[ExI] not that rare earth (part 2 of at least 2)

Sat Nov 1 02:58:35 UTC 2025

If you want to understand this topic, read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element

It is long but fairly comprehensive.

Keith

On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 2:35 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> lreaqdy
>
>
>
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] not that rare earth (part 2 of at least 2)
>
>
>
>
>
> I am disappointed in us.  More specifically, I am disappointed in me.  Reason: we didn’t figure out sooner the reality on rare earth magnets.  I had all the “elements” in place to have seen thru the nonsense sooner, but it wasn’t until last night I figured it out while looking for the recipes for high efficiency magnets, or failing that, just how much of the Chinese monopoly materials are used in high efficiency magnets.  They generally won’t tell, for those are trade secrets.  But I noticed Tesla phased them out, which tells me they designed around them (that is what they did, by going up the period one row for more available materials (which turned out to work as well (and we already know why (going up one row in the period is another element which is chemically similar (especially when used as a grain-size moderator in an alloy (in which the element itself does not form a chemical bond with the iron (as in magnets (we knew all this.))))))
>
>
>
>
>
> …
>
>
>
> >…69% of rare earth mining comes from China, and more importantly 92% of rare earth refining occurs in China….
>
>
>
> Ja, but for some applications, it doesn’t need to be “refined” in the way we think of the term refined.  Down there on the left end of the lanthanide period are a group of elements that aren’t used for much of anything, but they are good for magnets.  If we think of refining as separating them into high purity individual elements, we know that is expensive and difficult because the differential solubilities are very low: they dissolve in the same solvents at levels close to each other, so it takes a lot of cycles of time-consuming money-consuming purification cycles.
>
>
>
> The Chinese don’t tend to refine stuff the way we do, particularly since they understand it isn’t necessary.  A magnet can use a mixture of lanthanides which can vary slightly, and the final product is the same: the presence of a few of those big dumb elements (the lanthanides are a perfect examples of big dumb elements) moderates crystal size in iron and prevents transition from body centered cubic to face centered cubic for instance.
>
>
>
> When the comparison is made in modern magnet technology, we see too often the irrelevant comparison between iron magnets and iron/lanthanide alloy magnets.  The alloys work a lot better.  But where is the comparison between iron/lanthanide and iron/alkali magnets?  Why is that so hard to find?  Reason: every company using those things keeps it as a trade secret.  We hadn’t heard that Tesla doesn’t use rare earth magnets anymore, and that they damn well had designed around them without any noticeable loss of efficiency.
>
>
>
> As to my comment on refining: metallurgy is black magic to this day.  We have no equations that take us straight to the best mixture of stuff gives what characteristics.  We just try things and see what happens.  Tesla apparently just tried alternatives in the alkali metal row, saw that it worked the same as the lanthanide row for all the same reasons, then quietly stopped using the more expensive materials.
>
>
>
> That whole notion that China has the world by the ass because they control rare earth metals didn’t sound right to me the first time I heard it, but I didn’t know why.  Now I know why: those aren’t strictly necessary.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It took China many years to reach that level of production, and the same will be true for the US.
>
>
>
>
>
> But it isn’t necessary.
>
>
>
> >… not what caused China to shut off exports of rare earth elements to the USA, it was because of He Who Must Not Be Named idiotic tariffs.
>
>
>
> Now we are getting close to the truth: the most important current application of rare earth elements is in providing arguments for free trade.  These arguments work even if the materials upon which they are based are not necessary.  Political considerations lead to bad science and bad engineering practice.  This is not to say we have plenty of recent examples of political considerations leading to bad science and bad engineering practice.
>
>
>
> OK retract that last sentence.  This damn well IS to say we have plenty of recent examples of political considerations leading to bad science and bad engineering practice.
>
>
>
> > The Mountain Pass Rare Earth Mine about a km west of Wheaton Springs California is active now. I can see there is a refinery there.
>
>
>
> >…That's nice and I'm glad their stock price…
>
>
>
> I would be a lot more glad about it if I owned some of it.  But now I won’t buy it because I foresee a fall in demand for its product, which is why it has been on intermittent operation for the past half century at least.  We don’t really need those materials.
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
> >…And that is one reason why China's BYD, not Elon Musk's Tesla, now makes the world's most technologically sophisticated electric vehicles…
>
>
>
> As they tell us in their advertisements, ja.  They insist that they are more sophisticated than Elon Musk’s Teslas, in their advertising.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Do we really need rare earth elements to get that extra few percent efficiency in permanent magnets?
>
>
>
> Yes. Not only are rare earth motors more efficient at converting electricity to kinetic energy…John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> John what are we comparing to please?  More efficient than iron magnets?  Sure, true but irrelevant.  Compare the rare earth magnets to alternative material magnets, such as alkali metal magnets, and notice how difficult it is to find that, for that information is held tightly as trade secrets.  These companies all like to compare with iron magnets.  We see the rare earth magnets and the alkali metal magnets are way more efficient, but it isn’t clear the rare earth magnets are better than alkali metal magnets.
>
>
>
> The real problem here is that we are not asking the right questions.  Sure free trade is a good thing, it lifts the masses out of poverty etc.  But it doesn’t answer the question of can alkali metals one row up the period be substituted for rare earth materials?  Looks to me like they can be and have been, without easily measurable loss of performance.
>
>
>
> I am disappointed in us, specifically me, for not recognizing this sooner.  I am mildly hip with chemistry.  I have even been is a situation where a subcontractor jacked us up for a special sauce catalyst they were using, which relies on substituting one rare earth element for another, recognizing they behave the same way, then claiming it was special intellectual property owned by them.  My only flimsy excuse is that it happened 30 years ago, we worked around it and on we went.
>
>
>
> Conclusion: China’s monopoly on rare earth elements has been greatly exaggerated.  We don’t need to recycle wind turbines to get the materials.  We can use substitutes up one period.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat