[ExI] A science-religious experience

[Jason Resch]

On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 4:04 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Feb 2025 at 08:54, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I read Asimov's "The Last Question" again today:
> >
> > https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html
> >
> > I keep forgetting the author, the title, most of the details but the arc
> of the story is always there with me. It shapes my perception of reality
> and the direction of my most long-term oriented actions, such as the
> maintenance of my cryonics contract or following news about the coming
> singularity. I have been re-reading it every ten years or so for the last
> 50 years and every time it is a science-religious experience for me, what I
> imagine deeply religious people feel when they commune with their gods. I
> get misty-eyed, elated, blissful...
> >
> > I am deeply non-religious. My mind must be the sharp blade that cleaves
> truth from chaos, not one that inscribes dreams of heaven and hell on the
> surface of reality. The easy path of faith is closed to me.They say that
> all people have a god-shaped hole in their minds. Mine is all filled with
> curiosity.
> >
> > I worship at the shrine of science. Our scripture is peer-reviewed and
> written anew every day in a hundred thousand journals. If I could sing I
> would sing canticles to St. Darwin and St. Hassabis. Our religion grows
> stronger all the time, as measured in bits of knowledge created and in ergs
> harvested in its service. It literally moves mountains and raises the
> chosen ones to visit heaven, temporarily for now but soon to settle there
> permanently.
> >
> > So chant with me, fellow worshippers:
> >
> > Science is faith-free                                     - because it
> is true.
> > Science gives us strength like no other        -because it is true.
> > Science gives us hope                                 - because it is
> true.
> >
> > And there will be light!
> >
> > Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
> > Schuyler Biotech PLLC
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> This article seems relevant.
> BillK
>
> Mini Philosophy — February 19, 2025  Jonny Thomson
> Why you must be logical and scientific to be a good person
> The more you know, the better you can act.
>
> <
> https://bigthink.com/mini-philosophy/why-you-must-be-logical-and-scientific-to-be-a-good-person/
> >
> Quote:
> Key Takeaways
> Being “scientistic” is different from being a scientist. A scientist
> is just someone who does science, but to behave scientistically is to
> believe that science is the only way of knowing or even living.
> Big Think spoke with philosopher and biologist Massimo Pigliucci about
> how scientism accurately describes the world but falls short as a
> complete guide for living — an area where ethics and philosophy are
> essential.
> We need ethical principles, logical reasoning, and scientific literacy
> to make sound moral decisions and lead a flourishing life.
>

Thanks for sharing that Bill. It was a good read.

I think truth seeking is in a sense the highest ideal since choosing the
correct course of action depends so highly on having a correct
understanding of reality and the consequences likely to follow from
selecting a particular course of action.

This requires more than simply scientific attitude, but a true and deep
philosophical understanding, an ability to sift over vast sets of other
possible actions that could be taken, and weighing their future outcomes.
An understanding of consciousness, joy, and suffering, a deep understanding
of physics, psychology, and economics. In short, it requires vast
computational resources.

An exponential increase in computing power provides only a linear increase
in future prediction, so even a superintelligence will be shortsighted as
far as predicting future consequences.

Then there is the "simming problem" -- if you are too accurate in your
simulation of observers and what they will experience, then you end up
invoking their conscious minds, and their pains and pleasures. There are
then moral consequences to your prediction efforts before you can even
decide an optimal course of action.

So then is it best to focus on heuristics, in focusing on improving the
here and now rather than making long term bets on unknowable futures?
Morality is perhaps the hardest of all subjects, yet it's also the most
important tongrt right.

Raymond Smullyan has some nice thoughts on this:


"I am Cosmic Process itself. I think the most accurate and fruitful
definition of me which man can frame—at least in his present state of
evolution—is that I am the very process of enlightenment. Those who wish to
think of the devil (although I wish they wouldn't!) might analogously
define him as the unfortunate length of time the process takes. In this
sense, the devil is necessary; the process simply does take an enormous
length of time, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. But, I
assure you, once the process is more correctly understood, the painful
length of time will no longer be regarded as an essential limitation or an
evil. It will be seen to be the very essence of the process itself. I know
this is not completely consoling to you who are now in the finite sea of
suffering, but the amazing thing is that once you grasp this fundamental
attitude, your very finite suffering will begin to diminish—ultimately to
the vanishing point."

Dennet and Hofstadter:

"Smullyan comes up with a wonderful definition of the Devil: the
unfortunate length of time it takes for sentient beings as a whole to come
to be enlightened. This idea of the necessary time it takes for a complex
state to come about has been explored mathematically in a provocative way
by Charles Bennett and Gregory Chaitin. They theorize that it may be
possible to prove, by arguments similar to those underlying Gédel’s
Incompleteness Theorem, that there is no shortcut to the development of
higher and higher intelligences (or, if you prefer, more and more
“‘enlightened”’ states); in short, that “the Devil’’ must get his due.""

https://archive.org/details/mindsifantasiesr0000hofs/page/334/mode/2up?q=Devil


Jason
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