own needs will solve those problems. From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 21:04:35 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 16:04:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: <6288efd2-5044-115d-3f7c-97aac85fc9c4@disroot.org> References: <6288efd2-5044-115d-3f7c-97aac85fc9c4@disroot.org> Message-ID: If the fiction I read is any indication, growing up in a big family entails taking care of the children younger than you, and if you are the oldest it's worse. So they may hate kids. Or at least taking care of them. bill w On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 2:15?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, 25 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 at 15:29, efc--- via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> Based on what I have seen related to this problem in sweden, and very > >> subjectively thinking about acquaintances, old colleagues and others who > >> have 0 or 1 child, the reasons are: > >> > >> * Falling biological fertility rates, general difficulty to actually > >> have children. > >> > >> * Too expensive and too much sacrifice of lifestyle. They prefer > >> traveling enjoying life, not having to care for a child with all that > >> means in terms of punishing your career at work. > >> > >> * The wife forced one child into the world, with or without the will of > >> the father, and after discovering the amount of screaming, sleepless > >> nights etc. they both decided to never again go through that > >> experience. > >> > >> I think, those are the most common reasons when thinking back to people > >> I know with 0 or 1 child in a fairly rich country with social security > >> and day care services funded by the government. > >> > >> I wonder if evolution, after a pause, will adjust for and naturally make > >> sure that the ones who do survive have a stronger sense of caring and a > >> need to procreate? > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Daniel > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > As Adrian says, evolution is probably too slow to have a significant > effect. > > While economies will have problems with not enough young workers to > > support an ageing population, there is also the problem that the > > military will not have enough younger people to fight extended land > > wars. > > The robots will have to fight our wars as well as run our factories. > > The aged humans will help to look after the few grandchildren around. > > > > On the other hand, perhaps culture will determine it? If you grow up in a > family with parents who actually enjoy having children, perhaps you are > more likely to want to have children yourself? > > As for lack of workers, and retirement pyramid schemes, this does not > worry me at all. I am convinced that automation, robots, and a society > where more people pay for their own needs will solve those problems. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 06:41:48 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 00:41:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] In future, will everybody wear their own body cam? In-Reply-To: <5e85133c-4652-5188-73cc-e0d12506d6e1@disroot.org> References: <5e85133c-4652-5188-73cc-e0d12506d6e1@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 1:35?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So dear smartphone fans, what use would you have for 24x7 filming? > I don't trust my own autobiographical memory, so 24/7 filming would allow me to recall all the things I had told people I would do. It would help me to meet commitments better, and if an AI scanned the film, it could help me to recall such things. Same reason I recorded a bunch of my phone calls (until the app stopped working due to someone imposing policies I did not appreciate.) -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 06:45:41 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 00:45:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 5:57?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am familiar with the theory that in undeveloped countries, the more they > get food-secure, the fewer babies they have. > > But what theory explains the countries like Canada? bill w > > One thing that is contributing to global depopulation is the trend towards living in cities. In the country, additional kids are free labor to help around the farm. In the cities, extra kids mean extra expenses. If kids can't contribute, then why have kids goes this line of reasoning. The absolute worst country is South Korea. Their reproductive rate hovers right around 1.0 which is frighteningly low. -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 07:31:15 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 01:31:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: I recently saw a YouTube video (sorry, can't say which one I'm afraid, but it was an interview by Neil DeGrass Tyson and friends) that proposed that based upon some fuzzy unexplained data that musical ability might have preceded our ability to speak by a relatively large time. It was a very interesting proposition. So perhaps speech is a side effect of having musical ability... and not the other way around. -Kelly On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 1:17?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Music is a side effect of our ability to speak and the bilateral > symmetry of the brain. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area > wipes out musical ability. (This is in one of Oliver Sacks' books.) > > Keith > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 10:26:41 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 11:26:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2024 at 08:33, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > I recently saw a YouTube video (sorry, can't say which one I'm afraid, but it was an interview by Neil DeGrass Tyson and friends) that proposed that based upon some fuzzy unexplained data that musical ability might have preceded our ability to speak by a relatively large time. It was a very interesting proposition. So perhaps speech is a side effect of having musical ability... and not the other way around. > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ The relationship between music and language is still being argued. Darwin's theory suggesting that music predates language is the "musical protolanguage hypothesis." Another theory proposes that music and language co-evolved synergistically, influencing each other's development over time. This is known as the "musilanguage hypothesis". This article discusses the theories. Quote: However, it's essential to recognize that the question of whether music came before language or vice versa remains a topic of ongoing debate and speculation among scholars. The origins of music and language are likely intertwined, with both emerging gradually over millennia of human evolution in response to complex social, cognitive, and environmental pressures. --------------------- BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 10:29:00 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 06:29:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: It is said that music is a universal language. This would bolster that statement. On Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 3:32?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I recently saw a YouTube video (sorry, can't say which one I'm afraid, but > it was an interview by Neil DeGrass Tyson and friends) that proposed that > based upon some fuzzy unexplained data that musical ability might have > preceded our ability to speak by a relatively large time. It was a very > interesting proposition. So perhaps speech is a side effect of having > musical ability... and not the other way around. > > -Kelly > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 1:17?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Music is a side effect of our ability to speak and the bilateral >> symmetry of the brain. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area >> wipes out musical ability. (This is in one of Oliver Sacks' books.) >> >> Keith >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 14:03:07 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 09:03:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what's the use? In-Reply-To: References: <07b02b7b-a3ee-c39a-62bd-32f4d2e77adf@disroot.org> Message-ID: Perhaps a precursor to music was rhythm. Think of the use of drums sending messages a long way. And, at least to me, a good rhythm makes my feet start tapping, which leads to the invention of dance. While dancing one might vocalize one's enjoyment and that could lead to primitive musical notes. I wish I had studied the history of African music while I was a music major. bill w On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 5:30?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is said that music is a universal language. This would bolster that > statement. > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 3:32?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I recently saw a YouTube video (sorry, can't say which one I'm afraid, >> but it was an interview by Neil DeGrass Tyson and friends) that proposed >> that based upon some fuzzy unexplained data that musical ability might have >> preceded our ability to speak by a relatively large time. It was a very >> interesting proposition. So perhaps speech is a side effect of having >> musical ability... and not the other way around. >> >> -Kelly >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 1:17?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Music is a side effect of our ability to speak and the bilateral >>> symmetry of the brain. A stroke in the area opposite Broca's area >>> wipes out musical ability. (This is in one of Oliver Sacks' books.) >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 16:17:42 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 17:17:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Japanese professor created lifelike robot copy of himself Message-ID: Meet the ?father of humanoids,? the Japanese engineer who has created six robot versions of himself In 2006, Japanese engineer Hiroshi Ishiguro shocked the world by creating an android copy of himself called Geminoid HI-1. Nearly twenty years later, he has built six robot replicas of himself, with each version becoming more advanced. Wed, Oct 23 2024 Maria Gomez De Sicart Quote: ?The main feature of this version is it?s conversational. We have integrated it with a large language model, and then we have input ten of my books and almost all media interviews,? Ishiguro said in his interview with CNBC. ?Originally, I was using this robot for giving lectures when I was busy. But now, after the lectures, this Geminoid HI-6 can answer the questions given by an audience,? he added. ------------------- Includes 5-minute video. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 18:38:45 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 13:38:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1% - I'll bet that makes the people in charge of estimating pensions and such very nervous. Our kids have to support us in our old age. I wonder what in the U.S. would have happened if SS amassed large balances rather than just paying SS and Medicare out of current income - an actual fund, that is. bill w On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 1:47?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 5:57?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I am familiar with the theory that in undeveloped countries, the more >> they get food-secure, the fewer babies they have. >> >> But what theory explains the countries like Canada? bill w >> >> > One thing that is contributing to global depopulation is the trend towards > living in cities. In the country, additional kids are free labor to help > around the farm. In the cities, extra kids mean extra expenses. If kids > can't contribute, then why have kids goes this line of reasoning. > > The absolute worst country is South Korea. Their reproductive rate hovers > right around 1.0 which is frighteningly low. > > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 03:37:07 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 20:37:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star Message-ID: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/dozens-of-stars-show-signs-of-advanced-civilisations-scientists-say/vi-AA1sWgm5 Not much here, but it is the second time main stream media has mentioned Tabb's star Keith From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 13:16:03 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 13:16:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Humanoid Unitree G1 robot jumps 1.4 m from a standing start Message-ID: Unitree has taught its small humanoid robot G1 to jump. From a standing start, it reaches a distance that exceeds its height. Oct 22, 2024 By Oliver B?nte Quote: Unitree is currently preparing a version of the G1 adapted for mass production in order to mass-produce the humanoid robot. It is intended to be used for simple assembly work or in the household, as it cannot perform heavy work. The robot can only lift weights of up to 2 kg. -------------------- It is quite small - 4ft. 4in tall, but looks very human-like. Impressive 2 min. video includes their robot dog. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 00:14:58 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 00:14:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Storyville: Eternal You Message-ID: I've just watched on BBC TV the documentary "Eternal You" about creating digital copies of people that have died. The bereaved people seemed to find comfort in talking to the deceased. But the ethics of the companies creating these AI personas seem to be very dubious. Talking to the dead raises profound existential questions. These LLMs can be unpredicable in what they say in such a personal situation. It is a very moving and important review of AI developments. Short review and video clip here: In the UK, it is available to watch on the BBC iPlayer system and may be available in other countries. BillK