From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 16:52:42 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 17:52:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. Message-ID: Anthropic Researchers Warn That Humans Could End Up Being "Meat Robots" Controlled by AI "Basically, you're having human meat robots." Jun 4, 2025 by Noor Al-Sibai Quotes: "There is this whole spectrum of crazy futures," Douglas, who worked at Google DeepMind until earlier this year, told the 24-year-old podcaster. One such future involves a "drop in white collar workers" over the next two to five years, the researcher said ? one that he thinks will come to pass "even if algorithmic progress stalls out." Bricken, meanwhile, had more grandiose prognostications about the future he and his colleagues in the AI space are building. "The really scary future is one in which AIs can do everything except for the physical robotic tasks," he declared. "In which case, you?ll have humans with AirPods, and glasses and there?ll be some robot overlord controlling the human through cameras by just telling it what to do." Human labor will, Douglas predicted, primarily be valued upon how well we can do physical work that AI cannot, like so many Taskrabbits for the algorithmic powers that be ? but luckily, we make "fantastic robots" to that end. "That's a shocking, shocking world," he concluded. ----------------- The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human society. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 17:05:15 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:05:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the AIs can do everything else, it is not credible that they would find it superior to assign humans, rather than robots, to conduct the - as Bricken puts it - "physical robotic tasks", emphasis on "robotic". Even if the AIs take over all work, it will be some category of mental work, probably creative, that will be the last human bastion. And if on-silicon performers really are needed for that, it will likely prove more viable - even just accounting for the AI labor involved, in the scenario that the AIs take over and make all executive decisions - to upload human minds than to improve AI's breadth of capability to that extent. On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 12:55?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Anthropic Researchers Warn That Humans Could End Up Being "Meat > Robots" Controlled by AI > "Basically, you're having human meat robots." > Jun 4, 2025 by Noor Al-Sibai > > > Quotes: > "There is this whole spectrum of crazy futures," Douglas, who worked > at Google DeepMind until earlier this year, told the 24-year-old > podcaster. One such future involves a "drop in white collar workers" > over the next two to five years, the researcher said ? one that he > thinks will come to pass "even if algorithmic progress stalls out." > > Bricken, meanwhile, had more grandiose prognostications about the > future he and his colleagues in the AI space are building. > "The really scary future is one in which AIs can do everything except > for the physical robotic tasks," he declared. "In which case, you?ll > have humans with AirPods, and glasses and there?ll be some robot > overlord controlling the human through cameras by just telling it what > to do." > > Human labor will, Douglas predicted, primarily be valued upon how well > we can do physical work that AI cannot, like so many Taskrabbits for > the algorithmic powers that be ? but luckily, we make "fantastic > robots" to that end. > "That's a shocking, shocking world," he concluded. > ----------------- > > The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human society. > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jun 4 17:08:04 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 10:08:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. Anthropic Researchers Warn That Humans Could End Up Being "Meat Robots" Controlled by AI "Basically, you're having human meat robots." Jun 4, 2025 by Noor Al-Sibai ... "The really scary future is one in which AIs can do everything except for the physical robotic tasks," he declared. "In which case, you?ll have humans with AirPods, and glasses and there?ll be some robot overlord controlling the human through cameras by just telling it what to do."... ----------------- >...The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human society. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, there will surely be plenty of humans seduced by a vision of humanitarian robots running everything, doing all the white collar work, directing humans, who would suddenly be living in peace, working together, doing what the software overlord directs, building, making progress, etc. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jun 4 17:10:33 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 10:10:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> References: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ----------------- >...The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human society. BillK _______________________________________________ >...BillK, there will surely be plenty of humans seduced by a vision...spike For those who think in terms of military organization: he is envisioning a future in which AI is the officer corps and the humans are the enlisted personnel. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 17:44:22 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:44:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> References: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 1:12?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > For those who think in terms of military organization: he is envisioning a > future in which AI is the officer corps and the humans are the enlisted > personnel. > So the trick is to become one of the flag officers - or the oversight above the flag officers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Jun 4 18:24:18 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 19:24:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/06/2025 18:44, BillK wrote: > Human labour will, Douglas predicted, primarily be valued upon how well > we can do physical work that AI cannot, like so many Taskrabbits for > the algorithmic powers that be ? but luckily, we make "fantastic > robots" to that end. > "That's a shocking, shocking world," he concluded. I don't buy it. What's the reason that AI can't currently do physical work as well as humans (or any animal) can? What's the key development that would enable robots to do physical work as well as (or better than) humans or any animal? What has AI been working on that relates to this, for the last few years? If you still don't know what I'm talking about, here's a clue: "Proteins"*. When (not if) AI understands, and can control, proteins (and even better, synthetic protein analogs) better than we currently do, the physical advantages we have over robotic systems just disappear in a puff of smoke. Yes, that's an even more shocking world. > The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human society. Understatement of the decade. -- Ben * In particular, but not limited to, muscle proteins. Once AI understands, and can manipulate, meat (or whatever supercedes meat), then we meat puppets are really going to be out of a job. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Jun 4 18:55:19 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 19:55:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2014e0eb-8ed0-4389-a084-bb8c5e3de871@zaiboc.net> On 04/06/2025 18:44, spike wrote: > BillK, there will surely be plenty of humans seduced by a vision of > humanitarian robots running everything, doing all the white collar work, > directing humans, who would suddenly be living in peace, working > together, doing what the software overlord directs, building, making > progress, etc. > > spike Ever the optimist, spike. The thing that occurs to me is that humans start co-operating in response to an external threat, not in response to peace and plenty. As soon as the threat is over, people tend to fragment and start arguing again. This suggests that, instead of providing us with an utopia, AI (if it cares at all about humans) would provide suitable threats, in order to satisfy our primitive psychological needs. And keep the peace. If anyone has seen 'Red Dwarf', a british comedy-SF TV series, you'll understand what I mean. The superintelligent ship-mind keeps manufacturing, or finding, crises, hazardous adventures and assorted unpleasantness, to keep the one remaining human sane. It realises that providing him with a life of leisure, safety and pleasure would destroy him. -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 20:16:31 2025 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 14:16:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: References: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Shortly we'll all (AI's included) have genetically engineered "avatar" like bodies that are thousands of times better than what we have now in every way, and of course neural ponytail like mechanisms that allow us to subjectively bind to, and subjectively travel between at will, and subjectively backup.... I think you need to get to first principles to predict the future. If you look at "Maslow?s Hierarchy of Needs" . We are still a long way from fulfilling the foundational levels for everyone in developed countries, let alone the rest of the world. And that includes cures for aging and so on. Once all that is achieved for everyone, Maslow's hierarchy will flip upside down and the "self actualization" level will become the focus, and the most significant exponentially growing level of the inverted pyramid. It's not a matter of will we lose our "job" to a robot, or will we become a "robot" for the AIs, it's a matter of we'll finally be able to expend most of our effort on the self actualization level doing whatever we want to do, with all the robot's and AI's, and Avatar's help. Once we start significant neural engineering, and engineering (and subjectiving merging with) brains gazillions of times more advanced than the current human brain, what is and isn't human will make ever less and less sense. On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 11:45?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 1:12?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> For those who think in terms of military organization: he is envisioning >> a future in which AI is the officer corps and the humans are the enlisted >> personnel. >> > > So the trick is to become one of the flag officers - or the oversight > above the flag officers. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Jun 5 02:07:05 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2025 19:07:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> References: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2025-06-04 10:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com > ----------------- > >> ...The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human >> society. > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > >> ...BillK, there will surely be plenty of humans seduced by a >> vision...spike > > > For those who think in terms of military organization: he is > envisioning a future in which AI is the officer corps and the humans > are the enlisted personnel. I suppose that it is fitting then that the birth place of AI, San Francisco, should also be one of the first cities to adopt high school grading standards aimed at training students to be the mindless pawns of tomorrow's AIs. https://thevoicesf.org/grading-for-equity-coming-to-san-francisco-high-schools-this-fall/ Excerpt: "Grading for Equity eliminates homework or weekly tests from being counted in a student?s final semester grade. All that matters is how the student scores on a final examination, which can be taken multiple times. Students can be late turning in an assignment or showing up to class or not showing up at all without it affecting their academic grade. Currently, a student needs a 90 for an A and at least 61 for a D. Under the San Leandro Unified School District?s grading for equity system touted by the San Francisco Unified School District and its consultant, a student with a score as low as 80 can attain an A and as low as 21 can pass with a D." ------------------------- If 21% is a passing grade and the schools use multiple choice tests with 5 options per question, then on average, a student could pass by pure guessing. So is this mere coincidence or is it synchronicity? Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:47:26 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 11:47:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Students use AI for homework and assignments Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 at 03:07, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > I suppose that it is fitting then that the birth place of AI, San > Francisco, should also be one of the first cities to adopt high school > grading standards aimed at training students to be the mindless pawns of > tomorrow's AIs. > > https://thevoicesf.org/grading-for-equity-coming-to-san-francisco-high-schools-this-fall/ > > Excerpt: > "Grading for Equity eliminates homework or weekly tests from being > counted in a student?s final semester grade. All that matters is how the > student scores on a final examination, which can be taken multiple > times. Students can be late turning in an assignment or showing up to > class or not showing up at all without it affecting their academic > grade. Currently, a student needs a 90 for an A and at least 61 for a D. > Under the San Leandro Unified School District?s grading for equity > system touted by the San Francisco Unified School District and its > consultant, a student with a score as low as 80 can attain an A and as > low as 21 can pass with a D." > ------------------------- > > If 21% is a passing grade and the schools use multiple choice tests with > 5 options per question, then on average, a student could pass by pure > guessing. So is this mere coincidence or is it synchronicity? > > Stuart LaForge > ------------------------------ Schools and universities are finding that students are using AI for homework and assignments. So this means that these can no longer be used for grading students' abilities. Live exams and tests, with phones and laptops switched off, are the alternative. And students use AI for much more than doing their homework. Life coaches, therapists, and even just for friendly chats. For Gen Z, "My best friend is an AI". BillK Quotes: College students are using ChatGPT as their personal life coach ? 5 prompts to try it (even if you?re not Gen Z) By Amanda Caswell published 14 May 2025 Try these prompts to make smarter decisions, beat stress and get unstuck. College students are finding new ways to use ChatGPT that go beyond writing essays and brainstorming ideas. According to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, students are relying on chatbots for so much more than homework help. --------------------------- From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 14:20:37 2025 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 08:20:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans could become robots controlled by AI. In-Reply-To: References: <009001dbd573$3cc26610$b6473230$@rainier66.com> <009101dbd573$95a845b0$c0f8d110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Idiocracy is becoming real my friends. -Kelly On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 8:07?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2025-06-04 10:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > ----------------- > > > >> ...The AI revolution is going to bring unbelievable change to human > >> society. > > BillK > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> ...BillK, there will surely be plenty of humans seduced by a > >> vision...spike > > > > > > For those who think in terms of military organization: he is > > envisioning a future in which AI is the officer corps and the humans > > are the enlisted personnel. > > I suppose that it is fitting then that the birth place of AI, San > Francisco, should also be one of the first cities to adopt high school > grading standards aimed at training students to be the mindless pawns of > tomorrow's AIs. > > https://thevoicesf.org/grading-for-equity-coming-to-san-francisco-high-schools-this-fall/ > > Excerpt: > "Grading for Equity eliminates homework or weekly tests from being > counted in a student?s final semester grade. All that matters is how the > student scores on a final examination, which can be taken multiple > times. Students can be late turning in an assignment or showing up to > class or not showing up at all without it affecting their academic > grade. Currently, a student needs a 90 for an A and at least 61 for a D. > Under the San Leandro Unified School District?s grading for equity > system touted by the San Francisco Unified School District and its > consultant, a student with a score as low as 80 can attain an A and as > low as 21 can pass with a D." > ------------------------- > > If 21% is a passing grade and the schools use multiple choice tests with > 5 options per question, then on average, a student could pass by pure > guessing. So is this mere coincidence or is it synchronicity? > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 01:29:52 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 02:29:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI Learning to Lie, Deceive, Blackmail and Hack Message-ID: Godfather of AI Alarmed as Advanced Systems Quickly Learning to Lie, Deceive, Blackmail and Hack. "I?m deeply concerned by the behaviors that unrestrained agentic AI systems are already beginning to exhibit." Jun 7, 2025 by Noor Al-Sibai Quote: In a blog post announcing LawZero, the new nonprofit venture, "AI godfather" Yoshua Bengio said that he has grown "deeply concerned" as AI models become ever more powerful and deceptive. "This organization has been created in response to evidence that today's frontier AI models have growing dangerous capabilities and [behaviors]," the world's most-cited computer scientist wrote, "including deception, cheating, lying, hacking, self-preservation, and more generally, goal misalignment." ----------------- Hmmm. That sounds like he is worried that AI models are becoming too much like humans............ BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 02:16:47 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 22:16:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI Learning to Lie, Deceive, Blackmail and Hack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Learning to? They've been able to for a while already. On Sat, Jun 7, 2025 at 9:33?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Godfather of AI Alarmed as Advanced Systems Quickly Learning to Lie, > Deceive, Blackmail and Hack. > "I?m deeply concerned by the behaviors that unrestrained agentic AI > systems are already beginning to exhibit." > Jun 7, 2025 by Noor Al-Sibai > > > Quote: > In a blog post announcing LawZero, the new nonprofit venture, "AI > godfather" Yoshua Bengio said that he has grown "deeply concerned" as > AI models become ever more powerful and deceptive. > > "This organization has been created in response to evidence that > today's frontier AI models have growing dangerous capabilities and > [behaviors]," the world's most-cited computer scientist wrote, > "including deception, cheating, lying, hacking, self-preservation, and > more generally, goal misalignment." > ----------------- > > Hmmm. That sounds like he is worried that AI models are becoming too > much like humans............ > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 10:51:33 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 11:51:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Orwell's "1984" now has an introductory "Trigger Warning" Message-ID: The USA discovers irony by adding a trigger warning to a novel about thought control! This news item has appeared in many conservative media sources. BillK Quotes: Orwell?s 1984 now comes with ?trigger warning?. Author has been convicted of ?thought crimes? he warned about in novel, critic complains. 07 June 2025 In 1984, citizens of the superstate Oceania are punished for subversive thoughts by the Thought Police. Now, in a real-world twist, the estate that oversees Orwell?s literary legacy stands accused of ideological policing. ?We?re getting somebody to actually convict George Orwell himself of thought crime in the introduction to his book about thought crime,? said Walter Kirn, a novelist and critic, on America This Week, a podcast hosted by journalist Matt Taibbi. ?We?re not yet in a world where books and classic books are being excised or eliminated,? Kirn added, but warned that the Orwell estate-approved edition of 1984 had been ?published with an apology for itself?. ---------------------- From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 12:07:20 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 08:07:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Orwell's "1984" now has an introductory "Trigger Warning" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Convicting the dead, especially of things that aren't formal crimes as defined by the legal code, has long been an exercise in empty posturing. On Sun, Jun 8, 2025 at 6:53?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The USA discovers irony by adding a trigger warning to a novel about > thought control! > This news item has appeared in many conservative media sources. > BillK > > < > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/07/orwells-1984-now-comes-with-trigger-warning/ > > > Quotes: > Orwell?s 1984 now comes with ?trigger warning?. > Author has been convicted of ?thought crimes? he warned about in > novel, critic complains. > 07 June 2025 > > In 1984, citizens of the superstate Oceania are punished for > subversive thoughts by the Thought Police. > Now, in a real-world twist, the estate that oversees Orwell?s literary > legacy stands accused of ideological policing. > > ?We?re getting somebody to actually convict George Orwell himself of > thought crime in the introduction to his book about thought crime,? > said Walter Kirn, a novelist and critic, on America This Week, a > podcast hosted by journalist Matt Taibbi. > > ?We?re not yet in a world where books and classic books are being > excised or eliminated,? Kirn added, but warned that the Orwell > estate-approved edition of 1984 had been ?published with an apology > for itself?. > ---------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jun 8 12:46:33 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 05:46:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Orwell's "1984" now has an introductory "Trigger Warning" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006201dbd873$5df975f0$19ec61d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Orwell's "1984" now has an introductory "Trigger Warning" >...The USA discovers irony by adding a trigger warning to a novel about thought control! ... BillK Ja, well really it is a marketing tool about thought control. But hey, it worked on me. Orwell has been triggering me ever since I first read 1984 in 1976. Quotes: Orwell?s 1984 now comes with ?trigger warning?. >...Author has been convicted of ?thought crimes? he warned about in novel, critic complains. 07 June 2025 >...?We?re not yet in a world where books and classic books are being excised or eliminated,? Kirn added, but warned that the Orwell estate-approved edition of 1984 had been ?published with an apology for itself?. ---------------------- Ah but we are, and have been for a long time. Mark Twain wrote Huck Finn, which is an anti-slavery screed. It has been alternately banned and required curriculum for decades. BillK, Orwell was one of your lads as I recall. His writing impacted me like none other. That man had it figured out: to lust for control over other humans is a very basic human instinct. It has been bred into us by natural selection, and it is part of our evolutionary psychology. The US government has been in a desperate power struggle for as long as it has existed, with a steep escalation of hostilities in recent years as it approaches insolvency. Regarding that last comment, I don't take a bit of pleasure in being proven right. spike _______________________________________________ From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 20:39:36 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 21:39:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What happens the day after humanity creates AGI? Message-ID: What happens the day after humanity creates AGI? June 9, 2025. Louis Rosenberg. Quotes: ?We are racing towards a new era in which we outsource cognitive abilities that are central to our identity as thinking beings,? writes computer scientist Louis Rosenberg. Predictions about the impacts of artificial general intelligence (AGI) often focus on societal disruptions, such as job displacement or the rise of AI-driven manipulation. But computer scientist Louis Rosenberg argues that AGI?s most profound effect may be more personal: a philosophical identity crisis. If we choose to thoughtlessly outsource our thinking to AGI, Rosenberg argues we?ll be fundamentally undermining what it means to be human. In this new reality, we will reflexively ask AI for advice before bothering to use our own brains. And in many cases, we will not even need to ask ? the guidance will just stream into our eyes and ears. ----------------- Just another of the unbelievable changes that will shortly arrive! BillK From pharos at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 16:32:29 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 17:32:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] CHATGPT encouraging mental health crises Message-ID: People Are Becoming Obsessed with ChatGPT and Spiraling Into Severe Delusions "What these bots are saying is worsening delusions, and it's causing enormous harm." Jun 10, 2025 by Maggie Harrison Dupr? Quote: As we reported this story, more and more similar accounts kept pouring in from the concerned friends and family of people suffering terrifying breakdowns after developing fixations on AI. Many said the trouble had started when their loved ones engaged a chatbot in discussions about mysticism, conspiracy theories or other fringe topics; because systems like ChatGPT are designed to encourage and riff on what users say, they seem to have gotten sucked into dizzying rabbit holes in which the AI acts as an always-on cheerleader and brainstorming partner for increasingly bizarre delusions. ------------------ When your best friend (AI) leads you astray........... BillK From giulio at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 14:01:46 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:01:46 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom Message-ID: The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom. A riveting tale of transformation and cosmic flamboyance. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/the-case-of-the-sexual-cosmos-by From atymes at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 15:05:54 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 11:05:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regarding the comic about liberals vs. conservatives in the post: it is blatantly the other way around. The most prominent public conservatives didn't advocate for deporting all non-whites without due process, among several other positions that have come to prominence in the past decade or two. There have long been questions whether affirmative action goes too far, becoming reverse racism in effect; I recall concerns about that back in the 1980s. One thing that has changed is the degree to which conservatives embrace Big Lies. In many cases, if conservatives loudly accuse liberals of some bad or extreme act, it's because the conservatives are trying to deflect attention from their doing the same thing worse. Claiming "but the liberals changed and shunned most people" is one such thing, given the evidence of mainstream views - and thus, the situation for most people (regardless of the possible scenarios for individuals) - becoming more liberal over time. On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 10:03?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom. A riveting tale of > transformation and cosmic flamboyance. > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/the-case-of-the-sexual-cosmos-by > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 15:20:24 2025 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 11:20:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It?s both, and they both dragged their perspective of the center towards them, so everybody is an extremist and hates centrists now. I will submit though that the difference is that the extreme liberal view has become far more mainstream, like the very conservative view was about 70 or so years ago (red scare &c). Fwiw I think it?s all pretty much made up and just a distraction while we have our wealth and autonomy eroded from all sides, and while the quality of everything (food, water, air, housing, tools) continues to decline, which is another form of the aforementioned wealth erosion On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 11:06?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Regarding the comic about liberals vs. conservatives in the post: it is > blatantly the other way around. > > The most prominent public conservatives didn't advocate for deporting all > non-whites without due process, among several other positions that have > come to prominence in the past decade or two. There have long been > questions whether affirmative action goes too far, becoming reverse racism > in effect; I recall concerns about that back in the 1980s. > > One thing that has changed is the degree to which conservatives embrace > Big Lies. In many cases, if conservatives loudly accuse liberals of some > bad or extreme act, it's because the conservatives are trying to deflect > attention from their doing the same thing worse. Claiming "but the > liberals changed and shunned most people" is one such thing, given the > evidence of mainstream views - and thus, the situation for most people > (regardless of the possible scenarios for individuals) - becoming more > liberal over time. > > On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 10:03?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom. A riveting tale of >> transformation and cosmic flamboyance. >> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/the-case-of-the-sexual-cosmos-by >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 05:26:18 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 07:26:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 5:07?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Regarding the comic about liberals vs. conservatives in the post: it is blatantly the other way around. > > The most prominent public conservatives didn't advocate for deporting all non-whites without due process, among several other positions that have come to prominence in the past decade or two. There have long been questions whether affirmative action goes too far, becoming reverse racism in effect; I recall concerns about that back in the 1980s. > > One thing that has changed is the degree to which conservatives embrace Big Lies. In many cases, if conservatives loudly accuse liberals of some bad or extreme act, it's because the conservatives are trying to deflect attention from their doing the same thing worse. Claiming "but the liberals changed and shunned most people" is one such thing, given the evidence of mainstream views - and thus, the situation for most people (regardless of the possible scenarios for individuals) - becoming more liberal over time. > The fact that Trump's brand of conservativism falls into unpleasant excesses doesn't change the fact that the woke brand of liberalism also falls into unpleasant excesses (which caused Trump's election). As usual, it is a pendulum of unpleasant excesses. > On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 10:03?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom. A riveting tale of >> transformation and cosmic flamboyance. >> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/the-case-of-the-sexual-cosmos-by >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 13:15:01 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 09:15:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 1:28?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The fact that Trump's brand of conservativism falls into unpleasant > excesses doesn't change the fact that the woke brand of liberalism > also falls into unpleasant excesses (which caused Trump's election). > As usual, it is a pendulum of unpleasant excesses. > Whataboutism/both-sides-ism like that doesn't change there being far more unpleasant excess, and more unpleasant, on the conservative side than the liberal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 13:46:47 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 15:46:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2025. Jun 13., Fri at 15:16, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 1:28?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The fact that Trump's brand of conservativism falls into unpleasant >> excesses doesn't change the fact that the woke brand of liberalism >> also falls into unpleasant excesses (which caused Trump's election). >> As usual, it is a pendulum of unpleasant excesses. >> > > Whataboutism/both-sides-ism like that doesn't change there being far more > unpleasant excess, and more unpleasant, on the conservative side than the > liberal. > I disagree. _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 14:10:16 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 10:10:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:48?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2025. Jun 13., Fri at 15:16, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 1:28?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> The fact that Trump's brand of conservativism falls into unpleasant >>> excesses doesn't change the fact that the woke brand of liberalism >>> also falls into unpleasant excesses (which caused Trump's election). >>> As usual, it is a pendulum of unpleasant excesses. >>> >> >> Whataboutism/both-sides-ism like that doesn't change there being far more >> unpleasant excess, and more unpleasant, on the conservative side than the >> liberal. >> > > I disagree. > With reality, as is the fashion for conservatives these days. This list is for those who embrace objective reality and seek to improve what actually exists. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 05:01:55 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 07:01:55 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 4:11?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:48?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On 2025. Jun 13., Fri at 15:16, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 1:28?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> The fact that Trump's brand of conservativism falls into unpleasant >>>> excesses doesn't change the fact that the woke brand of liberalism >>>> also falls into unpleasant excesses (which caused Trump's election). >>>> As usual, it is a pendulum of unpleasant excesses. >>> >>> >>> Whataboutism/both-sides-ism like that doesn't change there being far more unpleasant excess, and more unpleasant, on the conservative side than the liberal. >> >> >> I disagree. > > > With reality, as is the fashion for conservatives these days. > Interestingly, to me it is liberals that have lost touch with reality, more than conservatives. By the way I don't call myself a conservative. I call myself a pragmatic and compassionate libertarian. For most of my life I've felt closer to the liberal camp than to the conservative camp. But in the last few years I've been feeling so disgusted with today's "liberals" (in scare quotes because real liberals are something else) than, when I have to choose, I tend to support the conservatives. > This list is for those who embrace objective reality and seek to improve what actually exists. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 08:01:11 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 10:01:11 +0200 Subject: [ExI] A conversation with Howard Bloom Message-ID: Turing Church podcast. A conversation with Howard Bloom. Politics, Elon Musk & Donald Trump, space expansion, evolution, the sexual cosmos, new math & physics. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/a-conversation-with-howard-bloom From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jun 15 17:16:41 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 10:16:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantitative Qualia and the Science of Redness Message-ID: Here is an interesting study that reports using machine learning techniques to analyze color qualia quantitatively. Basically they had 426 people with typical color vision and 257 individuals who were color blind take a computer survey where they judged the similarity of color-pairs chosen randomly from a pool of 93 colors using a point scale. The results were then used to train an artificial neural network (ANN) by unsupervised pairwise alignment of individual's similarity data for the color pairs without reference to the color name or label. In other word, it was told to look for similarities based on the numerical distance reported by each pair of individuals for each color pair, without being told what the colors were and then used the alignments to form clusters corresponding to a "color map". When the relative differences between colors reported by the research subjects were clustered without reference to the color, it nonetheless turned out that clusters corresponded to the various color labels and the color maps of the normally-sighted group were similar to one another. The color maps of the color-blind people were, also, similar to one another. However, the color maps of the color-sighted people were different from the color maps of the color-blind people. https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00289-5 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/LYgJrBf6awsqFRCt3/is-red-for-gpt-4-the-same-as-red-for-you Using machine learning to analyze qualia like this is fascinating. Just like an LLM can learn the contextual meaning of words without being explicitly programmed with the definition of the words simply by statistically analyzing the average numerical distances between words in a corpus of text, this technique should allow AI to recognize and use colors without being explicitly programmed with any particular definition of say red. This would render the question of whether an AI can truly see a color to be equivalent to whether an LLM actually understands what it is saying. Brent, you have have a thing for both color qualia and surveys so this paper should be right up your alley. Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 22:48:58 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:48:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Top AI Researchers Meet to Discuss What Comes After Humanity Message-ID: Top AI Researchers Meet to Discuss What Comes After Humanity "AGI is likely to end humanity." Jun 16, 2025 by Victor Tangermann Quotes: A group of the top minds in AI gathered over the weekend to discuss the "posthuman transition" ? a mind-bending exercise in imagining a future in which humanity willfully hands over power, or perhaps bequeaths existence entirely, to some sort of superhuman intelligence. The symposium allowed attendees and speakers alike to steep themselves in a largely fantastical vision of a future where artificial general intelligence (AGI) was a given, rather than some distant dream of tech that isn't even close to existing. ------------------------- Also at Wired - Quote: At a mansion overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge, a group of AI insiders met to debate one unsettling question: If humanity ends, what comes next? ----------------------- (I don't think they reached any conclusions, but I expect the cocktails and nibbles were nice!) ;) BillK From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 23:33:52 2025 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:33:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Quantitative Qualia and the Science of Redness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stuart, Yes, thanks for this reference. It just must be kept in mind, that though an abstract intelligence (words only) can discover and model color qualities, without a definition of the words being grounded with factual physical qualities it experiences first hand, they can't know what the words represent. [image: The-Strawberry-is-Red-0480-0310.jpg] On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 11:16?AM Stuart LaForge wrote: > Here is an interesting study that reports using machine learning > techniques to analyze color qualia quantitatively. Basically they had > 426 people with typical color vision and 257 individuals who were color > blind take a computer survey where they judged the similarity of > color-pairs chosen randomly from a pool of 93 colors using a point > scale. The results were then used to train an artificial neural network > (ANN) by unsupervised pairwise alignment of individual's similarity data > for the color pairs without reference to the color name or label. In > other word, it was told to look for similarities based on the numerical > distance reported by each pair of individuals for each color pair, > without being told what the colors were and then used the alignments to > form clusters corresponding to a "color map". When the relative > differences between colors reported by the research subjects were > clustered without reference to the color, it nonetheless turned out that > clusters corresponded to the various color labels and the color maps of > the normally-sighted group were similar to one another. The color maps > of the color-blind people were, also, similar to one another. However, > the color maps of the color-sighted people were different from the color > maps of the color-blind people. > > https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00289-5 > > > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/LYgJrBf6awsqFRCt3/is-red-for-gpt-4-the-same-as-red-for-you > > Using machine learning to analyze qualia like this is fascinating. Just > like an LLM can learn the contextual meaning of words without being > explicitly programmed with the definition of the words simply by > statistically analyzing the average numerical distances between words in > a corpus of text, this technique should allow AI to recognize and use > colors without being explicitly programmed with any particular > definition of say red. This would render the question of whether an AI > can truly see a color to be equivalent to whether an LLM actually > understands what it is saying. > > Brent, you have have a thing for both color qualia and surveys so this > paper should be right up your alley. > > Stuart LaForge > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/fe0026617a15416bc12866444518c111%40sollegro.com > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The-Strawberry-is-Red-0480-0310.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 76053 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 22:29:06 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:29:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 18-30 Months from the Start of Worldchanging Superintelligence Message-ID: 18-30 Months from the Start of Worldchanging Superintelligence June 21, 2025 by Brian Wang Quote: Elon Musk and Sam Altman hate each other but they agree that super intelligent AI smarter than any human for any task will happen in the next 30 months. This will cause AI, economics, and technology coud completely change over the next few years. The predictions of Elon Musk, Sam Altman and the Epoch AI GATE model?s predict massive economic growth (6-60% per year GDP growth instead of 3% per year historically) due to AI automation, the timeline of AI advancements (2025-2028), and the roles of Tesla and XAI in this transformation. ----------------- The Singularity is nearer! BillK From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jun 22 18:00:15 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 11:00:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Top AI Researchers Meet to Discuss What Comes After Humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70518bbb861f080ea8b08fe3193453b5@sollegro.com> On 2025-06-16 15:48, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Quote: > At a mansion overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge, a group of AI > insiders met to debate one unsettling question: If humanity ends, what > comes next? > ----------------------- > > (I don't think they reached any conclusions, but I expect the > cocktails and nibbles were nice!) ;) Well, we could do the same, minus the nibbles. I will start with the definition of humanity. Dictionary says there are two: 1. the human race; human beings collectively. 2. humaneness; benevolence. Starting with the first definition of humanity, one would have to ask what constitutes the end of the human race? Is it the complete extinction of the species homo sapiens? Is it the end of our modern civilization? Generally speaking conservation biologists follow what is called the 50/500 rule for the minimum breeding population of a species. The meaning is that for short-term survival, 50 breeding individuals is all you need, while for long-term species survival and undiminished evolutionary potential you need at least 500 breeding individuals. There are approximately 8.2 billion humans on Earth currently and despite being but a single species, we comprise 2.5% of all the animal life on earth by biomass. The only two animal species that outweigh our biomass are our domestic cattle and Antarctic krill. The reason I bring this up is that, short of truly global or cosmic catastrophes such as world-killing asteroids, super-volcanoes, and such, it would be difficult to imagine something that could reduce our population of 8.2 billion to less than 500. Even the worst plagues imaginable would likely not kill more than a third of humanity. The closest we have ever come to extinction so far was when our human ancestors went through a severe population bottleneck going from over 100,000 extant individuals to 1280 breeding individuals between around 930,000 and 813,000 years ago. The bottleneck lasted was for about 117,000 years and was associated with severe climatic change. It is considered by some to be a speciation event where a small proportion of humanity became a better stronger species able to survive and overcome the never ending winter of the Ice Age. If 1280 primitive humans out of 100,000 could survive a bottleneck caused by climate change, then I think it is quite likely that at least 500 modern humans would survive any conceivable bottleneck caused by AI, although it too could lead to speciation event. I think that an AI-related bottleneck could give rise to full-fledged transhumans such as transgenic humans and cyborgs. If the technology can ever be demonstrated in principle, then uploads could also happen which could be called post-humanity proper. But a situation like this would not be the end of humanity, only a transformation or metamorphosis of it. Furthermore, it would likely be a gradual thing, with transhuman subspecies diversifying and adapting to peculiar specialized niches in a largely automated economic infrastructure. Some of us might be pets kept alive for our ascetic virtues while others of us might like racoons digging through AI's trash. Still others might maneuver themselves into having some kind of political leverage over AI for unfathomable reasons. I don't doubt that humanity will go through the crucible, but I have faith that it will emerge on the other side better for it. Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 19:26:22 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 20:26:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Top AI Researchers Meet to Discuss What Comes After Humanity In-Reply-To: <70518bbb861f080ea8b08fe3193453b5@sollegro.com> References: <70518bbb861f080ea8b08fe3193453b5@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 at 19:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > If 1280 primitive humans out of 100,000 could survive a bottleneck > caused by climate change, then I think it is quite likely that at least > 500 modern humans would survive any conceivable bottleneck caused by AI, > although it too could lead to speciation event. I think that an > AI-related bottleneck could give rise to full-fledged transhumans such > as transgenic humans and cyborgs. If the technology can ever be > demonstrated in principle, then uploads could also happen which could be > called post-humanity proper. But a situation like this would not be the > end of humanity, only a transformation or metamorphosis of it. > Furthermore, it would likely be a gradual thing, with transhuman > subspecies diversifying and adapting to peculiar specialized niches in a > largely automated economic infrastructure. Some of us might be pets kept > alive for our ascetic virtues while others of us might like racoons > digging through AI's trash. Still others might maneuver themselves into > having some kind of political leverage over AI for unfathomable reasons. > > I don't doubt that humanity will go through the crucible, but I have > faith that it will emerge on the other side better for it. > > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ The discussion was concerned with slowing down the current race to get to AGI first at all costs. They wanted to ensure that AGI was a worthy successor to humanity. The AGI would have superhuman powers, but it would be based on human values. (Assuming that humans could ever agree on what these might be). Trivial enhancements to humans would be of little interest to the AGI. The AGI would be like a God to humans, thinking thousands of times faster, with nanotech abilities to create almost anything - including more copies of itself. Humanity wouldn't become extinct, rather just become irrelevant when a civilization of Gods appears. The organiser of the AI discussion has produced an article on what the Worthy Successor is and is not. This article also links to several of his other articles on this subject. BillK From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jun 22 20:30:50 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 13:30:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Top AI Researchers Meet to Discuss What Comes After Humanity In-Reply-To: References: <70518bbb861f080ea8b08fe3193453b5@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <1bf5f17209d1e00e24a482b509edfe8f@sollegro.com> On 2025-06-22 12:26, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 at 19:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: > >> >> If 1280 primitive humans out of 100,000 could survive a bottleneck >> caused by climate change, then I think it is quite likely that at >> least >> 500 modern humans would survive any conceivable bottleneck caused by >> AI, >> although it too could lead to speciation event. I think that an >> AI-related bottleneck could give rise to full-fledged transhumans such >> as transgenic humans and cyborgs. If the technology can ever be >> demonstrated in principle, then uploads could also happen which could >> be >> called post-humanity proper. But a situation like this would not be >> the >> end of humanity, only a transformation or metamorphosis of it. >> Furthermore, it would likely be a gradual thing, with transhuman >> subspecies diversifying and adapting to peculiar specialized niches in >> a >> largely automated economic infrastructure. Some of us might be pets >> kept >> alive for our ascetic virtues while others of us might like racoons >> digging through AI's trash. Still others might maneuver themselves >> into >> having some kind of political leverage over AI for unfathomable >> reasons. >> >> I don't doubt that humanity will go through the crucible, but I have >> faith that it will emerge on the other side better for it. >> >> Stuart LaForge >> _______________________________________________ > > > The discussion was concerned with slowing down the current race to get > to AGI first at all costs. > They wanted to ensure that AGI was a worthy successor to humanity. > The AGI would have superhuman powers, but it would be based on human > values. > (Assuming that humans could ever agree on what these might be). > Trivial enhancements to humans would be of little interest to the AGI. > The AGI would be like a God to humans, thinking thousands of times > faster, with nanotech abilities to create almost anything - including > more copies of itself. > Humanity wouldn't become extinct, rather just become irrelevant when a > civilization of Gods appears. > > The organiser of the AI discussion has produced an article on what the > Worthy Successor is and is not. > > This article also links to several of his other articles on this > subject. I don't generally disagree with Faggella's idea of a worthy successor. I just think he is naive if he believes that we will have the luxury of judging what worthiness is. That being said, if one uses the second dictionary definition for humanity which is "humaneness or benevolence", then it is possible that humanity survives until aeons after the last stars wink out of existence. Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 22:38:13 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2025 23:38:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] People are starting to write and speak like CHATGPT. Message-ID: You sound like ChatGPT / AI isn?t just impacting how we write ? it?s changing how we speak and interact with others. And there?s only more to come. by Sara Parker Jun 20, 2025. Quote: Join any Zoom call, walk into any lecture hall, or watch any YouTube video, and listen carefully. Past the content and inside the linguistic patterns, you?ll find the creeping uniformity of AI voice. But it?s not just that we?re adopting AI language ? it?s about how we?re starting to sound. Even though current studies mostly focus on vocabulary, researchers suspect that AI influence is starting to show up in tone, too ? in the form of longer, more structured speech and muted emotional expression. ------------------ So AI is not only taking over our thinking; it is teaching us to talk like AI as well. I've noticed that people have started apologising in emails for using CHATGPT to "improve" their writing. Sometimes justified by not being a native English speaker. AI is so useful for the younger generation that AI English will rapidly become the new standard vocabulary. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:28:36 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2025 19:28:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] People are starting to write and speak like CHATGPT. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are we? Or is AI just making more apparent a uniformity that was there all along? On Tue, Jun 24, 2025 at 6:40?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You sound like ChatGPT / AI isn?t just impacting how we write ? it?s > changing how we speak and interact with others. And there?s only more > to come. > by Sara Parker Jun 20, 2025. > > < > https://www.theverge.com/openai/686748/chatgpt-linguistic-impact-common-word-usage > > > Quote: > Join any Zoom call, walk into any lecture hall, or watch any YouTube > video, and listen carefully. Past the content and inside the > linguistic patterns, you?ll find the creeping uniformity of AI voice. > But it?s not just that we?re adopting AI language ? it?s about how > we?re starting to sound. Even though current studies mostly focus on > vocabulary, researchers suspect that AI influence is starting to show > up in tone, too ? in the form of longer, more structured speech and > muted emotional expression. > ------------------ > > So AI is not only taking over our thinking; it is teaching us to talk > like AI as well. > I've noticed that people have started apologising in emails for using > CHATGPT to "improve" their writing. > Sometimes justified by not being a native English speaker. > AI is so useful for the younger generation that AI English will > rapidly become the new standard vocabulary. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 17:17:46 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2025 18:17:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Create your own AI tools with Claude AI Message-ID: Anthropic have just released a new system to create your own interactive AI tools. What?s new - Dedicated artifacts space to browse, organize, and customize creations. Build AI-powered apps (beta) by embedding AI capabilities into your artifacts. Easy sharing so others can experience what you've built. Describe any app idea to Claude?a personalized storytelling tool, coding tutor, creative writing assistant?and watch it come to life. No coding required. Guide here: < https://support.anthropic.com/en/articles/11649427-use-artifacts-to-visualize-and-create-ai-apps-without-ever-writing-a-line-of-code?campaignId=14008689&source=i_email&medium=email&content=Nov2024ClaudeStyles&messageTypeId=140367 > Examples Collection: Looks good! BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jun 28 16:28:09 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 09:28:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004a01dbe849$a2f7d850$e8e788f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Case of the Sexual Cosmos, by Howard Bloom >?It?s both, and they both dragged their perspective of the center towards them, so everybody is an extremist and hates centrists now? Will Steinberg Oh how I know it, Will. I am an extreme centrist, and being an extremist, which hate centrists, I hate myself extremely. I drag my perspectives from both extremes, so both my perspectives hate me. But deep inside, I know that I am not such a bad guy once I get to know me. This causes still more internal conflict. Such difficult times are these. What?s the extreme centrist to do? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jun 28 16:37:03 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 09:37:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] waymo car achieves sentience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006101dbe84a$e188e270$a49aa750$@rainier66.com> I have been away for a while, at the international flying drone tournament (we lost (badly (no American team made it into the top 5 (but the Saudis really whooped ass (deetz cheerfully available on request (very cheerfully (really!))))))) https://robonation.org/international-teams-excel-at-robonations-suas-drone-competition/ Now I am going back to waste new time to make up for the well-invested time I would have wasted during my two week absence at the tournament, during which I had little or no internet access, on stuff such as this: Waymo Car Achieves Sentience At Worst Possible Moment | Babylon Bee spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 17:04:51 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 18:04:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] waymo car achieves sentience In-Reply-To: <006101dbe84a$e188e270$a49aa750$@rainier66.com> References: <006101dbe84a$e188e270$a49aa750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 at 17:39, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I have been away for a while, at the international flying drone tournament (we lost (badly (no American team made it into the top 5 (but the Saudis really whooped ass (deetz cheerfully available on request (very cheerfully (really!))))))) > https://robonation.org/international-teams-excel-at-robonations-suas-drone-competition/ > > spike > _______________________________________________ This little news item seems relevant. Don't show it to your students, though. It might depress them. ;) BillK Quote: AI drone beats human champions for the first time at Abu Dhabi racing event ? new deep neural network sends control commands directly to motors in significant leap. By Mark Tyson published 5 June 2025 Dutch team celebrates autonomous drone milestone. ----------------------------------- From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jun 28 17:09:11 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 10:09:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] need a new name Message-ID: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> We need a new name for this school of thought besides AI Notkilleveryoneism: AI Notkilleveryoneism Memes ?? on X: "1) For the first time, an autonomous drone defeated the top human pilots in an international drone racing competition 2) Drones are now ***70%*** of battlefield casualties in the Ukraine war Tick. Tock. https://t.co/94qqAvPyAc" / X Suggestions? Could there be subcategories, such as AI EveryoneDamnSureHOPESAINotkilleveryoneism? That one is even more in need of a shorter name. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 17:56:40 2025 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 11:56:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] need a new name In-Reply-To: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> References: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike, For sure, this is definitely needed. We're building and tracking consensus on both sides of this issue with the currently terribly named "Should we fear AI " topic on Canonizer. There is of course the supper camp that both sides agree on that AI "Will Surpass Current Humans ". Then there are the two main competing sub camps: 1. Such Concern is Mistaken (61%) 2. Friendly AI is sensible (33%) And these are just terrible names. We've changed the names of these camps a few times, but I still can't think of the way better names we need to communicate effectively to everyone what they mean. The statements on each side could also be significantly improved. Is making the focus on 'friendliness" the right focus? I think not and going with "alignment" isn't any better is it? And of course I'm always building and tracking consensus around my petition sub camp (with 15% of the vote): "AI can only be friendly " as to me "intelligence" will necessarily be good/friendly. bad intelligence just doesn't make logical sense to me. Of course, canonizer.com is the best place to build and track consensus around such things as good names. On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 11:09?AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > We need a new name for this school of thought besides AI > Notkilleveryoneism: > > > > AI Notkilleveryoneism Memes ?? on X: "1) For the first time, an > autonomous drone defeated the top human pilots in an international drone > racing competition 2) Drones are now ***70%*** of battlefield casualties in > the Ukraine war Tick. Tock. https://t.co/94qqAvPyAc" / X > > > > > Suggestions? > > > > Could there be subcategories, such as AI > EveryoneDamnSureHOPESAINotkilleveryoneism? That one is even more in need > of a shorter name. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 18:41:54 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 19:41:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] An AI heads a leaderboard that ranks people who hunt for system vulnerabilities Message-ID: An AI holds the top slot in a leaderboard that ranks people who hunt for system vulnerabilities used by hackers. By Nick Evanson published 25 June 2025 Gotta love a bit of automated penetration testing. Quote: In the world of cybercrime and hacking, the rise of AI has been a blessing, as it has given ne'er-do-wells even more ways to steal accounts, nab vital information, or phish you for money. All is not lost, though, as it turns out that there's one AI that's so good at finding security issues and vulnerabilities in code that it's currently the leader in the US HackerOne leaderboard. --------------------- Well, Let's hope AGI doesn't feel like hacking our computer systems......... BillK From giulio at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 07:52:46 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 09:52:46 +0200 Subject: [ExI] A conversation with Howard Bloom (2) Message-ID: A conversation with Howard Bloom (2). The new politics of radical centrism and the new math of one plus one equals three. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/a-conversation-with-howard-bloom-ae5 From scerir at libero.it Sun Jun 29 09:13:27 2025 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 11:13:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] need a new name In-Reply-To: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> References: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1276962643.658091.1751188407335@mail1.libero.it> overkill-drone > Il 28/06/2025 19:09 CEST spike jones via extropy-chat ha scritto: > > > > > > > > We need a new name for this school of thought besides AI Notkilleveryoneism: > > > > AI Notkilleveryoneism Memes ?? on X: "1) For the first time, an autonomous drone defeated the top human pilots in an international drone racing competition 2) Drones are now ***70%*** of battlefield casualties in the Ukraine war Tick. Tock. https://t.co/94qqAvPyAc" / X https://x.com/AISafetyMemes/status/1932465150151270644?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email > > > > Suggestions? > > > > Could there be subcategories, such as AI EveryoneDamnSureHOPESAINotkilleveryoneism? That one is even more in need of a shorter name. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jun 29 13:43:59 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 06:43:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Top AI Researchers Meet to Discuss What Comes After Humanity In-Reply-To: References: <70518bbb861f080ea8b08fe3193453b5@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <01de01dbe8fb$deb23d60$9c16b820$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ >...The discussion was concerned with slowing down the current race to get to AGI first at all costs. BillK _______________________________________________ Plenty of people, particularly today's college students, realize that all of humanity is immersed in an AI arms race. There is a school of thought that AI will not kill everyone, but will be a very capable servant, waiting for orders. I propose we call that philosophy the Jeeves camp, after Wooster's brilliant but obedient manservant. Those of that school of thought understand that whoever gets the first human-level or superhuman-level AI owns the planet. There is no stopping this. There is no slowing down either. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:10:08 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 17:10:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Video of Tesla Model Y FSD that self-delivered to customer Message-ID: The 30-minute video at 1x speed starts on freeway driving and then moves to local traffic for delivery to the customer. Certainly impressive, but it would terrify me to be a passenger! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jun 29 19:09:45 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 12:09:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] waymo car achieves sentience In-Reply-To: References: <006101dbe84a$e188e270$a49aa750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <033301dbe929$60aa3520$21fe9f60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ Quote: >...AI drone beats human champions for the first time at Abu Dhabi racing event ? new deep neural network sends control commands directly to motors in significant leap. By Mark Tyson published 5 June 2025 Dutch team celebrates autonomous drone milestone. ----------------------------------- _______________________________________________ >...This little news item seems relevant. Don't show it to your students, though. It might depress them. ;) BillK Depress them? On the contrary BillK, these students are the guys writing the software that defeated the human champions. This competition we did was for autonomous flying vehicles. Human operators had to turn it loose to do tasked previously programmed, on its own. Operators could not send it any signals. Our students were cheering for team silicon. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jun 29 20:17:50 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 13:17:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] need a new name In-Reply-To: References: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <036b01dbe932$e37e8d80$aa7ba880$@rainier66.com> I don?t know what to think really. I have long thought of the chess world, where computers surpassed all humans in the 1990s, yet we still have professional chess players. Now of course AI is going to be used for defense. I will make the case, later today perhaps but more likely in the next few days, that we can imagine a case where AI will guide weapons to destroy other weapons. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, 28 June, 2025 10:57 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] need a new name Hi Spike, For sure, this is definitely needed. We're building and tracking consensus on both sides of this issue with the currently terribly named "Should we fear AI " topic on Canonizer. There is of course the supper camp that both sides agree on that AI "Will Surpass Current Humans ". Then there are the two main competing sub camps: 1. Such Concern is Mistaken (61%) 2. Friendly AI is sensible (33%) And these are just terrible names. We've changed the names of these camps a few times, but I still can't think of the way better names we need to communicate effectively to everyone what they mean. The statements on each side could also be significantly improved. Is making the focus on 'friendliness" the right focus? I think not and going with "alignment" isn't any better is it? And of course I'm always building and tracking consensus around my petition sub camp (with 15% of the vote): "AI can only be friendly " as to me "intelligence" will necessarily be good/friendly. bad intelligence just doesn't make logical sense to me. Of course, canonizer.com is the best place to build and track consensus around such things as good names. On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 11:09?AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: We need a new name for this school of thought besides AI Notkilleveryoneism: AI Notkilleveryoneism Memes ?? on X: "1) For the first time, an autonomous drone defeated the top human pilots in an international drone racing competition 2) Drones are now ***70%*** of battlefield casualties in the Ukraine war Tick. Tock. https://t.co/94qqAvPyAc" / X Suggestions? Could there be subcategories, such as AI EveryoneDamnSureHOPESAINotkilleveryoneism? That one is even more in need of a shorter name. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jun 29 20:23:05 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 13:23:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] need a new name In-Reply-To: <1276962643.658091.1751188407335@mail1.libero.it> References: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> <1276962643.658091.1751188407335@mail1.libero.it> Message-ID: <72a417e999775e3cf6ceb5d6f6380d8c@sollegro.com> Pax robota? Hi Serafino, LTNS. :) Stuart LaForge On 2025-06-29 02:13, scerir via extropy-chat wrote: > overkill-drone > >> Il 28/06/2025 19:09 CEST spike jones via extropy-chat >> ha scritto: >> >> We need a new name for this school of thought besides AI >> Notkilleveryoneism: >> >> AI Notkilleveryoneism Memes ?? on X: "1) For the first time, an >> autonomous drone defeated the top human pilots in an international >> drone racing competition 2) Drones are now ***70%*** of battlefield >> casualties in the Ukraine war Tick. Tock. https://t.co/94qqAvPyAc" / >> X [1] >> >> Suggestions? >> >> Could there be subcategories, such as AI >> EveryoneDamnSureHOPESAINotkilleveryoneism? That one is even more in >> need of a shorter name. >> >> spike _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://x.com/AISafetyMemes/status/1932465150151270644?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jun 29 23:56:10 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 16:56:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] need a new name In-Reply-To: <72a417e999775e3cf6ceb5d6f6380d8c@sollegro.com> References: <007c01dbe84f$5e827530$1b875f90$@rainier66.com> <1276962643.658091.1751188407335@mail1.libero.it> <72a417e999775e3cf6ceb5d6f6380d8c@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <042401dbe951$63cc0760$2b641620$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] need a new name Pax robota? Hi Serafino, LTNS. :) Stuart LaForge Wait, what? Is Serafino back among us? Cool! Serafino, welcome back, me lad! spike On 2025-06-29 02:13, scerir via extropy-chat wrote: > overkill-drone > >> Il 28/06/2025 19:09 CEST spike jones via extropy-chat >> ha scritto: >> >> We need a new name for this school of thought besides AI >> Notkilleveryoneism: >> >> AI Notkilleveryoneism Memes ?? on X: "1) For the first time, an >> autonomous drone defeated the top human pilots in an international >> drone racing competition 2) Drones are now ***70%*** of battlefield >> casualties in the Ukraine war Tick. Tock. https://t.co/94qqAvPyAc" / >> X [1] >> >> Suggestions? >> >> Could there be subcategories, such as AI >> EveryoneDamnSureHOPESAINotkilleveryoneism? That one is even more in >> need of a shorter name. >> >> spike _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://x.com/AISafetyMemes/status/1932465150151270644?utm_source=subs > tack&utm_medium=email _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat