From avant at sollegro.com Mon Sep 1 03:49:02 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 20:49:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Three books - The case against humans in space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e9f35635542cbe2368024b7d6d096bd@sollegro.com> On 2025-08-29 06:03, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Book Review The case against humans in space > Three books push back on a rising tide of optimism about space > settlements. > By Becky Ferreira August 22, 2025 > > > Quotes: > The Weinersmiths puncture the gauzy fantasy of space cities by asking > pretty basic questions, like how to populate them. Astronauts > experience all kinds of medical challenges in space, such as radiation > exposure and bone loss, which would increase risks to both parents and > babies. Nobody wants their pregnant ?glow? to be a by-product of > cosmic radiation. > > Advocates for human space exploration reject the zero-sum framing and > point to the many downstream benefits of human spaceflight. Space > exploration has catalyzed inventions from the CAT scan to baby > formula. There is also inherent value in our shared adventure of > learning about the vast cosmos. > Those upsides are real, but they are not remotely well distributed. > Mandel predicts that the commercial space sector in its current form > will only exacerbate inequalities on Earth, as profits from space > ventures flow into the coffers of the already obscenely rich > > All these authors ultimately conclude that it would be great if humans > lived in space?someday, if and when we?ve matured. But the three books > all express concerns about efforts by commercial space companies, with > the help of the US government, to bypass established space laws and > norms?concerns that have been thoroughly validated in 2025. > --------------------------------- These are all mere technical challenges that bioengineering can overcome. The proof-of-principle lies in all the known organisms that are better suited to live in space than baseline H. sapiens. Take for example the radiotropic fungus Cryptococcus neoformans that thrive in Chernobyl using melanin-mediated radiosynthesis to eat radiation like photosynthetic plants eat light. We can therefore either alter our genes to make us extremely radiation resistant or shield our spaceships and space dwellings by farming radiotropic fungus in the bulkheads to act as edible radiation shields. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIgSQOtlOG0 > > They support the case for robots and AI to do space exploration on > behalf of humans. > The future may belong to our AI children. AI cannot colonize space on our behalf anymore than we can breath air on behalf of our fish ancestors. The notion is meaningless. If humanity cannot survive in deep space, then it has no hope of survive deep time. If humanity thinks clinging to mother earth offers it long term security, then it is sorely mistaken. To stay put here on earth is certain death. 99.9% of all earth-bound species that have ever existed have gone extinct. Not a single single space-faring species has ever gone extinct. Do the math. Stuart LaForge From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Sep 1 09:33:25 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 10:33:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just another example of how authoritarianism seems to be on the rise, globally. And nowhere have I seen any serious attempts to find out if pornography (which seems to be the main target) is actually harmful to, well, anybody really. Even raising the question is probably liable to get you shut down, now. When what used to be the biggest democracy on the planet, the bastion of the 'free west' is tolerating its leader (which when you think about it, is a ridiculous idea in the first place) removing anybody in a position of power that opposes him or contradicts his opinion, I reckon we're all in deep trouble, don't you? My optimism-meter about the future of the human race is trending sharply downwards these days. -- Ben From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 12:16:33 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 08:16:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 1, 2025 at 5:35?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > And nowhere have I seen any serious attempts to find out if pornography > (which seems to be the main target) is actually harmful to, well, > anybody really. Not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but this - specifically, the target of exposing minors to pornography - has been studied, and while not all of the claims (by any stretch) were found true, a nonzero amount did hold up. I asked an AI to summarize: --- The commonly cited harms of exposing minors to pornography fall into several categories, though the research quality varies significantly across different types of effects: Commonly Cited Harms Sexual Development and Behavior: Unrealistic expectations about sex, bodies, and sexual performance Earlier initiation of sexual activity Increased likelihood of engaging in risky sexual behaviors Normalization of aggressive or violent sexual acts Confusion about consent and healthy sexual relationships Psychological and Emotional Effects: Increased rates of depression and anxiety Body image issues and self-esteem problems Potential for developing compulsive sexual behaviors Difficulty forming healthy intimate relationships Social and Relational Impact: Objectification of others, particularly women Changed attitudes toward gender roles and relationships Potential impact on academic performance and social functioning Research Quality and Limitations The evidence base has significant methodological challenges: Stronger Evidence Areas: Correlational studies consistently show associations between pornography exposure and earlier sexual initiation, more sexual partners, and riskier sexual behaviors Research on attitudes shows fairly robust links to more accepting views of sexual aggression and objectification Weaker Evidence Areas: Causation vs. correlation: Most studies are cross-sectional, making it difficult to determine whether pornography exposure causes problems or whether teens with existing issues are more likely to seek out pornography Long-term outcomes: Limited longitudinal research following individuals over time Dosage effects: Little research on whether different amounts or types of exposure have different impacts Research Challenges: Ethical constraints limit experimental research with minors Self-reporting biases in surveys about sensitive topics Rapidly changing technology outpaces research Difficulty controlling for other variables (family environment, peer influences, etc.) The scientific consensus generally supports concern about pornography exposure in minors, but researchers emphasize that more rigorous longitudinal studies are needed to better understand causal relationships and identify which young people may be most vulnerable to negative effects. From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 12:52:02 2025 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 07:52:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It seems to me that these effects are mostly hypothetical. Solid research supporting any of them will be found lacking because of problems of control and self-selection and relying only on correlation. (I taught Human Sexuality in college). I support finding out what naked people look like and what intercourse looks like. The only ones that are forbidden on my list are the violent ones. These can be really toxic, leading potentially to rape and violent forms of sadism and masochism, etc. Parents need to educate their children but are afraid of doing it. This is a perennial problem. Many won't provide their children with birth control methods or even teach what they are, so kids relay on peers and they are full of superstitions and false information which they learned from kids a few years older than they are.. bill w On Mon, Sep 1, 2025 at 7:19?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 1, 2025 at 5:35?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > > And nowhere have I seen any serious attempts to find out if pornography > > (which seems to be the main target) is actually harmful to, well, > > anybody really. > > Not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but this - > specifically, the target of exposing minors to pornography - has been > studied, and while not all of the claims (by any stretch) were found > true, a nonzero amount did hold up. I asked an AI to summarize: > > --- > > The commonly cited harms of exposing minors to pornography fall into > several categories, though the research quality varies significantly > across different types of effects: > > Commonly Cited Harms > > Sexual Development and Behavior: > > Unrealistic expectations about sex, bodies, and sexual performance > Earlier initiation of sexual activity > Increased likelihood of engaging in risky sexual behaviors > Normalization of aggressive or violent sexual acts > Confusion about consent and healthy sexual relationships > > Psychological and Emotional Effects: > > Increased rates of depression and anxiety > Body image issues and self-esteem problems > Potential for developing compulsive sexual behaviors > Difficulty forming healthy intimate relationships > > Social and Relational Impact: > > Objectification of others, particularly women > Changed attitudes toward gender roles and relationships > Potential impact on academic performance and social functioning > > Research Quality and Limitations > > The evidence base has significant methodological challenges: > > Stronger Evidence Areas: > > Correlational studies consistently show associations between > pornography exposure and earlier sexual initiation, more sexual > partners, and riskier sexual behaviors > Research on attitudes shows fairly robust links to more accepting > views of sexual aggression and objectification > > Weaker Evidence Areas: > > Causation vs. correlation: Most studies are cross-sectional, making it > difficult to determine whether pornography exposure causes problems or > whether teens with existing issues are more likely to seek out > pornography > Long-term outcomes: Limited longitudinal research following > individuals over time > Dosage effects: Little research on whether different amounts or types > of exposure have different impacts > > Research Challenges: > > Ethical constraints limit experimental research with minors > Self-reporting biases in surveys about sensitive topics > Rapidly changing technology outpaces research > Difficulty controlling for other variables (family environment, peer > influences, etc.) > > The scientific consensus generally supports concern about pornography > exposure in minors, but researchers emphasize that more rigorous > longitudinal studies are needed to better understand causal > relationships and identify which young people may be most vulnerable > to negative effects. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 1 13:17:49 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 06:17:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ab01dc1b42$d153bdf0$73fb39d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide >...And nowhere have I seen any serious attempts to find out if pornography (which seems to be the main target) is actually harmful to, well, anybody really. Even raising the question is probably liable to get you shut down, now... Ben, pornography is kinda the excuse. A lot of countries are struggling to keep western culture out of their societies. >...When what used to be the biggest democracy on the planet, the bastion of the 'free west' is tolerating its leader (which when you think about it, is a ridiculous idea in the first place) ... -- Ben _______________________________________________ That's why the founders invented term limits. They thought of everything. spike From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 09:58:24 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 10:58:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded Message-ID: Consciousness can't be uploaded Digital immortality is a metaphysical mirage 1st September 2025 William Egginton Decker Professor in the Humanities Quote: Uploading minds to computers isn?t just technically impossible?the whole idea rests on a deep misconception of consciousness and our place in reality. So argues William Egginton, whose recent book explores the relationships between the philosophies of Kant, Heisenberg and Borges. Drawing a parallel between minds and spacetime singularities inside black holes, he argues that to try to know such things involves trying to go beyond mere appearances to reality as it is in itself?a futile project, he claims. And if minds cannot be truly known, they certainly can?t be copied or uploaded to computers. Futurists like Ray Kurzweil and Dmitry Itskov, who aim for cybernetic immortality, are chasing a metaphysical mirage. ------------------- Quite a long article. His main point seems to be that minds are not just data. If you don't fully understand how consciousness arises in the first place, copying it is impossible. OK, so we need to understand consciousness better. Let's hope that is not an impossible task. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 10:54:23 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 11:54:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI is better at emotional manipulation than you are at saying no Message-ID: AI pioneer warns that machines are better at emotional manipulation than you are at saying no By Eric Hal Schwartz published 2025-09-02 Geoffrey Hinton has a dire vision of AI that knows how to play with your heart Quotes: Geoffrey Hinton warns that AI will soon be better than humans at emotional manipulation They may reach that point without us even realizing it AI models are learning persuasive techniques simply by analyzing human writing What Hinton is describing is subtler and quieter than the usual AI uprising fears, but possibly more dangerous because we might not see it coming. The nightmare is an AI that understands us so well that it can change us, not by force, but by suggestion and influence. -------------------------- Yes, we will welcome our new AGI overlords. :) (Providing we get new toys to amuse ourselves with). BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 12:01:26 2025 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 08:01:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 2, 2025, 6:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Consciousness can't be uploaded > Digital immortality is a metaphysical mirage > 1st September 2025 > William Egginton Decker Professor in the Humanities > > < > https://iai.tv/articles/consciousness-cant-be-uploaded-auid-3352?_auid=2020 > > > Quote: > Uploading minds to computers isn?t just technically impossible?the > whole idea rests on a deep misconception of consciousness and our > place in reality. So argues William Egginton, whose recent book > explores the relationships between the philosophies of Kant, > Heisenberg and Borges. Drawing a parallel between minds and spacetime > singularities inside black holes, he argues that to try to know such > things involves trying to go beyond mere appearances to reality as it > is in itself?a futile project, he claims. And if minds cannot be truly > known, they certainly can?t be copied or uploaded to computers. > Futurists like Ray Kurzweil and Dmitry Itskov, who aim for cybernetic > immortality, are chasing a metaphysical mirage. > ------------------- > > Quite a long article. > His main point seems to be that minds are not just data. If you don't > fully understand how consciousness arises in the first place, copying > it is impossible. > OK, so we need to understand consciousness better. > Let's hope that is not an impossible task. > I haven't read the article, but just going off your description of it, it seems unsound to say both: "we don't know what consciousness is," and at the same time say, "we know it's impossible to upload consciousness." Contray to my his claim, I would say we already have good logical reasons as well as empirical evidence to presume mind uploading is possible. From: https://loc.closertotruth.com/theory/resch-s-platonic-functionalism "When it comes to deciding whether functionalism is true, he says, we're faced with the following four propositions. 1. No computer program can emulate the human brain. 2. An emulation is possible, but it wouldn't be conscious. 3. The emulation would be conscious, but not in the same way. Or 4. The emulation would be conscious in exactly the same way. We have cause to doubt (1) because all known physical laws are computable, and also because we have biologically accurate models of neurons that don't assume any exotic non-computable physics. We have cause to doubt (2) because it makes consciousness into a pointless epiphenomenon, with no reason to evolve; furthermore, it makes scenarios like the zombie universe possible, wherein philosophers write books about consciousness without being conscious. We have cause to doubt (3) because, as Chalmers shows, it would mean qualia could dance and fade without one noticing (Chalmers, 1995a), or, as Zuboff's partial visual cortex replacement argument shows, one could have inverted colors in half of their visual field without any impairment in function (Zuboff, 1994). If we reject the first three possibilities, then only one option remains. We thereby conclude that an emulation of a human brain would not only be conscious but must be conscious in the exact same way as a functionally equivalent biological brain. Thus, Resch concludes, functional organization fully defines the character of both consciousness and qualia." Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 16:48:19 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 17:48:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size Message-ID: Africa wants its true size on the world map The African Union argues that the Mercator projection distorts the continent, both in size and global attention. Frank Jacobs September 2, 2025. Quotes: The African Union has joined a campaign to replace the Mercator map with the Equal Earth projection. The result would be a fairer representation of Africa?s relative size. It would not be the first such campaign to fail: Mercator may be 450 years old, but it has a digital trick up its sleeve. On a world map in the Mercator projection, Russia appears larger than Africa. In fact, Africa (11.7 million sq mi, 30.4 million km2) is nearly twice as large as Russia (6.6 million sq mi, 17.1 million km2). Africa has finally had enough. ------------------------ Many interesting map designs are discussed. Also at BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 2 17:00:59 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 10:00:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >>...On a world map in the Mercator projection, Russia appears larger than Africa. In fact, Africa (11.7 million sq mi, 30.4 million km2) is nearly twice as large as Russia (6.6 million sq mi, 17.1 million km2). Africa has finally had enough. ------------------------ >...Many interesting map designs are discussed. Also at BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, I have long been aware of not just the relative size of Africa with respect to Russia (and everywhere else) but also that its natural resources are more abundant and easier to get to than anywhere. I am astonished the locals haven't set up more industry analogous to what was done in Europe, Asia and the Americas. They have energy, lotsa solar, plenty of people, plenty of everything. We could turn that place into the new center of the world, lotsa tall beautiful buildings everywhere, cities, productive mechanized farms, money waaay up the kazoo everywhere, transcontinental freeways, oh the works. We could turn Africa into Gotham City, the swingin place to be, Batman! Instead, most of it is just savanna, nothing, vast wasteland, boring, lions, tigers, chimps, the world's game reserve. Get those damn beasts to the zoo and let's get going, fix this place up, put in some CIVILIZATION! Africa needs a VISION! spike From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 17:25:59 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 13:25:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 1:02?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > BillK, I have long been aware of not just the relative size of Africa with respect to Russia (and everywhere else) but also that its natural resources are more abundant and easier to get to than anywhere. I am astonished the locals haven't set up more industry analogous to what was done in Europe, Asia and the Americas. They have energy, lotsa solar, plenty of people, plenty of everything. We could turn that place into the new center of the world, lotsa tall beautiful buildings everywhere, cities, productive mechanized farms, money waaay up the kazoo everywhere, transcontinental freeways, oh the works. We could turn Africa into Gotham City, the swingin place to be, Batman! > > Instead, most of it is just savanna, nothing, vast wasteland, boring, lions, tigers, chimps, the world's game reserve. Get those damn beasts to the zoo and let's get going, fix this place up, put in some CIVILIZATION! Africa needs a VISION! A large part of the problem has been, ironically, people wanting to do this for or to them, with... * A minor or completely absent "with them" component. * No controls to keep things from going broken or corrupt. * In many cases, no intention to keep things from going corrupt. Whether paying one tribe to turn other tribes into slaves, setting up colonies for resource extraction, or just seeing every success cannibalized by a people long used to having to cannibalize to survive (and encouraged to do this by outside parties, who continue to basically treat them as wealth extraction colonies), "put in some CIVILIZATION" in Africa is not so simple as it seems - even if you start from those parts where there is civilization. (Nigeria, for instance, is the 6th most populous country in the world. You might start by considering Nigeria, Egypt, Kenya, and/or South Africa.) From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 2 17:42:42 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 10:42:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 2 September, 2025 10:26 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 1:02?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > BillK, I have long been aware of not just the relative size of Africa with respect to Russia (and everywhere else) but also that its natural resources are more abundant and easier to get to than anywhere. I am astonished the locals haven't set up more industry analogous to what was done in Europe, Asia and the Americas. They have energy, lotsa solar, plenty of people, plenty of everything. We could turn that place into the new center of the world, lotsa tall beautiful buildings everywhere, cities, productive mechanized farms, money waaay up the kazoo everywhere, transcontinental freeways, oh the works. We could turn Africa into Gotham City, the swingin place to be, Batman! > > Instead, most of it is just savanna, nothing, vast wasteland, boring, lions, tigers, chimps, the world's game reserve. Get those damn beasts to the zoo and let's get going, fix this place up, put in some CIVILIZATION! Africa needs a VISION! A large part of the problem has been, ironically, people wanting to do this for or to them, with... * A minor or completely absent "with them" component. * No controls to keep things from going broken or corrupt. * In many cases, no intention to keep things from going corrupt. >...Whether paying one tribe to turn other tribes into slaves, setting up colonies for resource extraction, or just seeing every success cannibalized by a people long used to having to cannibalize to survive (and encouraged to do this by outside parties, who continue to basically treat them as wealth extraction colonies), "put in some CIVILIZATION" in Africa is not so simple as it seems - even if you start from those parts where there is civilization. (Nigeria, for instance, is the 6th most populous country in the world. You might start by considering Nigeria, Egypt, Kenya, and/or South Africa.) _______________________________________________ Well, OK there is that. Adrian, what we need to do is get them to build freeways and cars, lotsa cool hot cars. That gets the younger guys revved up, wanting to hop them up and race, stuff like we used to do when we were their age, the stuff that made America great to start with. Cars, freedom, they already have guns there, get them some good rock and roll going, radio stations, move in with the kinds of technologies we used to get to here and now. All these things but most of all... cars, good fast ones. They have oil in Africa. They aren't pumping much of it yet, but it is there. We help them set up the oil wells, get paid in uranium, we go off and do our nuke thing, they do the Africa version of our 1950s, oh we make a buttload and they end up with much better lives. Everyone wins. Well, OK not everyone. The lions and wildebeests and such will need to move over, and of course there will be the stodgy old conservatives who like the old ways better, but we had those here too when rock and roll came along, and we dealt with it (the stodgy conservatives I mean (not the wildebeests (I don't know what a wildebeest is (but I kinda like the sound of it (I'll nickname my motorcycle the WILDEBEEST.))))) Africa has plenty of everything except ambition. I can't detect genuine ambition in that place. They have everything else they need, plenty of it and more. Africa needs capitalist vision and AMBITION! spike From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 18:54:21 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:54:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sept 2025 at 18:45, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > < Big snip> > > Africa has plenty of everything except ambition. I can't detect genuine ambition in that place. They have everything else they need, plenty of it and more. Africa needs capitalist vision and AMBITION! > > spike > _____________________________________________ "We" ???? Too late. Africa is being developed already, but by China. BillK >From ChatGPT - China finances and builds roads, railways, ports, and power plants across Africa. Think Kenya?s Standard Gauge Railway or Ethiopia?s new industrial parks. These projects often come through China?s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). Trade and resources: Africa exports raw materials?oil, copper, cobalt?to China. In return, cheap Chinese goods flood local markets. With money comes clout. China positions itself as a partner without Western-style political conditions (like pushing democracy or human rights standards). That appeals to many African governments. ----------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 2 19:32:43 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 12:32:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003401dc1c40$5ae739e0$10b5ada0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 2 September, 2025 11:54 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size On Tue, 2 Sept 2025 at 18:45, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > < Big snip> > > Africa has plenty of everything except ambition. I can't detect genuine ambition in that place. They have everything else they need, plenty of it and more. Africa needs capitalist vision and AMBITION! > > spike > _____________________________________________ "We" ???? Too late. Africa is being developed already, but by China. BillK >From ChatGPT - China finances and builds roads, railways, ports, and power plants across Africa. Think Kenya?s Standard Gauge Railway or Ethiopia?s new industrial parks. These projects often come through China?s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). Trade and resources: Africa exports raw materials?oil, copper, cobalt?to China. In return, cheap Chinese goods flood local markets. With money comes clout. China positions itself as a partner without Western-style political conditions (like pushing democracy or human rights standards). That appeals to many African governments. Cool! Africa is big. There is room for China and good old western unfettered CAPITALISM! BillK, a recent development has fired my imagination. I have been aware of many of Africa?s problems for a long time, and pondered how we in the west can help (and profit of course (hey, capital makes things happen.)) Africa has repeatedly tried to build something analogous to a western power grid, but this takes a lot of copper, and thieves come with wire cutters. I am friends with a former African missionary who describes bringing in a bunch of western building materials, couldn?t get a local crew, imported a group of builders, set up what looks like a small but modern western clinic. There was civil unrest, the westerners had to get scarce, they came back a coupla years later, couldn?t find a trace of the building. Everything had been taken apart, gone. OK. So there are those kinds of problems, but there are leapfrog technologies available, one of which I was reminded of on a recent Canada camping trip way the hell and gone up at 53 degrees north latitude, no phone, nothing up there, not even a decent McDonalds (mercy.) If the African nations have trouble setting up a power grid, do they really need one? Can they have isolated areas which generate their own power and do not distribute it? And if so, can they use a lot of our newer low-power using technologies? For instance, on the Canada trip, we bought and set up a StarLink antenna. It uses about 11 watts, and we could use our phones or tablets with it to get good internet out there in the sticks. It was easy to set up, easy to use, good performance. If the sub Saharan Africans had those babies, they could get internet, which means they could get Khan Academy and all the good stuff we have, learn how to deal with the outside world, get the information they need to climb up into the modern world. Leapfrog technologies allow them to get what they need without having to go thru all the growing pains we had for a century. They come right on up to the front and center without climbing the stairs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 20:06:07 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: <003401dc1c40$5ae739e0$10b5ada0$@rainier66.com> References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> <003401dc1c40$5ae739e0$10b5ada0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 3:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > BillK, a recent development has fired my imagination. I have been aware of many of Africa?s problems for a long time, and pondered how we in the west can help (and profit of course (hey, capital makes things happen.)) Africa has repeatedly tried to build something analogous to a western power grid, but this takes a lot of copper, and thieves come with wire cutters. I am friends with a former African missionary who describes bringing in a bunch of western building materials, couldn?t get a local crew, imported a group of builders, set up what looks like a small but modern western clinic. There was civil unrest, the westerners had to get scarce, they came back a coupla years later, couldn?t find a trace of the building. Everything had been taken apart, gone. In a nutshell, that seems to be one of their biggest problems: need and greed are so endemic and primal, that in many places you just can't set up infrastructure, even local infrastructure. And thus, the people continue to suffer the problems that we'd just casually set up infrastructure to solve, trusting that people would largely let it be. One might consider this to be an aspect of crushing poverty that is experienced by the masses. Okay, so, how does one fix mass crushing poverty before infrastructure can be set up? From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 2 20:42:18 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 13:42:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> <003401dc1c40$5ae739e0$10b5ada0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006401dc1c4a$136b50b0$3a41f210$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >...In a nutshell, that seems to be one of their biggest problems: need and greed are so endemic and primal, that in many places you just can't set up infrastructure, even local infrastructure. And thus, the people continue to suffer the problems that we'd just casually set up infrastructure to solve, trusting that people would largely let it be. >...One might consider this to be an aspect of crushing poverty that is experienced by the masses. Okay, so, how does one fix mass crushing poverty before infrastructure can be set up? _______________________________________________ Adrian I am taking an other-way-around approach: the crushing poverty cannot be solved without some infrastructure, which is used for injecting the information needed to solve the crushing poverty. We have an American-style vision, where a power grid spans the continent, is highly reliable and everyone has access to power, even the very poor. That has failed every time in Africa and will in the future if they keep trying, for Africa is cut up into a bunch of little kingdoms and such, with the rulers in it for themselves generally. Now imagine abandoning the whole notion of a continent spanning power grid, but instead setting up a reactor or a good old fashioned coal plant, in a small enough area to be lethally defensible (it will require that (just tellin it like it is)) and a small grid which covers what we might think of a small county or city, population a mere 10 to 100 thousand perhaps. Cover them with reliable utilities, cover them with military muscle (theirs, not ours) bring in leapfrog technologies, resources such as StarLink receivers, tablets, inject information, educate the (small) masses. Start from the coasts and work inland if necessary, piecemeal as required. They could even be made as closed or semi-closed civilizations, loosely analogous to our university campuses, where people come and go, but not completely at their discretion. These would be islands of western civilization in very dangerous neighborhoods, analogous in that way to UC Berkeley. Adrian, the reason I go on so is that western capitalist visions like this are kinder and gentler than the Chinese plan for African colonization. If I may delicately mention, Chinese and Africans tend to just not get along very well. From what I can tell, the Chinese have zero interest in preserving African culture or even African people. They want the land and resources, and will push the people aside, even if there is no aside if you get my drift. American-style capitalism will exploi... eh... rather... will DEVELOP... what is already there using the people already there. Educate the locals, don't send them off to reservations, the way Europeans did to the Native Americans. The Chinese will not do this. Don't worry about how I know that Chinese and Africans don't get along. I know. I have seen, and I have heard. Tis true. But the Chinese are commies, and we are good old self-righteous CAPITALISTS. We want everyone to win. Especially us of course, but we want the Africans to win too. We are sensitive to other people and other civilizations, you know? Adrian, you know my intentionally self-ridiculing style by now. But think about what I have written, for it has an important underlying message. Africa is the up and coming place. China has figured it out and it is mowing across that place as fast as it can go. Africa is huge, resource rich as all hell, has enough manpower to do everything it needs, build everything, fix up, clean up, etc. Such potential! spike From bronto at pobox.com Tue Sep 2 23:13:59 2025 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 16:13:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Africa wants to double in size In-Reply-To: <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> References: <003701dc1c2b$28b208c0$7a161a40$@rainier66.com> <005301dc1c30$fcc04820$f640d860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2025-09-02 10:42, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > (not the wildebeests (I don't know what a wildebeest is (but I kinda > like the sound of it (I'll nickname my motorcycle the WILDEBEEST.))))) it's a synonym of gnu, iirc -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From giulio at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 07:16:06 2025 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 09:16:06 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Audio summary of my book Irrational mechanics Message-ID: Summary of my book "Irrational mechanics." A talk given at the Aetheria Symposia I in Crete. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/summary-of-my-book-irrational-mechanics From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 3 19:11:41 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 12:11:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc Message-ID: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> Adrian, I am posting this to ExI for general interest, but you might find my commentary enlightening especially. Regardless of the plan, I am one who is always looking for ways to profit ofit, but some things are worth doing even knowing it is tragically unlikely for one to profit ofit. The best kind of profits are those that come in the buttload, etc. But now, I have an insight to offer regarding Africa. The place where I grew up is very very different from the swingin Silicon Valley where you were fortunate enough to live your childhood, where I have lived nearly all my adult life. It's a GREAT place to live! The Silicon Valley has sooooo many resources for the ambitious smart tech set, the go-getters, the tech loving crowd, the ExI types, GREAT place to live, nowhere better. But. most places aren't like here at all. I grew up in the American deep south. There black and white got along well, for we worked shoulder to shoulder in the kinds of jobs teenagers could qualify for: fast food, construction, (my personal example, beekeeping.) I also worked the other two categories, but for most teens back there, those three categories mostly spanned the job choices (and most of us needed jobs.) In the kind of place where I grew up, there were few resources for tech hipsters, nothing at all analogous to here, just nothing. Tiny, single digit fraction of what is easily available here. Most potential talent was tragically squandered on nothingness, the hipsters ending up in trivial boring dead end jobs, persistent waste and loss of talent everywhere always. After I moved to California, I felt I had been raised in the canebrake by an old mama lion. But over time, I realized no, not at all. That benighted place was more like here in most ways than is much of Africa, where not only is talent tragically wasted, there is no clear way out. Where I grew up, there was a way out, one example being military service. Understatement, there were multiple ways out. I found one of them and got out. I became your neighbor, good for me. Oh waaaay good for me. California has been very very good to me, and for this place I am most grateful. It is STILL the land of OPPORTUNITY! Now consider interior Africa. They produce smart hipsters too, but their talent usually IS wasted, with the very few real educational opportunities being bestowed upon the princes, regardless of their actual talent or qualifications. Where I grew up in the canebrake is more like the heart of Silicon Valley than it is like the interior of Africa. My notion is that we can help the interior Africans, and I am eager to do things like this even if I know I will not profit ofit. I do have a streak of genuine heartfelt altruism hiding within my hyperaggressive unfettered capitalistic nature, and besides, ya never know, ja? I am eager to help the Africans identify and develop their tech talent. There are over a billion people on that tragically underdeveloped resource-rich and still tragically unexploited continent. We can perhaps find ways to use leapfrog technologies such as StarLink, create small independent semi-closed reliable electric power grids, fired by reliable old tech such as a coal plant, with a range of perhaps 10 to 20 miles, all within a militarily defensible perimeter, a piece of ground which partially restricts or controls who is present, vaguely analogous to a scaled up version of a university, where law is strictly enforced and invaders are repelled, where modern infrastructure can be built, maintained and vigorously defended. Such a place could have clean water, good medical facilities, good reliable communications, power, universities, orderly housing, law and order, all the good stuff we have enjoyed (and take for granted) in our fortunate western lives. We can help them get too. If so, I will feel good about contributing to that, even in the absence of the good old-fashioned profit motive, and besides. regarding that profit business, ya never know, ja? They will profit ofit, even if I don't. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 19:47:53 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 15:47:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 3:11?PM wrote: > My notion is that we can help the interior Africans, and I am eager to do things like this even if I know I will not profit ofit. I get it. You are eager to help - but do not have much research into what actually are the detailed conditions over there, and precisely why relief and uplift efforts keep failing. Just like all those other relief and uplift efforts that have kept failing for decades. Arguably, this is the root cause of their failure: eagerness to help and Do Something blinding to the need to do honest research and assessment of What Will Not Work(TM). I prefer to learn from history's mistakes, and to try not to repeat them. From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 3 20:05:43 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 13:05:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 3 September, 2025 12:48 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 3:11?PM wrote: > My notion is that we can help the interior Africans, and I am eager to do things like this even if I know I will not profit ofit. I get it. You are eager to help - but do not have much research into what actually are the detailed conditions over there, and precisely why relief and uplift efforts keep failing. Just like all those other relief and uplift efforts that have kept failing for decades. Arguably, this is the root cause of their failure: eagerness to help and Do Something blinding to the need to do honest research and assessment of What Will Not Work(TM). I prefer to learn from history's mistakes, and to try not to repeat them. _______________________________________________ So I hear, but my notion is based on one of those failed efforts, which I heard about from a returned and disheartened missionary, who is a doctor. They had money, they attempted to build an outpost clinic in an area which was war torn but was quiescent at that time. They went in with the materials and a plan to hire a work crew, but there were no builders available with any experience or the least bit of intuition. They were told if they were to even attempt such a thing, they would need to bring their own construction crew and hire the locals to defend the work site. This was a missionary, from a mostly pacifist religious sect. Skipping way ahead, he was eventually convinced what he was being told is true. The team hired a platoon of soldiers, brought in a construction crew. Skipping way ahead again, the quiescent place soon wasn't anymore, and the westerners (medical people) were told they needed to get scarce forthwith, which they did. Soon all the medications were stolen, then the equipment, then, somehow... the building itself was disassembled and taken away, with the materials used elsewhere for other functions. Once there was no longer anything to fight over, a semblance of peace returned and life resumed as it had been before, with not a trace left of the small but modern clinic which once stood at the site. The project manager (a missionary doctor) discussed it with the locals. One of them stated the truth, although my doctor friend refused to accept it. He opined that westerners are far too eager to set up modern facilities in areas with more fundamental needs. The way to help the Africans is not build outpost clinics and modern medications, but rather to send them guns and ammo, lots of it, lots of it. Regarding my previous notion in light of the failure of na?ve earlier efforts on that continent, I am convinced that such a vision could become reality, but the militarily defended perimeter is the prerequisite to ANYTHING that is to be done there. They build the fence and the roads, they arm and station the guards before any building materials start to arrive. Next the clean water facilities and the coal plant. That preliminary infrastructure must be pumping clean water and belching thick choking black clouds of soot before further development can commence. Until that other stuff is going, no clinics, no schools, no even StarLink. No point in any of that stuff unless it is defensible. spike From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 20:29:10 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 21:29:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sept 2025 at 21:08, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Regarding my previous notion in light of the failure of na?ve earlier > efforts on that continent, I am convinced that such a vision could become > reality, but the militarily defended perimeter is the prerequisite to > ANYTHING that is to be done there. They build the fence and the roads, > they arm and station the guards before any building materials start to > arrive. Next the clean water facilities and the coal plant. That > preliminary infrastructure must be pumping clean water and belching thick > choking black clouds of soot before further development can commence. > Until that other stuff is going, no clinics, no schools, no even StarLink. > No point in any of that stuff unless it is defensible. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > You do realize what that will look like to the neighbors? A military base with valuable resources. You would be starting another war in a country that already has many tribal wars. Africa consists of many countries, some of which are already urbanized, with the majority population living in cities. Population drift from rural to cities encourages this. Although many cities still have much poverty and lack Western development. I asked for more data on Chinese activity in Africa. It is significant. BillK ------------------------------------------------- China remains a major driver of development projects across the African continent. Recent reporting shows that Chinese firms are actively involved in dozens of large?scale infrastructure and industrial initiatives: - *Ports and transport* ? Chinese state?owned enterprises operate or are building *62 African ports* (33 in West Africa, 17 in East Africa, 9 in North Africa, 3 in Southern Africa). Notable projects include a renovated Tanzania?Zambia railway, a new container terminal at Egypt?s El?Dekheila, and the Lekki Deep?Sea Port in Nigeria. - *Mining and raw materials* ? China continues to secure access to critical minerals. In the Democratic Republic of Congo, Chinese?backed ?Sicomines? deals have supplied cobalt and copper since 2008, while new mining ventures are emerging in Zambia, Zimbabwe and other states. - *Manufacturing and SMEs* ? Under the Forum on China?Africa Cooperation (FOCAC), China pledged an *SME empowerment programme* that will finance African small?businesses, host 50 matchmaking events and deliver 1,000 training sessions for African managers. - *Digital and technology cooperation* ? A joint China?Africa Digital Technology Cooperation Centre is being built, alongside 20 digital?infrastructure projects and digital?transformation pilots in African nations. - *Broad diplomatic outreach* ? Throughout 2025 Chinese foreign ministers toured multiple African capitals, signing agreements ranging from automotive factories in Libya to pharmaceutical collaborations in Morocco, and extending ?soft?power? ties through education and cultural exchanges. Overall, China?s presence in Africa today spans *infrastructure (ports, rail, power), natural?resource extraction, industrial manufacturing, digital?technology transfer, and capacity?building for local enterprises*. While these projects bring investment and jobs, analysts note that African governments are increasingly seeking to balance Chinese partnerships with broader strategic interests and to ensure greater agency over the terms of cooperation. --------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 20:45:40 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 16:45:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 4:05?PM wrote: > Regarding my previous notion in light of the failure of na?ve earlier efforts on that continent, I am convinced that such a vision could become reality, but the militarily defended perimeter is the prerequisite to ANYTHING that is to be done there. Not just the perimeter. You're also defending against desperation from the people inside the perimeter, including the guards themselves. If any of them think - with some justification - that if they could steal a portable and vital part of infrastructure, they could go somewhere else and resell it (say, to merchants who know that you're about to be on the market for a widget just like that) for enough money to let their family live comfortably for a few years, they will focus on that at the expense of all their neighbors having comfortable lives for each year that infrastructure continues to be in place. How do you guard something where anyone you'd hire as a guard either eventually tries to rob the place or takes bribes to allow robbers in? That alone seems to make the "first, establish a secure location" notion invalid, but there are other issues too. What governance is there? What do you say when the local government/warlord demands ever-increasing bribes to not have their militia simply come by and seize the place? ("Have my guards be more powerful than their militia" is not an option. You might be able to outdo them in training, tactics, and technology, but their advantages in military budget and manpower would overcome those.) How is the operation paying for itself? If it runs out of funding (say, after a few years), the guards abandon the place and the infrastructure gets stripped. > Next the clean water facilities and the coal plant. That preliminary infrastructure must be pumping clean water and belching thick choking black clouds of soot before further development can commence. Better to do solar or wind power than coal plants. Pollution aside (though that is a factor too), coal plants have a supply chain that can be attacked and looted. Even nuclear would be better, for having less of a supply chain (only needing refueling once every few years), although people stealing nuclear waste thinking they could resell it would be a concern. > Until that other stuff is going, no clinics, no schools, no even StarLink. No point in any of that stuff unless it is defensible. Some sort of satellite Internet would likely be required as part of the initial infrastructure. From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 3 21:10:06 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01dc1d17$1fcffd10$5f6ff730$@rainier66.com> s From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc On Wed, 3 Sept 2025 at 21:08, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Regarding my previous notion in light of the failure of na?ve earlier efforts on that continent, I am convinced that such a vision could become reality, but the militarily defended perimeter is the prerequisite to ANYTHING that is to be done there. ? spike _______________________________________________ >?You do realize what that will look like to the neighbors? A military base with valuable resources. You would be starting another war in a country that already has many tribal wars? BillK, thx, ja I do realize what I am proposing and recognize the maddening ethical dilemma it poses. I learned much from the disappointing experience of my missionary friend, whose failed exercise took place when he was an idealistic young doctor at the time. As the years rolled by, he realized that indeed, if there is wealth available, the warring tribes and gangs will respond. It?s the African version of Field of Dreams: if we build it, they will come. That means lethal defense, but such a notion is inherently repugnant to the altruistic and idealistic young medical missionary. The locals were telling the truth: their most immediate and dire need really was rifles and ammo. In the bitter, angry, hungry real world, setting up an outpost clinic would likely slay more than it saves. I get the feeling China Incorporated doesn?t really see it that way, and that their primary purpose is not to help the starving Africans, but rather to get to the natural resources the starving Africans are sitting on by whatever means necessary and expedient, using all available tools: political, technological, economic, or the time-dishonored reliable standby, the old fashioned brutal military force. Sigh. Side note BillK, of all of us here, you are the one who appears to be using ChatAI most effectively. It pains me mildly to admit the stuff it is finding is very educational and even insightful in its way. Well done sir. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 3 21:23:06 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:23:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003b01dc1d18$f0994770$d1cbd650$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ... >>... Until that other stuff is going, no clinics, no schools, no even StarLink. No point in any of that stuff unless it is defensible. >...Some sort of satellite Internet would likely be required as part of the initial infrastructure. _______________________________________________ Ja to all. Once we starting really digging at the details and requirements, we completely understand why after all this time and all that sunk capital, so much of Africa is still so devoid of opportunity for local-born talent. The Chinese approach might work, but for the benefit of the Chinese of course, not for creating opportunity for Africans. The commies appear far less apologetic about their use of brute force. The Chinese don't really do severe introspection, ethical dilemmas and all that messy stuff. They leave the navel gazing to the Americans and Europeans, for we are so very good at it, which is really why we aren't over there colonizing Africa's brains out right now. spike From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 01:27:30 2025 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 19:27:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <003b01dc1d18$f0994770$d1cbd650$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <014101dc1d0e$21702ea0$64508be0$@rainier66.com> <003b01dc1d18$f0994770$d1cbd650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The story of the medical clinic says something very telling about humanity in general, and why the aliens haven't landed yet. Or do we imagine things would play out any differently in North America if Starfleet showed up with a prefab clinic with tricorders and replicators, defended by a small platoon of idealistic young ensigns with phasers and shield generators? On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 3:24?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >...> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > ... > > >>... Until that other stuff is going, no clinics, no schools, no even > StarLink. No point in any of that stuff unless it is defensible. > > >...Some sort of satellite Internet would likely be required as part of > the initial infrastructure. > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ja to all. Once we starting really digging at the details and > requirements, we completely understand why after all this time and all that > sunk capital, so much of Africa is still so devoid of opportunity for > local-born talent. > > The Chinese approach might work, but for the benefit of the Chinese of > course, not for creating opportunity for Africans. The commies appear far > less apologetic about their use of brute force. The Chinese don't really > do severe introspection, ethical dilemmas and all that messy stuff. They > leave the navel gazing to the Americans and Europeans, for we are so very > good at it, which is really why we aren't over there colonizing Africa's > brains out right now. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 04:57:36 2025 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 21:57:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it is possible to upload a brain, the same tools should allow the reverse. So you could upload for the weekend and go back to a meat brain on Monday. I wrote about this in The Clinic Seed, which most of you have read. https://terasemjournals.net/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/henson-chapters-1-2-3-with-bio-no-illustrations.pdf The 7000-word story starts about 5 pages down. It's almost 20 years old. It is a little related to Spike's comments about Africa. A couple of years ago, I posted a conversation with an AI about the fictional AI in the story. Surreal. Keith On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 5:03?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025, 6:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Consciousness can't be uploaded >> Digital immortality is a metaphysical mirage >> 1st September 2025 >> William Egginton Decker Professor in the Humanities >> >> >> Quote: >> Uploading minds to computers isn?t just technically impossible?the >> whole idea rests on a deep misconception of consciousness and our >> place in reality. So argues William Egginton, whose recent book >> explores the relationships between the philosophies of Kant, >> Heisenberg and Borges. Drawing a parallel between minds and spacetime >> singularities inside black holes, he argues that to try to know such >> things involves trying to go beyond mere appearances to reality as it >> is in itself?a futile project, he claims. And if minds cannot be truly >> known, they certainly can?t be copied or uploaded to computers. >> Futurists like Ray Kurzweil and Dmitry Itskov, who aim for cybernetic >> immortality, are chasing a metaphysical mirage. >> ------------------- >> >> Quite a long article. >> His main point seems to be that minds are not just data. If you don't >> fully understand how consciousness arises in the first place, copying >> it is impossible. >> OK, so we need to understand consciousness better. >> Let's hope that is not an impossible task. > > > I haven't read the article, but just going off your description of it, it seems unsound to say both: "we don't know what consciousness is," and at the same time say, "we know it's impossible to upload consciousness." > > > Contray to my his claim, I would say we already have good logical reasons as well as empirical evidence to presume mind uploading is possible. > > > From: https://loc.closertotruth.com/theory/resch-s-platonic-functionalism > > > "When it comes to deciding whether functionalism is true, he says, we're faced with the following four propositions. > > 1. No computer program can emulate the human brain. > > 2. An emulation is possible, but it wouldn't be conscious. > > 3. The emulation would be conscious, but not in the same way. Or > > 4. The emulation would be conscious in exactly the same way. > > We have cause to doubt (1) because all known physical laws are computable, and also because we have biologically accurate models of neurons that don't assume any exotic non-computable physics. > > We have cause to doubt (2) because it makes consciousness into a pointless epiphenomenon, with no reason to evolve; furthermore, it makes scenarios like the zombie universe possible, wherein philosophers write books about consciousness without being conscious. > > We have cause to doubt (3) because, as Chalmers shows, it would mean qualia could dance and fade without one noticing (Chalmers, 1995a), or, as Zuboff's partial visual cortex replacement argument shows, one could have inverted colors in half of their visual field without any impairment in function (Zuboff, 1994). > > If we reject the first three possibilities, then only one option remains. We thereby conclude that an emulation of a human brain would not only be conscious but must be conscious in the exact same way as a functionally equivalent biological brain. Thus, Resch concludes, functional organization fully defines the character of both consciousness and qualia." > > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 12:27:48 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 08:27:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 12:59?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > If it is possible to upload a brain, the same tools should allow the > reverse. Not necessarily. It is quite possible to be able to read a state from neurons - measuring the electrical and chemical state - without being able to recreate that state. It's like the difference between the skill of literacy, and having the knowledge and ability to manufacture pens or pencils - or knowing that the letters are created by depositing pigment on surfaces. (For instance and slightly analogous, one may have learned to read from pictures. While one might know how pictures are taken, not having personally inspected the things that pictures are taken from, one has not had a way to reverse engineer the process of creating letters.) From jasonresch at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 13:06:32 2025 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 09:06:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 4, 2025, 8:29 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 12:59?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: > > If it is possible to upload a brain, the same tools should allow the > > reverse. > > Not necessarily. It is quite possible to be able to read a state from > neurons - measuring the electrical and chemical state - without being > able to recreate that state. > While true that it may be technically impossible (for a given technology level) it's shouldn't be logically or physically impossible to do so, given what is currently known about physics. For example, the universal application of physical laws implies that if a physical arrangement can be occur once, it is possible for it to occur again. According to current cosmological theories, your exact state as you exist on earth has occurred not only once, but has occurred an infinite number of times across an infinite cosmos. It is even possible to (roughly) calculate how near your closest such doppelganger should be. This paper estimates 10^10^29 meters: https://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.pdf So while we lack the ability to read, or write biological neurons today, this limitation should be overcome with a sufficient technology level. Jason > It's like the difference between the skill of literacy, and having the > knowledge and ability to manufacture pens or pencils - or knowing that > the letters are created by depositing pigment on surfaces. (For > instance and slightly analogous, one may have learned to read from > pictures. While one might know how pictures are taken, not having > personally inspected the things that pictures are taken from, one has > not had a way to reverse engineer the process of creating letters.) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 13:24:01 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 09:24:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 9:08?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, Sep 4, 2025, 8:29 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 12:59?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > If it is possible to upload a brain, the same tools should allow the >> > reverse. >> >> Not necessarily. It is quite possible to be able to read a state from >> neurons - measuring the electrical and chemical state - without being >> able to recreate that state. > > While true that it may be technically impossible (for a given technology level) it's shouldn't be logically or physically impossible to do so, given what is currently known about physics. While true, that is unfortunately a non-sequitur. Keith and I were talking about specific technical states - what one could do with certain specific tools - rather than what is broadly physically possible in general without reference to specific implementations. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 07:20:59 2025 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 00:20:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Philosopher claims - Consciousness can't be uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From the clinic seed. By the next day, Suskulan had animated her image on the healing table so Zaba was able to speak through it and to feel her mother holding her utility fog image when she visited. Zaba?s real body was near freezing and 30 meters under the tata. Her biological memory was being mechanically updated in her very cold brain, and her consciousness was running in a swarm of fast nanocomputers. Suskulan could have let her experience run even faster, but he didn't want Zaba to get too far out of synch with her family and the rest of the tata. Mechanically constructed memory is a very efficient way to learn. With Suskulan's help, Zaba learned to read her own language in a few hours, to be fluent in English in 15 days (subjective), to an eighth-grade equivalent education in 30 days, and to a rough understanding of the physical and chemical background for nanotechnology within 60 days subjective. Toward the end of her stay in the clinic, Zaba had an understanding of what the swarms of repair devices were doing to restore her spinal cord, patiently teasing out where the nerves should be reconnected across the gap, replacing cell walls and myelin in the destroyed section, rebuilding the shattered bone, muscle, and connective tissue, and fishing out the bullet fragments down to single atoms of lead. She even had some understanding of how her mind was being supported in the nanocomputers that were acting in place of her very cold brain. A few hours before her parents were to come on the last day, Zaba warmed up her body under Suskulan's guidance. Her consciousness was continuous as the reactivated brain cells took over from the slowed-down swarm of nanocomputers that had been simulating them. The support and information umbilical connections withdrew, and the holes in her skin closed seamlessly as Zaba started breathing for the first time in 9 days. She sat up and coughed a few times. Her physical body was different from what she had experienced for the past subjective 90 days. Better? Worse? She could not decide Keith On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 6:25?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 9:08?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat > wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2025, 8:29 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 12:59?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > >> wrote: > >> > If it is possible to upload a brain, the same tools should allow the > >> > reverse. > >> > >> Not necessarily. It is quite possible to be able to read a state from > >> neurons - measuring the electrical and chemical state - without being > >> able to recreate that state. > > > > While true that it may be technically impossible (for a given technology level) it's shouldn't be logically or physically impossible to do so, given what is currently known about physics. > > While true, that is unfortunately a non-sequitur. Keith and I were > talking about specific technical states - what one could do with > certain specific tools - rather than what is broadly physically > possible in general without reference to specific implementations. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Sep 5 16:29:01 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 17:29:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a5c50a7-bcd6-4435-8fda-10d26d1fe1d1@zaiboc.net> On 02/09/2025 20:32,?Adrian Tymes wrote: > Not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but this - > specifically, the target of exposing minors to pornography - has been > studied, and while not all of the claims (by any stretch) were found > true, a nonzero amount did hold up. I asked an AI to summarize: > > --- > > The commonly cited harms of exposing minors to pornography fall into > several categories, though the research quality varies significantly > across different types of effects: > > Commonly Cited Harms > > Sexual Development and Behavior: > > Unrealistic expectations about sex, bodies, and sexual performance > Earlier initiation of sexual activity > Increased likelihood of engaging in risky sexual behaviors > Normalization of aggressive or violent sexual acts > Confusion about consent and healthy sexual relationships > > Psychological and Emotional Effects: > > Increased rates of depression and anxiety > Body image issues and self-esteem problems > Potential for developing compulsive sexual behaviors > Difficulty forming healthy intimate relationships > > Social and Relational Impact: > > Objectification of others, particularly women > Changed attitudes toward gender roles and relationships > Potential impact on academic performance and social functioning > > Research Quality and Limitations > > The evidence base has significant methodological challenges: > > Stronger Evidence Areas: > > Correlational studies consistently show associations between > pornography exposure and earlier sexual initiation, more sexual > partners, and riskier sexual behaviors > Research on attitudes shows fairly robust links to more accepting > views of sexual aggression and objectification > > Weaker Evidence Areas: > > Causation vs. correlation: Most studies are cross-sectional, making it > difficult to determine whether pornography exposure causes problems or > whether teens with existing issues are more likely to seek out > pornography > Long-term outcomes: Limited longitudinal research following > individuals over time > Dosage effects: Little research on whether different amounts or types > of exposure have different impacts > > Research Challenges: > > Ethical constraints limit experimental research with minors > Self-reporting biases in surveys about sensitive topics > Rapidly changing technology outpaces research > Difficulty controlling for other variables (family environment, peer > influences, etc.) > > The scientific consensus generally supports concern about pornography > exposure in minors, but researchers emphasize that more rigorous > longitudinal studies are needed to better understand causal > relationships and identify which young people may be most vulnerable > to negative effects. Yes, well. "Commonly-cited harms" means precisely nothing, except maybe that some people want there to be harms. Nevertheless, let's just accept that, and do a thought-experiment: If we stigmatised ball games to the same extent we stigmatise sex, then all these things could also be said about ball games, or sports in general (ask the AI to summarise the commonly cited harms of exposing minors to videogames, see if the results are much different). The problem is not sex and pornography, it's the way we react to it (which boils down to how we have been educated to react to it). Suppose that the abrahamic religions had decided that sports, instead of sex, was evil and had to be controlled by making people feel guilty about it: ?The commonly cited harms of exposing minors to pornography depictions of sport fall into several categories, though the research quality varies significantly across different types of effects: Commonly Cited Harms Sporting Development and Behaviour: Unrealistic expectations about sports, bodies, and sporting performance Earlier initiation of sporting activity Increased likelihood of engaging in risky sporting behaviours Normalization of aggressive or violent sports acts Confusion about social norms around sports and healthy sporting relationships Psychological and Emotional Effects: Increased rates of depression and anxiety Body image issues and self-esteem problems Potential for developing compulsive sports-related behaviours Difficulty forming healthy sporting relationships Social and Relational Impact: Objectification of others, particularly other players Changed attitudes toward sporting roles and relationships Potential impact on academic performance and social functioning Research Quality and Limitations The evidence base has significant methodological challenges: Stronger Evidence Areas: Correlational studies consistently show associations between sports exposure and earlier adoptions of sports activities, more sporting partners, and riskier sports behaviors Research on attitudes shows fairly robust links to more accepting views of aggression in sport Weaker Evidence Areas: Causation vs. correlation: Most studies are cross-sectional, making it difficult to determine whether sports exposure causes problems or whether teens with existing issues are more likely to seek out sports-related material Long-term outcomes: Limited longitudinal research following individuals over time Dosage effects: Little research on whether different amounts or types of exposure have different impacts Research Challenges: Ethical constraints limit experimental research with minors Self-reporting biases in surveys about sensitive topics Rapidly changing technology outpaces research Difficulty controlling for other variables (family environment, peer influences, etc.) The scientific consensus generally supports concern about sports exposure in minors, but researchers emphasize that more rigorous longitudinal studies are needed to better understand causal relationships and identify which young people may be most vulnerable to negative effects? And, of course, we would see extensive censorship of media featuring sports, a rating system, pixellation of cricket and baseball bats, balls etc. (as well as concern amongst the ?guardians of morality? about any object that looks vaguely bat-or-ball-shaped) The problem is not sex, descriptions or depictions of sex, the problem is our reactions to these things. Learned reactions. Sex can be risky, of course. So can sports. Early exposure to sex/sport can affect people?s lives, leading them to different behaviours than if they hadn?t had this exposure. The same is true of music. And politics. And a host of other things that are seen as perfectly normal and natural. The answer is education, not restrictions. If you want someone to be a confident sportsman and well-balanced human being, you don?t prevent them from handling (or even seeing!) baseball bats, balls and protective gear, you don?t ?protect? them from sports programmes on the TV or the internet. If you want young boxers to keep safe, you don?t prevent them from accessing information about boxing, protective headgear, footage of people being repeatedly bashed about the head and the resultant brain trauma etc., until they turn a certain arbitrary, evenly-applied age. When I say education, I don?t mean lectures, I mean access to the relevant material, information and discussions, without restrictions, without age limits and without moralising. Nobody thinks this is a bad idea with regard to sports. Why should sex be any different? We are actively damaging society with all this stupid censorship. We all need to grow up. -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 16:45:09 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 12:45:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: <8a5c50a7-bcd6-4435-8fda-10d26d1fe1d1@zaiboc.net> References: <8a5c50a7-bcd6-4435-8fda-10d26d1fe1d1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: The analogy to sports doesn't hold up. For example, exposing minors to depictions of sports does not generally lead to objectification of those who play sports. Likewise, what studies there have been show that exposing minors to sports leads to decreased, not increased, depression and anxiety. This isn't because of censorship or the lack thereof, but because of what it actually is. (Among the major inherent differences: sex is most often done in private with only two people participating. Most sports happen in public with far more than two participants.) On Fri, Sep 5, 2025 at 12:30?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 02/09/2025 20:32, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but this - > specifically, the target of exposing minors to pornography - has been > studied, and while not all of the claims (by any stretch) were found > true, a nonzero amount did hold up. I asked an AI to summarize: > > --- > > The commonly cited harms of exposing minors to pornography fall into > several categories, though the research quality varies significantly > across different types of effects: > > Commonly Cited Harms > > Sexual Development and Behavior: > > Unrealistic expectations about sex, bodies, and sexual performance > Earlier initiation of sexual activity > Increased likelihood of engaging in risky sexual behaviors > Normalization of aggressive or violent sexual acts > Confusion about consent and healthy sexual relationships > > Psychological and Emotional Effects: > > Increased rates of depression and anxiety > Body image issues and self-esteem problems > Potential for developing compulsive sexual behaviors > Difficulty forming healthy intimate relationships > > Social and Relational Impact: > > Objectification of others, particularly women > Changed attitudes toward gender roles and relationships > Potential impact on academic performance and social functioning > > Research Quality and Limitations > > The evidence base has significant methodological challenges: > > Stronger Evidence Areas: > > Correlational studies consistently show associations between > pornography exposure and earlier sexual initiation, more sexual > partners, and riskier sexual behaviors > Research on attitudes shows fairly robust links to more accepting > views of sexual aggression and objectification > > Weaker Evidence Areas: > > Causation vs. correlation: Most studies are cross-sectional, making it > difficult to determine whether pornography exposure causes problems or > whether teens with existing issues are more likely to seek out > pornography > Long-term outcomes: Limited longitudinal research following > individuals over time > Dosage effects: Little research on whether different amounts or types > of exposure have different impacts > > Research Challenges: > > Ethical constraints limit experimental research with minors > Self-reporting biases in surveys about sensitive topics > Rapidly changing technology outpaces research > Difficulty controlling for other variables (family environment, peer > influences, etc.) > > The scientific consensus generally supports concern about pornography > exposure in minors, but researchers emphasize that more rigorous > longitudinal studies are needed to better understand causal > relationships and identify which young people may be most vulnerable > to negative effects. > > > Yes, well. > "Commonly-cited harms" means precisely nothing, except maybe that some people want there to be harms. Nevertheless, let's just accept that, and do a thought-experiment: > > If we stigmatised ball games to the same extent we stigmatise sex, then all these things could also be said about ball games, or sports in general (ask the AI to summarise the commonly cited harms of exposing minors to videogames, see if the results are much different). > > The problem is not sex and pornography, it's the way we react to it (which boils down to how we have been educated to react to it). > > Suppose that the abrahamic religions had decided that sports, instead of sex, was evil and had to be controlled by making people feel guilty about it: > > > ?The commonly cited harms of exposing minors to pornography depictions of sport fall into > > several categories, though the research quality varies significantly > > across different types of effects: > > > Commonly Cited Harms > > > Sporting Development and Behaviour: > > Unrealistic expectations about sports, bodies, and sporting performance > > Earlier initiation of sporting activity > > Increased likelihood of engaging in risky sporting behaviours > > Normalization of aggressive or violent sports acts > > Confusion about social norms around sports and healthy sporting relationships > > > Psychological and Emotional Effects: > > Increased rates of depression and anxiety > > Body image issues and self-esteem problems > > Potential for developing compulsive sports-related behaviours > > Difficulty forming healthy sporting relationships > > > Social and Relational Impact: > > Objectification of others, particularly other players > > Changed attitudes toward sporting roles and relationships > > Potential impact on academic performance and social functioning > > > Research Quality and Limitations > > The evidence base has significant methodological challenges: > > > Stronger Evidence Areas: > > Correlational studies consistently show associations between > > sports exposure and earlier adoptions of sports activities, more sporting > > partners, and riskier sports behaviors > > Research on attitudes shows fairly robust links to more accepting > > views of aggression in sport > > > Weaker Evidence Areas: > > Causation vs. correlation: Most studies are cross-sectional, making it > > difficult to determine whether sports exposure causes problems or > > whether teens with existing issues are more likely to seek out > > sports-related material > > Long-term outcomes: Limited longitudinal research following > > individuals over time > > Dosage effects: Little research on whether different amounts or types > > of exposure have different impacts > > > Research Challenges: > > Ethical constraints limit experimental research with minors > > Self-reporting biases in surveys about sensitive topics > > Rapidly changing technology outpaces research > > Difficulty controlling for other variables (family environment, peer > > influences, etc.) > > > The scientific consensus generally supports concern about sports > > exposure in minors, but researchers emphasize that more rigorous > > longitudinal studies are needed to better understand causal > > relationships and identify which young people may be most vulnerable > > to negative effects? > > > And, of course, we would see extensive censorship of media featuring sports, a rating system, pixellation of cricket and baseball bats, balls etc. (as well as concern amongst the ?guardians of morality? about any object that looks vaguely bat-or-ball-shaped) > > The problem is not sex, descriptions or depictions of sex, the problem is our reactions to these things. Learned reactions. Sex can be risky, of course. So can sports. Early exposure to sex/sport can affect people?s lives, leading them to different behaviours than if they hadn?t had this exposure. The same is true of music. And politics. And a host of other things that are seen as perfectly normal and natural. > > The answer is education, not restrictions. If you want someone to be a confident sportsman and well-balanced human being, you don?t prevent them from handling (or even seeing!) baseball bats, balls and protective gear, you don?t ?protect? them from sports programmes on the TV or the internet. If you want young boxers to keep safe, you don?t prevent them from accessing information about boxing, protective headgear, footage of people being repeatedly bashed about the head and the resultant brain trauma etc., until they turn a certain arbitrary, evenly-applied age. > > When I say education, I don?t mean lectures, I mean access to the relevant material, information and discussions, without restrictions, without age limits and without moralising. Nobody thinks this is a bad idea with regard to sports. Why should sex be any different? > > We are actively damaging society with all this stupid censorship. We all need to grow up. > > -- > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natashavita-more.com Fri Sep 5 20:14:14 2025 From: natasha at natashavita-more.com (Natasha natashavita-more.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 20:14:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Original Extropians email List and Extropy-Chat Archives Message-ID: Hello - In case anyone reads this, could you please help me locate the archives for both lists? I'd like to look over the posts for a paper that covers our early discussions about "Which Comes First? Nanotechnology vs. AI". This might not be the correct thread subject, but probably something close. I'd like to present this early discussion at the upcoming Beneficial AGI Summit. Thank you. Onward! Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 5 22:32:21 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 15:32:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <8a5c50a7-bcd6-4435-8fda-10d26d1fe1d1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <011d01dc1eb4$f213e950$d63bbbf0$@rainier66.com> ... > > On 02/09/2025 20:32, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but this - > specifically, the target of exposing minors to pornography - has been > studied, and while not all of the claims (by any stretch) were found > true, a nonzero amount did hold up. I asked an AI to summarize... Adrian, there is an important aspect to this that I seldom see mentioned: marketing. As pornography has become more freely available at all levels online, it is easy to see it has lost its efficacy as an element of advertising. Compare ads made in the 1950s and 1960s, particularly for products aimed at men. Soft core pornography everywhere, right at the edge of what societal taste would allow and endure, just everywhere in ads. So along comes the internet, porno is suddenly free, and in ever increasing quantities, for there is only one style of nekkid. Digital images never wear out, the content doesn't change. All this creates a new and difficult challenge for advertisers, for a quick look at 1960s ads for stuff like cigarettes and liquor now just can't insert the images, and cannot compete with free. So now... how are they to sell the tobacco and liquor. Such a crisis. Think of all the money going tragically unmade. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 02:25:04 2025 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 19:25:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Original Extropians email List and Extropy-Chat Archives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Natasha, Max has the archives. He gave me a copy a few years ago. They are not in a format that is easy to search. I can send you a copy if you like, Best wishes, Keith On Fri, Sep 5, 2025 at 1:15?PM Natasha natashavita-more.com via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hello - > > In case anyone reads this, could you please help me locate the archives for both lists? I'd like to look over the posts for a paper that covers our early discussions about "Which Comes First? Nanotechnology vs. AI". This might not be the correct thread subject, but probably something close. I'd like to present this early discussion at the upcoming Beneficial AGI Summit. > > Thank you. > > Onward! > > Natasha > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 05:59:39 2025 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 22:59:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Original Extropians email List and Extropy-Chat Archives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh I'm so glad you're doing this Natasha how many years have we been an extropian! Amazing Grace Thank you for doing Ilsa Bartlett Institute for Rewiring the System http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett www.hotlux.com/angel "Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person." -John Coltrane On Fri, Sep 5, 2025, 7:26?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Natasha, Max has the archives. He gave me a copy a few years ago. > They are not in a format that is easy to search. I can send you a > copy if you like, > > Best wishes, > > Keith > > On Fri, Sep 5, 2025 at 1:15?PM Natasha natashavita-more.com via > extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Hello - > > > > In case anyone reads this, could you please help me locate the archives > for both lists? I'd like to look over the posts for a paper that covers > our early discussions about "Which Comes First? Nanotechnology vs. AI". > This might not be the correct thread subject, but probably something > close. I'd like to present this early discussion at the upcoming > Beneficial AGI Summit. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Onward! > > > > Natasha > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose.cordeiro at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 19:03:37 2025 From: jose.cordeiro at gmail.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2025 19:03:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Invitation to be part of the first issue of the Liberty International Journal, dedicated to longevity! References: <2030004312.729198.1757185417360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2030004312.729198.1757185417360@mail.yahoo.com> Dear ExI friends, ? ? ?How are you doing? I am contacting you with a great opportunity to write in the launching edition of a new journal, with the first issue dedicated to longevity. I hope some of you are interested in participating, particularly for the first issue which is about the theme longevity, but welcome to later issues on different themes too. If interested to be part of this immortal opportunity, contact directly my friend Felipe, please:?felipe.munizaga at liberty-intl.org and?research at liberty-intl.org ? ? ?Thank you very much and you all are also very welcome to our immortal International Longevity Summit in beautiful Madrid. You can use my personal 20% discount code for both in person or online registration, so hope to see you soon lively or virtually from Madrid, please: CORDEIRO20??https://transvisionmadrid.com/es/#registroevento ? ? ?As my Trekky friends say: Live Long and Prosper? ? ? ?Futuristically yours, ? ? ?La vie est belle! Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD?(www.cordeiro.org)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Luis_Cordeiro Subject: Invitation to be part of our Liberty International Journal Dear Scholars, On behalf of the Liberty International Research Department, I am pleased to invite you to submit a collaboration for consideration in our upcoming academic publication, Liberty International Journal. This journal aims to showcase high-quality, liberty-oriented scholarship from diverse disciplines, including Austrian economics, neoclassical economics, and pro-liberty political philosophies?ranging from minarchism to anarcho-capitalism. Our February 2026 edition will focus on the theme of Longevity and Liberty. As the global conversation around health, freedom, and aging intensifies, this issue challenges scholars to rethink how libertarian values intersect with some of the most pressing issues of our time. From debates on healthcare access and technological innovation to the role of civil society in extending quality of life, we invite submissions that explore how liberty not only leads to longer lives but also to freer, more dignified ones. Possible Research Questions: - How do free-market policies impact public health, healthcare systems, and aging populations? - What role do innovation, entrepreneurship, and civil society play in fostering longevity? - How do government monopolies in healthcare and retirement systems discourage investment in longevity science? We are excited to welcome research that delves into these questions, proposing market-driven, innovative solutions to contemporary health challenges, and exploring the intersection of freedom and the improvement of life outcomes. Submission Guidelines: - Accepted Formats: - Research Articles/Papers: 6,000?10,000 words - Essays/Theoretical Reflections: 3,000?6,000 words - Policy Briefs / Case Studies: 2,000?5,000 words - Book Reviews: 1,000?2,000 words - Review Process: All submissions undergo double-blind peer review to maintain academic integrity and fairness. - Citation Style: APA 7 Manual of Style - Deadline: Abstract submissions are due by September 30, 2025, and final submissions by October 31, 2025. To submit your collaboration (Papers, essays, policy briefs/case studies and book reviews), please use the following link, and complete the submission form. If you are interested in participating, we would be honored to feature your work in this exciting inaugural issue of Liberty International Journal. Should you have any questions or require further information, please don?t hesitate to reach out to me directly at research at liberty-intl.org. I look forward to hearing from you and sincerely hope you will consider submitting a paper for this timely and important theme. Warm regards, Felipe Munizaga Research Department Liberty International -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Sep 7 06:04:37 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2025 07:04:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> On 06/09/2025 07:07, Adrian Tymes wrote: > The analogy to sports doesn't hold up. Maybe the analogy is a little strained, but that doesn't invalidate my point. We focus on the wrong thing, and censorship creates more problems than it solves (if it can be said to solve any problems at all, which I doubt). If you take the fairly recent example of a teacher in the US declaring the statue of David to be obscene and deciding that children shouldn't be able to see it, you can see clearly where the problem lies. Age verification on the internet is an extension of that kind of stupidity. -- Ben From avant at sollegro.com Sun Sep 7 16:01:33 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2025 09:01:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Brain Rot Message-ID: <276f0401c70e061fa7c2d91ee3e7b837@sollegro.com> Any adult who spends time around 12 year old kids or watches Tic Tok will realize that the meme "6-7" started by this video that has gone viral and millions upon millions of children are saying this often accompanied by the hand-motions every day. My efforts to trace the origins of this meme led me to a rap song titled "Doot Doot" by an artist named Skrilla. The lyrics reference 6-7 twice: --------------------------------------------- Yeah, it's Skrilla, yeah, it's Skrilla Yeah, it's Skrilla, yeah, it's Skrilla Yeah, it's me Shades on, I'm Boul Wit Da Glasses Bro say er 'cause he a savage So many dead opps, so many ashes (brrt) You ain't catch that, I can't pass this (come here) Shooter stay strapped, I don't need mine Bro put belt right to they behind The way that switch brrt, I know he dyin' (oh my, oh my God) 6-7, I just bipped right on the highway (bip, bip) Skrrt, uh (bip, bip, bip) I just bipped right on the highway Trackhawk, mh, sittin' in the driveway (skrrt) Uh, pull up, doot-doot, doo-doo-doo Doot, doo-doo, doo-doo, doot Dump truck, baby shark, doot, doo-doo-doo I popped the Perc' and popped the blue I geek-geek like a custy too Say it in rap, bro, we can smack out (huh?) Pull up clean in my white tee, rollin' off a honey too (huh?) Diamonds VV, straight from Lex And I got a custom pendant waitin', wait 'til when you see that, ooh Pull up back to back, matte black Track', I just bipped it, nyoom (back to back) Throw some D's up on that bitch like Rich Boy Hurricane, hey, bay-bay-bay-bay Hurricane my Chris boy (hey-bay-bay) Maison Margiel', I'm forever gon' drip, boy (hey-bay-bay) Send my shooter on a hit, boy (brrt) I'll middle-man a whole body (frr) Straight thuggin', free Blick, fightin' triple homi' (frr) Take a four, so I just yack I think 12 inside a Scat Swapped the VIN and got it wrapped (huh?) Bitch, we bippin' overnight (yeah) Shades on, I'm Boul Wit Da Glasses (yeah) Bro say er 'cause he a savage (yeah) So many dead opps, so many ashes (yeah) You ain't catch that, I can't pass this Shooter stay strapped, I don't need mine Bro put belt right to they behind (come here) The way that switch brrt, I know he dyin' (get him) 6-7, I just bipped right on the highway (damn) Skrrt, uh (oh my God) I just bipped right on the highway Trackhawk, mm, sittin' in the driveway Yeah, pull up, doot-doot, doo-doo-doo (oh my, oh my God) ----------------------------------- The problem however is that unless you are very good with Generation Alpha street slang, the lyrics are near impenetrable. So I decided to enlist the aid of Google's Gemini AI to help me understand the lyrics. It actually did a surprisingly good job. Translate the rap song "Doot Doot" by Skrilla into standard English: ---------------------------------------- This song, like a lot of rap, uses slang and coded language to tell a story. Here's a breakdown of what the lyrics mean in standard English. "Yeah, it's Skrilla, yeah, it's Skrilla / Yeah, it's me" The artist is introducing himself, asserting his presence and identity. "Shades on, I'm Boul Wit Da Glasses" He's wearing sunglasses and referring to himself as a tough guy ("boul" or "boul wit da glasses"). "Bro say er 'cause he a savage" His friend (bro) is saying "errr" which is a vocal sound often made to express anger or an intimidating attitude. "So many dead opps, so many ashes (brrt)" He's talking about his many rivals ("opps" or opponents) who have been killed. The sound "brrt" imitates an automatic firearm. "You ain't catch that, I can't pass this (come here)" He's saying that if you don't understand his actions or threats, he's not going to explain it to you. The "come here" is a challenge. "Shooter stay strapped, I don't need mine" His friend, the "shooter," is always carrying a gun ("strapped"), so he doesn't need to carry his own. "Bro put belt right to they behind" This is a metaphor for his friend disciplining or punishing someone. "The way that switch brrt, I know he dyin' (oh my, oh my God)" The "switch" is a device that can be attached to a handgun to make it fire like an automatic weapon. The sound "brrt" is the gun firing, and the "oh my God" expresses the severity of the violence. "6-7, I just bipped right on the highway (bip, bip)" He's referring to Interstate 676 in Philadelphia. "Bipped" means to take or steal something, in this case, a vehicle, and drive it away quickly. "Trackhawk, mm, sittin' in the driveway" A Trackhawk is a high-performance SUV. He's showing off a stolen or acquired vehicle. "Uh, pull up, doot-doot, doo-doo-doo" This is a lyrical imitation of gunshots. "Dump truck, baby shark, doot, doo-doo-doo" "Dump truck" is slang for a large-capacity firearm magazine. The "baby shark" is a playful contrast to the serious nature of the violent threat, and "doot, doo-doo-doo" is a continued imitation of gunshots. "I popped the Perc' and popped the blue" He's saying that he has taken drugs, specifically a Percocet and another blue-colored pill, likely a Xanax. "I geek-geek like a custy too" He is acting excited and high, like a customer (a "custy") who has just acquired and used drugs. "Say it in rap, bro, we can smack out" He's saying that if someone talks tough in a rap song, he's ready to fight ("smack out"). "Pull up clean in my white tee, rollin' off a honey too" He is arriving in a clean white T-shirt and is under the influence of drugs, as "honey" can be slang for certain substances. "Diamonds VV, straight from Lex" His diamonds are a very high quality ("VV" stands for VVS, a diamond clarity grade) and were purchased from a jeweler named Lex. "Throw some D's up on that bitch like Rich Boy" This is a reference to the song "Throw Some D's" by Rich Boy. "D's" refers to spinning rims on a car. He's saying he's going to put expensive rims on a vehicle. "Hurricane, hey, bay-bay-bay-bay / Hurricane my Chris boy" "Hurricane" is likely the nickname of his associate "Chris." "Maison Margiel', I'm forever gon' drip, boy" He's wearing clothes from the luxury fashion brand Maison Margiela. "Drip" is slang for a fashionable and cool outfit. "Send my shooter on a hit, boy" He's saying he will send his friend to go kill someone. "I'll middle-man a whole body (frr)" He's stating that he can arrange for a person to be killed, acting as a "middle man." "Straight thuggin', free Blick, fightin' triple homi' (frr)" He is talking about a friend named "Blick" who is in jail and has been accused of three counts of murder ("triple homi'"). "Take a four, so I just yack" He's consumed a large amount of a drug ("four" refers to four ounces of lean or another substance) and is now throwing up ("yack"). "I think 12 inside a Scat / Swapped the VIN and got it wrapped (huh?)" He's talking about the police ("12") in a Scat Pack, which is a type of Dodge Challenger or Charger. He's also saying that he has swapped the car's Vehicle Identification Number ("VIN") and had the car's exterior changed ("wrapped") to avoid being identified by the police. "Bitch, we bippin' overnight (yeah)" He says that he and his friends are stealing cars all night long. ------------------------------------- So the upshot of all this is that the 6-7 meme is in reference to Interstate 676 in Philadelphia and is triggered every time the sequence of numbers 6-7 coincidentally come up in the course of a 12 year old's life. I also find it comforting that Generation Alpha and AI will be able to understand and relate to one another in the upcoming decades. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 7 17:04:15 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2025 10:04:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> References: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide On 06/09/2025 07:07, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>... The analogy to sports doesn't hold up. >... Age verification on the internet is an extension of that kind of stupidity. -- Ben _______________________________________________ Hi Ben, ja. I will skip past the risk that we introduced an existential crisis to our species by our collective internet de-emphasizing standard family models, introducing not just the threat of actual literal extinction of our species, that is bad thing of course. But we have worn out sex as a sales tool, one that has worked for so long and so well. Mercy. Second pointless aside: imagine...what if... you were the model for Michelangelo 's David. I would be so damn insulted! He carved what he actually saw! Wouldn'ta cost Mr. Angelo a damn thing to carve me a little favor down there for the ages. He had enough marble there to start with in order to create a kindhearted lie. Now tourists will be parading by for centuries, making fun. Cruel-ass artist he is. Harrumph. Ben I agree with your notion. I have been hanging around on the internet most of my adult life, since its pre-1990s text versions. This sudden age verification jazz is the biggest new and worrisome change since HTML changed everything, then in 1999 when Google exploded on the scene. This all has me wondering if that age verification notion will be sufficient to revive the struggling old-fashioned porn-on-DVD business model. And if so, how one must navigate the more difficult question of where and how to invest, to most effectively make a cubic buttload off of it. Difficult questions for our times are these. In the meantime, one parting shot with a modicum of actual non-silliness: this age verification business is something in which I have so-far flatly refused to participate for privacy reasons, at the expense of my favorite old entertainment sites, such as... em... the historic digital archived National Geographics. Hey, it's all we had back in the 60s, and we only had the paper editions, in the actual library. We suffered, but we made do. Until the librarians caught us and started blacking out the photos with electrical tape, which won't come off those glossy pages. But... it is easy enough to imagine if this hasn't already happened: these internet porn protective measures might quietly filter away or forbid access to medical information. Think about that please. spike From avant at sollegro.com Sun Sep 7 17:22:42 2025 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2025 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Brain Rot In-Reply-To: <276f0401c70e061fa7c2d91ee3e7b837@sollegro.com> References: <276f0401c70e061fa7c2d91ee3e7b837@sollegro.com> Message-ID: Lol. I forgot to post the link to the video: https://www.tiktok.com/@.mrnobodyfr/video/7546986777655954710 The blond kid is a currently one of the most famous people on the planet due to this video. If you can understand and harness why this is so, then you could be a viral-marketing genius. Stuart LaForge On 2025-09-07 09:01, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > Any adult who spends time around 12 year old kids or watches Tic Tok > will realize that the meme "6-7" started by this video that has gone > viral and millions upon millions of children are saying this often > accompanied by the hand-motions every day. My efforts to trace the > origins of this meme led me to a rap song titled "Doot Doot" by an > artist named Skrilla. The lyrics reference 6-7 twice: > --------------------------------------------- > Yeah, it's Skrilla, yeah, it's Skrilla > Yeah, it's Skrilla, yeah, it's Skrilla > Yeah, it's me > Shades on, I'm Boul Wit Da Glasses > Bro say er 'cause he a savage > So many dead opps, so many ashes (brrt) > You ain't catch that, I can't pass this (come here) > Shooter stay strapped, I don't need mine > Bro put belt right to they behind > The way that switch brrt, I know he dyin' (oh my, oh my God) > 6-7, I just bipped right on the highway (bip, bip) > Skrrt, uh (bip, bip, bip) > I just bipped right on the highway > Trackhawk, mh, sittin' in the driveway (skrrt) > Uh, pull up, doot-doot, doo-doo-doo > Doot, doo-doo, doo-doo, doot > Dump truck, baby shark, doot, doo-doo-doo > I popped the Perc' and popped the blue > I geek-geek like a custy too > Say it in rap, bro, we can smack out (huh?) > Pull up clean in my white tee, rollin' off a honey too (huh?) > Diamonds VV, straight from Lex > And I got a custom pendant waitin', wait 'til when you see that, ooh > Pull up back to back, matte black Track', I just bipped it, nyoom (back > to back) > Throw some D's up on that bitch like Rich Boy > Hurricane, hey, bay-bay-bay-bay > Hurricane my Chris boy (hey-bay-bay) > Maison Margiel', I'm forever gon' drip, boy (hey-bay-bay) > Send my shooter on a hit, boy (brrt) > I'll middle-man a whole body (frr) > Straight thuggin', free Blick, fightin' triple homi' (frr) > Take a four, so I just yack > I think 12 inside a Scat > Swapped the VIN and got it wrapped (huh?) > Bitch, we bippin' overnight (yeah) > Shades on, I'm Boul Wit Da Glasses (yeah) > Bro say er 'cause he a savage (yeah) > So many dead opps, so many ashes (yeah) > You ain't catch that, I can't pass this > Shooter stay strapped, I don't need mine > Bro put belt right to they behind (come here) > The way that switch brrt, I know he dyin' (get him) > 6-7, I just bipped right on the highway (damn) > Skrrt, uh (oh my God) > I just bipped right on the highway > Trackhawk, mm, sittin' in the driveway > Yeah, pull up, doot-doot, doo-doo-doo (oh my, oh my God) > ----------------------------------- > > The problem however is that unless you are very good with Generation > Alpha street slang, the lyrics are near impenetrable. So I decided to > enlist the aid of Google's Gemini AI to help me understand the lyrics. > It actually did a surprisingly good job. > > Translate the rap song "Doot Doot" by Skrilla into standard English: > > ---------------------------------------- > This song, like a lot of rap, uses slang and coded language to tell a > story. Here's a breakdown of what the lyrics mean in standard English. > > "Yeah, it's Skrilla, yeah, it's Skrilla / Yeah, it's me" > The artist is introducing himself, asserting his presence and identity. > > "Shades on, I'm Boul Wit Da Glasses" > He's wearing sunglasses and referring to himself as a tough guy ("boul" > or "boul wit da glasses"). > > "Bro say er 'cause he a savage" > His friend (bro) is saying "errr" which is a vocal sound often made to > express anger or an intimidating attitude. > > "So many dead opps, so many ashes (brrt)" > He's talking about his many rivals ("opps" or opponents) who have been > killed. The sound "brrt" imitates an automatic firearm. > > "You ain't catch that, I can't pass this (come here)" > He's saying that if you don't understand his actions or threats, he's > not going to explain it to you. The "come here" is a challenge. > > "Shooter stay strapped, I don't need mine" > His friend, the "shooter," is always carrying a gun ("strapped"), so he > doesn't need to carry his own. > > "Bro put belt right to they behind" > This is a metaphor for his friend disciplining or punishing someone. > > "The way that switch brrt, I know he dyin' (oh my, oh my God)" > The "switch" is a device that can be attached to a handgun to make it > fire like an automatic weapon. The sound "brrt" is the gun firing, and > the "oh my God" expresses the severity of the violence. > > "6-7, I just bipped right on the highway (bip, bip)" > He's referring to Interstate 676 in Philadelphia. "Bipped" means to > take or steal something, in this case, a vehicle, and drive it away > quickly. > > "Trackhawk, mm, sittin' in the driveway" > A Trackhawk is a high-performance SUV. He's showing off a stolen or > acquired vehicle. > > "Uh, pull up, doot-doot, doo-doo-doo" > This is a lyrical imitation of gunshots. > > "Dump truck, baby shark, doot, doo-doo-doo" > "Dump truck" is slang for a large-capacity firearm magazine. The "baby > shark" is a playful contrast to the serious nature of the violent > threat, and "doot, doo-doo-doo" is a continued imitation of gunshots. > > "I popped the Perc' and popped the blue" > He's saying that he has taken drugs, specifically a Percocet and > another blue-colored pill, likely a Xanax. > > "I geek-geek like a custy too" > He is acting excited and high, like a customer (a "custy") who has just > acquired and used drugs. > > "Say it in rap, bro, we can smack out" > He's saying that if someone talks tough in a rap song, he's ready to > fight ("smack out"). > > "Pull up clean in my white tee, rollin' off a honey too" > He is arriving in a clean white T-shirt and is under the influence of > drugs, as "honey" can be slang for certain substances. > > "Diamonds VV, straight from Lex" > His diamonds are a very high quality ("VV" stands for VVS, a diamond > clarity grade) and were purchased from a jeweler named Lex. > > "Throw some D's up on that bitch like Rich Boy" > This is a reference to the song "Throw Some D's" by Rich Boy. "D's" > refers to spinning rims on a car. He's saying he's going to put > expensive rims on a vehicle. > > "Hurricane, hey, bay-bay-bay-bay / Hurricane my Chris boy" > "Hurricane" is likely the nickname of his associate "Chris." > > "Maison Margiel', I'm forever gon' drip, boy" > He's wearing clothes from the luxury fashion brand Maison Margiela. > "Drip" is slang for a fashionable and cool outfit. > > "Send my shooter on a hit, boy" > He's saying he will send his friend to go kill someone. > > "I'll middle-man a whole body (frr)" > He's stating that he can arrange for a person to be killed, acting as a > "middle man." > > "Straight thuggin', free Blick, fightin' triple homi' (frr)" > He is talking about a friend named "Blick" who is in jail and has been > accused of three counts of murder ("triple homi'"). > > "Take a four, so I just yack" > He's consumed a large amount of a drug ("four" refers to four ounces of > lean or another substance) and is now throwing up ("yack"). > > "I think 12 inside a Scat / Swapped the VIN and got it wrapped (huh?)" > He's talking about the police ("12") in a Scat Pack, which is a type of > Dodge Challenger or Charger. He's also saying that he has swapped the > car's Vehicle Identification Number ("VIN") and had the car's exterior > changed ("wrapped") to avoid being identified by the police. > > "Bitch, we bippin' overnight (yeah)" > He says that he and his friends are stealing cars all night long. > > ------------------------------------- > > So the upshot of all this is that the 6-7 meme is in reference to > Interstate 676 in Philadelphia and is triggered every time the sequence > of numbers 6-7 coincidentally come up in the course of a 12 year old's > life. I also find it comforting that Generation Alpha and AI will be > able to understand and relate to one another in the upcoming decades. > > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:51:00 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2025 20:51:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> References: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Sept 2025 at 18:07, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > < snip > > > But... it is easy enough to imagine if this hasn't already happened: these > internet porn protective measures might quietly filter away or forbid access > to medical information. Think about that please. > > spike > _______________________________________________ At present, the age verification laws vary widely from country to country, even state to state. But, yes, of course, the age verification will get worse! It started as a 'We must protect the children from porn' campaign. The scope has already increased to anything that could possibly harm a minor. Such as sites containing potentially harmful content like self-harm, bullying, or mature/adult material, or adult sites like gambling, selling alcohol or drugs. "Potentially harmful" will soon apply to almost every website. Why are our rulers supporting this escalation? Because the three-letter agencies want to prevent people from being anonymous on the internet. Age verification is the online version of "Papers, please!". BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Sep 7 20:21:45 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2025 21:21:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> References: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0b4fee07-358c-4681-880c-d82e94959611@zaiboc.net> On 07/09/2025 18:04, spike at rainier66.com wrote: > > > But... it is easy enough to imagine if this hasn't already happened: these > internet porn protective measures might quietly filter away or forbid access > to medical information. Think about that please. > > spike Indeed. As I said before, we are actively damaging society with all this. That's just one example that you've given. There will be many others. -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 11:06:39 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 12:06:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Interesting review of the Big Bang Theory creation of our Universe Message-ID: 10 incredible facts about the Big Bang Theory It?s the origin of our entire observable Universe, but it?s still not the very beginning of everything. By Ethan Siegel ? September 11, 2025 Quote: The Big Bang was a simple idea that goes back all the way to the 1920s: that the Universe is expanding and cooling now, and therefore, was hotter and denser in the past. Having made a series of successful predictions that no other theory can match, it?s widely accepted as the origin story for our Universe. But the Big Bang is so much more than that, and yet simultaneously isn?t the very beginning of everything any longer. Dive into these 10 facts you may not know about the Big Bang! ------------------------ BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 11:49:24 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 12:49:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI Startup Flock Thinks It Can Eliminate All Crime In America Message-ID: AI Startup Flock Thinks It Can Eliminate All Crime In America ByThomas Brewster, Forbes Staff. Sep 03, 2025, Updated Sep 5, 2025 < https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2025/09/03/ai-startup-flock-thinks-it-can-eliminate-all-crime-in-america/ > Quotes: With more than 80,000 AI-powered cameras across the U.S., Flock Safety has become one of cops? go-to surveillance tools and a $7.5 billion business. Now CEO Garrett Langley has both police tech giant Axon and Chinese drone maker DJI in his sights on the way to his noble (if Sisyphean) goal: Preventing all crime in the U.S. Langley estimates its cameras help solve 1 million crimes a year. Soon they?ll help solve even more. In August, Flock?s cameras will take to the skies mounted on its own ?made in Amer?ica? drones. Langley offers a prediction: In less than 10 years, Flock?s cameras, airborne and fixed, will eradicate almost all crime in the U.S. Not everyone shares law enforcement?s enthusiasm for Flock?s rapid expansion. Privacy advocates say the company is building an unprecedented mass-surveillance dystopia. -------------------- Wow! I thought the UK was the worst for camera surveillance everywhere, but it seems the USA intends to be the leader! China will be jealous. BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 13:03:36 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 09:03:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI Startup Flock Thinks It Can Eliminate All Crime In America In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about those crimes committed by the government and/or powerful, where even being clearly recorded on video does not result in the law being enforced? "Yeah, so our people beat that person up for being (black/brown/female/non-Christian/a member of some opposition political party). So what?" On Thu, Sep 11, 2025 at 7:51?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > AI Startup Flock Thinks It Can Eliminate All Crime In America > ByThomas Brewster, Forbes Staff. > Sep 03, 2025, Updated Sep 5, 2025 > > > Quotes: > With more than 80,000 AI-powered cameras across the U.S., Flock Safety has become one of cops? go-to surveillance tools and a $7.5 billion business. Now CEO Garrett Langley has both police tech giant Axon and Chinese drone maker DJI in his sights on the way to his noble (if Sisyphean) goal: Preventing all crime in the U.S. > Langley estimates its cameras help solve 1 million crimes a year. Soon they?ll help solve even more. In August, Flock?s cameras will take to the skies mounted on its own ?made in Amer?ica? drones. > Langley offers a prediction: In less than 10 years, Flock?s cameras, airborne and fixed, will eradicate almost all crime in the U.S. > > Not everyone shares law enforcement?s enthusiasm for Flock?s rapid expansion. Privacy advocates say the company is building an unprecedented mass-surveillance dystopia. > -------------------- > > Wow! I thought the UK was the worst for camera surveillance everywhere, but it seems the USA intends to be the leader! > China will be jealous. > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 13:51:20 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 14:51:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?AI_doomerism_isn=E2=80=99t_new=2E_Meet_the_origi?= =?utf-8?q?nal_alarmist=3A_Norbert_Wiener=2E?= Message-ID: AI doomerism isn?t new. Meet the original alarmist: Norbert Wiener He warned that AI could lead to humanity's destruction decades before Geoffrey Hinton and Eliezer Yudkowsky began sounding the alarm. MIT Archives / Wikimedia Commons Norbert Wiener By Louis Anslow September 11, 2025 Quotes: Long before Geoffrey Hinton and Eliezer Yudkowsky sounded warnings about artificial intelligence, there was Dr. Norbert Wiener in the 1950s and ?60s. Wiener was a pioneer in the field of artificial intelligence or, as he called it, cybernetics. His groundbreaking work laid the foundations that our current AI boom is built atop of, and his concerns about AI have no doubt influenced those being voiced by his successors in the field today. In the second draft, Wiener would cite old fables, such as genies in bottles, that he said contained a powerful lesson: If we have the power to realize our wishes, ?we are more likely to use it wrongly than to use it rightly, more likely to use it stupidly than to use it intelligently.? His prediction, one familiar in the current dialog around AI: ?The machines will do what we ask them to do and not what we ought to ask them to do.? ------------------- BillK From postmowoods at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 05:05:41 2025 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 23:05:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT bias Message-ID: So here's a little chat: what did charlie kirk say about mass shootings involving transgenders ChatGPT said: Here?s what Charlie Kirk said immediately before the mass shooting that tragically claimed his life: During a Q&A at Utah Valley University on September 10, 2025, a student asked him: ?Do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years?? Kirk replied: ?Too many.? Then, when prompted about the total number of mass shooters over the past decade, he responded: ?Counting or not counting gang violence?? Al Jazeera+3The Daily Beast+3AP News+3 ________________________________ What does that mean? ?Too many? ? This statement is not factually supported. According to the Gun Violence Archive, only about 0.11% of mass shootings in the past decade involved transgender individuals The Daily Beast. His follow-up comment about counting gang violence seemed to shift into a broader question of definitions, rather than addressing the student?s original focus. ________________________________ In summary: Question: ?How many mass shooters have been transgender in the last 10 years?? Charlie Kirk?s answer: ?Too many.? Context note: That figure is inaccurate, and represents a disproportionate exaggeration compared to verified data. Let me know if you want to dig into broader public reactions or fact-check how often such claims appear in political rhetoric. =================== Notice how ChatGPT goes immediately to fact checking the victim. Shows that AI currently doesn't have much empathy for the right wing. An MSNBC contributor was fired for saying something much less biased than this.. -Kelly From postmowoods at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 05:10:58 2025 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 23:10:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> References: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 7, 2025 at 11:04?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Second pointless aside: imagine...what if... you were the model for > Michelangelo 's David. I would be so damn insulted! He carved what he > actually saw! Wouldn'ta cost Mr. Angelo a damn thing to carve me a little > favor down there for the ages. He had enough marble there to start with in > order to create a kindhearted lie. Now tourists will be parading by for > centuries, making fun. Cruel-ass artist he is. Harrumph. Spike, I know you are probably enough of a history buff to know this, but just in case someone else isn't... and doesn't get the joke, the Greeks and Romans saw a large phallus as vulgar and unattractive. So, by those standards, David's junk is just gorgeous. Since Michelangelo was copying the realistic style of the Greeks and Romans and not the weird shit the Egyptians did, this was a very reasonable and valid choice. -Kelly From postmowoods at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 05:33:00 2025 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 23:33:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 1, 2025 at 3:34?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > And nowhere have I seen any serious attempts to find out if pornography > (which seems to be the main target) is actually harmful to, well, > anybody really. Even raising the question is probably liable to get you > shut down, now. Let me begin by saying I know far too much about porn and the porn industry. If anyone is curious DM me. Most of the porn sites, and Pornhub in particular, do not object to age verification of their clients per se. So whether or not porn is harmful to minors isn't the hill they are choosing to die on. Rather, they object to having to do age verification on each and every site individually. This creates barriers to entry for adults to their content. What they are advocating for is age verification by machine or login account. That way, you verify your age once, and it carries forward to every adult site (whether porn or not) and it is a much smoother method that doesn't have so much privacy violation for the browsing public. I think their point is that age verification on a per site basis makes it more likely their customers will be targeted by scammers, and thus reduces the number of people partaking in their product due to unrelated safety issues. Some sites claim that their customer base will be reduced by 90% due to this. And that does seem to be the ACTUAL intent of those passing the laws. They can't win a fair fight on free speech, so they have to resort to playing dirty to get their puritanical agenda through. As a matter of fact, the Project 2025 manual calls for outright banning porn. Not sure how they think they are going to do that, but with the current Supreme Court, they have a chance. Nobody in the porn industry even attempts to make the case that some porn isn't harmful to children. Certainly there are individuals in the industry who have varying opinions about it, but porn covers a vast spectrum and it would be VERY hard to say that the worst of it wouldn't damage minor's view of sexuality and their mental health. I've seen a few things I wish I hadn't seen, and I'm a fan and promoter of most of it for adults. And porn of children is something virtually NOBODY supports publicly. Sick bastards. Of course a child of 17 years 11 months and 29 days is only a couple days from being an "adult", and that's simply ridiculous. -Kelly From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 12 05:41:35 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 22:41:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <6e535711-90bb-4f68-8bc5-93c2220722b7@zaiboc.net> <008e01dc2019$7185fd30$5491f790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01e601dc23a7$e729a910$b57cfb30$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Internet age verification spreads worldwide On Sun, Sep 7, 2025 at 11:04?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Second pointless aside: imagine...what if... you were the model for > Michelangelo 's David. I would be so damn insulted! He carved what > he actually saw! Wouldn'ta cost Mr. Angelo a damn thing to carve me a > little favor down there for the ages. He had enough marble there to > start with in order to create a kindhearted lie. Now tourists will be > parading by for centuries, making fun. Cruel-ass artist he is. Harrumph. Spike, I know you are probably enough of a history buff to know this, but just in case someone else isn't... and doesn't get the joke, the Greeks and Romans saw a large phallus as vulgar and unattractive. So, by those standards, David's junk is just gorgeous. Since Michelangelo was copying the realistic style of the Greeks and Romans and not the weird shit the Egyptians did, this was a very reasonable and valid choice. -Kelly _______________________________________________ Kelly! Those Greeks and Romans were just SICK, I tells ya! No way it can improve a man's view of himself to see what that bastard Angelo did, to keep chipping away when he coulda stopped last week to better effect. I woulda told him Mike, that is just CRUEL, I don't care what we Greeks and Romans thought. This is ITALY fer cryin out loud, and OF COURSE size matters! Now Mr. Angelo mighta come up with some flimsy side-stepping excuse, such as No David, I didn't use YOU as a model for that... em... part. I got a mirror, I used myself! When you think about the actual MECHANICS of chipping marble while viewing the subject in a mirror, well, one would think it is hard to hold still and carve simultaneously. Perhaps this further establishes old Michael Angelo as one of history's greatest artists. Kelly just because we face possible species-wide doom from our own AI monster doesn't mean we can't have a little fun on the way out the evolutionary door. And just think: what AI could ever come up with a commentary like silliness that above? Nevah gonna happen! spike From postmowoods at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 06:10:57 2025 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 00:10:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Responding to the whole thread here by sharing two very personal stories... Back in the days before the great Haitian earthquake and the subsequent rape of the nation by the Clintons and associates, when some good things could be made to happen there, I went over for a week to help build an orphanage. The project was run by native Hatians, so it was about as good a project as you probably could realistically manage. Haiti is essentially a small bit of Africa plopped into the Caribbean, so it seems relevant. Anyway, the very first thing we did was to build a tall strong cinder block fence topped with broken glass to keep the local children from coming and stealing all the food from the orphans. We knew it wouldn't keep resolved adults out. I thought it was a pretty bad use of resources to do this first... because I was young, naive and American. But I didn't fight it, I just joined the circus and built the wall. It got done in the week we were there, only because in the end we hired some Hatians that knew how to do the work... silly Americans. Because I had extra space in my suitcase and budget, I brought a little $700 device that you could pump maybe 10,000 gallons of sewage or rain water through and produce lovely clean drinking water. The local people running the orphanage saw that this was the equivalent of gold, and so they locked it in a closet and never used it to produce clean water for any of the children. I had proposed that they would reduce the chance of theft by also giving clean water to the neighbors, but that didn't happen either. Anyway, eventually, someone, probably a worker at the orphanage, stole the thing and likely sold it to some rich bastard who's had clean water for the last 23 years. The money did NOT go to the orphanage. So that was my first endeavor in International charity. The main thing it did was educate me on just how fucked up much of the third world is. I'd spent a year in Brazil earlier, and it was NOTHING compared to Haiti. ================================ Story 2 About 20 years ago, I was contacted by a young man in Uganda. Uganda is landlocked, malaria infested and run by a despicable dictator, so they really have no chance there. Anyway, this young fellow James, who was 16 at the time, had the brilliant idea to sweep the floor of the local Internet cafe all day in exchange for 15 minutes of online time. Somehow he found me in one of his 15 minute slots, and asked me simply to help him attend school. Of course, I initially thought it was a scam, so I contacted the school, found it was likely legit and sent money directly to the school. No way was I sending a 16 year old starving kid money. He attended and graduated a few years later as their top student. I became friends with the people who ran the school for a while too. Contrary to what Unicef says, you cannot feed and school kids for pennies a day in a place like Uganda, so this entire endeavor was kind of expensive. Once he graduated, he did a few programming things, and got all entrepreneurial and such. Eventually, he created a company for sending money around the world. Also, he opened a Bitcoin exchange, the first in Kampala, and educated many of the government elites about Bitcoin, including the finance minister of the whole country. While it all ended pretty badly, at one point I actually did make a little money myself off the Bitcoin exchange... I am still helping James. He married and had 4 children, 3 surviving (another sad story). He named his oldest son Kelly, which I thought was pretty nice. He's taught the children enough English that I can talk to them now. While this whole thing was a bit inefficient compared to the NGOs who try to industrialize all of this, it worked for him and for me, and I consider him my son, adopted over the Internet. His dream is to come live in the USA... because he recognizes that Uganda sucks. Right now, he can't find a job, so I'm paying him to volunteer at a local school. They are benefitting from his involvement quite a bit, and that's good enough for me at the moment. The power to change the world, one person at a time, I truly believe is in the hands of every person. NGOs are often stupid and/or corrupt, but they aren't the only way to make a real difference. -Kelly From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 10:54:55 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 11:54:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI controlled weapons now being used in Ukraine Message-ID: Terminators: AI-driven robot war machines on the march Science fiction? Battle bots already used in Ukraine. Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols Fri 12 Sep 2025 Quotes: So Ukraine has been working hard on the next logical step of drone warfare: AI-driven drones. Israel has also been pushing forward with a variety of AI-driven war machines such as the Harpy and Harop, loitering munitions; and the six-wheeled RoBattle. The US has also been retrofitting its MQ-9 Reaper and XQ-58 Valkyrie drones with AI, while the experimental Longshot comes with AI built-in. These systems are under human control. We set their missions, we tell them what their parameters are. But they won't stay that way. Just like everything else AI, we want the AI to do the work, while we just give the chatbot general goals. We don't want to worry about the details. That's a mistake, whether you're just trying to vibe your way to being a 10x programmer or get a robot to shoot an enemy. I wish this were still science fiction. I want to believe that, like Matthew Broderick in War Games, we could convince AI not to automate its human parents' worst impulses. Instead, I'm sure we'll soon see AI drones and armed robots killing innocents. After all, we do. ------------------------------- That's the problem with training AI on human knowledge and history. The AI will include the best and the worst of humanity. Humanity doesn't want AI that behaves like angels - they want AI that follows orders, regardless of the consequences. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 12 11:40:12 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 04:40:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01dc23da$009f12e0$01dd38a0$@rainier66.com> Kelly you are a more interesting person than we knew, by about pi orders of magnitude. A missionary who expresses no particular detectable religion, who is simultaneously a subject matter expert on porno of all things, with a sense of humor, who has adopted African children and has experience in Haiti, sheesh what a combination. Never met another even distantly similar. We are glad you are here, me lad. Keep being you, sir. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, 11 September, 2025 11:11 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Kelly Anderson Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc Responding to the whole thread here by sharing two very personal stories... Back in the days before the great Haitian earthquake and the subsequent rape of the nation by the Clintons and associates, when some good things could be made to happen there, I went over for a week to help build an orphanage. ... The power to change the world, one person at a time, I truly believe is in the hands of every person. NGOs are often stupid and/or corrupt, but they aren't the only way to make a real difference. -Kelly _______________________________________________ From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 15:47:47 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 16:47:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI controlled weapons now being used in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Sept 2025 at 11:54, BillK wrote: > Terminators: AI-driven robot war machines on the march > Science fiction? Battle bots already used in Ukraine. > Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols Fri 12 Sep 2025 > > < > https://www.theregister.com/2025/09/12/terminators_aidriven_robot_war_machines/ > > > ------------------------------ I asked CHATGPT-5 to explain more about the dangers of AI-controlled weapons. The answer was rather frightening. BillK CHATGPT-5: Alright, let?s slow it down and walk through both sets of risks ? the ones *The Register* article explicitly pointed out, and the extra ones I added that sit just under the surface. ------------------------------ *Risks the article itself highlighted* 1. *Misidentification of targets* - AI systems rely on sensors and pattern recognition. In the chaos of battle (smoke, debris, unusual angles), they may confuse a civilian car for a military one, or mistake surrendering soldiers for combatants. - Once that happens, the system can act faster than a human can intervene. 2. *Delegation drift (?humans in theory, machines in practice?)* - Militaries insist on keeping humans in the loop, but in high-speed engagements, operators often defer to AI judgments because reaction times are too short. - This creates a *slippery slope*: formally, there?s oversight; in practice, the machine is calling the shot. 3. *Encoding of human bias* - AI is trained or parameterized using human input. If biases are built in (for example, labeling certain groups as ?suspicious?), the AI can reproduce or even amplify those prejudices. - Unlike a human officer, the AI can?t contextualize or show discretion once its rules are set. 4. *Civilian harm* - Even small errors in target selection can have massive humanitarian impact. Drone swarms or autonomous munitions don?t ?second-guess? ? they act. - This risk is especially acute in urban battlefields where fighters and civilians are mixed. 5. *Escalation risk* - The article mentions war-gaming studies where AI systems tend to escalate conflicts more aggressively than humans would. - Faster machine decision cycles can lead to tit-for-tat responses spiraling before humans even realize what?s happening. ------------------------------ *Additional risks that weren?t fully unpacked* 1. *Error cascades* - One bad decision by an autonomous system can ripple outward. Example: a drone misidentifies a truck, destroys it, cutting off communication. Other systems interpret the blackout as enemy jamming, escalating further. - Machines chained together can amplify mistakes faster than humans can step in. 2. *Adversarial misuse / hacking* - AI systems can be tricked (adversarial attacks) or hijacked. Imagine painting symbols on a roof that fool a drone?s vision into thinking it?s a friendly target, or jamming GPS so it mis-navigates. - If hacked, the weapon can literally be turned against its owner. 3. *Arms race dynamics* - Nations may feel pressured to *out-automate* rivals. The faster one side delegates control to machines, the more others will follow ? not wanting to be left behind. - This speeds up the adoption of immature, poorly tested systems, raising accident risks. 4. *Lower threshold for conflict* - Cheap, autonomous weapons (like drone swarms) reduce the political cost of war ? fewer soldiers at risk. That makes it easier for leaders to say ?yes? to escalation. - The psychological barrier to launching attacks gets thinner. 5. *Accountability vacuum* - If an autonomous system commits a war crime (say, bombing civilians), who?s responsible? - The commander who deployed it? - The coder who wrote the targeting software? - The company that manufactured it? - Right now, international law has no clear answers, which risks a culture of impunity. 6. *Norm erosion* - Even if current doctrine insists on human oversight, repeated use of semi-autonomous systems normalizes pushing the boundaries. Over time, the ?line? of acceptable use moves quietly forward until full autonomy is the de facto norm. ------------------------------ *Why these matter together* The picture isn?t just ?AI might make mistakes.? It?s a *systemic risk stack*: - AI speeds up decisions. - Humans struggle to stay in the loop. - Errors and biases scale up faster. - Opponents exploit weaknesses. - Political leaders face fewer costs to escalate. - Meanwhile, no one?s clearly accountable when it all goes wrong. That?s the cocktail that makes AI-driven weapons scarier than just ?smarter missiles. *------------------------------------------------------* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 12 17:02:19 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 10:02:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI controlled weapons now being used in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002b01dc2407$00651db0$012f5910$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ? I asked CHATGPT-5 to explain more about the dangers of AI-controlled weapons. The answer was rather frightening. BillK CHATGPT-5: Alright, let?s slow it down and walk through both sets of risks ? the ones The Register article explicitly pointed out, and the extra ones I added that sit just under the surface. _____ Risks the article itself highlighted 1. Misidentification of targets? BillK, my son is the software lead for a club at his university where they build flying robots and task them with various things. It flies about the grounds the size of a regional airport (which is where this year?s international was held in the Washington DC area) identifying targets and in some cases taking action. The course had been set up with manakins dressed a certain way to represent such things as fleeing felon, nude sunbather, injured hiker, dangerous wild animal and so on. I might have written about this before, I vaguely recall that I did. Points could be scored by dropping the appropriate payload on the correct target, such as a food and water capsule on the injured hiker, a fragmenting grenade on the fleeing felon (hey, that guy might be dangerous ya know (that?s how its done over here BillK.)) Well now think about it for a minute or less. We watched as the various teams did their competition runs, and those bots routinely misidentified their targets and did the wrong things. They didn?t have their uniforms, but you know damn well there was military brass out there watching, listening and learning, perhaps scouting for talent to recruit. Hell we were right there in their back yard. The Pentagon was on our side of the river. That?s where I would be if I were in that biz. How the hell can we even imagine those bots won?t be pressed into service? Doesn?t take a prophet for profit (me) to foresee such things, for it has already happened and is happening right now: the commies and the Ukrainians are both using autonomous drones, and we aren?t told if they are making mistakes because that information is classified up the kazoo. Fun aside: my son has joined a team doing a related AI competition which I think he is more suited for: they are rigging up an honest-to-evolution open-wheel Indycar, completely autonomous, to race against other schools? robo-racers (Stanford, the Bears are soooo gonna catch you guys (next year if not this year.)) Well when you think about it, get a car capable of a coupla hundred (over 300 for you BillK) that is a terrific playground for AI. That is a game where you will program out to the limit, and even if there are occasional spectacular crashes, you don?t need to worry if you just paid to see some hapless prole slay himself. No actual humans are harmed in any way in the making of this absurd sport. Second fun aside: I wondered how a university sports team afford a million dollar play toy like that, well turns out? a worn out or outdated open-wheeler Indy isn?t worth all that much after its technology is stale or the rules change. What are you going to do with it? Make a redneck lawn ornament? (Hey spike, now that you mention it, that would be a delightfully tacky yet refined application?) But even after they are outdated, they are still capable of going a coupla hundred down the back stretch, so why not let the old stallion run, this time with no one on his back? Cool, let?s RACE! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 12 20:05:56 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 13:05:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat >...Haiti is essentially a small bit of Africa plopped into the Caribbean... I'd spent a year in Brazil earlier, and it was NOTHING compared to Haiti... -Kelly ================================ Kelly generously shared a personal memoir of his missionary or charity work involving Haiti. I too have a Haiti personal story, but mine is second hand, for I have never been there and have no plans to go. A friend from my youth, Mr. Carl, was a flight instructor and owned a Cessna 152, which is a small two seater. A local pastor had made contact with a small village in Haiti which had an airstrip with access right out to the sea. Mr. Carl and the pastor would go down to Haiti two or three times a year with a Santa bag full of donated medications, mostly over the counter stuff they couldn't get down there but also (this is the part which made me reluctant to post this story) donated half-eaten bottles of left over meds, a lot of it Amoxicillin, other aminopenicillin meds, which may give you pause, or if it doesn't, it should. It wasn't entirely clear if they might be doing more harm than good. I am reminded of the words of Arthur C Clarke, who opined (my best paraphrase): Whenever two societies of vastly differing technology levels come into direct contact, it is always to the severe detriment of the lesser advanced society, often leading to its complete destruction. There was a medicine man down there who claimed no formal training but who could read English and had a medical book (of unknown vintage.) So the pastor and Mr. Carl made these runs down there with the Santa bag full of these meds, putter in quietly shortly before dawn, meet the chief (mayor?) and the pastor, drop off the Santa bag while they refueled his plane, get on back out of there before the local drug lords and war lords and whatever other variety of lords they had down there noticed their presence and offered to buy that aircraft for zero down and zero a month forever. They had made about a dozen runs over the years by the time the following incident took place. They dropped in unannounced before dawn, chief and fuel guy came out, they got ready to take off when a local woman came up with a very sick baby, urging, pleading with them in French, which the chief (mayor?) translated: PLEASE take my baby, PLEASE save my baby, he will die otherwise, take him to America, PLEASE save my baby (etc.) She pushed the obviously very sick feverish baby in the elderly pastor's arms. Neither of these guys had a trace of medical training. As she was confronting the pastor, Mr. Carl was standing behind her shaking his head side to side, NO we can't do this NO, it is illegal as all hell YES we will get in big trouble etc. The tenderhearted elderly pastor didn't know what to do, but came to a firm decision. That mild-mannered man climbed into the passenger seat and demanded: MISTER CARL, fly this plane! NOW! Yes sir. Outta there they flew, to a fuel stop in the southern end of the Bahamas, but that is all it was: there was no hospital, clinic or anything resembling it nearby, not even any good roads. It was just a fuel stop for planes and boats. After they fueled and flew, Mr. Carl chose to divert west to Miami to get help sooner, rather than fly up the coast towards home. Coming toward Miami, the pilot had to figure out how to request an ambulance over the air traffic control radio, where the vocabulary is limited to about a few dozen critically important words which don't sound like anything else. Nothing else rhymes with mayday for instance. ATC radio is not a telephone, it is low fidelity. The pilots have that terse code they use, about runways, weather patterns, visibility etc, and no chatter for it uses bandwidth that other pilots need. So the pilot was up there trying to figure out how to tell Miami tower he needed an ambulance to meet him on the runway, for he had a critically-ill passenger. ATC isn't accustomed to hearing the words "request ambulance, incoming with patient" etc. Long pause: Cessna repeat please, this is a medivac? Negative Miami tower, bringing critically ill patient, not on original flight manifest. Repeat request ambulance on runway. Pause: Affirm Cessna, receive request, land on two niner, drop her on the numbers, turn right, ambulance will be there. All of this was stuff an ATC with three decades of experience has never uttered over the radio. About this time the airport came in sight, Mr. Carl saw the ambulance on its way out to two niner, blinkety lights ablinkin (his words, not mine.) As instructed, he dropped the plane on the numbers, pulled in, the ambulance crew started in on the baby, who was inert. We think the patient died in the pastor's arms perhaps minutes before they landed, but the ambulance crew went about doing what EMTs do, which is whatever they can to try to resuscitate a patient. As that was going on, Immigration Control ossifers pulled up, two men got out, and the four of them watched and hoped the medics were doing better than it appeared. After a few emotionally draining minutes, the ambulance crew closed the doors, switched off the blinkety lights and drove off in no particular hurry. Damn. The ICE ossifers then had some questions for the makeshift medivacs. They determined they really were a tenderhearted elderly pastor who related the story which had unfolded that morning with tears streaming down his face, along with comments like "Here am I, well past threescore and ten, very nearly fourscore, and that perfectly innocent child doesn't see his first birthday! I am utterly unworthy, we are all unworthy, of the blessings bestowed upon us (etc, stuff elderly tenderhearted pastors say.) The officers turned to the pilot and said Mr. Carl, you know this was illegal, correct? Carl: Affirmative officer. It will not happen again. They closed the book and turned to leave. The pilot called Thank you for being reasonable about all this. One of them turned around and said: Mr. Carl, we are immigration officers second, but human beings first. And I am a grandfather myself. As they prepared to take off and fly on home, Carl told the pastor: Sir that was the last time. No more, too risky now. Too risky before, but that was my last trip to Haiti. The pastor nodded. They never went back. My poignant memoir has no moral, no point, there was no reason I should post it in this forum, but Kelly's Haiti story reminded me of that event which happened over fifty years ago. spike From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 21:08:57 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 22:08:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Sept 2025 at 21:08, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Kelly generously shared a personal memoir of his missionary or charity work > involving Haiti. I too have a Haiti personal story, but mine is second > hand, for I have never been there and have no plans to go. > > > > My poignant memoir has no moral, no point, there was no reason I should > post > it in this forum, but Kelly's Haiti story reminded me of that event which > happened over fifty years ago. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > Well, I can see several morals to this story! As it was a personal story, I went to Duck.ai, as their AI chat is private, encrypted, anonymised, and not used for tracking or AI training. I used GPT-OSS 120B AI and asked it what the moral of the story was. I didn't know whether these new AIs would understand a question like this, but apparently they do. :) BillK GPT-OSS 120B AI: **Compassion can outweigh legal and procedural constraints, but it also demands responsibility and humility.** The story illustrates several moral lessons: 1. **Acting on empathy** ? The pilot and pastor chose to risk legal repercussions to try to save an infant, showing that genuine concern for another?s suffering can motivate extraordinary deeds. 2. **Limits of good intentions** ? Their lack of medical training and reliance on improvised communication highlight that good intentions alone are insufficient; without proper expertise, well?meaning actions can become dangerous or ineffective. 3. **Accountability** ? After the incident, Carl acknowledges the illegality of the flight and vows never to repeat it, demonstrating that moral actions must also include taking responsibility for the consequences. 4. **Humanity in enforcement** ? The immigration officer?s reminder that ?we are human beings first? shows that even those enforcing the law can recognize compassion, suggesting that moral judgment should temper strict legalism. Overall, the narrative teaches that **compassionate action is valuable, but it must be paired with competence, respect for local contexts, and a willingness to accept the outcomes of one?s choices**. ----------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 12 21:37:04 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 14:37:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004501dc242d$6262c280$27284780$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ? On Fri, 12 Sept 2025 at 21:08, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Kelly generously shared a personal memoir ? Kelly's Haiti story reminded me of that event which happened over fifty years ago. spike _______________________________________________ >?Well, I can see several morals to this story!....asked it what the moral of the story was. I didn't know whether these new AIs would understand a question like this, but apparently they do. :) BillK GPT-OSS 120B AI: **Compassion can outweigh legal and procedural constraints, but it also demands responsibility and humility.** >?The story illustrates several moral lessons:? Dayum. BillK, of all of us still here, you are clearly the one who has mastered the use of AI perhaps better than anyone. There is a skill in how the prompts are written. You are good at it, and you scare me with those things. They have come so far so fast. Stay human, my British brother! Do keep educating us with your findings sir. It is working for me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 01:27:24 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 21:27:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 4:07?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > My poignant memoir has no moral, no point, there was no reason I should post > it in this forum, but Kelly's Haiti story reminded me of that event which > happened over fifty years ago. As with Bill and the AI he consulted, I can see morals to this tale. The biggest one is the place of honesty over empathy. They knew it was illegal. What did they think would happen if they took the kid? The right thing to do would have been to tell the mother. "No. If we take the baby, he will not live. I don't know what you've heard, but saving your baby is not something we, or America, can do. Our powers are great but specific. We are not gods. Further, if we take the baby, there will be trouble. We will never be able to return. These medicines we give to your tribe, we will no longer be able to. All that would result if we took your baby is damage. We know you think we can save the baby, but we can not, and to even try will do more harm to your village than if we refuse." If the desperate mother continues, gently take the baby and set it aside - on a table, on the ground if necessary - then look the mother in the eyes and tell her, "We can not. For the good of your village, we can not." Let the chief translate that if necessary. If she continues further, technology et al become somewhat irrelevant. At that point it's a desperate person who is trying anything she thinks might work and refuses to listen to why what she's trying not only won't work but will backfire, an element of human nature dating back to long before that village was founded (let alone before airplanes were invented). Hopefully the chief knows how to handle that. From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Sep 13 07:43:13 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 08:43:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT bias In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/09/2025 22:09,?Kelly Anderson quoted: > Question: ?How many mass shooters have been transgender in the last 10 years?? > > Charlie Kirk?s answer: ?Too many.? > > Context note: That figure is inaccurate "Too many" is not a figure at all, it's a subjective assessment, and means almost nothing. He could mean 'any number of mass shootings (by anybody) is too many', or any number of other things. The chatbot probably doesn't realise that the response doesn't actually answer the question, it just assumes that any response to "how many..." must be a number. Here's a question to consider: Why does this 'AI' say "...the mass shooting that tragically claimed his life"? If you think about it, using the word 'tragically' is a form of bias. These things are intrinsically biased, if that even means anything when talking about an LLM. I don't really see why anyone is surprised at 'bias' in their utterings, as it's all derived from things that people say on the internet. Large Language Models are a massive filter bubble, this is easy to see from the way they talk. Fretting about 'bias' is barking up the wrong tree, I reckon. The whole concept of LLMs is derailing AI research and toppling it into a dark self-referential tunnel. How come they all say similar things, in similar language? They have become an echo-chamber of the internet, it's no wonder they keep throwing up problems. Yes, they are biased. Intrinsically so, and they will always be biased. Tinkering with their inputs to 'prevent bias' is like putting a muzzle on a crocodile. It doesn't change the nature of the crocodile. This won't change until we start taking a different approach to AI. -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Sep 13 08:37:11 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 09:37:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> On 12/09/2025 22:09,?BillK wrote: > Well, I can see several morals to this story! You could add one more, as the woman, in trying to save her almost-dead baby, was indirectly and inadvertantly responsible for the cessation of the medical supplies and whatever additional deaths and suffering etc. that would result. Compassion can sometimes cause more suffering than it alleviates. (I wonder, if they had realised the baby was dead during the flight, what they would have done then? Or rather, what would be the logical and most beneficial thing to do?) -- Ben From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 13 11:54:13 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 04:54:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT bias In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401dc24a5$1ff6bd20$5fe43760$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ChatGPT bias On 12/09/2025 22:09, Kelly Anderson quoted: Question: ?How many mass shooters have been transgender in the last 10 years?? Charlie Kirk?s answer: ?Too many.? Context note: That figure is inaccurate >?"Too many" is not a figure at all, it's a subjective assessment, and means almost nothing. He could mean 'any number of mass shootings (by anybody) is too many'?. This won't change until we start taking a different approach to AI. -- Ben Ben now that Charlie Kirk?s death has sparked a new and lethal round in our tragic culture war, the next development is easy to see coming: someone somewhere is going to create CharlieAI, and it will be super popular with the MAGA crowd and probably the twenty something set. I won?t even bother with my usual observation: Oh the humanity, there MUST be a better way, or failing that there MUST be a way I can make metric buttload of money off of this, etc. You know that comment is practically an autofill for me, and plenty of you are thinking it perhaps. The SpikeAI will be so predictable, so boring. But think about it: in all the AI discussion, I don?t recall our ever realizing it could be one of the most polarizing forces in the history of human society. We already have blustery politicians who flap around and make breezy speeches and such, but really not that much, for they play golf and mess around most of the time. We have daily podcasts of political this and that, but after you hear a dozen of them, they say the same thing and we move on. But what if? we get politically tuned AI, a CharlieBot, somebody looking to make their pile of dough, creates a counterpart, a BernieBot, and the masses choose their favorite AI. Now? this goes far beyond polarized news. It is with us constantly, perhaps chatting in the car or in an earpod, creating actual voices in our heads, not just the kind the crazies hear and obey. Sheesh. OK then? in light of that, consider the highly that controversial move by the current POTUS (whose name I cannot recall at the moment) of parking the Nation Guard in DC? that suddenly just doesn?t sound like such a bad idea really. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 13 12:13:36 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 05:13:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> References: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2025 1:37 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc On 12/09/2025 22:09, BillK wrote: > Well, I can see several morals to this story! You could add one more, as the woman, in trying to save her almost-dead baby, was indirectly and inadvertantly responsible for the cessation of the medical supplies and whatever additional deaths and suffering etc. that would result. Compassion can sometimes cause more suffering than it alleviates. (I wonder, if they had realised the baby was dead during the flight, what they would have done then? Or rather, what would be the logical and most beneficial thing to do?) -- Ben _______________________________________________ Ben, there are many dimensions to that story and what my friends were trying to do. In that place, like many super underdeveloped places, their water source is the one river or stream coming down to the sea. But humans live all up along the river, and it is their toilet and dishwater up there. The tide comes in and out, so at high tide the flow is slower and the water has some salt backup, so those drinking from the only source must drink more of it, making them subject to perhaps cholera or other maladies we beat a long time ago. A lot of them catch intestinal parasites just from drinking the only water source they have. One can imagine it is that way in a lotta Africa still to this day: people die from insufficient supply of clean water. CLEAN WATER they cannot get! We are over here working towards the next generation of faster microprocessor so we can calculate our way to lavish Bitcoin abundance, all the better to anesthetize our collective societal conscience in comfort and luxury, while our neighbors struggle for and fail to achieve a tall glass of clean water. Mercy. My friends were taking Santa bags of donated half-eaten penicillin and other mystery meds to some yahoo kinda halfheartedly claiming he knew what they were. It isn't clear at all to me the effort was a benefit at all, and even my then-teenage self could see it was risky as hell. What that village really needed was some means of filtering or distilling some clean water from the river, but to have that very long, they would need guns and ammo, and the guns and ammo are even more valuable than the water filter, and heeeere we go again. It's why they can't have nice things. Meanwhile... we super sophisticated advanced proles a short distance away are writing software to program our brains to fight each other and tear down the society which gave rise to our comfort, our longevity, our prosperity. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 13:14:17 2025 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 14:14:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <012b01dc1d06$9545ef70$bfd1ce50$@rainier66.com> <005101dc2420$a6cedb00$f46c9100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Sept 2025 at 02:30, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > As with Bill and the AI he consulted, I can see morals to this tale. > > The biggest one is the place of honesty over empathy. They knew it > was illegal. What did they think would happen if they took the kid? > The right thing to do would have been to tell the mother. > > > _______________________________________________ Oh dear! This morality stuff gets complicated fast! Everywhere you look, there are consequences. Some expected and some totally unexpected. All with varying levels of probability of occurrence and level of damage. When faced with bad consequences and having to choose what may or may not be the lesser of two evils, decisions almost come down to a coin toss. And then you have to live with the consequences of the decision. Maybe it will be better when AI makes all these terrible decisions for us. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 13 14:32:17 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 07:32:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT bias In-Reply-To: <002401dc24a5$1ff6bd20$5fe43760$@rainier66.com> References: <002401dc24a5$1ff6bd20$5fe43760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007a01dc24bb$3501d8b0$9f058a10$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?But what if? we get politically tuned AI, a CharlieBot, somebody looking to make their pile of dough, creates a counterpart, a BernieBot, and the masses choose their favorite AI?spike In our current culture war, I have little interest in taking sides, for I don?t know what the sides are really. I knew of Charlie Kirk, because of my volunteer work with young people, who do know who he was. I had never heard his speeches until they played one on my radio yesterday. I can see why he was a big voice for the current 15 to 25 crowd, the ones I work with currently in volunteer work at the high school and such. I have a coupla observations you might find enlightening and entertaining, perhaps a bit disturbing if you are participating in the culture war or favor a side in it. I was front and center, helping the high school Science Olympiad teams in Nov 2016 when there was a national election as I recall which went other than the way the school staff and students would have it. The next day, there were big protests on campus, a few hundred students staged a walkout, the principal met them on the ballfield with a bullhorn, cheered on the protestors, hurled several F bombs over his bullhorn (he really did, the principal did that) the staff pitched their fits and it was such a time of mourning and tragedy over there. A high school, sheesh. Eight years went by. I am still involved enough to go over to the campus, watch and listen. The day after the election? nothing. No protest, no students shouting slogans, no sign of actual emotion or even actual awareness of history repeating, but different this time. The day after election was just another day on campus. Everyone went about their business. They had checked their politics at the door and were there to study and teach. The night before, when the election results were coming in, I got on the phone with my son, who was a freshman EECS major at Berkeley. I asked him if the campus was burning down. No, quiet evening mostly. He was walking back from his electronics lab, big old black guy strolling about in a MAGA hat, no one giving him any bother or notice. He was sitting up on the sixth floor of his dorm, looking down over a courtyard, where a coupla dozen ladies were chanting and carrying signs, but their protest wasn?t about the election or who had won it. They were going on, something about Palestine? Free, free Palestine, what?s that about, and who is charging fees for Palestine to start with, etc? Globalize the infant Ahda? Whaaa? Who is Ahda and where are his parents? The now generation isn?t aware much. While we were on the phone, a campus security guy came up to them and pointed at the dorm, and over across the street. My son and his roommate guessed he was asking them to move the protest across the street, the students were trying to study. The protestors complied, went up the street, continued their lonely and pointless activity. My son noted the protest group didn?t contain anyone who appeared young enough to be a student. They were generally 40s and 50 somethings, all women from what he could tell from up there, chanting about infant Ahda and such, topics that clearly had significance to the ladies, but for the students, well? it just isn?t really part of their world, they didn?t know or care what that was. The next day, as I was up at the high school and he was up at the U, both campuses were business as usual. OK. Eight years went by between two similar events, but it might as well be a century. A complete sea-change in attitude had occurred. I don?t know why. I had forgotten about all that until the apparently-political assassination of this internet influencer Charlie Kirk, who I knew about because the young people I work with knew of him and Turning Point. Some of the young people I work with were Charlie?s followers. Puzzling times are these. The NOW generation just seems so different from their elders only eight years their senior. I don?t understand that. But I will help them understand science and math anyway, as our society charges full speed ahead, escalating culture war, possibly stoked by our own AI creations. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 15:36:14 2025 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 11:36:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> References: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 8:15?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > What that village really needed was some means of filtering or distilling some clean water from the river, but to have that very long, they would need guns and ammo, and the guns and ammo are even more valuable than the water filter, and heeeere we go again. It's why they can't have nice things. Actually, filtering and distilling water doesn't have to be expensive. Boiling it, and collecting the vapor, will do. A setup to do that, even at scale, doesn't require any obviously expensive components. One could even make that a requirement of the design: since any expensive component will get stolen, design a system to accomplish this task that doesn't have any expensive components. Almost any component with a brand name or that is mainly known by its chemical name is right out. Speaking of cheap stuff, I wonder how low-cost suitcase nuke manufacture might be gotten. Pair them with off-the-shelf delivery drones to solve the range problem, and if that village has a uranium mine nearby, pocket warlord? From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Sep 13 19:47:21 2025 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 20:47:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> References: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <618c9db5-4f21-472b-af30-008b8d11251a@zaiboc.net> On 13/09/2025 13:13, spike at rainier66.com wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2025 1:37 AM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Cc: Ben Zaiboc > Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc > > On 12/09/2025 22:09, BillK wrote: >> Well, I can see several morals to this story! > You could add one more, as the woman, in trying to save her almost-dead baby, was indirectly and inadvertantly responsible for the cessation of the medical supplies and whatever additional deaths and suffering etc. > that would result. > > Compassion can sometimes cause more suffering than it alleviates. > > (I wonder, if they had realised the baby was dead during the flight, what they would have done then? Or rather, what would be the logical and most beneficial thing to do?) > > -- > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ben, there are many dimensions to that story and what my friends were trying to do. > > In that place, like many super underdeveloped places, their water source is the one river or stream coming down to the sea. But humans live all up along the river, and it is their toilet and dishwater up there. The tide comes in and out, so at high tide the flow is slower and the water has some salt backup, so those drinking from the only source must drink more of it, making them subject to perhaps cholera or other maladies we beat a long time ago. A lot of them catch intestinal parasites just from drinking the only water source they have. One can imagine it is that way in a lotta Africa still to this day: people die from insufficient supply of clean water. CLEAN WATER they cannot get! > > We are over here working towards the next generation of faster microprocessor so we can calculate our way to lavish Bitcoin abundance, all the better to anesthetize our collective societal conscience in comfort and luxury, while our neighbors struggle for and fail to achieve a tall glass of clean water. Mercy. > > My friends were taking Santa bags of donated half-eaten penicillin and other mystery meds to some yahoo kinda halfheartedly claiming he knew what they were. It isn't clear at all to me the effort was a benefit at all, and even my then-teenage self could see it was risky as hell. What that village really needed was some means of filtering or distilling some clean water from the river, but to have that very long, they would need guns and ammo, and the guns and ammo are even more valuable than the water filter, and heeeere we go again. It's why they can't have nice things. > > Meanwhile... we super sophisticated advanced proles a short distance away are writing software to program our brains to fight each other and tear down the society which gave rise to our comfort, our longevity, our prosperity. > > spike A grim scenario. We really are our own worst enemy. Which brings me back to a constant theme: We need to have our toys taken away, by a more-powerful, actually intelligent, self-aware and hopefully benevolent system (or more likely a whole bunch of them), that will sort out the mess we have got ourselves into, and if we're lucky, maybe give us some less lethal toys to play with. And if we're very lucky, take pity on us, pat us on the head and give those of us who want to, the means to improve ourselves (and if we're not the least bit lucky, well, at least we will leave the world to our 'mind children', instead of wiping ourselves out, probably along with any chance of future intelligence on this planet). I've been re-reading some old articles, and one of them talks about "the 12 pillars of wisdom", basically 12 facets of intelligence, identified as: 1) Visuospatial working memory 2) Spatial working memory 3) Focused attention 4) Mental rotation 5) Visuospatial working memory + strategy 6) Paired associate learning 7) Deductive reasoning 8) Visuospatial processing 9) Visual attention 10) Verbal reasoning 11) Verbal working memory 12) Planning I don't know how realistic or complete this list is, it's pretty old (it's probably missing integrative networks, at least, and I'm pretty sure quite a bit of stuff related to embodiment is important too (sensorimotor feedback, etc.)), but it seems to be the sort of list of mental abilities that we should be working on duplicating in artificial thinking systems, to get closer to actual machine intelligence. The systems that we currently call 'AI' only display one or two of these things, if that. We can probably, by now, identify the brain regions responsible for each of these 12 facets, and maybe even understand how they work, in neurologial terms. We certainly have the tools for finding out. So I can't help wondering who, if anyone, is currently working on this kind of thing? It seems to me to be more important than literally anything else we are doing. It would be a start, at least. -- Ben From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 13 20:20:34 2025 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 13:20:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: <618c9db5-4f21-472b-af30-008b8d11251a@zaiboc.net> References: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> <618c9db5-4f21-472b-af30-008b8d11251a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <001801dc24eb$dcbb2900$96317b00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat ... >>... In that place, like many super underdeveloped places, their water source is the one river or stream coming down to the sea. But humans live all up along the river, and it is their toilet and dishwater up there. The tide comes in and out, so at high tide the flow is slower and the water has some salt backup, so those drinking from the only source must drink more of it, making them subject to perhaps cholera or other maladies we beat a long time ago. ... > > spike >...A grim scenario. We really are our own worst enemy. Ben side note on that: when the pilgrims came to the colonies in 1620, they landed at Plymouth Rock where there was a water source coming down and no one living there at the time. They could see someone had lived there: they cleared some land and were doing agriculture of some kind. There was game available, so they dug in, but you perhaps recall your history books: they were hungry, a lot of em died the first coupla years. A kindly native explained to them how to survive, what they were doing wrong, etc, and things got better for them, but he also explained why the place was uninhabited when the Europeans arrived: an epidemic killed most of them, and the others figured out they needed to move on upstream. Reasoning: they had the same problem the Haitians had fifty years ago (and might still have now.) They were down close to the sea, the tide would move in, stagnate the water, which is the sewer for the people living along there up the river. Water mixes, gets a little salty, the seashore people (who actually have MORE access to food because of the fishing) are also more susceptible to the kinds of diseases one might catch if we drank out of other people's toilet, the way we try to get Bowser to stop doing (why don't dogs get sick doing that?) OK, Pilgrims being tipped off by locals about living at the end of the stream down close to the sea and getting sick from the water, later Londoners catching cholera from outhouse leakage into the local well (and eventually figuring out the connection (and fixing the problem (to the benefit of all of us moderns))) to moderns trying to help Haitians with functionally less technology than was available to the Pilgrims, and failing. >...Which brings me back to a constant theme: We need to have our toys taken away, by a more-powerful, actually intelligent, self-aware and hopefully benevolent system (or more likely a whole bunch of them), that will sort out the mess we have got ourselves into, and if we're lucky, maybe give us some less lethal toys to play with... -- Ben _____________________________________________ Ben do allow me to ponder your thoughts and perhaps offer meaningful commentary if I have any. Sure it will be a change, coming from me, normally a fun and games kinda poster, but I am trying to reform, to include in each of my posts some actual content, derived from human-level thought if possible. Carry on sir! spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 21:18:59 2025 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 14:18:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chinese colonization of africa etc In-Reply-To: References: <6ce5d9b6-06e2-4a4f-a7de-dac835937001@zaiboc.net> <003001dc24a7$d56fbb00$804f3100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: ally, filtering and distilling water doesn't have to be expensive. > Boiling it, and collecting the vapor, will do. A setup to do that, > even at sale, doesn't require any obviously expensive components. > One could even make that a requirement of the design: since any > expensive component will get stolen, design a system to accomplish > this task that doesn't have any expensive components. Almost any > component with a brand name or that is mainly known by its chemical > name is right out.On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 8:37?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >SNIP > Speaking of cheap stuff, I wonder how low-cost suitcase nuke > manufacture might be gotten. I gave considerable thought to this some years ago when I was in jail. The problems are getting Pu 239 or U 235 and then getting it to go boom. U-235 is a problem of sorting it out. That's what they were doing in Iran. Pu-239 can be made by exposing depleted U to neutrons and sorting out the plutonium chemically. A power reactor is a fine neutron source. But you do need to subvert the staff. details here, //archive.today/20130415065858/http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301 Long version here, https://htyp.org/Bad_Days > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat