From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul  1 09:30:49 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 10:30:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
Message-ID: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 at 21:20, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Now of course AI is going to be used for defense.  I will make the case, later today perhaps but more likely in the next few days, that we can imagine a case where AI will guide weapons to destroy other weapons.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


The Ukraine and Russian techies are developing drone warfare at a
fantastic pace.
Every enhancement becomes obsolete within three months.
They want drones to have the intelligence to select and destroy their
targets autonomously..
It won't take long for this to be achieved.

<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/25/ukraine-russia-autonomous-drones-ai>
Quotes:
Killing machines: how Russia and Ukraine?s race to perfect deadly
pilotless drones could harm us all.
Cheap, scaleable and highly autonomous, these weapons are developing
quickly ? and experts say they should prompt a global rethink about
security.
Daniel Boffey in Kyiv     Wed 25 Jun 2025

The targets are not merely tanks, planes, railway hubs and critical
infrastructure. The top priority is to kill people.

?There will be cheaper autonomous systems which can target infantry at
a smaller scale because this is a key target, because the doctrine of
war has changed, heavy equipment is used less and less,? Fedorov says.
---------------------

(And I guess that civilian forces and terrorists will also love these cheap
selective kill devices).
BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul  1 14:58:21 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 07:58:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here

On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 at 21:20, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>... Now of course AI is going to be used for defense.  I will make the case, later today perhaps but more likely in the next few days, that we can imagine a case where AI will guide weapons to destroy other weapons.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...The Ukraine and Russian techies are developing drone warfare at a fantastic pace.
Every enhancement becomes obsolete within three months.
They want drones to have the intelligence to select and destroy their targets autonomously..
It won't take long for this to be achieved.
...
---------------------

>...(And I guess that civilian forces and terrorists will also love these cheap selective kill devices).
BillK

_______________________________________________



That technology already exists BillK.  Flying robot competitions include such subcompetitions as identifying categories of people: injured hiker, escaped convict, nude sunbather, fitness runner.  The game is to drop a first aid kit and water to the injured hiker, identify the position and direction of the escaped convict, ignore the jogger, pixelate the image of the nude sunbather.  Fortunately, they didn't actually specify the requisite size of the pixels on that sunbather, so if our drone creates an image of such resolution that we can count her eyebrow hairs, that image is still made up of pixels, and therefore meets the strict definition of "pixelate" by my reasoning.

I can easily imagine drones being used as targeting vehicles, which identify and laser-paint the target, as missiles with end-game guidance come in seeking that specific frequency of the targeting laser.  Consequence: we may soon see or perhaps have already seen our last major outdoor political rally.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul  1 15:45:21 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:45:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 11:00?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I can easily imagine drones being used as targeting vehicles, which
> identify and laser-paint the target, as missiles with end-game guidance
> come in seeking that specific frequency of the targeting laser.
> Consequence: we may soon see or perhaps have already seen our last major
> outdoor political rally.
>

Let us imagine that this happens.  Some major - at least 1,000 people -
outdoor political rally happens.  Drone-launched munitions injure (at
minimum, possibly kill) a majority of the attendees.  The operators either
are government employees, or are not (being partisans, stooges, deniable
assets, or whatever) but are under the direction/control/enabling of
government employees (if nothing else: this is how they got the drones).
Despite this being a crowd, let us posit traditional kinetic weapons - at
most, fragmentation grenades - rather than gas clouds, sonic, or other riot
control measures, so as to demonstrate a clear intent to injure or kill
rather than merely deter.  (The demonstration, and its chilling effect on
further protests, may or may not be part of the purpose.)  The munitions
would likely be either artillery, or short range munitions that
functionally act like artillery.  (Guns can always be pointed up to act as
artillery.  Guided missiles in this quantity are expensive overkill - and
even mass murderers have finite budgets, especially government-funded ones.)

Local law enforcement would be all over this.  Politics aside, this is like
tossing raw meat to starving lions: investigation, arrest, and punishment
of those who would do this is clearly part of their purpose.  No federal
order to suspend investigation would have a chance of success, save maybe
for the FBI to assume jurisdiction - and if they try that only to clearly
drop the ball (due to ineptitude, slow walking, or merely not actually
conducting investigations and only being there to keep the local cops out),
the locals are going to do it anyway, jurisdiction be damned.  And if some
feds were responsible, they would be arrested and prosecuted under state
law, especially if there was a perception the feds would refuse to
prosecute.  Presidential pardons in this scenario would seem unlikely to
secure release of the perpetrators, and may backfire in other ways.

So, to get away with it, it would have to be done deniably, such that the
local police (ignoring any attempt to suppress them) would not be able to
prove who did it.  Given the assumption of a major political rally, this is
almost certainly happening in a large city - which means the local police
would be well-funded, with good access to and at least somewhat competent
training on technology.  The drones would have to be unregistered and
unlicensed.  Drones massing less than 250 grams don't have to register with
the FAA, so either make the targeting drones under that threshold or hope
that local airspace monitors don't flag larger drones not broadcasting ID.
Presumably the munition launchers would be ground-based; I don't know what
range mortars can get, and in an urban context, unblocked parabolic lines
of attack may be difficult unless they could launch from rooftops.  In any
case, they would either need to be able to escape detection quickly after
launch (launch would create enough noise and flash to risk the launch point
being immediately detected) or self-destruct so thoroughly that police
investigation of the remains could not trace back to their owners (which
seems unlikely, given the amount of resources that would be put into
investigation).  I am aware of means of doing this, but in practice,
implementations of that technology would be difficult - to understate
things - to acquire by the portion of the government that would execute
such a plan.  (There's a temptation to paint the government as one big
monolithic entity, such that anything that one department can get, is
automatically and instantly available to everyone in the government, and to
simply assert that this is an obvious fact.  In reality, that claim is
utterly false: the United States federal government is far from such unity.)

If it is credible enough that such an effort would be discovered, and that
the court of public opinion would tie responsibility back to the government
- almost certainly to the President - then that would likely be the best
deterrent to such a scenario actually happening.  (Unless someone were to
false-flag it, which seems unlikely given the organizations that would
false-flag it.)

Your thoughts?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul  1 16:02:19 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 09:02:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat

Cc: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here

 

On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 11:00?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

I can easily imagine drones being used as targeting vehicles, which identify and laser-paint the target, as missiles with end-game guidance come in seeking that specific frequency of the targeting laser.  Consequence: we may soon see or perhaps have already seen our last major outdoor political rally.

 

>?Let us imagine that this happens.  Some major - at least 1,000 people - outdoor political rally happens.  Drone-launched munitions injure (at minimum, possibly kill) a majority of the attendees?Your thoughts?

 

 

Adrian what I meant was a low-mass targeting drone of perhaps 10kg, which would have little or no radar signature, it would be hard to see, would make very little sound and would do nothing other than identify one particular person and paint him with a targeting laser from a distance of perhaps 1000 meters (some cameras are that good now), to guide incoming rocket propelled projectiles with end-game guidance aboard.  None of that requires huge amounts of funding or anything that couldn?t be smuggled into the country in a form unrecognizable as a weapon designed to take out one specific person.

 

I could see the students had created flying robots with sufficient on-board computing power to identify classes of people.  Some of these teams were very poorly funded, such as ours, where the pacifist students refuse any funding from military, government or any military contractor (which means pretty much every company interested in drones.)  They had a lot of engineering talent (I was very impressed with that) but operating on a starvation budget.

 

I hear Iran has issued a fatwa against that guy who is the current US president, I can?t think of his name at the moment, but he does outdoor rallies.  The Iranians have money and they have plenty of guys already in place.  Result: we may have already witnessed our last outdoor political rally.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul  1 16:22:10 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 09:22:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ten year ban on state ai regulations?
In-Reply-To: <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00c601dbeaa4$554cbc30$ffe63490$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I am reading about the senate struggling to pass a budget.  They included in there a ten year ban on state-level AI regulation.  What I don?t understand is how states proposed to regulate AI.  The former VP and US presidential  candidate, whose name I cannot recall at the moment, explained to us what is AI in the famous ?first of all, it?s two letters? speech.  We are told it is a kind of a fancy thing, and it is artificial intelligence.  It?s about machine learning.  The machine is taught.  The issue is what information is going into the machine (etc.)  Note that this was the US government?s person in charge of AI, who had not the foggiest clue what it is.

 

So now, there were state-level regulations on AI?  What would those be?  To have regulations on something, we would need to clearly understand what qualifies as AI, ja?  Now the federal government is proposing a ban on state-level regulations on AI.  But the fed does not have the authority to prevent a state from regulating something, unless there is a specific reserved power in the constitution allowing the federal government to do that.

 

So now we are back to states having the theoretical authority to regulate something that I can?t even imagine how it would define.

 

Ideas?

 

spike

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul  1 16:55:44 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 17:55:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi7q5ULvRF_JecOT0rCU9JEMVJerKEu7-=GLUXs+F1VmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 at 17:05, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Adrian what I meant was a low-mass targeting drone of perhaps 10kg, which would have little or no radar signature, it would be hard to see, would make very little sound and would do nothing other than identify one particular person and paint him with a targeting laser from a distance of perhaps 1000 meters (some cameras are that good now), to guide incoming rocket propelled projectiles with end-game guidance aboard.  None of that requires huge amounts of funding or anything that couldn?t be smuggled into the country in a form unrecognizable as a weapon designed to take out one specific person.
>
<snip>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think that in the very near future rocket projectiles will not be
required. A swarm of small drones with a specific objective could
either explode on impact or drop grenades. Any public appearances
would need to have a mobile drone defence system for company.
But a swarm of, say ten, small drones probably means that some
would still get through.
Such attacks could mean that public rallies would stop, as it would be
too dangerous for politicians to appear in public.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 12:32:33 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 08:32:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQG+BnnGbeK+g_k69qH0rCoeMjmBVNNhzEuOoHhwz-NTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 12:02?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Adrian what I meant was a low-mass targeting drone of perhaps 10kg, which
> would have little or no radar signature, it would be hard to see, would
> make very little sound
>

That's roughly what I was positing too, only I was going for lower mass
specifically so the drone would avoid raising official suspicion for being
undetectable because drones under 0.25 kg are officially allowed to not be
registered (so e.g. their not broadcasting ID would not be unusual).


> and would do nothing other than identify one particular person and paint
> him with a targeting laser from a distance of perhaps 1000 meters (some
> cameras are that good now), to guide incoming rocket propelled projectiles
> with end-game guidance aboard.
>

GPS guidance (calculated from cameras and the targeting drone's GPS) might
be that good too, and not require the give-away of targeting lasers.

Guided artillery (mortar-like) seems lower cost and more generally
available than rocket propelled projectiles.  Depending on the degree of
guidance and mobility of said projectiles (especially if artillery launch
is merely how they get close to the target), the projectiles themselves
might skirt the line of being called "drones", as in Bill's reply.


> None of that requires huge amounts of funding or anything that couldn?t be
> smuggled into the country in a form unrecognizable as a weapon designed to
> take out one specific person.
>

Instead of smuggling, build it in the country.  Most countries where there
would be public protests the government might want to suppress have enough
capacity for end-stage assembly, from commodity components that don't need
smuggling (if the components in turn aren't manufactured locally).


> I hear Iran has issued a fatwa against that guy who is the current US
> president, I can?t think of his name at the moment, but he does outdoor
> rallies.  The Iranians have money and they have plenty of guys already in
> place.  Result: we may have already witnessed our last outdoor political
> rally.
>

I'd be more worried about the followers of said current US president
implementing said measures against those who protest said current US
president.  That's what I originally thought you were worried about.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 13:12:33 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:12:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] ten year ban on state ai regulations?
In-Reply-To: <00c601dbeaa4$554cbc30$ffe63490$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRa9J70w6OGZsRbKKvGSo39QYufDgkdEXtUjMwWOs_2Lw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 12:22?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> So now, there were state-level regulations on AI?  What would those be?
> To have regulations on something, we would need to clearly understand what
> qualifies as AI, ja?  Now the federal government is proposing a ban on
> state-level regulations on AI.  But the fed does not have the authority to
> prevent a state from regulating something, unless there is a specific
> reserved power in the constitution allowing the federal government to do
> that.
>

That particular ban appears to be dead, in part because there were no
federal regulations waiting to replace the state ones.


> So now we are back to states having the theoretical authority to regulate
> something that I can?t even imagine how it would define.
>

This would have been the same issue with federal regulations.

Being unable to imagine it is not much of an issue in this case.  Simply
look up how the states are doing it - those states that have AI
regulations, anyway.  This sort of law is necessarily public information.
It's not that hard to google.  "California ai regulation" would be a good
place to start.  (I'd give a sample, but then you might confuse that sample
for the entirety of how all states are and could regulate AI.  I recommend
searching state by state for all 50 states, to get a comprehensive view of
the AI regs in each state - and to see how many states aren't regulating AI
at all, though a quick check suggests that at least half of them are making
some sort of effort, many with bills passed in the past year or two.)

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that all the state AI regulations
are good AI regulations.  The question is merely about what they are - as
in, what attempts are being made.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  2 16:08:20 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:08:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQG+BnnGbeK+g_k69qH0rCoeMjmBVNNhzEuOoHhwz-NTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00a801dbeb6b$87f797a0$97e6c6e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



 

>?I'd be more worried about the followers of said current US president implementing said measures against those who protest said current US president.  That's what I originally thought you were worried about?

 

 

 

Adrian, the reason I don?t worry about that one is the current POTUS is in his second term.  He has no more elections ahead of him.  Protests against that guy really don?t go anywhere or accomplish anything.

 

In those rallies, I seldom see JD Vance even mentioned.  

 

spike 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 16:14:44 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 12:14:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <00a801dbeb6b$87f797a0$97e6c6e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSDzrZMDASpgfwo3GMnb2+fKo4hmTyitV=Sc7e81w_XjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 12:08?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Adrian, the reason I don?t worry about that one is the current POTUS is in
> his second term.  He has no more elections ahead of him.  Protests against
> that guy really don?t go anywhere or accomplish anything.
>

They counter Congressional and other support for his actions during this
second term, and they weaken support for his proposals to serve a third
term in spite of the current Constitution, whether by amending it or simply
ignoring it (such as by declaring an emergency to indefinitely extend his
term regardless of what the Constitution says, and preventing any
federally-recognized election for US President until he declares the
emergency over).  These things that they accomplish are ends that quite a
few of his supporters do not want to be accomplished.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  2 16:20:43 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:20:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ten year ban on state ai regulations?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRa9J70w6OGZsRbKKvGSo39QYufDgkdEXtUjMwWOs_2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00c001dbeb6d$42dfd6d0$c89f8470$@rainier66.com>

 

Adrian wrote:

 

>?Being unable to imagine it is not much of an issue in this case.  Simply look up how the states are doing it - those states that have AI regulations, anyway?  Adrian 

 

 

*	Legal Definition of AI: The definition provided by California for AI is: "an engineered or machine-based system that varies in its level of autonomy and that can, for explicit or implicit objectives, infer from the input it receives how to generate outputs that can influence physical or virtual environments" (AB-2885 <https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240AB2885> ).

 

 

 

OK, so California now regulates nearly all software development, depending on how one defines the term ?regulates.?  It identifies AI without actually saying it is two letters, and a fancy thing.  OK then, that?s progress.  Or perhaps not, but in any case, there is one thing in there that makes a lotta sense: AB-2905 requires robocallers to disclose when they used deep-fake-created voices.  This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?  If so, my vision is complete: we can now have a robo-companion for the elderly, in which the patient can have discussions with a machine which uses the image and voice of a deceased companion.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 16:30:01 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 12:30:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] ten year ban on state ai regulations?
In-Reply-To: <00c001dbeb6d$42dfd6d0$c89f8470$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
 <00c601dbeaa4$554cbc30$ffe63490$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRgG+cwHD7LR3bm85N_bnkp8jjA4ePy1rbXneP7oFC5Qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 12:20?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> there is one thing in there that makes a lotta sense: AB-2905 requires robocallers to disclose when they used deep-fake-created voices.  This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?

In theory, yes.  In practice, this seems like it's an excuse to catch
(and levy additional fines or other penalties on) low-effort spammers,
whose systems might use such voices but are just as confined to
scripts (and thus, just as unable to have actual discussions) as
pre-AI robocallers.


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 18:35:10 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 19:35:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
Message-ID: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 at 17:23, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can
have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?  If
so, my vision is complete: we can now have a robo-companion for the
elderly, in which the patient can have discussions with a machine which
uses the image and voice of a deceased companion.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


This has been available since at least last year.
Only a short voice recording is required to enable any voice to be
replicated.
Building an avatar companion is more complicated. You need to input a lot
of their emails, chats, videos, discussions, papers, etc. to build a
lifelike history of their personality.
Some people have done this already. A search will find many examples.
(Of course, this can also be used to deep-fake living people as well).

I asked Perplexity for a report.
I have included the references, so you can read more.
BillK

Perplexity -

Yes, people can now chat with digital representations of deceased friends
or relatives that speak in their own voice, thanks to advances in AI
technology such as voice cloning, natural language processing, and image
synthesis. Several AI-powered services and apps have emerged that create
interactive virtual avatars or chatbots of deceased individuals based on
recordings, videos, text messages, and other personal data.

Key points about this technology:

Voice Cloning and Digital Avatars: Companies like DEEPBRAIN AI use photos,
videos, and audio clips to replicate the faces, voices, and facial
expressions of people who have passed away, enabling virtual meetings where
loved ones can have conversations with these AI-generated personas.

HereAfter AI: This app creates "Life Story Avatars" that speak in the
recorded voice of the deceased, sharing stories, advice, and memories.
Users interact with these avatars via smart speakers or apps, and the AI
responds with prerecorded or AI-generated content based on the deceased's
life.

Chatbots for Grief Support: Some chatbots, like the one created by Eugenia
Kuyda for her deceased friend, use text message histories to simulate
conversations, helping users process grief by interacting with a digital
version of their loved one.

Limitations and Ethical Considerations: Experts caution that these digital
clones do not truly recreate the person but serve as digital monuments to
memories. There are concerns about psychological impacts, the dignity of
the deceased, and commercial exploitation. Researchers recommend safeguards
such as transparency that users are interacting with AI and ethical design
processes.

Current Use Cases: People report finding comfort and closure by "talking"
to these AI versions, hearing familiar voices, and learning stories they
might not have known. However, the technology is still evolving and can
sometimes produce responses that feel unnatural or confusing.

In summary, AI technology today enables people to have conversations with
digital versions of deceased loved ones that speak in their own voice,
providing a new form of connection and remembrance, though it remains a
simulation rather than true resurrection.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/10/18/1061320/digital-clones-of-dead-people/
https://designtaxi.com/news/421682/AI-Generator-Brings-Deceased-Loved-Ones-Back-For-One-Last-Conversation/
https://www.service95.com/ai-grief-chatbot
https://www.tbsnews.net/tech/hereafter-ai-powered-app-lets-people-speak-their-dead-relatives-518438
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/call-for-safeguards-to-prevent-unwanted-hauntings-by-ai-chatbots-of-dead-loved-ones
https://www.cnet.com/culture/hereafter-ai-lets-you-talk-with-your-dead-loved-ones-through-a-chatbot/
https://med.umn.edu/news/top-story-new-medium-communicating-dead-ai-and-chatbots
https://futureparty.com/ai-chatbots-storyfile-talk-dead-relatives/
------------------------------
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  2 20:00:49 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 13:00:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions

 

On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 at 17:23, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:
>>? This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?  If so, my vision is complete: we can now have a robo-companion for the elderly, in which the patient can have discussions with a machine which uses the image and voice of a deceased companion.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>?This has been available since at least last year.
Only a short voice recording is required to enable any voice to be replicated.
Building an avatar companion is more complicated. You need to input a lot of their emails, chats, videos, discussions, papers, etc. to build a lifelike history of their personality.
Some people have done this already. ?  BillK

 

 

 

Hey cool!  I already have a huge body of text, nearly thirty years of posting to Extr?  op?

 

Oh dear, I have problem on my hands, a big problem BillK.  

 

Fortunately it comes with a solution: I must outlive my bride.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 14:23:45 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 15:23:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 at 21:01, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Hey cool!  I already have a huge body of text, nearly thirty years of
posting to Extr?  op?
>
> Oh dear, I have problem on my hands, a big problem BillK.
> Fortunately it comes with a solution: I must outlive my bride.
>
> spike
> ----------------------------------------

Problem?  Just keep it under lock and key and show it only to heavily
disguised persons in the privacy of your secret underground bunker. ;)
BillK

I asked Claude Sonnet 4 for a second, more thorough, opinion --

Yes, people can now chat with visual avatars of deceased friends or
relatives that speak in their own voice. This technology has evolved
significantly and is becoming increasingly sophisticated and accessible.

## Technical Capabilities

**Voice Cloning Technology**
Modern AI can recreate remarkably realistic voices using relatively small
amounts of audio data. Voice cloning with services like Speechify can work
with just 30 seconds of recording, while more advanced systems can produce
highly convincing results with several minutes of source audio. The
technology uses deep learning models to analyze vocal patterns, pitch,
tone, and speech characteristics to generate new speech that sounds
authentic.

**Visual Avatar Creation**
AI can analyze and create a 3D avatar from the deceased person's face,
reconstructing detailed facial features, and if no video exists, you can
simply upload a photo of the deceased and get ready to make it into a
Talking Photo. These avatars can lip-sync to the generated speech, creating
the illusion of natural conversation.

**Conversational AI Integration**
The avatars are powered by large language models that can engage in
meaningful dialogue. Some systems are trained on the person's writing,
social media posts, text messages, or recorded interviews to approximate
their communication style, personality, and knowledge base.

## Major Players and Services

**Established Companies**
HereAfter AI, founded in 2019, allows users to create avatars of deceased
loved ones. The AI-powered app generates responses and answers to questions
based on interviews conducted while the subject was alive. HereAfter.AI
differentiates itself in the expanding deathbot genre by providing life
story recordings and plans to be around for a long time, with provisions to
let customers download their recordings if the company shuts down.

**Chinese Market Leadership**
China has become a significant hub for this technology. Silicon
Intelligence is part of a number of startups that created AI chatbots using
someone's voice and likeness, made possible by the rise of increasingly
powerful chatbots and investments in computing power that allow companies
to offer affordable digital "clones". Undertakers and tech-savvy people in
China have already started using AI tools to create realistic avatars of
people who have passed away, using a blend of tools such as the ChatGPT
chatbot and the image generator Midjourney.

**Consumer Applications**
People like Robert Scott, who lives in Raleigh, North Carolina, uses AI
companion apps Paradot and Chai AI to simulate conversations with
characters he created to imitate three of his daughters. Ana Schultz, a
25-year-old from Rock Falls, Illinois, asks her deceased husband Kyle for
cooking advice through AI conversations.

## Real-World Applications

**Grief Support**
AI-generated avatars that look and sound like deceased relatives are
increasingly popular to console those in mourning, or to hide the deaths of
loved ones from the elderly and young children. Many users report finding
comfort in being able to continue conversations with lost loved ones.

**Memorial Services**
Some funeral homes and memorial services now offer digital resurrection as
part of their packages, allowing families to create lasting interactive
memorials.

**Cultural Preservation**
The technology is being used to preserve family histories and cultural
knowledge by creating interactive archives of elders and community leaders.

## Ethical Considerations and Safeguards

**Consent and Authorization**
Due to the rise in AI-powered scams using deepfakes of a person's voice or
likeness, both Super Brain and Silicon Intelligence require authorization
from the person being digitally cloned, or authorization from family and
proof of kin if the person is deceased. Chinese AI firms only allow people
to digitally clone themselves or for family members to clone the deceased.

**Psychological Concerns**
Artificial intelligence that allows users to hold text and voice
conversations with lost loved ones runs the risk of causing psychological
harm, according to researchers at Cambridge University. Ethicists are
already warning about the unforeseen emotional impacts this could have.

**Commercial Exploitation**
There are genuine ethical concerns about conversing with an AI replica of a
deceased loved one. Many death tech startups are commercially driven and
feed off your grief. Researchers wonder what it means when mourning is
'fully integrated into the capitalist market'.

## Current Limitations and Considerations

**Technical Constraints**
- Quality depends heavily on available source material (photos, videos,
audio recordings)
- The technology requires significant computational resources for the most
realistic results
- Real-time interaction may have latency issues depending on processing
requirements

**Emotional Authenticity**
The essence of a person is more than just the sound of their voice; it's
the context, the emotions, the shared experiences. While the technology can
mimic speech patterns and conversational style, it cannot truly replicate
the complex emotional intelligence and lived experiences of the deceased
person.

**Regulatory Landscape**
The technology exists in a largely unregulated space, with different
countries taking varying approaches to oversight and ethical guidelines.

## Future Developments

The technology continues to advance rapidly, with improvements in:
- Reduced data requirements for voice cloning
- More sophisticated personality modeling
- Better integration with virtual and augmented reality
- Enhanced emotional intelligence in responses

The market is expected to evolve with new concepts that differentiate
services in an increasingly saturated market, though questions remain about
the long-term psychological and social implications of widespread adoption.

This technology represents a significant shift in how we process grief and
remember loved ones, offering both unprecedented opportunities for
connection and concerning questions about the nature of death, memory, and
human relationships in the digital age.
---------------------------
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul  3 21:12:19 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 14:12:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c701dbec5f$2a060f10$7e122d30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 3 July, 2025 7:24 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions

 

On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 at 21:01, <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:
>
> Hey cool!  I already have a huge body of text, nearly thirty years of posting to Extr?  op?
>
> Oh dear, I have problem on my hands, a big problem BillK. 
> Fortunately it comes with a solution: I must outlive my bride.
>
> spike

> ---------------------------------------- 

 

>?Problem?  Just keep it under lock and key and show it only to heavily disguised persons in the privacy of your secret underground bunker. ;)

BillK

 

 

BillK, that isn?t what is worrying me.  If I use my ExI posts to train my avatar, it is using material that I may have written some time ago, when I was a silly young bahstid.  I may not believe in those views anymore, or hold those opinions, now that time has passed, and I am a silly old bahstid.  Some of the material used to train my avatar might be things I wrote two, three or even four weeks ago.  I am just not that way anymore.

 

I have an idea however.  If I can have a discussion with an avatar trained on my old posts, then I have it record the clever replies and refutations I offer back, now that I am old and several percent less ignorant.  Then I create a new avatar trained on all the new stuff.  It becomes more like the REAL me.  For a few weeks anyway.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 22:04:57 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 23:04:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <00c701dbec5f$2a060f10$7e122d30$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c701dbec5f$2a060f10$7e122d30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhazLtXck7GSnSHMuvX=e+5OwnF381CTHLYQE0y--LGvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 at 22:12, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> BillK, that isn?t what is worrying me.  If I use my ExI posts to train my avatar, it is using material that I may have written some time ago, when I was a silly young bahstid.  I may not believe in those views anymore, or hold those opinions, now that time has passed, and I am a silly old bahstid.  Some of the material used to train my avatar might be things I wrote two, three or even four weeks ago.  I am just not that way anymore.
>
> I have an idea however.  If I can have a discussion with an avatar trained on my old posts, then I have it record the clever replies and refutations I offer back, now that I am old and several percent less ignorant.  Then I create a new avatar trained on all the new stuff.  It becomes more like the REAL me.  For a few weeks anyway.
>
> spike
> -----------------------------------


Yes, that's one of the worries with these memorial avatars.
The avatar could be trained on any data available, from any person and
any source. It would have the likeness and voice style of the original
individual, but it could be trained to say absolutely anything.
Deepfakes on steroids!
That's why the AI reports are worried about the lack of regulations
and ethical problems.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul  4 02:40:18 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 19:40:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robo-soccer
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhazLtXck7GSnSHMuvX=e+5OwnF381CTHLYQE0y--LGvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c701dbec5f$2a060f10$7e122d30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhazLtXck7GSnSHMuvX=e+5OwnF381CTHLYQE0y--LGvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301dbec8c$fb8b2b60$f2a18220$@rainier66.com>


This looks like one hell of a lotta fun:

https://youtu.be/TSfbih_kfp8

I predict it will show up here soon, and make the sport popular.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul  4 02:45:38 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 19:45:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robo-soccer
In-Reply-To: <003301dbec8c$fb8b2b60$f2a18220$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c701dbec5f$2a060f10$7e122d30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhazLtXck7GSnSHMuvX=e+5OwnF381CTHLYQE0y--LGvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003301dbec8c$fb8b2b60$f2a18220$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <003801dbec8d$b9cc4f00$2d64ed00$@rainier66.com>



Clarification: they have soccer matches at nearby Levi Stadium.  I wouldn't go to one if someone gave me tickets.  But I would cheerfully hand over 50 clams to see a robo-soccer match.  My spidey-sense it tingling: there is money to be made.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Thursday, 3 July, 2025 7:40 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: robo-soccer


This looks like one hell of a lotta fun:

https://youtu.be/TSfbih_kfp8

I predict it will show up here soon, and make the sport popular.

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul  4 03:03:18 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 20:03:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robo-soccer
In-Reply-To: <003801dbec8d$b9cc4f00$2d64ed00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiRZ9xBP970zK2zw5+eNAY8ndca+w06DTjga_qeCUSW7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c701dbec5f$2a060f10$7e122d30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhazLtXck7GSnSHMuvX=e+5OwnF381CTHLYQE0y--LGvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003301dbec8c$fb8b2b60$f2a18220$@rainier66.com>
 <003801dbec8d$b9cc4f00$2d64ed00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <003901dbec90$321dc860$96595920$@rainier66.com>

Levi Stadium in Santa Clara CA is close enough I can hear the crowd noise from my back yard when the wind is right.  Santa Clara is Geek City in Nerdvana County USA.  I can easily imagine the first robo-soccer match selling the place out at 50 a seat.  Then eventually we will get robo-baseball and robo-football (the kind where the ball has pointy-ends, BillK.)  Those will take longer, but in every case, sold-out stadium, cubic buttloads of money for whoever can get there first.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Thursday, 3 July, 2025 7:46 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robo-soccer



Clarification: they have soccer matches at nearby Levi Stadium.  I wouldn't go to one if someone gave me tickets.  But I would cheerfully hand over 50 clams to see a robo-soccer match.  My spidey-sense it tingling: there is money to be made.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Thursday, 3 July, 2025 7:40 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: robo-soccer


This looks like one hell of a lotta fun:

https://youtu.be/TSfbih_kfp8

I predict it will show up here soon, and make the sport popular.

spike





From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 04:42:39 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 22:42:39 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnABarBx=K8YDTuWL+L0hTT7-R4z+aAz32hsdAC5SxKRtQ@mail.gmail.com>

The biggest problem I can see is that I speak differently to my spouse
than to anyone else. If it used my emails to you folks, it would go
right over her head. And that's not something I would ever tell her,
of course. It's not that I lie to her, or anything like that, it's
that I just talk DIFFERENTLY to her.

Do you think AI could really parse that apart at this point? I mean I
rarely email her, so how could it?

-Kelly

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 12:36?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 at 17:23, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?  If so, my vision is complete: we can now have a robo-companion for the elderly, in which the patient can have discussions with a machine which uses the image and voice of a deceased companion.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> This has been available since at least last year.
> Only a short voice recording is required to enable any voice to be replicated.
> Building an avatar companion is more complicated. You need to input a lot of their emails, chats, videos, discussions, papers, etc. to build a lifelike history of their personality.
> Some people have done this already. A search will find many examples.
> (Of course, this can also be used to deep-fake living people as well).
>
> I asked Perplexity for a report.
> I have included the references, so you can read more.
> BillK
>
> Perplexity -
>
> Yes, people can now chat with digital representations of deceased friends or relatives that speak in their own voice, thanks to advances in AI technology such as voice cloning, natural language processing, and image synthesis. Several AI-powered services and apps have emerged that create interactive virtual avatars or chatbots of deceased individuals based on recordings, videos, text messages, and other personal data.
>
> Key points about this technology:
>
> Voice Cloning and Digital Avatars: Companies like DEEPBRAIN AI use photos, videos, and audio clips to replicate the faces, voices, and facial expressions of people who have passed away, enabling virtual meetings where loved ones can have conversations with these AI-generated personas.
>
> HereAfter AI: This app creates "Life Story Avatars" that speak in the recorded voice of the deceased, sharing stories, advice, and memories. Users interact with these avatars via smart speakers or apps, and the AI responds with prerecorded or AI-generated content based on the deceased's life.
>
> Chatbots for Grief Support: Some chatbots, like the one created by Eugenia Kuyda for her deceased friend, use text message histories to simulate conversations, helping users process grief by interacting with a digital version of their loved one.
>
> Limitations and Ethical Considerations: Experts caution that these digital clones do not truly recreate the person but serve as digital monuments to memories. There are concerns about psychological impacts, the dignity of the deceased, and commercial exploitation. Researchers recommend safeguards such as transparency that users are interacting with AI and ethical design processes.
>
> Current Use Cases: People report finding comfort and closure by "talking" to these AI versions, hearing familiar voices, and learning stories they might not have known. However, the technology is still evolving and can sometimes produce responses that feel unnatural or confusing.
>
> In summary, AI technology today enables people to have conversations with digital versions of deceased loved ones that speak in their own voice, providing a new form of connection and remembrance, though it remains a simulation rather than true resurrection.
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/10/18/1061320/digital-clones-of-dead-people/
> https://designtaxi.com/news/421682/AI-Generator-Brings-Deceased-Loved-Ones-Back-For-One-Last-Conversation/
> https://www.service95.com/ai-grief-chatbot
> https://www.tbsnews.net/tech/hereafter-ai-powered-app-lets-people-speak-their-dead-relatives-518438
> https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/call-for-safeguards-to-prevent-unwanted-hauntings-by-ai-chatbots-of-dead-loved-ones
> https://www.cnet.com/culture/hereafter-ai-lets-you-talk-with-your-dead-loved-ones-through-a-chatbot/
> https://med.umn.edu/news/top-story-new-medium-communicating-dead-ai-and-chatbots
> https://futureparty.com/ai-chatbots-storyfile-talk-dead-relatives/
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 11:22:31 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2025 12:22:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnABarBx=K8YDTuWL+L0hTT7-R4z+aAz32hsdAC5SxKRtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnABarBx=K8YDTuWL+L0hTT7-R4z+aAz32hsdAC5SxKRtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjBOSBUa-bz2x=fMsONGycu7Dph+XOkCzGz3+qu=WWxAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 4 Jul 2025 at 05:45, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The biggest problem I can see is that I speak differently to my spouse
> than to anyone else. If it used my emails to you folks, it would go
> right over her head. And that's not something I would ever tell her,
> of course. It's not that I lie to her, or anything like that, it's
> that I just talk DIFFERENTLY to her.
>
> Do you think AI could really parse that apart at this point? I mean I
> rarely email her, so how could it?
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________


This is a problem for the current state of memorial avatars.
Without total mind uploading, (probably not possible after death), an
avatar will have to get complicated to allow for all aspects of a
personality. Different people will have different memories of a
person. Work colleagues, family members, golf club contacts, social
club contacts, etc. will all have experience with different aspects of
that personality.
If the avatar is intended to be used by just one person, then that
simplifies the construction. Only the knowledge common to both people
needs to be used for training the avatar.
Plus, of course, the general LLM training to enable conversation.

If more people will be chatting with the avatar, then more training
data, appropriate for each person, will be needed. Some method of
creating several sub-avatars and identifying which to use for each
conversation will be required. Confidentiality becomes important, as
some data known by one person might upset another person if divulged
during the conversation.

It gets complicated! The best solution is probably to just have
single-user avatars, trained on data available to that user.

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul  4 13:12:32 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2025 06:12:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnABarBx=K8YDTuWL+L0hTT7-R4z+aAz32hsdAC5SxKRtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnABarBx=K8YDTuWL+L0hTT7-R4z+aAz32hsdAC5SxKRtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006301dbece5$4dc4ca50$e94e5ef0$@rainier66.com>

Kelly I am in the same situation.  My bride would understand my posts here, she just wouldn't like them.  She might divorce my ExIbot.  Or perhaps just still miss the other me.

I have an idea.  I take her email, create a bridebot with that, interact with that now, create a new spikebot trained on what I tell it now.

Oh this is exciting stuff, me lad.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 3 July, 2025 9:43 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Kelly Anderson <postmowoods at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions

The biggest problem I can see is that I speak differently to my spouse than to anyone else. If it used my emails to you folks, it would go right over her head. And that's not something I would ever tell her, of course. It's not that I lie to her, or anything like that, it's that I just talk DIFFERENTLY to her.

Do you think AI could really parse that apart at this point? I mean I rarely email her, so how could it?

-Kelly

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 12:36?PM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 at 17:23, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?  If so, my vision is complete: we can now have a robo-companion for the elderly, in which the patient can have discussions with a machine which uses the image and voice of a deceased companion.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> This has been available since at least last year.
> Only a short voice recording is required to enable any voice to be replicated.
> Building an avatar companion is more complicated. You need to input a lot of their emails, chats, videos, discussions, papers, etc. to build a lifelike history of their personality.
> Some people have done this already. A search will find many examples.
> (Of course, this can also be used to deep-fake living people as well).
>
> I asked Perplexity for a report.
> I have included the references, so you can read more.
> BillK
>
> Perplexity -
>
> Yes, people can now chat with digital representations of deceased friends or relatives that speak in their own voice, thanks to advances in AI technology such as voice cloning, natural language processing, and image synthesis. Several AI-powered services and apps have emerged that create interactive virtual avatars or chatbots of deceased individuals based on recordings, videos, text messages, and other personal data.
>
> Key points about this technology:
>
> Voice Cloning and Digital Avatars: Companies like DEEPBRAIN AI use photos, videos, and audio clips to replicate the faces, voices, and facial expressions of people who have passed away, enabling virtual meetings where loved ones can have conversations with these AI-generated personas.
>
> HereAfter AI: This app creates "Life Story Avatars" that speak in the recorded voice of the deceased, sharing stories, advice, and memories. Users interact with these avatars via smart speakers or apps, and the AI responds with prerecorded or AI-generated content based on the deceased's life.
>
> Chatbots for Grief Support: Some chatbots, like the one created by Eugenia Kuyda for her deceased friend, use text message histories to simulate conversations, helping users process grief by interacting with a digital version of their loved one.
>
> Limitations and Ethical Considerations: Experts caution that these digital clones do not truly recreate the person but serve as digital monuments to memories. There are concerns about psychological impacts, the dignity of the deceased, and commercial exploitation. Researchers recommend safeguards such as transparency that users are interacting with AI and ethical design processes.
>
> Current Use Cases: People report finding comfort and closure by "talking" to these AI versions, hearing familiar voices, and learning stories they might not have known. However, the technology is still evolving and can sometimes produce responses that feel unnatural or confusing.
>
> In summary, AI technology today enables people to have conversations with digital versions of deceased loved ones that speak in their own voice, providing a new form of connection and remembrance, though it remains a simulation rather than true resurrection.
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/10/18/1061320/digital-clones-of-
> dead-people/ 
> https://designtaxi.com/news/421682/AI-Generator-Brings-Deceased-Loved-
> Ones-Back-For-One-Last-Conversation/
> https://www.service95.com/ai-grief-chatbot
> https://www.tbsnews.net/tech/hereafter-ai-powered-app-lets-people-spea
> k-their-dead-relatives-518438 
> https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/call-for-safeguards-to-prevent-unw
> anted-hauntings-by-ai-chatbots-of-dead-loved-ones
> https://www.cnet.com/culture/hereafter-ai-lets-you-talk-with-your-dead
> -loved-ones-through-a-chatbot/ 
> https://med.umn.edu/news/top-story-new-medium-communicating-dead-ai-an
> d-chatbots 
> https://futureparty.com/ai-chatbots-storyfile-talk-dead-relatives/
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  6 20:14:42 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 21:14:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
Message-ID: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>

How To Use Fusion To Get To Proxima Centauri's Potentially Habitable Exoplanet
By Andy Tomaswick - July 6, 2025

<https://www.universetoday.com/articles/how-to-use-fusion-to-get-to-proxima-centauris-potentially-habitable-exoplanet>
Quote:
That was the thought behind the Master?s Thesis of Amelie Lutz at
Virginia Tech - she looked at the possibility of using fusion
propulsion systems to send a few hundred kilogram probe to the system,
and potentially even orbit it.
The winning solution, according to her thesis, is a fusion driven
rocket (FDR) configuration using D-He3 as a fuel source. By her
calculations, such a system could arrive in the Proxima Centauri
system and begin orbiting its target planet in around 57 years.
------------------

This is all speculation, of course, as a fusion drive hasn't been invented yet.
But it could happen in a possible future.
BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul  6 20:32:32 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 13:32:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001dbeeb5$1a8b2720$4fa17560$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, 6 July, 2025 1:15 PM

Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri

How To Use Fusion To Get To Proxima Centauri's Potentially Habitable Exoplanet By Andy Tomaswick - July 6, 2025

<https://www.universetoday.com/articles/how-to-use-fusion-to-get-to-proxima-centauris-potentially-habitable-exoplanet>
Quote:
That was the thought behind the Master?s Thesis of Amelie Lutz at Virginia Tech - she looked at the possibility of using fusion propulsion systems to send a few hundred kilogram probe to the system, and potentially even orbit it.
The winning solution, according to her thesis, is a fusion driven rocket (FDR) configuration using D-He3 as a fuel source. By her calculations, such a system could arrive in the Proxima Centauri system and begin orbiting its target planet in around 57 years.
------------------

>...This is all speculation, of course, as a fusion drive hasn't been invented yet.
But it could happen in a possible future.
BillK

_______________________________________________



Thanks BillK!

A system like this is plausible, but getting there in 57 years strains my imagination.  I will look over the thesis, see if I see anything obvious.  Dropping into Prox' orbit after a few hundred years is more believable than getting into orbit of one of its planets.

spike



From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 08:58:07 2025
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 10:58:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Should we want to leave space expansion to AI?
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydn2KGktV6BRN3yth=q_ZmFxN-HW0U8gqReD6wOSZA6Sw@mail.gmail.com>

You are invited to the Terasem Colloquium on July 20. Should we still
want to send human astronauts to colonize space? Or should we want to
leave space expansion to AI?
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/you-are-invited-to-the-terasem-colloquium

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 11:01:43 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 12:01:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <003001dbeeb5$1a8b2720$4fa17560$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001dbeeb5$1a8b2720$4fa17560$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhaE-HNaM0gz9qEMgboWgpCGSuqrU8BWyrbpKZ+hgLGSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 6 Jul 2025 at 21:32, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> A system like this is plausible, but getting there in 57 years strains my imagination.  I will look over the thesis, see if I see anything obvious.  Dropping into Prox' orbit after a few hundred years is more believable than getting into orbit of one of its planets.
>
> spike
> -------------------------------------

I asked Perplexity to review the thesis.
Perplexity pointed out the speculative nature of the thesis.
i.e. Fusion Drive has not been invented yet, D-He3 fuel is rare on Earth
and the problems of long-duration missions.
However, the conclusion was that the thesis demonstrates that, with
optimistic but not implausible advances in fusion technology, a
large-scale interstellar mission to Proxima b could be feasible within
a human lifetime.
-------------------

So, "speculative but not implausible" - Sounds good to me!

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  7 14:18:41 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 07:18:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhaE-HNaM0gz9qEMgboWgpCGSuqrU8BWyrbpKZ+hgLGSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001dbeeb5$1a8b2720$4fa17560$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhaE-HNaM0gz9qEMgboWgpCGSuqrU8BWyrbpKZ+hgLGSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003b01dbef4a$0ab983b0$202c8b10$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 7 July, 2025 4:02 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri

On Sun, 6 Jul 2025 at 21:32, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> A system like this is plausible, but getting there in 57 years strains my
imagination.  I will look over the thesis, see if I see anything obvious.
Dropping into Prox' orbit after a few hundred years is more believable than
getting into orbit of one of its planets.
>
> spike
> -------------------------------------

>...I asked Perplexity to review the thesis.
Perplexity pointed out the speculative nature of the thesis.
i.e. Fusion Drive has not been invented yet, D-He3 fuel is rare on Earth and
the problems of long-duration missions.
However, the conclusion was that the thesis demonstrates that, with
optimistic but not implausible advances in fusion technology, a large-scale
interstellar mission to Proxima b could be feasible within a human lifetime.
-------------------

>...So, "speculative but not implausible" - Sounds good to me!

BillK

_______________________________________________



Ja.  Deuterium isn't rare, and the He3 is generated in route with the
breakdown of tritium.  The big problem is storing enough tritium, because it
has a half-life of about 12.5 yrs.  This would make it only useful for the
acceleration phase.  The more I have thought about that problem, the more I
think this will be a few thousand year mission, with lower top speed, but
with a more plausible scheme to slow down on the other end.  This influenced
my comment that I can see getting into Prox orbit a lot easier than I can
see a particular planet there.

Interstellar travel is a damn tough problem.

spike


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 14:50:47 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 10:50:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <003b01dbef4a$0ab983b0$202c8b10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001dbeeb5$1a8b2720$4fa17560$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhaE-HNaM0gz9qEMgboWgpCGSuqrU8BWyrbpKZ+hgLGSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003b01dbef4a$0ab983b0$202c8b10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRT791dtnhSSk2Awoi6p=63WFn41JXLYRYtiVJeDWc7Ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 7, 2025 at 10:20?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> He3 is generated in route with the
> breakdown of tritium.

Given how long it will take before we have a usable fusion drive,
mining the Moon or other places in the solar system for He3 will
likely be practical well before the mission will be fueled.  No need
to worry about the limitations of tritium.

> Interstellar travel is a damn tough problem.

Ironically, it's easier now than when we will actually have the technology.

That is because, not having the technology, solutions that handwave
the fine engineering details of specific implementations are accepted
- whereas once fusion drives actually exist, acceptable solutions will
require those fine engineering details.  It's like making a thesis
about how to get to orbit today, as opposed to what would have been
accepted by degree-granting institutions in 1925 - let alone 1825.


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 16:53:46 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 17:53:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <003b01dbef4a$0ab983b0$202c8b10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001dbeeb5$1a8b2720$4fa17560$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhaE-HNaM0gz9qEMgboWgpCGSuqrU8BWyrbpKZ+hgLGSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003b01dbef4a$0ab983b0$202c8b10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjXxdRiWahY2Q0W6NL3QdBsNWYNanZJotDfvf3PzTwpAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 7 Jul 2025 at 15:18, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Ja.  Deuterium isn't rare, and the He3 is generated in route with the
> breakdown of tritium.  The big problem is storing enough tritium, because
it
> has a half-life of about 12.5 yrs.  This would make it only useful for the
> acceleration phase.  The more I have thought about that problem, the more
I
> think this will be a few thousand year mission, with lower top speed, but
> with a more plausible scheme to slow down on the other end.  This
influenced
> my comment that I can see getting into Prox orbit a lot easier than I can
> see a particular planet there.
>
> Interstellar travel is a damn tough problem.
>
> spike
> ---------------------------------------


Oh, Ye of little faith!   :)
I asked Perplexity to explain its reasoning.
Basically, it depends on developing fusion drives, fuel sourcing and
shielding.
Present tech would indeed take thousands of years of travel time, so we
won't do it that way.
See the full explanation below -
BillK


*Perplexity ---*
Is a 57-Year Fusion-Powered Mission to Proxima Centauri Feasible? Short
Answer

*According to the latest research, including the 2025 thesis by Amelie M.
Lutz, a 57-year travel time to Proxima Centauri using fusion propulsion is
theoretically feasible?but only under optimistic technological assumptions.*
Thousands of years is not inevitable, but such a short travel time depends
on major advances in fusion propulsion, fuel sourcing, and spacecraft
engineering.
Evidence from the Lutz Thesis

The thesis Lutz, 2025
<https://ppl-ai-file-upload.s3.amazonaws.com/web/direct-files/attachments/3645031/611a8c82-7b32-4255-b27d-61779940a73b/Lutz_AM_T_2025.pdf>
specifically analyzes several fusion propulsion concepts for a large-scale
(500 kg payload) mission to Proxima b (in the Proxima Centauri system, 4.2
light-years away):

   -

   *Fusion Driven Rocket (FDR) with D-He3 fuel* is identified as the only
   configuration capable of both decelerating and entering a bounded orbit at
   Proxima b, with a total mission time of about *57 years*.
   -

   Other fusion fuels and propulsion concepts (such as D-D, D-T, p-B11, or
   Inertial Electrostatic Confinement and Antimatter-Initiated Microfusion)
   either result in much longer travel times (up to 119 years for a fast
   flyby, or longer for decelerated missions) or are not currently practical
   due to fuel sourcing or reactor limitations.
   -

   The 57-year figure assumes a ?slow flyby? or ?bounded orbit? scenario,
   including deceleration at the destination for meaningful science return.

*Key Table (from the thesis):*
Propulsion System Fuel Mission Time (years, slow flyby)
FDR D-He3 57
FDR D-T 55 (but with much more shielding)
FDR D-D 107
FDR p-B11 119
What Makes This Possible?

   -

   *Fusion Propulsion Efficiency:* Fusion offers exhaust velocities and
   energy densities far beyond chemical or fission systems, making high-speed,
   long-duration missions feasible in principle.
   -

   *Aneutronic Fuel (D-He3):* This fuel minimizes neutron production,
   reducing the need for heavy shielding and thus improving payload fraction
   and acceleration.
   -

   *Optimized Mission Profile:* The mission design includes both
   acceleration and deceleration phases, maximizing science return.

Major Caveats

   -

   *Fusion Technology Readiness:* No fusion propulsion system has yet flown
   in space, and even ground-based reactors are only now reaching net energy
   gain. Space-qualified, high-power, long-duration fusion reactors are still
   conceptual.
   -

   *D-He3 Fuel Sourcing:* Helium-3 is extremely rare on Earth. The thesis
   assumes future breakthroughs in lunar mining or other acquisition methods.
   -

   *Engineering Challenges:* Radiation shielding, heat rejection, long-term
   reliability, and autonomous operation over decades remain unsolved at scale.
   -

   *Assumptions:* The 57-year estimate is based on idealized or optimistic
   assumptions about system performance, reactor mass, and fuel availability.

Is Thousands of Years More Likely?

   -

   *With current technology:* Yes, travel times to Proxima Centauri with
   chemical, fission, or even near-term fusion systems would be measured in
   thousands to tens of thousands of years.
   -

   *With fusion breakthroughs:* If the necessary advances in fusion
   propulsion, fuel acquisition, and spacecraft engineering are achieved,
   travel times of 50?100 years become plausible for large, instrumented
   probes.

Conclusion

*A 57-year fusion-powered mission to Proxima Centauri is not science
fiction, but it is not yet within our technological grasp.* Theoretical
studies like Lutz (2025) show that such a mission is possible with fusion
propulsion?especially using D-He3 fuel and an optimized mission profile.
However, this scenario requires significant breakthroughs in fusion
technology, fuel sourcing, and spacecraft systems. Until those advances are
realized, interstellar travel times will remain much longer.

*In summary:*

   -

   *57 years is feasible in theory,* with advanced fusion propulsion and
   D-He3 fuel.
   -

   *Thousands of years is the reality with current or near-term technology.*
   -

   *The future hinges on fusion breakthroughs and engineering innovation.*

------------------------------------------------
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jul  7 18:36:25 2025
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 11:36:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea3b5a9194b7cf2f72b643c07140b56d@sollegro.com>

On 2025-07-06 13:14, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> How To Use Fusion To Get To Proxima Centauri's Potentially Habitable 
> Exoplanet
> By Andy Tomaswick - July 6, 2025
> 
> <https://www.universetoday.com/articles/how-to-use-fusion-to-get-to-proxima-centauris-potentially-habitable-exoplanet>
> Quote:
> That was the thought behind the Master?s Thesis of Amelie Lutz at
> Virginia Tech - she looked at the possibility of using fusion
> propulsion systems to send a few hundred kilogram probe to the system,
> and potentially even orbit it.
> The winning solution, according to her thesis, is a fusion driven
> rocket (FDR) configuration using D-He3 as a fuel source. By her
> calculations, such a system could arrive in the Proxima Centauri
> system and begin orbiting its target planet in around 57 years.
> ------------------
> 
> This is all speculation, of course, as a fusion drive hasn't been 
> invented yet.
> But it could happen in a possible future.
> BillK

While it's true that nobody has yet built a prototype fusion drive, 
there are already a few companies that are making progress and receiving 
funding. In the UK, there is Pulsar Fusion and in California there is 
Helicity Space.

https://pulsarfusion.com/

https://www.helicityspace.com/

Two other companies are developing nuclear propulsion tech, but I think 
they are fission engines:

https://x-energy.com/why/nuclear-and-space/nuclear-thermal-propulsion
https://www.bwxt.com/

Of note, Pulsar says they plan on orbital testing of components in 2027 
and hope to start production in 2030.

Stuart LaForge


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 19:42:51 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 15:42:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Use Fusion Drive To Get To Proxima Centauri
In-Reply-To: <ea3b5a9194b7cf2f72b643c07140b56d@sollegro.com>
References: <CAL_armgPccujcTrw5WcjcU0tMajYKnYfvs3iw9ge_iXNbaicRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ea3b5a9194b7cf2f72b643c07140b56d@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQZbRfT8FqHBO-87KT5uzPyw2tnUzgeRYoUP_FAP5NQrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 7, 2025 at 2:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Two other companies are developing nuclear propulsion tech, but I think
> they are fission engines:
>
> https://x-energy.com/why/nuclear-and-space/nuclear-thermal-propulsion
> https://www.bwxt.com/

Add CubeCab to the list, if we can get Phase II funding.  (I forget if
I said, but: anyone on this list who is a US person, feel free to ask
offlist for a copy of our Phase I report.  It's still undergoing
export control review, so it/s US persons only, but unrestricted
distribution aside from that.)

When we talked to BWXT, they were making fuel only, in support of the
DRACO project only, or so they told us.  With DRACO gone, I'm not sure
if they have any current active nuclear thermal propulsion projects.


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 07:11:36 2025
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2025 03:11:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Black Earth
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>

I finished reading "Stellar" by Tony Seba a few days ago. A complete
disappointment, confused and shallow which is a surprise coming from Seba.
But nuff' said about the book - reading it inspired me to think about the
future of our planet post-singularity. Of course, it's hard to make
post-singularity predictions but let's just assume known physics, no
magic-tech and guess how our world will look like in a few hundred years.

The AI, with or without us uploaded into it, will maximize its
computational capacity. I am guessing that the most significant limitation
on the planetary scale will be the ability to dissipate heat. Even the most
parsimonious non-reversible computation in the most esoteric quantum
computers will still generate some heat and a solid layer of computronium
over the whole planet would generate a lot.

The only long term heat sink available is the firmament and the only way to
transfer heat is to radiate. An atmosphere will be still needed to protect
the computronium from falling debris but it will consist of pure nitrogen.
All water, oxygen and carbon dioxide will be scrubbed and sequestered to
maximize heat radiation from the surface. The atmosphere will be very cold,
probably in the 200 kelvin range, crystal clear, with the sky appearing
almost black even in daytime.

Almost the whole surface of the planet will be covered by a continuous,
smooth, carbon-black layer of photosynthesizing artificial life. It will be
immortal and will keep the atmosphere scrubbed of unwanted gases and
vapors. It will generate enormous amounts of electricity that will be
transmitted by underground superconducting lines from the equator, where
most of electricity generation takes place, to the poles where the
conditions for radiating heat are the best and most of the computronium is
located.

Boreholes will be sunk around all volcanoes and magma hotspots to generate
geothermal energy and to extinguish volcanism and plate tectonics on a
global scale. Mountains will be ground down and carried to the depths. The
planet will be smoother than a billiard ball. The ocean will be a layer of
dead water sequestered under the black artificial life.

Additional power plants, fusion, fission and magic, will probably exist to
maximize the amount of energy that could be dissipated given the available
heat sink capacity.

I don't know what will be the optimal temperature for the fastest
computational machinery used by the AI. If the AI invents a
high-temperature computational process, then the areas of greatest
concentration of computing, at the poles, will glow - infrared, red or
maybe even dull orange. Buried gas conduits tens of miles in diameter will
carry gas sucked in at the temperate latitudes to the infernos at the
poles. A never-ending hurricane of cold nitrogen will blow through
miles-high heat exchangers, covering millions of square miles, like polar
caps of ever-burning forest. The heated exhaust will be a searing-hot
windstorm always blowing away from the poles to the equator, to be sucked
in after it cools off and be recirculated forever.

So there you are - Earth will become a smooth, carbon black globe with
glowing red irises at either pole, staring, Janus-faced, into the night sky.
-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Schuyler Biotech PLLC
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 20:27:02 2025
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2025 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Black Earth
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 3:13?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I finished reading "Stellar" by Tony Seba a few days ago. A complete
> disappointment, confused and shallow which is a surprise coming from Seba.
> But nuff' said about the book - reading it inspired me to think about the
> future of our planet post-singularity. Of course, it's hard to make
> post-singularity predictions but let's just assume known physics, no
> magic-tech and guess how our world will look like in a few hundred years.
>
> The AI, with or without us uploaded into it, will maximize its
> computational capacity. I am guessing that the most significant limitation
> on the planetary scale will be the ability to dissipate heat. Even the most
> parsimonious non-reversible computation in the most esoteric quantum
> computers will still generate some heat and a solid layer of computronium
> over the whole planet would generate a lot.
>
> The only long term heat sink available is the firmament and the only way
> to transfer heat is to radiate. An atmosphere will be still needed to
> protect the computronium from falling debris but it will consist of pure
> nitrogen. All water, oxygen and carbon dioxide will be scrubbed and
> sequestered to maximize heat radiation from the surface. The atmosphere
> will be very cold, probably in the 200 kelvin range, crystal clear, with
> the sky appearing almost black even in daytime.
>
> Almost the whole surface of the planet will be covered by a continuous,
> smooth, carbon-black layer of photosynthesizing artificial life. It will be
> immortal and will keep the atmosphere scrubbed of unwanted gases and
> vapors. It will generate enormous amounts of electricity that will be
> transmitted by underground superconducting lines from the equator, where
> most of electricity generation takes place, to the poles where the
> conditions for radiating heat are the best and most of the computronium is
> located.
>
> Boreholes will be sunk around all volcanoes and magma hotspots to generate
> geothermal energy and to extinguish volcanism and plate tectonics on a
> global scale. Mountains will be ground down and carried to the depths. The
> planet will be smoother than a billiard ball. The ocean will be a layer of
> dead water sequestered under the black artificial life.
>
> Additional power plants, fusion, fission and magic, will probably exist to
> maximize the amount of energy that could be dissipated given the available
> heat sink capacity.
>
> I don't know what will be the optimal temperature for the fastest
> computational machinery used by the AI. If the AI invents a
> high-temperature computational process, then the areas of greatest
> concentration of computing, at the poles, will glow - infrared, red or
> maybe even dull orange. Buried gas conduits tens of miles in diameter will
> carry gas sucked in at the temperate latitudes to the infernos at the
> poles. A never-ending hurricane of cold nitrogen will blow through
> miles-high heat exchangers, covering millions of square miles, like polar
> caps of ever-burning forest. The heated exhaust will be a searing-hot
> windstorm always blowing away from the poles to the equator, to be sucked
> in after it cools off and be recirculated forever.
>
> So there you are - Earth will become a smooth, carbon black globe with
> glowing red irises at either pole, staring, Janus-faced, into the night sky.
>

I have written a bit about what computronium might look like here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LJuOQooUaVN0eHvPcL0zuKUT9Z0CLKic/view?usp=sharing

One interesting insight: both our universe as a whole, and black holes, can
be seen as examples of computronium.

Jason
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 01:33:52 2025
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2025 21:33:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Black Earth
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUi15H=Yk2R0a11YwS2KGURzO4AVFnhuM_GXHqh8SKVf+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 3:13?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I finished reading "Stellar" by Tony Seba a few days ago. A complete
> disappointment, confused and shallow which is a surprise coming from Seba.
> But nuff' said about the book - reading it inspired me to think about the
> future of our planet post-singularity. Of course, it's hard to make
> post-singularity predictions but let's just assume known physics, no
> magic-tech and guess how our world will look like in a few hundred years.
>
> The AI, with or without us uploaded into it, will maximize its
> computational capacity. I am guessing that the most significant limitation
> on the planetary scale will be the ability to dissipate heat. Even the most
> parsimonious non-reversible computation in the most esoteric quantum
> computers will still generate some heat and a solid layer of computronium
> over the whole planet would generate a lot.
>
> The only long term heat sink available is the firmament and the only way
> to transfer heat is to radiate. An atmosphere will be still needed to
> protect the computronium from falling debris but it will consist of pure
> nitrogen. All water, oxygen and carbon dioxide will be scrubbed and
> sequestered to maximize heat radiation from the surface. The atmosphere
> will be very cold, probably in the 200 kelvin range, crystal clear, with
> the sky appearing almost black even in daytime.
>
> Almost the whole surface of the planet will be covered by a continuous,
> smooth, carbon-black layer of photosynthesizing artificial life. It will be
> immortal and will keep the atmosphere scrubbed of unwanted gases and
> vapors. It will generate enormous amounts of electricity that will be
> transmitted by underground superconducting lines from the equator, where
> most of electricity generation takes place, to the poles where the
> conditions for radiating heat are the best and most of the computronium is
> located.
>
> Boreholes will be sunk around all volcanoes and magma hotspots to generate
> geothermal energy and to extinguish volcanism and plate tectonics on a
> global scale. Mountains will be ground down and carried to the depths. The
> planet will be smoother than a billiard ball. The ocean will be a layer of
> dead water sequestered under the black artificial life.
>
> Additional power plants, fusion, fission and magic, will probably exist to
> maximize the amount of energy that could be dissipated given the available
> heat sink capacity.
>
> I don't know what will be the optimal temperature for the fastest
> computational machinery used by the AI. If the AI invents a
> high-temperature computational process, then the areas of greatest
> concentration of computing, at the poles, will glow - infrared, red or
> maybe even dull orange. Buried gas conduits tens of miles in diameter will
> carry gas sucked in at the temperate latitudes to the infernos at the
> poles. A never-ending hurricane of cold nitrogen will blow through
> miles-high heat exchangers, covering millions of square miles, like polar
> caps of ever-burning forest. The heated exhaust will be a searing-hot
> windstorm always blowing away from the poles to the equator, to be sucked
> in after it cools off and be recirculated forever.
>
> So there you are - Earth will become a smooth, carbon black globe with
> glowing red irises at either pole, staring, Janus-faced, into the night sky.
>

The first communications satellite was a giant inflatable mylar balloon (
https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/echo-nasas-first-communications-satellite/
). If you consider how much energy it takes to get something like that into
orbit, vs. how much additional energy it could collect from the sun (having
no atmosphere in the way, having 24/7 sunlight, and being able to radiate
directly into 2.7K cold space, and how much more than the surface of the
earth they could cover, how much time would it take to pay off the energy
cost of getting into a high-earth orbit or escaping the Earth's pull
altogether. I think when there are billions of years to pay off the cost,
the getting into orbit part is negligible.

And the black earth assumption is predicated on solar energy being the best
form of energy production (no fusion, no black hole engines, etc.). I think
there are probably better technologies and techniques available. Earth only
collects 4.5 x 10^-10 of the sun's rays, the rest goes off wasted. Further,
only 0.7% of the sun's mass will convert to energy, and it will take 5
billion years to get it. If we instead dropped the sun's mass (or any mass
for that matter) into a black hole, we could turn ~100% of that mass into
radiation. For example, Hawking wrote
<https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35421439> "A mountain-sized
black hole would give off X-rays and gamma rays, at a rate of about 10
million megawatts, enough to power the world's electricity supply."

These are just some of the ideas humans with their tiny brains have been
able to come up with. I have little doubt that a superintelligence could
devise still better ideas.

Jason
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 05:10:04 2025
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:10:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Black Earth
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUi15H=Yk2R0a11YwS2KGURzO4AVFnhuM_GXHqh8SKVf+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi15H=Yk2R0a11YwS2KGURzO4AVFnhuM_GXHqh8SKVf+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQdBrPp2mokufF7R3cX237++Aic6jm0sTC7Yfkg21D-+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Playing with black holes at the bottom of the gravity well of your only
biosphere is probably not a great plan.

"Use only in a well-ventilated area - like the Kuiper Belt."

On Tue, Jul 8, 2025, 7:36 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 3:13?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I finished reading "Stellar" by Tony Seba a few days ago. A complete
>> disappointment, confused and shallow which is a surprise coming from Seba.
>> But nuff' said about the book - reading it inspired me to think about the
>> future of our planet post-singularity. Of course, it's hard to make
>> post-singularity predictions but let's just assume known physics, no
>> magic-tech and guess how our world will look like in a few hundred years.
>>
>> The AI, with or without us uploaded into it, will maximize its
>> computational capacity. I am guessing that the most significant limitation
>> on the planetary scale will be the ability to dissipate heat. Even the most
>> parsimonious non-reversible computation in the most esoteric quantum
>> computers will still generate some heat and a solid layer of computronium
>> over the whole planet would generate a lot.
>>
>> The only long term heat sink available is the firmament and the only way
>> to transfer heat is to radiate. An atmosphere will be still needed to
>> protect the computronium from falling debris but it will consist of pure
>> nitrogen. All water, oxygen and carbon dioxide will be scrubbed and
>> sequestered to maximize heat radiation from the surface. The atmosphere
>> will be very cold, probably in the 200 kelvin range, crystal clear, with
>> the sky appearing almost black even in daytime.
>>
>> Almost the whole surface of the planet will be covered by a continuous,
>> smooth, carbon-black layer of photosynthesizing artificial life. It will be
>> immortal and will keep the atmosphere scrubbed of unwanted gases and
>> vapors. It will generate enormous amounts of electricity that will be
>> transmitted by underground superconducting lines from the equator, where
>> most of electricity generation takes place, to the poles where the
>> conditions for radiating heat are the best and most of the computronium is
>> located.
>>
>> Boreholes will be sunk around all volcanoes and magma hotspots to
>> generate geothermal energy and to extinguish volcanism and plate tectonics
>> on a global scale. Mountains will be ground down and carried to the depths.
>> The planet will be smoother than a billiard ball. The ocean will be a layer
>> of dead water sequestered under the black artificial life.
>>
>> Additional power plants, fusion, fission and magic, will probably exist
>> to maximize the amount of energy that could be dissipated given the
>> available heat sink capacity.
>>
>> I don't know what will be the optimal temperature for the fastest
>> computational machinery used by the AI. If the AI invents a
>> high-temperature computational process, then the areas of greatest
>> concentration of computing, at the poles, will glow - infrared, red or
>> maybe even dull orange. Buried gas conduits tens of miles in diameter will
>> carry gas sucked in at the temperate latitudes to the infernos at the
>> poles. A never-ending hurricane of cold nitrogen will blow through
>> miles-high heat exchangers, covering millions of square miles, like polar
>> caps of ever-burning forest. The heated exhaust will be a searing-hot
>> windstorm always blowing away from the poles to the equator, to be sucked
>> in after it cools off and be recirculated forever.
>>
>> So there you are - Earth will become a smooth, carbon black globe with
>> glowing red irises at either pole, staring, Janus-faced, into the night sky.
>>
>
> The first communications satellite was a giant inflatable mylar balloon (
> https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/echo-nasas-first-communications-satellite/
> ). If you consider how much energy it takes to get something like that into
> orbit, vs. how much additional energy it could collect from the sun (having
> no atmosphere in the way, having 24/7 sunlight, and being able to radiate
> directly into 2.7K cold space, and how much more than the surface of the
> earth they could cover, how much time would it take to pay off the energy
> cost of getting into a high-earth orbit or escaping the Earth's pull
> altogether. I think when there are billions of years to pay off the cost,
> the getting into orbit part is negligible.
>
> And the black earth assumption is predicated on solar energy being the
> best form of energy production (no fusion, no black hole engines, etc.). I
> think there are probably better technologies and techniques available.
> Earth only collects 4.5 x 10^-10 of the sun's rays, the rest goes off
> wasted. Further, only 0.7% of the sun's mass will convert to energy, and it
> will take 5 billion years to get it. If we instead dropped the sun's mass
> (or any mass for that matter) into a black hole, we could turn ~100% of
> that mass into radiation. For example, Hawking wrote
> <https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35421439> "A mountain-sized
> black hole would give off X-rays and gamma rays, at a rate of about 10
> million megawatts, enough to power the world's electricity supply."
>
> These are just some of the ideas humans with their tiny brains have been
> able to come up with. I have little doubt that a superintelligence could
> devise still better ideas.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 09:19:24 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 10:19:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Our radar means ET knows we're here
Message-ID: <CAL_armiffSAt0d799WouF986gUuZ-Qf2M49s1qhCQevsN=ikEA@mail.gmail.com>

Like it or not, radar means ET knows we're here
By David Szondy       July 08, 2025

<https://newatlas.com/space/radar-means-et-knows-were-here/>
Quote:
It turns out that when it comes to high-powered directional radar
signals, the Earth is screaming like a banshee and has been since the
early years of the Cold War in the 1950s. According to the study, the
combined civilian radar signals from our planet add up to a whopping
2x1016 watts, with military systems adding in a more focused and
directional signal of 1x1014 watts. And it generates a radio signature
that screams artificial technology.

This leakage from the Earth's air traffic and defense systems means
that we are extremely visible to anyone within 200 light years of us
that has a radio telescope equivalent to the Green Bank Telescope in
West Virginia. If we take into account earlier studies that included
larger, more powerful telescopes like the defunct Arecibo Observatory
that limit extends to over 60,000 light years.
-------------------------

OK, so maybe ET knows we're here. But we haven't detected similar
radar signals coming from nearby stars.
That means ET is not at the same stage of development as us and
doesn't use similar radar systems. ET, like us, is still faced with
the problem of the huge distances between star systems. When a star is
200 light years away, just saying "Hi" and getting a reply takes 400
years. Actually visiting would take far, far longer.
How to deal with the huge distances between star systems is a problem
for all ETs.

BillK

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 12:11:17 2025
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 08:11:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Our radar means ET knows we're here
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiffSAt0d799WouF986gUuZ-Qf2M49s1qhCQevsN=ikEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiffSAt0d799WouF986gUuZ-Qf2M49s1qhCQevsN=ikEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjvXTs-758nQHji=O012DhSM-o19Zd+W_5uhEpypzxTDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 5:21 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Like it or not, radar means ET knows we're here
> By David Szondy       July 08, 2025
>
> <https://newatlas.com/space/radar-means-et-knows-were-here/>
> Quote:
> It turns out that when it comes to high-powered directional radar
> signals, the Earth is screaming like a banshee and has been since the
> early years of the Cold War in the 1950s. According to the study, the
> combined civilian radar signals from our planet add up to a whopping
> 2x1016 watts, with military systems adding in a more focused and
> directional signal of 1x1014 watts. And it generates a radio signature
> that screams artificial technology.
>


In Sagan's "Contact" it was our television transmissions.

But I think the more obvious (and much farther propagating) signal is the
spectral reflections of light from Earth's atmosphere, which would be
screaming the presence of life for billions of years to anyone bothering to
look in our direction. Similar to how we recently detected biogenic gases
on nearby explanets.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/17/science/k218b-potential-biosignature-webb


> This leakage from the Earth's air traffic and defense systems means
> that we are extremely visible to anyone within 200 light years of us
> that has a radio telescope equivalent to the Green Bank Telescope in
> West Virginia. If we take into account earlier studies that included
> larger, more powerful telescopes like the defunct Arecibo Observatory
> that limit extends to over 60,000 light years.


Eventually, but there are caveats.

This estimate assumes a similar sized antenna (as arecibo) pointed at the
same direction of earth waiting for arecibo's message, and within the path
of the highly directional transmission. And so far it's only had 51 years
to propagate, so the detection range is so far only 51 light years.


-------------------------
>
> OK, so maybe ET knows we're here. But we haven't detected similar
> radar signals coming from nearby stars.
> That means ET is not at the same stage of development as us and
> doesn't use similar radar systems.


We've only had radio ~130 years and we've already largely switched to fiber
optic and spread spectrum radio transmissions which are much harder to
distinguish from background noise. The window for obvious (incidental)
broadcasts of radio signals is therefore quite short when compared to
evolutionary time scales.


ET, like us, is still faced with
> the problem of the huge distances between star systems. When a star is
> 200 light years away, just saying "Hi" and getting a reply takes 400
> years. Actually visiting would take far, far longer.
> How to deal with the huge distances between star systems is a problem
> for all ETs.
>

On evolutionary time scales, it doesn't take long for an intelligent
civilization to spread throughout the galaxy and be everywhere at once. Von
Neumann probes can spread to reach every star system in the Galaxy in just
a million years. Moreover, with the computing capacity available to such
civilizations, it is also possible such probes could carry the uploaded
minds of every member of that civilization. Thus, they could all be
everywhere, and they would give no obvious signal of their presence (they
live in VR, running on comoutrobium on something no larger than a school
bus, not on far off planets blasting radio signals). In fact, every
intelligent civilization that's ever arisen in the Galaxy (and survived
long enough) could be everywhere already.

For a short story based on this idea, see:
http://FromBob.to

Jason
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 02:52:26 2025
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 22:52:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Black Earth
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUi15H=Yk2R0a11YwS2KGURzO4AVFnhuM_GXHqh8SKVf+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi15H=Yk2R0a11YwS2KGURzO4AVFnhuM_GXHqh8SKVf+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhf3ua=W4KtEQKV1=TJT37AgNukNF_bB60KfBhCMTTW3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 9:34?PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 3:13?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> So there you are - Earth will become a smooth, carbon black globe with
>> glowing red irises at either pole, staring, Janus-faced, into the night sky.
>>
>
> The first communications satellite was a giant inflatable mylar balloon (
> https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/echo-nasas-first-communications-satellite/
> ). If you consider how much energy it takes to get something like that into
> orbit, vs. how much additional energy it could collect from the sun (having
> no atmosphere in the way, having 24/7 sunlight, and being able to radiate
> directly into 2.7K cold space, and how much more than the surface of the
> earth they could cover, how much time would it take to pay off the energy
> cost of getting into a high-earth orbit or escaping the Earth's pull
> altogether. I think when there are billions of years to pay off the cost,
> the getting into orbit part is negligible.
>

### Yes, absolutely - in the long term the AI might perhaps disassemble all
planets to create a Dyson swarm or invent some other source of negentropy
that would provide a better return per unit mass than any achievable with
solar cells, which would make harvesting solar energy a losing proposition.

But in the short term, a few hundred years, the Black Earth could happen...
and as you may guess, my post was a bit of a setup to be able to finish
with an epic, foreboding image - the Red Eyes of Earth staring into the
abyss :)

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 03:21:10 2025
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 23:21:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 4:29?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> One interesting insight: both our universe as a whole, and black holes,
> can be seen as examples of computronium.
>
>
### So I know next to nothing about physics, especially in the arcane area
of black hole theories but one thing really bugs me - the notion of the
singularity at the center of a black hole. It just doesn't make sense. In
this model the Hawking radiation that carries information is created at the
horizon but the mass of the hole is located potentially millions of miles
away (in the quasar-sized holes) in the center. How are they connected?
Really? I don't like it.

What about the following idea - there is no singularity because there is no
"inside" the bole. All that exists is the event horizon. Infalling matter
settles on the horizon as some Planck-scale energy-matter composite,
approaching a 2D state of existence as time slows down to the lowest clock
rate possible in this universe, as needed to accommodate the highest
possible density of bits that can be handled by our physics. The black hole
is a 2D manifold immersed in our 3D world that creates weird distortions
which we, with our 3D intuitions, perceive as a 3D sphere.

Is this possible? Is it something related to the black brane or M-brane
theory, and the firewall and other such high-faluting stuff?

Let's get rid of singularities!

Rafal
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 09:48:26 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 10:48:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous robot surgeon removes organs with 100% success rate
Message-ID: <CAL_armjqxRZKPLyom2W5C=1rf0KNxMzvLZKj56rvtyYDxash4A@mail.gmail.com>

Autonomous robot surgeon removes organs with 100% success rate
By Bronwyn Thompson    July 10, 2025

<https://newatlas.com/robotics/worlds-first-robot-surgery/>
Quote:
Researchers at Johns Hopkins University trained a robot on videos of
operations, and then had it conduct a gallbladder removal on its own ?
with no mechanical help, just voice commands, like a theater team
assisting the lead surgeon. Named SRT-H (Surgical Robot
Transformer-Hierarchy), the robot absorbed its training and converted
it to practice, with the ability to extract the gallbladder time and
time again, and adjusting in real-time when needed.

"This advancement moves us from robots that can execute specific
surgical tasks to robots that truly understand surgical procedures,"
said medical roboticist Azwl Krieger. "This is a critical distinction
that brings us significantly closer to clinically viable autonomous
surgical systems that can work in the messy, unpredictable reality of
actual patient care."
------------------------

Remarkable!  But I hope the robot never misunderstands the voice
commands due to unusual accents or unclear speech.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 14:33:18 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 15:33:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 at 04:24, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ### So I know next to nothing about physics, especially in the arcane area of black hole theories but one thing really bugs me - the notion of the singularity at the center of a black hole. It just doesn't make sense. In this model the Hawking radiation that carries information is created at the horizon but the mass of the hole is located potentially millions of miles away (in the quasar-sized holes) in the center. How are they connected? Really? I don't like it.
>
> What about the following idea - there is no singularity because there is no "inside" the bole. All that exists is the event horizon. Infalling matter settles on the horizon as some Planck-scale energy-matter composite, approaching a 2D state of existence as time slows down to the lowest clock rate possible in this universe, as needed to accommodate the highest possible density of bits that can be handled by our physics. The black hole is a 2D manifold immersed in our 3D world that creates weird distortions which we, with our 3D intuitions, perceive as a 3D sphere.
>
> Is this possible? Is it something related to the black brane or M-brane theory, and the firewall and other such high-faluting stuff?
> Let's get rid of singularities!
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________


There are alternative speculative theories about black holes.
But speculative is the operative word.
<https://phys.org/news/2025-05-alternative-black-hole-quantum-effects.html>

Nonsingular black hole models -
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsingular_black_hole_models>
And then there is string theory as well.

Current standard theory is that the black hole horizon is not a
physical surface. It is the mathematical boundary beyond which
nothing, not even light, can escape from the black hole.
Hawking radiation and black hole evaporation are *really* complicated.
Attempts at a simple explanation may confuse the unwary.
See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation>

The singularity inside black holes is probably a placeholder for
"Sorry, we don't know".  :)


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul 10 15:37:50 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 08:37:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat


>...The singularity inside black holes is probably a placeholder for "Sorry,
we don't know".  :)


BillK

_______________________________________________



Ja, that is how we are using the term too.  All bets are off, we have no
models that can reliably predict what happens when artificial intelligence
somehow develops a will of its own.

Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  Under
sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are pushed
into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, huge ball
of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it crushes
the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our equations
fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it is.
The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.

spike




From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jul 10 16:59:57 2025
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 18:59:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>



> Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  Under
> sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are pushed
> into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, huge ball
> of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it crushes
> the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our equations
> fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it is.
> The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
> 
> spike
 
Quark stars are possible. 

But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau is proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading an imaginary clock situated on the particle. 

Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.

https://link.springer.com/book/9789819507313?srsltid=AfmBOoq6GQOG9_GyIN_djz2xudlwkszhypfd0xyyyOL3LCFV7LiaNcYj

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 17:16:27 2025
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 13:16:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
 <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhP_5VxAmPSnGBAbXup3P3CkVgxCDQuAN3tJiONaP68fw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 1:01 PM scerir via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> > Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  Under
> > sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are
> pushed
> > into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, huge
> ball
> > of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it
> crushes
> > the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our
> equations
> > fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it
> is.
> > The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
> >
> > spike
>
> Quark stars are possible.
>
> But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting
> uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau is
> proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical quantities
> measured in a particular system of reference: the particle rest frame.
> Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses the standard
> deviation of measures from external frames of the reading an imaginary
> clock situated on the particle.
>
> Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.
>
>
> https://link.springer.com/book/9789819507313?srsltid=AfmBOoq6GQOG9_GyIN_djz2xudlwkszhypfd0xyyyOL3LCFV7LiaNcYj


Interesting. I wonder to what extent this mirrors, or relates the better
known time-energy uncertainty relation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle#Energy%E2%80%93time

https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/uncertainty.html

The time-energy uncertainty relation is the most relevant bound for the
fastest physically possible computers. Clock speed is bounded by the
frequency of the system, which depends on mass/energy.

Jason
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From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jul 10 20:34:08 2025
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 22:34:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhP_5VxAmPSnGBAbXup3P3CkVgxCDQuAN3tJiONaP68fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
 <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
 <CA+BCJUhP_5VxAmPSnGBAbXup3P3CkVgxCDQuAN3tJiONaP68fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <635842914.2048662.1752179648812@mail1.libero.it>

As Greenberger (and others) say "There is an argument due to Pauli that says that the energy and lab time
cannot be treated as operators, because the time, like the momentum, is unbounded. The momentum acts like a displacement operator for position, and this shows that the position must be unbounded. The same argument would show that the energy would be unbounded. But in our case, the situation is more complicated, because the proper time is not really unbounded, but has an upperlimit given by the lab time.
So there are many real, unresolved issues concerning time, the perception of time, and the meaning of proper time, that arise in quantum theory. Connected to this, there are many problems connected with the concept of mass. It would certainly be a worthwhile project to sort them out, or at least make progress in that
direction."

If I remember well there are many different interpretations of the time-energy uncertainty delta E x delta t > h.

What is t? Time of the clock in some laboratory? Textbook quantum mechanics treats time as a classical parameter, and not as a quantum observable with an associated Hermitian operator. For this reason, to make sense of usual time-energy uncertainty relation, the term delta t must be interpreted as a time interval, and not as a time measurement uncertainty due to quantum noise. Aharonov (and others) wrote many interesting papers about that.

https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0105049

In proper time - mass uncertainty relation, mass and proper time are physical quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty
delta tau expresses the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading an imaginary clock situated on the particle. The delta t term  of the time-energy uncertainty relation is the time interval measured in a particular coordinate system. It is not only a matter of reference frames, the usual (time-energy) uncertainty relation originates generally from the kinetic or potential energy of the body, rather than its rest energy. Whereas the mass-proper time uncertainty relation can arise from gravitational potential.

Look, the time-energy relation is very interesting, The incredible Franson interferometer for entangled photons is based on that relation. Have a look.

> Il 10/07/2025 19:16 CEST Jas. Have a look.on Resch via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> ha scritto:
>  
>  
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 1:01 PM scerir via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  Under
> > > sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are pushed
> > > into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, huge ball
> > > of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it crushes
> > > the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our equations
> > > fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it is.
> > > The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
> > >
> > > spike
> > 
> > Quark stars are possible.
> > 
> > But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau is proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading an imaginary clock situated on the particle.
> > 
> > Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.
> > 
> > https://link.springer.com/book/9789819507313?srsltid=AfmBOoq6GQOG9_GyIN_djz2xudlwkszhypfd0xyyyOL3LCFV7LiaNcYj
> > 
>  
> Interesting. I wonder to what extent this mirrors, or relates the better known time-energy uncertainty relation:
>  
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle#Energy%E2%80%93time
>  
> https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/uncertainty.html
>  
> The time-energy uncertainty relation is the most relevant bound for the fastest physically possible computers. Clock speed is bounded by the frequency of the system, which depends on mass/energy.
>  
> Jason 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 22:05:07 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:05:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gen Z: We must resist the temptation to cheat on everything
Message-ID: <CAL_armj-CnVxK=wwtYMPBOcAS=Z8gpCt3WqN4o8sFcrnbdhF4g@mail.gmail.com>

Gen Z: We must resist the temptation to cheat on everything.
Relying on AI to do our thinking now could cost humanity its best
possible future.
By Kiara Nirghin    July 10, 2025

<https://www.freethink.com/artificial-intelligence/gen-z-cheat-on-everything>
Quote:
Now that artificial intelligence can perform complex cognitive tasks,
many of my peers have embraced the ?cheat on everything? mentality: If
AI can do something for you ? write a paper, close a sale, secure a
job ? let it. The future belongs to those who can most effectively
outsource their cognitive labor to algorithms, they argue.

But I think they?re completely wrong.
-------
At the same time, if humans consistently defer cognitive
responsibilities to AI, the relationship can shift from partnership to
dependency. The shift is gradual and subtle, beginning with routine
tasks but later encompassing complex thinking. As reliance increases,
cognitive muscles atrophy. What starts as occasional assistance
becomes habitual dependence ? and eventually, humans lose the capacity
to function effectively without artificial support.
-------
Gen Z is standing at a historic crossroads. We can either use AI to
amplify our human capabilities and develop cognitive sovereignty ? or
allow it to atrophy those capabilities and surrender to cognitive
dependency.
---------------------------------

This problem will only get worse as AI improves in performance.
Most humans are lazy. They will gladly let AI do the hard work of thinking.
The future will be very .... different.

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 01:04:12 2025
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 21:04:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gen Z: We must resist the temptation to cheat on
 everything
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj-CnVxK=wwtYMPBOcAS=Z8gpCt3WqN4o8sFcrnbdhF4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj-CnVxK=wwtYMPBOcAS=Z8gpCt3WqN4o8sFcrnbdhF4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJf3f4n-+POpz98Ce2C4ce1pZ+HnFc1dWg4s8K8_O1p2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 6:07 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> This problem will only get worse as AI improves in performance.
> Most humans are lazy. They will gladly let AI do the hard work of thinking.
> The future will be very .... different.
>

I would like to be consulted as non-atrophied human SME for certain
situations.   I can't help myself, articulating my dissent despite the
utter lack of understanding by my audience.  Ironically, AI seems to
understand sentence structure that humans do not; AI understands vocabulary
that humans do not.  So, weirdly, AI make grok my meaning about AI in ways
no human ever will.  I guess I can only aspire to providing a similar level
of "i got you" to some other sentience at some point.

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul 11 04:10:08 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 21:10:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gen Z: We must resist the temptation to cheat on
 everything
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJf3f4n-+POpz98Ce2C4ce1pZ+HnFc1dWg4s8K8_O1p2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj-CnVxK=wwtYMPBOcAS=Z8gpCt3WqN4o8sFcrnbdhF4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJf3f4n-+POpz98Ce2C4ce1pZ+HnFc1dWg4s8K8_O1p2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010401dbf219$b0b9c370$122d4a50$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gen Z: We must resist the temptation to cheat on everything

 

On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 6:07 PM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:


This problem will only get worse as AI improves in performance.
Most humans are lazy. They will gladly let AI do the hard work of thinking.
The future will be very .... different.

 

 

Different ja, and it aughta be.  We pay academics to teach the young.  It is their responsibility to stay up to speed and relevant.  The curriculum must adapt and evolve.  The task gets ever more difficult, I get that, but that is why we hire smart people to be professors.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 16:22:42 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 17:22:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked the
 Universe
Message-ID: <CAL_armj28MGF89cLMGqMhnW94NoOjJWZJY-Ovqr+4h673m4+tg@mail.gmail.com>

The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked the Universe
The gravitational waves they emitted were fiercely powerful, but where
did the black holes come from?
Philip Plait     July 14, 2025

<https://badastronomy.beehiiv.com/p/the-biggest-black-hole-merger-ever-detected-so-far-rocked-the-universe-dc6b8bba789d58bd>
Quote:
In the last few orbits before they merge, taking just a fraction of a
second, they create a blast of waves that can be incredibly powerful.
These waves march across the Universe, and flow over Earth.
When that happens, spacetime itself contracts and expands.
The effect is small; over an object the size of Earth the stretching
is only a few times the size of a proton!
---------------------

But LIGO can detect it.  Isn't science marvellous?
BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 14 16:36:10 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 09:36:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked
 the Universe
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj28MGF89cLMGqMhnW94NoOjJWZJY-Ovqr+4h673m4+tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj28MGF89cLMGqMhnW94NoOjJWZJY-Ovqr+4h673m4+tg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002e01dbf4dd$688e5630$39ab0290$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 14 July, 2025 9:23 AM
Subject: [ExI] The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked the
Universe

The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked the Universe The
gravitational waves they emitted were fiercely powerful, but where did the
black holes come from?
Philip Plait     July 14, 2025

<https://badastronomy.beehiiv.com/p/the-biggest-black-hole-merger-ever-detec
ted-so-far-rocked-the-universe-dc6b8bba789d58bd>
Quote:
In the last few orbits before they merge, taking just a fraction of a
second, they create a blast of waves that can be incredibly powerful.
These waves march across the Universe, and flow over Earth.
When that happens, spacetime itself contracts and expands.
The effect is small; over an object the size of Earth the stretching is only
a few times the size of a proton!
---------------------

But LIGO can detect it.  Isn't science marvellous?
BillK
_______________________________________________



Isn't it cool?  The astronomy sites are buzzing about this.  I recall when
they received the signal and told us what it looked like, but they would
need some time to analyze and verify it.  I had a hard time believing two
black holes of that size could find each other.  It strains my imagination
trying to figure out how those monsters would form, never mind how they
would get close enough together to dissipate all that angular momentum and
merge.

Well somehow they did.  There's still plenty we just don't understand about
the origin of the universe.  Rather there is plenty that I don't understand.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 14 16:47:42 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 09:47:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



?>>?This has been available since at least last year.
?
>>?Some people have done this already. ?  BillK

 

 

 

>?Hey cool!  I already have a huge body of text, nearly thirty years of posting to Extr?  op?

 

>?Oh dear, I have problem on my hands, a big problem BillK.  

 

>?Fortunately it comes with a solution: I must outlive my bride.  spike

 

 

BillK, OK I thought about it for a coupla weeks and came up with a better plan than the implausible notion that I will outlive my bride (she is younger than I am (and female.))

 

I can make a me-bot which responds differently based on who it is addressing.  The training material would come from my sent mail folder, but it would train multiple personalities based on who the email was sent to.  For instance if one of you logs on to visit with my me-bot, it would use the material I posted specifically to ExI-chat.  It would train on that exclusively.  If it is someone else, one of my math guys or astronomy guys or libertarian guys or motorcycle guys, it would only respond from training based on stuff I sent to those forums.

 

In some cases, there isn?t enough actual material to train a me-bot, so I supplement it with about 600 pages of text from a journal I kept from about 1989 to about 2010 with posts to it nearly every day, and sporadically thereafter.

 

So that would create an adaptive me-bot, which is the real me in a sense, for we are all adaptive intelligences: we talk differently to our neighbor from how we talk to our family members, our online contacts, etc.  If I was posting to a motorcycle buddy and went off on some of the stuff we discuss here, he would be certain I had completely lost my mind.  So? an adaptive me-bot is a possible solution.

 

spike

 

 

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 17:24:22 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 11:24:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCumpqOL9bTtota6m_fr-91HjopHFRcY9euLaF-vXt1qw@mail.gmail.com>

"All things are possible with enough data."
                                       -Matthew 19:26

-Kelly

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 10:48?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>
> ?>>?This has been available since at least last year.
> ?
> >>?Some people have done this already. ?  BillK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Hey cool!  I already have a huge body of text, nearly thirty years of posting to Extr?  op?
>
>
>
> >?Oh dear, I have problem on my hands, a big problem BillK.
>
>
>
> >?Fortunately it comes with a solution: I must outlive my bride.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
> BillK, OK I thought about it for a coupla weeks and came up with a better plan than the implausible notion that I will outlive my bride (she is younger than I am (and female.))
>
>
>
> I can make a me-bot which responds differently based on who it is addressing.  The training material would come from my sent mail folder, but it would train multiple personalities based on who the email was sent to.  For instance if one of you logs on to visit with my me-bot, it would use the material I posted specifically to ExI-chat.  It would train on that exclusively.  If it is someone else, one of my math guys or astronomy guys or libertarian guys or motorcycle guys, it would only respond from training based on stuff I sent to those forums.
>
>
>
> In some cases, there isn?t enough actual material to train a me-bot, so I supplement it with about 600 pages of text from a journal I kept from about 1989 to about 2010 with posts to it nearly every day, and sporadically thereafter.
>
>
>
> So that would create an adaptive me-bot, which is the real me in a sense, for we are all adaptive intelligences: we talk differently to our neighbor from how we talk to our family members, our online contacts, etc.  If I was posting to a motorcycle buddy and went off on some of the stuff we discuss here, he would be certain I had completely lost my mind.  So? an adaptive me-bot is a possible solution.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 17:47:31 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 11:47:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked
 the Universe
In-Reply-To: <002e01dbf4dd$688e5630$39ab0290$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armj28MGF89cLMGqMhnW94NoOjJWZJY-Ovqr+4h673m4+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002e01dbf4dd$688e5630$39ab0290$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnC8U9woe_j1ksfgKntiJBAp3pG6Q-GBN9D6wJdpHwf5xA@mail.gmail.com>

One likely way two massive black holes could merge is when galaxies
collide. Most galaxies have a massive black hole at their center. So I
wonder if the black hole at the center of Andromeda is expected to
merge with the Milky Way's black hole when the two galaxies collide
here in a few billion years?

-Kelly

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 10:36?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> Sent: Monday, 14 July, 2025 9:23 AM
> Subject: [ExI] The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked the
> Universe
>
> The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked the Universe The
> gravitational waves they emitted were fiercely powerful, but where did the
> black holes come from?
> Philip Plait     July 14, 2025
>
> <https://badastronomy.beehiiv.com/p/the-biggest-black-hole-merger-ever-detec
> ted-so-far-rocked-the-universe-dc6b8bba789d58bd>
> Quote:
> In the last few orbits before they merge, taking just a fraction of a
> second, they create a blast of waves that can be incredibly powerful.
> These waves march across the Universe, and flow over Earth.
> When that happens, spacetime itself contracts and expands.
> The effect is small; over an object the size of Earth the stretching is only
> a few times the size of a proton!
> ---------------------
>
> But LIGO can detect it.  Isn't science marvellous?
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Isn't it cool?  The astronomy sites are buzzing about this.  I recall when
> they received the signal and told us what it looked like, but they would
> need some time to analyze and verify it.  I had a hard time believing two
> black holes of that size could find each other.  It strains my imagination
> trying to figure out how those monsters would form, never mind how they
> would get close enough together to dissipate all that angular momentum and
> merge.
>
> Well somehow they did.  There's still plenty we just don't understand about
> the origin of the universe.  Rather there is plenty that I don't understand.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 17:52:29 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 11:52:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ten year ban on state ai regulations?
In-Reply-To: <00c001dbeb6d$42dfd6d0$c89f8470$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501dbea98$96e9e0c0$c4bda240$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1Cb+L7VAAMcWwU4tjaM=6-qZD6VEiRMhMXHupEwCXWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a701dbeaa1$86ba6b80$942f4280$@rainier66.com>
 <00c601dbeaa4$554cbc30$ffe63490$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRa9J70w6OGZsRbKKvGSo39QYufDgkdEXtUjMwWOs_2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c001dbeb6d$42dfd6d0$c89f8470$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCjwOJpUEK5L=qUTezUY3=zdALNuq3ndjrP0eAufs4YTA@mail.gmail.com>

According to reports I've read (or seen on YouTube, I don't recall),
there are already scammers that simulate the voice of a loved one
needing to be bailed out of jail. Of course, any money sent doesn't go
to any real jail. This is why I've many times recommended that people
create pass codes with their loved ones so that they can determine if
they are real when the time comes.

-Kelly

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 10:21?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Adrian wrote:
>
>
>
> >?Being unable to imagine it is not much of an issue in this case.  Simply look up how the states are doing it - those states that have AI regulations, anyway?  Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
> Legal Definition of AI: The definition provided by California for AI is: "an engineered or machine-based system that varies in its level of autonomy and that can, for explicit or implicit objectives, infer from the input it receives how to generate outputs that can influence physical or virtual environments" (AB-2885).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK, so California now regulates nearly all software development, depending on how one defines the term ?regulates.?  It identifies AI without actually saying it is two letters, and a fancy thing.  OK then, that?s progress.  Or perhaps not, but in any case, there is one thing in there that makes a lotta sense: AB-2905 requires robocallers to disclose when they used deep-fake-created voices.  This is intriguing in itself: are they now claiming that deep fake AI can have real-time discussions with people and mimic a particular voice?  If so, my vision is complete: we can now have a robo-companion for the elderly, in which the patient can have discussions with a machine which uses the image and voice of a deceased companion.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 18:27:55 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 12:27:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Autonomous killer drones will soon be here
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjY8o_t6grroQHpqLGtRACnp+PD1UmA2sK2WASTiF6Zrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBWOVdCBUhO4VTJo4-TXab3zYaVy3tUV5aAqmnS81J1tA@mail.gmail.com>

I've been following the Ukraine drone thing pretty closely, and if it
isn't propaganda, they already have drones that recognize a set of
predefined pieces of military kit, and automatically engage those it
is programmed to go after. Be it a tank, armoured personnel carrier or
an oil tank. They have to in order to get around the electronic
interference that keeps them from talking directly to the drone in the
last few seconds as it closes in on its target. I'm unaware of any
autonomous drones that go after individuals, other than the last few
seconds after the target has already been chosen by a human.

On June 6, a Ukrainian drone swarm struck the Russian oil depot in
Saratov which supplies Russia?s strategic bomber fleet located at the
nearby Engels-2 airbase. These 17 drones were completely autonomous
for the last 25 km of their attack vector and chose between them which
one would hit which tank. One drone was shot down, and the rest just
sorted it out and carried on the attack. The fuel burned is pretty
rare and means that certain airplanes are grounded until they can
refine more, and figure out how to store it. All for less than the
price of a nice Moscow apartment.

-Kelly

On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 3:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 at 21:20, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Now of course AI is going to be used for defense.  I will make the case, later today perhaps but more likely in the next few days, that we can imagine a case where AI will guide weapons to destroy other weapons.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> The Ukraine and Russian techies are developing drone warfare at a
> fantastic pace.
> Every enhancement becomes obsolete within three months.
> They want drones to have the intelligence to select and destroy their
> targets autonomously..
> It won't take long for this to be achieved.
>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/25/ukraine-russia-autonomous-drones-ai>
> Quotes:
> Killing machines: how Russia and Ukraine?s race to perfect deadly
> pilotless drones could harm us all.
> Cheap, scaleable and highly autonomous, these weapons are developing
> quickly ? and experts say they should prompt a global rethink about
> security.
> Daniel Boffey in Kyiv     Wed 25 Jun 2025
>
> The targets are not merely tanks, planes, railway hubs and critical
> infrastructure. The top priority is to kill people.
>
> ?There will be cheaper autonomous systems which can target infantry at
> a smaller scale because this is a key target, because the doctrine of
> war has changed, heavy equipment is used less and less,? Fedorov says.
> ---------------------
>
> (And I guess that civilian forces and terrorists will also love these cheap
> selective kill devices).
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 18:53:57 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 12:53:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Quantitative Qualia and the Science of
 Redness
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvob7BacaQqs19fw7J8o7RpU13A4CNBQz3+qL27m_vEag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fe0026617a15416bc12866444518c111@sollegro.com>
 <CAK7-onvob7BacaQqs19fw7J8o7RpU13A4CNBQz3+qL27m_vEag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCf3t-t2d5V_3YjwTeF2pFeqGKKst0adwWzTuUnUiLLAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Brent,

  In the vast world of knowledge sucked up by the AIs, there are very
specific mappings of colors to numeric equivalents that would enable AI to
"know" or "infer" what colors are despite having no eyes. Just think of the
color swatches at your local Home Depot. There are undoubtedly
international definitions (ANSI?) of colors, along with many other
standards. So I don't think this falls into your standard "qualia" argument
in the same way as "anger" or something a bit less quantifiable like that.

-Kelly


On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 5:34?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi Stuart,
> Yes, thanks for this reference.
> It just must be kept in mind, that though an abstract intelligence (words
> only) can discover and model color qualities, without a definition of the
> words being grounded with factual physical qualities it experiences first
> hand, they can't know what the words represent.
>
> [image: The-Strawberry-is-Red-0480-0310.jpg]
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 11:16?AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Here is an interesting study that reports using machine learning
>> techniques to analyze color qualia quantitatively. Basically they had
>> 426 people with typical color vision and 257 individuals who were color
>> blind take a computer survey where they judged the similarity of
>> color-pairs chosen randomly from a pool of 93 colors using a point
>> scale. The results were then used to train an artificial neural network
>> (ANN) by unsupervised pairwise alignment of individual's similarity data
>> for the color pairs without reference to the color name or label. In
>> other word, it was told to look for similarities based on the numerical
>> distance reported by each pair of individuals for each color pair,
>> without being told what the colors were and then used the alignments to
>> form clusters corresponding to a "color map". When the relative
>> differences between colors reported by the research subjects were
>> clustered without reference to the color, it nonetheless turned out that
>> clusters corresponded to the various color labels and the color maps of
>> the normally-sighted group were similar to one another. The color maps
>> of the color-blind people were, also, similar to one another. However,
>> the color maps of the color-sighted people were different from the color
>> maps of the color-blind people.
>>
>> https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00289-5
>>
>>
>> https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/LYgJrBf6awsqFRCt3/is-red-for-gpt-4-the-same-as-red-for-you
>>
>> Using machine learning to analyze qualia like this is fascinating. Just
>> like an LLM can learn the contextual meaning of words without being
>> explicitly programmed with the definition of the words simply by
>> statistically analyzing the average numerical distances between words in
>> a corpus of text, this technique should allow AI to recognize and use
>> colors without being explicitly programmed with any particular
>> definition of say red. This would render the question of whether an AI
>> can truly see a color to be equivalent to whether an LLM actually
>> understands what it is saying.
>>
>> Brent, you have have a thing for both color qualia and surveys so this
>> paper should be right up your alley.
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/fe0026617a15416bc12866444518c111%40sollegro.com
>> .
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 14 19:20:21 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 12:20:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The biggest black hole merger ever detected so far rocked
 the Universe
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnC8U9woe_j1ksfgKntiJBAp3pG6Q-GBN9D6wJdpHwf5xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj28MGF89cLMGqMhnW94NoOjJWZJY-Ovqr+4h673m4+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002e01dbf4dd$688e5630$39ab0290$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnC8U9woe_j1ksfgKntiJBAp3pG6Q-GBN9D6wJdpHwf5xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007501dbf4f4$57e785b0$07b69110$@rainier66.com>










> ...strains my imagination trying to figure out how those monsters would 
> form, never mind how they would get close enough together to dissipate 
> all that angular momentum and merge.
>
> Well somehow they did.  There's still plenty we just don't understand 
> about the origin of the universe.  Rather there is plenty that I don't understand.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________




-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson ...

>...One likely way two massive black holes could merge is when galaxies collide. Most galaxies have a massive black hole at their center. So I wonder if the black hole at the center of Andromeda is expected to merge with the Milky Way's black hole when the two galaxies collide here in a few billion years?

-Kelly




Kelly the black holes that form at the centers of galaxies are millions of solar masses, not hundreds.  Even if it is two black holes that formed in separate galaxies, it is still quite mysterious how all that angular momentum was dissipated to allow for a merger.  If two hundred-some black holes somehow formed when initially at rest with each other, they would pass by each other with such enormous velocity they would be most unlikely to form an orbit which could somehow burn off all that momentum in space-time distortion.  Our current models don't explain it.

spike





From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 21:16:55 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 17:16:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Time travel brainscans
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQP-+2GT5ozcuwH9rEVD_061yciAPrywMZ0Uu+tuasFuQ@mail.gmail.com>

A thought experiment:

Assume that, some centuries in the future, time travel is invented but
it is the "you already did that" type: anything that future people do
in the past, was already done in the past.  They can for instance
record information that would have (appeared) lost, but for instance,
no assassinating Hitler before history recorded his suicide.

So, they get to brainscanning every human who has been alive, just
before their death, with an eye toward resurrection.  They have some
cutoff for what counts - e.g., any embryo that does not make it to
sustained survival outside of/independent from the womb likely
wouldn't be scanned, and the cutoff might be somewhat later.  Homo
sapiens only; the exact boundary depends on historical snapshots they
take to determine the exact path by which the species arose.  There
might be some cases that are beyond their initial capability; these
get flagged for later.

Some current estimates of how many humans have ever lived come in a
bit over 100 billion.  Let us assume it is no more than 150 billion -
not counting those then alive, who can be scanned without time travel
- by the time of this project.  If they can achieve an average pace of
100 scans per worker per day - 4.8 minutes per scan on average - and
assuming 250 working days per year, a workforce of a million (not
counting oversight/coordination and other support personnel, but
likely less than 1.1 million including them) could get this done in 6
years, likely a little longer due to inefficiencies and time to hunt
down hard-to-find cases.

This would be well within the scope of large human projects.  A
workforce that large would almost certainly divide up by interest -
these people focus on the ancient Roman era, that group takes on North
and South America up to somewhere around first European contact (aside
from the Vikings) - so long as overlaps are sorted and unaddressed
areas taken care of eventually (likely toward the end of the project).
Actual resurrection might be handled by another group, perhaps in
batches including orientation of historical people to then-modern
society.

This might explain the phenomena sometimes reported, of near-death
people experiencing going through a tunnel only to perceive some
consciousness saying it is not their time and sending them back to
life.  Or it could be just random musing, of no more impact on reality
than the particulars of a typical dream.

From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Jul 14 21:54:58 2025
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 17:54:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Time travel brainscans
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQP-+2GT5ozcuwH9rEVD_061yciAPrywMZ0Uu+tuasFuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQP-+2GT5ozcuwH9rEVD_061yciAPrywMZ0Uu+tuasFuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b3445d6bee722f85f3a79f732f88c9d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

:)  You should write a book, it sounds like a good story!  Go for it. I'd
be happy to read such a tale.

Regards,
MB



On Mon, July 14, 2025 17:16, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> A thought experiment:
>
> Assume that, some centuries in the future, time travel is invented but
> it is the "you already did that" type: anything that future people do
> in the past, was already done in the past.  They can for instance
> record information that would have (appeared) lost, but for instance,
> no assassinating Hitler before history recorded his suicide.
>
> So, they get to brainscanning every human who has been alive, just
> before their death, with an eye toward resurrection.  They have some
> cutoff for what counts - e.g., any embryo that does not make it to
> sustained survival outside of/independent from the womb likely
> wouldn't be scanned, and the cutoff might be somewhat later.  Homo
> sapiens only; the exact boundary depends on historical snapshots they
> take to determine the exact path by which the species arose.  There
> might be some cases that are beyond their initial capability; these
> get flagged for later.
>
> Some current estimates of how many humans have ever lived come in a
> bit over 100 billion.  Let us assume it is no more than 150 billion -
> not counting those then alive, who can be scanned without time travel
> - by the time of this project.  If they can achieve an average pace of
> 100 scans per worker per day - 4.8 minutes per scan on average - and
> assuming 250 working days per year, a workforce of a million (not
> counting oversight/coordination and other support personnel, but
> likely less than 1.1 million including them) could get this done in 6
> years, likely a little longer due to inefficiencies and time to hunt
> down hard-to-find cases.
>
> This would be well within the scope of large human projects.  A
> workforce that large would almost certainly divide up by interest -
> these people focus on the ancient Roman era, that group takes on North
> and South America up to somewhere around first European contact (aside
> from the Vikings) - so long as overlaps are sorted and unaddressed
> areas taken care of eventually (likely toward the end of the project).
> Actual resurrection might be handled by another group, perhaps in
> batches including orientation of historical people to then-modern
> society.
>
> This might explain the phenomena sometimes reported, of near-death
> people experiencing going through a tunnel only to perceive some
> consciousness saying it is not their time and sending them back to
> life.  Or it could be just random musing, of no more impact on reality
> than the particulars of a typical dream.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 22:37:35 2025
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 18:37:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Time travel brainscans
In-Reply-To: <9b3445d6bee722f85f3a79f732f88c9d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CALAdGNQP-+2GT5ozcuwH9rEVD_061yciAPrywMZ0Uu+tuasFuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9b3445d6bee722f85f3a79f732f88c9d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR40=6_i67YyVJj2qYAheOTNhNx=o_CNvKfpNnWgHTEMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 5:57?PM MB via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> You should write a book,

Eh.  My mother and brother did that for a living, so I know the
process well enough.  (Main initial step: unless you can effectively
market the book yourself - I know that I can't - find a publisher who
publishes things like what you want to write, and pitch them on an
idea.  If they shoot it down, revise your idea per their feedback - if
possible, but it often isn't - or find another publisher.  Repeat
until the publisher has agreed with your specific pitch.)  I've got
author or co-author credit on a few books, the exact number depending
on what you count (as noted below: some of it's because of short
pieces I contributed).

Most of my energy these days goes to more technical efforts.

> it sounds like a good story!  Go for it. I'd
> be happy to read such a tale.

Oh, I have written a lot of fiction over the years - most of it short
stories, much of it under pseudonym.

But I wrote down this particular idea and posted it here, with the
sense that some on this list might riff on it. ;)


From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 15 00:34:15 2025
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:34:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbL4NZUPQw9pUFjpZ=w4_ZyTidv1AfxU0iQNbOZKk0cWBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 12:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> So that would create an adaptive me-bot, which is the real me in a sense,
> for we are all adaptive intelligences: we talk differently to our neighbor
> from how we talk to our family members, our online contacts, etc.  If I was
> posting to a motorcycle buddy and went off on some of the stuff we discuss
> here, he would be certain I had completely lost my mind.  So? an adaptive
> me-bot is a possible solution.
>
You do appreciate that you just shared cross-domain awareness with us.  You
are not the authentic spike-bot.

Tbh, you have previously crafted uncertainty about authorship of posts
associated with this email address for the sake of plausible deniability.
Surely the real spike cares as much about implausible deniability and also
plausible undeniability.

Sorry, you-bot has more training to do
??

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul 15 03:17:56 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:17:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbL4NZUPQw9pUFjpZ=w4_ZyTidv1AfxU0iQNbOZKk0cWBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbL4NZUPQw9pUFjpZ=w4_ZyTidv1AfxU0iQNbOZKk0cWBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401dbf537$0fc840b0$2f58c210$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 14 July, 2025 5:34 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions

 

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 12:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

So that would create an adaptive me-bot, which is the real me in a sense, for we are all adaptive intelligences: we talk differently to our neighbor from how we talk to our family members, our online contacts, etc.  If I was posting to a motorcycle buddy and went off on some of the stuff we discuss here, he would be certain I had completely lost my mind.  So? an adaptive me-bot is a possible solution.

You do appreciate that you just shared cross-domain awareness with us.  You are not the authentic spike-bot.

 

Tbh, you have previously crafted uncertainty about authorship of posts associated with this email address for the sake of plausible deniability.  Surely the real spike cares as much about implausible deniability and also plausible undeniability.

 

Sorry, you-bot has more training to do

??

 

 

 

Ah fond memories.  We had a local ExtroCon, I had a buncha fellers over to my house, we had a blast, getting on each others? accounts and trying to impersonate the other feller.

 

Anders Sandberg, Mike Lorrey, Greg Burch, two others camped at my house, so we were really having fun doing that foolishness.  I laughed so hard that weekend I was in pain.  I had sixpack abs afterwards.  Or perhaps those were my ribs but we had a blast.

 

I do recall that about 30 guys came over, brought about 700 bucks worth of beer each, then no one was drinking much of it.  My refrigerator groaned under the load.  It was cooling under the influence.

 

Thanks for reminding me of that Mike.  I think that was in 1999.  Mike did you make the scene?

 

spike

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Tue Jul 15 15:01:53 2025
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 09:01:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
In-Reply-To: <004401dbf537$0fc840b0$2f58c210$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhhcsoCxhJkmVyYySz4XkNHNiUQockrCVtTkgFJ_1VXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001dbeb8c$0b1361d0$213a2570$@rainier66.com>
 <002f01dbf4df$049612b0$0dc23810$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbL4NZUPQw9pUFjpZ=w4_ZyTidv1AfxU0iQNbOZKk0cWBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401dbf537$0fc840b0$2f58c210$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDnaDLeSOaK4pWcn77nDgzKyo+se5nppRY13VO3+E+Tsw@mail.gmail.com>

Some day, when all of us have shuffled off the mortal coil, uploaded
or not, I fully anticipate this email list will continue on without
us. Just all our bots talking happily to each other until the last
ounce of energy is gone from the local universe. Entropy will finally
end this list, but likely we as individuals will have been long gone.

-Kelly

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 9:18?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
> Sent: Monday, 14 July, 2025 5:34 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Speaking with deceased companions
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 12:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> So that would create an adaptive me-bot, which is the real me in a sense, for we are all adaptive intelligences: we talk differently to our neighbor from how we talk to our family members, our online contacts, etc.  If I was posting to a motorcycle buddy and went off on some of the stuff we discuss here, he would be certain I had completely lost my mind.  So? an adaptive me-bot is a possible solution.
>
> You do appreciate that you just shared cross-domain awareness with us.  You are not the authentic spike-bot.
>
>
>
> Tbh, you have previously crafted uncertainty about authorship of posts associated with this email address for the sake of plausible deniability.  Surely the real spike cares as much about implausible deniability and also plausible undeniability.
>
>
>
> Sorry, you-bot has more training to do
>
> ??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ah fond memories.  We had a local ExtroCon, I had a buncha fellers over to my house, we had a blast, getting on each others? accounts and trying to impersonate the other feller.
>
>
>
> Anders Sandberg, Mike Lorrey, Greg Burch, two others camped at my house, so we were really having fun doing that foolishness.  I laughed so hard that weekend I was in pain.  I had sixpack abs afterwards.  Or perhaps those were my ribs but we had a blast.
>
>
>
> I do recall that about 30 guys came over, brought about 700 bucks worth of beer each, then no one was drinking much of it.  My refrigerator groaned under the load.  It was cooling under the influence.
>
>
>
> Thanks for reminding me of that Mike.  I think that was in 1999.  Mike did you make the scene?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 16 04:45:28 2025
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 21:45:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NASA Deflects Asteroid
Message-ID: <adc8aff4da2aba6083f9177bb29298fb@sollegro.com>

In September 2022, NASA's DART (Double Asteroid Redirection Test) 
spacecraft ejected a smaller sensor drone spacecraft before crashing 
headlong into Dimorphos, the small 160 m satellite of a larger 780 m NEO 
named Didymous. The mission was a test to see if we could use a 
spacecraft impact to deflect the trajectory of an oncoming asteroid for 
obvious reasons.

The mission succeeded in changing the orbit of Dimorphos around its 
primary Didymous by shortening its orbital period by 22 min, however in 
the process several boulders were dislodged that had three times the 
momentum of the spacecraft, thus changing the orbit in an unpredicted 
fashion.

Still seems like progress to me. Here is the complete story from 
University of Maryland:

https://cmns.umd.edu/news-events/news/massive-boulders-ejected-during-dart-mission-complicate-future-asteroid-deflection

Here is a link to the footage from the camera craft that got ejected 
prior to impact. The footage starts after the impact so in the beginning 
the target Dimorphos is hidden from view by the bright starburst pattern 
of ejecta. The large bright object to the right is the larger asteroid 
Didymous.

https://04533034747756402167.googlegroups.com/attach/3526c3d9b8c0/Dart_Mission.mp4?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGH6Ij9hkE4Gu30Svb94VlWxJ7cw0KGVP3TL6LKj6vLuaSSOcunEPoEoNV7EM9__YLZwhNms0iL3WAfobWRIMcG2jKRmMcwMJWDb3NG88zNPuW2Ns0

Google also made a cute easter-egg that happens if you search for "DART 
mission".

Stuart LaForge


From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Wed Jul 16 09:07:02 2025
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 02:07:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NASA Deflects Asteroid
In-Reply-To: <adc8aff4da2aba6083f9177bb29298fb@sollegro.com>
References: <adc8aff4da2aba6083f9177bb29298fb@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpHL72u3fpb9jtKHmr=zsBSzy=L2ceLDakAyxOwyv=iDsw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank You, what fun! 59+ years ago in northern New Jersey mensa meeting
early chatting about what you participated in materializing, Happened! It's
Awesome

I Love Long Life, smile
ilsa bartlett

Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com
http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett
www.hotlux.com/angel <http://www.hotlux.com/angel.htm>

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane

On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 9:46?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In September 2022, NASA's DART (Double Asteroid Redirection Test)
> spacecraft ejected a smaller sensor drone spacecraft before crashing
> headlong into Dimorphos, the small 160 m satellite of a larger 780 m NEO
> named Didymous. The mission was a test to see if we could use a
> spacecraft impact to deflect the trajectory of an oncoming asteroid for
> obvious reasons.
>
> The mission succeeded in changing the orbit of Dimorphos around its
> primary Didymous by shortening its orbital period by 22 min, however in
> the process several boulders were dislodged that had three times the
> momentum of the spacecraft, thus changing the orbit in an unpredicted
> fashion.
>
> Still seems like progress to me. Here is the complete story from
> University of Maryland:
>
>
> https://cmns.umd.edu/news-events/news/massive-boulders-ejected-during-dart-mission-complicate-future-asteroid-deflection
>
> Here is a link to the footage from the camera craft that got ejected
> prior to impact. The footage starts after the impact so in the beginning
> the target Dimorphos is hidden from view by the bright starburst pattern
> of ejecta. The large bright object to the right is the larger asteroid
> Didymous.
>
>
> https://04533034747756402167.googlegroups.com/attach/3526c3d9b8c0/Dart_Mission.mp4?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGH6Ij9hkE4Gu30Svb94VlWxJ7cw0KGVP3TL6LKj6vLuaSSOcunEPoEoNV7EM9__YLZwhNms0iL3WAfobWRIMcG2jKRmMcwMJWDb3NG88zNPuW2Ns0
>
> Google also made a cute easter-egg that happens if you search for "DART
> mission".
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 09:11:00 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 10:11:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Major Antimatter Discovery May Help Solve Mystery of Existence
Message-ID: <CAL_armhoP-CaHcmFnGk6WLoy60U7h72qiMBA=qWgtmvB7Sog+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Breaking: Major Antimatter Discovery May Help Solve Mystery of Existence
17 July 2025   By Michael Irving

<https://www.sciencealert.com/breaking-major-antimatter-discovery-may-help-solve-mystery-of-existence>
Quote:
In theory, the Big Bang shouldn't have favored one over the other,
creating both matter and antimatter in equal amounts. And if that was
the case, the entire contents of the Universe should have blasted
itself into oblivion in the first few moments of existence, leaving
the cosmos a profoundly empty place.

Since that obviously didn't happen, it seems some unknown factor
intervened so that slightly more matter was created than antimatter.
Everything that exists today ? from galaxies to grains of sand ? are
made of that tiny fraction that survived early annihilation.

Known as a charge-parity (CP) violation, the effect has only
previously been detected in another class of particles, called mesons.
But experimental evidence in baryons, which make up the bulk of the
Universe's matter, is something physicists have been long hunting for.

"It shows that the subtle differences between matter and antimatter
exist in a wider range of particles, indicating that the fundamental
laws of physics treat baryons and antibaryons differently," Xueting
Yang, CERN physicist and first author of the study, told ScienceAlert.
----------------

BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Jul 18 07:03:42 2025
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 00:03:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
 <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
Message-ID: <d63626fdcd09965bd9e1905fbfee6559@sollegro.com>

On 2025-07-10 09:59, scerir via extropy-chat wrote:
>> Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  
>> Under
>> sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are 
>> pushed
>> into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, 
>> huge ball
>> of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it 
>> crushes
>> the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our 
>> equations
>> fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it 
>> is.
>> The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
>> 
>> spike
> 
> Quark stars are possible.
> 
> But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting 
> uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau 
> is proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical 
> quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle 
> rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses 
> the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading 
> an imaginary clock situated on the particle.
> 
> Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.

Very interesting. Thanks for bringing Daniel Greenberger to my 
attention. The GHZ experiment absolutely destroys local realism without 
any of the statistical loopholes of Bell inequality. I am trying to wrap 
my head around the notion of there being wave functions and operators 
for mass and proper time. Most notably because both rest mass and proper 
time are Lorentz invariant so they are generally thought of as intrinsic 
properties of a particle instead of dynamic variable that depends on 
"when and where" you observe it.

Stuart LaForge

From scerir at libero.it  Fri Jul 18 09:11:07 2025
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 11:11:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <d63626fdcd09965bd9e1905fbfee6559@sollegro.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
 <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
 <d63626fdcd09965bd9e1905fbfee6559@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <782732129.2899298.1752829867287@mail1.libero.it>


Hi Stuart

There are papers online, https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.3709 , but imo the best paper is D. M. Greenberger, contribution to Experimental Metaphysics (a Festschrift for A. Shimony), R. S. Cohen, et al (eds.), Kluwer Academic, Dordrecht, Netherlands, 1997



> Il 18/07/2025 09:03 CEST Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> ha scritto:
> 
>  
> On 2025-07-10 09:59, scerir via extropy-chat wrote:
> >> Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  
> >> Under
> >> sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are 
> >> pushed
> >> into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, 
> >> huge ball
> >> of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it 
> >> crushes
> >> the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our 
> >> equations
> >> fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it 
> >> is.
> >> The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
> >> 
> >> spike
> > 
> > Quark stars are possible.
> > 
> > But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting 
> > uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau 
> > is proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical 
> > quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle 
> > rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses 
> > the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading 
> > an imaginary clock situated on the particle.
> > 
> > Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.
> 
> Very interesting. Thanks for bringing Daniel Greenberger to my 
> attention. The GHZ experiment absolutely destroys local realism without 
> any of the statistical loopholes of Bell inequality. I am trying to wrap 
> my head around the notion of there being wave functions and operators 
> for mass and proper time. Most notably because both rest mass and proper 
> time are Lorentz invariant so they are generally thought of as intrinsic 
> properties of a particle instead of dynamic variable that depends on 
> "when and where" you observe it.
> 
> Stuart LaForge

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 12:08:46 2025
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 08:08:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Big Black Hole Question
In-Reply-To: <d63626fdcd09965bd9e1905fbfee6559@sollegro.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjHz6XjMxfZE4CHdE4EqK5SPP4KOYkgwDg_9WESAA=mGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj4qnpeHOLmYWMLTJ-f7TOs7vv_to9X+O71mHhPRjR5Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg+n9sA0qAioAwGza9wQnNxOnvsRwEgJimc80jHAyLgXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgan4KTL2SnV1K8AUjiNcbMFS_kYp--Sp8Xy_4cRf8mSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000b01dbf1b0$98da8f00$ca8fad00$@rainier66.com>
 <1496218478.2036607.1752166797377@mail1.libero.it>
 <d63626fdcd09965bd9e1905fbfee6559@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUgDypwxecmQ3fhtq9McuFXHwpG3j+hnQBzhbN=sLP590Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2025, 3:04 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2025-07-10 09:59, scerir via extropy-chat wrote:
> >> Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.
> >> Under
> >> sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are
> >> pushed
> >> into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result,
> >> huge ball
> >> of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it
> >> crushes
> >> the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our
> >> equations
> >> fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it
> >> is.
> >> The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
> >>
> >> spike
> >
> > Quark stars are possible.
> >
> > But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting
> > uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau
> > is proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical
> > quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle
> > rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses
> > the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading
> > an imaginary clock situated on the particle.
> >
> > Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.
>
> Very interesting. Thanks for bringing Daniel Greenberger to my
> attention. The GHZ experiment absolutely destroys local realism without
> any of the statistical loopholes of Bell inequality. I am trying to wrap
> my head around the notion of there being wave functions and operators
> for mass and proper time. Most notably because both rest mass and proper
> time are Lorentz invariant so they are generally thought of as intrinsic
> properties of a particle instead of dynamic variable that depends on
> "when and where" you observe it.
>


Under the Euclidean view of Special Relativity (e.g., as described in
Relativity Visualized
https://archive.org/details/L.EpsteinRelativityVisualizedelemTxt1994Insight
), the proper velocity of anything is always the speed of light. When
something appears to be at rest, it is travelling through time at the speed
of light.

This view is completely compatible with Einstein's Relativity, it is just a
change of coordinate systems.

But a clear outcome of this, to me, is it tightly links position with time.
If a particle can truly be measured to be any location, any distance away
(with some probability) from it's previously measured location, then it's
arbitrary spacial displacement must equally reflect in its arbitrary time
displacement.

Jason
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 16:05:14 2025
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 17:05:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
Message-ID: <CAL_armimfn7-3MKR2=u6tKXa2E9JeXjrVeOWv-SyzD+OR7pFgA@mail.gmail.com>

Friends don?t let friends make friends with AI
Virtual girlfriends and AI friends represent a toxic trend that Elon
Musk is happy to exploit.
Mike Elgan   Jul 18, 1985

<https://machinesociety.ai/p/friends-dont-let-friends-make-friends>
Quotes:
The trouble with fake people
The problem of emotional attachments to software is most pronounced
among the young. Some teenagers prefer fake AI friends to real ones.

The social crisis
Since the Covid lockdowns and school closures, many have struggled to
maintain social lives. The rise of AI chatbots and ?virtual
girlfriend? apps has replaced social interaction and real
relationships. Introverts with social anxiety are offered an addictive
?relationship? with nobody, instead of being motivated by a craving
for connection to go out, take risks, and meet people.

Young men in particular have flocked to these apps. About 28% of men
aged 18 to 34 have tried a virtual girlfriend app or chatbot at least
once, and over half of those users chat with their AI partners daily,
spending around $47 a month to unlock virtual gifts and premium
features.

You read that right. The fake girlfriend app companies? business model
is to confuse users into thinking AI has feelings and emotions, which
they use to manipulate customers into buying non-existent gifts for
non-existent people.
------------------

AI friends are designed to be addictive. The Adverts economy demands
more clicks and more time spent on websites.
This is the new world for the new generation that grew up with it.
BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul 18 18:38:39 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 11:38:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armimfn7-3MKR2=u6tKXa2E9JeXjrVeOWv-SyzD+OR7pFgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armimfn7-3MKR2=u6tKXa2E9JeXjrVeOWv-SyzD+OR7pFgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701dbf813$2e7afa00$8b70ee00$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society

>...Friends don?t let friends make friends with AI Virtual girlfriends and AI friends represent a toxic trend that Elon Musk is happy to exploit.
Mike Elgan   Jul 18, 1985

Easy solution: get multiple AI virtual friends, your home-boys, and urge them to not let you get with this AI Virtual girlfriend, who they know is toxic.

Eventually the toxic AI girlfriend will find out they are interfering, and will fight them directly, at which time the human can step outta the loop.

>...
------------------

>...AI friends are designed to be addictive. The Adverts economy demands more clicks and more time spent on websites.
This is the new world for the new generation that grew up with it.
BillK

_______________________________________________



Of course a bunch of guys will go the AI route.  AI is much simpler than the actual bio-units.

And all along we thought it was going to be the bomb or a virus.

spike




From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 19:39:06 2025
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 13:39:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
In-Reply-To: <007701dbf813$2e7afa00$8b70ee00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armimfn7-3MKR2=u6tKXa2E9JeXjrVeOWv-SyzD+OR7pFgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701dbf813$2e7afa00$8b70ee00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsUF_UmhmrWGGSm=PMG8VT1rrmMou32_bEEKg9GQmeNEw@mail.gmail.com>

I just want to know where the AI girlfriend is that will help me fight all
the spammers that are constantly attempting to attack me.

I once loved scam baiting people, thinking it would do some good, but now
it is just all AIs.  I get calls, emails, texts....  many times a day, from
entities claiming to be from coinbase.com, gmail.com, robinhood.... people
claiming someone is trying to take over my account using various methods.
Some of them are quite convincing, and they know everything about me and my
accounts.  It is frustrating, because I did get one legitimate email from
one exchange that I needed to address.  So it is very time consuming to
know the difference and not miss the valid notifications.

I can't wait till police authorities can have powerful enough AI
girlfriends to track all of this kind of stuff and shut it all down, put
them in jail, or even better, reverse scams them, DOS or whatever if they
are someplace like North Korea) when anyone attempts this.







On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 12:39?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
>
> >...Friends don?t let friends make friends with AI Virtual girlfriends and
> AI friends represent a toxic trend that Elon Musk is happy to exploit.
> Mike Elgan   Jul 18, 1985
>
> Easy solution: get multiple AI virtual friends, your home-boys, and urge
> them to not let you get with this AI Virtual girlfriend, who they know is
> toxic.
>
> Eventually the toxic AI girlfriend will find out they are interfering, and
> will fight them directly, at which time the human can step outta the loop.
>
> >...
> ------------------
>
> >...AI friends are designed to be addictive. The Adverts economy demands
> more clicks and more time spent on websites.
> This is the new world for the new generation that grew up with it.
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Of course a bunch of guys will go the AI route.  AI is much simpler than
> the actual bio-units.
>
> And all along we thought it was going to be the bomb or a virus.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Jul 18 20:19:55 2025
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 21:19:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
In-Reply-To: <mailman.55.1752854769.4814.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.55.1752854769.4814.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4d09b483-314c-4b92-b10f-d6da5b554c43@zaiboc.net>

On 18/07/2025 17:06, BillK quoted:
> The rise of AI chatbots and ?virtual
> girlfriend? apps has replaced social interaction and real
> relationships. Introverts with social anxiety are offered an addictive
> ?relationship? with nobody, instead of being motivated by a craving
> for connection to go out, take risks, and meet people.

I think that anyone with 'a craving for connection to go out, take 
risks, and meet people' can hardly be described as an introvert with 
social anxiety!

A lot of people seem to write about introverts without having a clue 
what introversion actually is.

-- 
Ben


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul 18 22:16:04 2025
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 15:16:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
In-Reply-To: <4d09b483-314c-4b92-b10f-d6da5b554c43@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.55.1752854769.4814.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <4d09b483-314c-4b92-b10f-d6da5b554c43@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <00fe01dbf831$8dfa7910$a9ef6b30$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2025 1:20 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net>
Subject: Re: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society

On 18/07/2025 17:06, BillK quoted:
>>... The rise of AI chatbots and ?virtual
> girlfriend? apps has replaced social interaction and real 
> relationships. Introverts with social anxiety are offered an addictive 
> ?relationship? with nobody, instead of being motivated by a craving 
> for connection to go out, take risks, and meet people.

>...I think that anyone with 'a craving for connection to go out, take risks, and meet people' can hardly be described as an introvert with social anxiety!

A lot of people seem to write about introverts without having a clue what introversion actually is.

--
Ben

_______________________________________________



Ben we need an international introversion competition.  The introversion Olympics.  I bet I can out-introvert anyone here!

The internet has been such a blessing for us introverts.  We can be as social as we want here, and no one can really tell how socially awkward we are.  Here we don't even know if we commit a grave faux pas.  

But other than that, here isn't much like real life.  The real world is for social butterflies.  But what about us lonely social horseflies.  And our friends, the social cockroaches?  We should have a place too, other than our parents' basements I mean.

Note, I never inhabited such a place.  I woulda but my parents couldn't afford a basement.

The online world is great!  Nerds RULE here!  What a gift.  Before the internet, the jocks, the rich, the beautiful, the popular ran everything.  Now we hire them to do things for us, if we need something, such as someone to mow and trim, while we cheerfully rule the world.  Well... cheerfully rule the world right up until AI takes over and destroys humanity.  But until then, it will be lotsa fun.

Everybody think of events we could have for the Introvert Olympics.  The shyathon?  The 1000 meter flee from all human contact?  Speed-typing?

spike





From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 03:04:44 2025
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 21:04:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
In-Reply-To: <00fe01dbf831$8dfa7910$a9ef6b30$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.55.1752854769.4814.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <4d09b483-314c-4b92-b10f-d6da5b554c43@zaiboc.net>
 <00fe01dbf831$8dfa7910$a9ef6b30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsn2ubu=c=gooHxV3MQgHqmBG3D67fjGpH7NEUzdS5jaw@mail.gmail.com>

lol, I agree and I bet I could blow you away in introvesionness! ;)

How about how many friends do you have?  (i.e. you talk to them at least
once a week, not counting family, church or work friends)

When was the last time you ate out with someone other than your family?

.....





On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 4:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2025 1:20 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Cc: Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] AI "friends" are bad for people and society
>
> On 18/07/2025 17:06, BillK quoted:
> >>... The rise of AI chatbots and ?virtual
> > girlfriend? apps has replaced social interaction and real
> > relationships. Introverts with social anxiety are offered an addictive
> > ?relationship? with nobody, instead of being motivated by a craving
> > for connection to go out, take risks, and meet people.
>
> >...I think that anyone with 'a craving for connection to go out, take
> risks, and meet people' can hardly be described as an introvert with social
> anxiety!
>
> A lot of people seem to write about introverts without having a clue what
> introversion actually is.
>
> --
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Ben we need an international introversion competition.  The introversion
> Olympics.  I bet I can out-introvert anyone here!
>
> The internet has been such a blessing for us introverts.  We can be as
> social as we want here, and no one can really tell how socially awkward we
> are.  Here we don't even know if we commit a grave faux pas.
>
> But other than that, here isn't much like real life.  The real world is
> for social butterflies.  But what about us lonely social horseflies.  And
> our friends, the social cockroaches?  We should have a place too, other
> than our parents' basements I mean.
>
> Note, I never inhabited such a place.  I woulda but my parents couldn't
> afford a basement.
>
> The online world is great!  Nerds RULE here!  What a gift.  Before the
> internet, the jocks, the rich, the beautiful, the popular ran everything.
> Now we hire them to do things for us, if we need something, such as someone
> to mow and trim, while we cheerfully rule the world.  Well... cheerfully
> rule the world right up until AI takes over and destroys humanity.  But
> until then, it will be lotsa fun.
>
> Everybody think of events we could have for the Introvert Olympics.  The
> shyathon?  The 1000 meter flee from all human contact?  Speed-typing?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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