[ExI] Subjective/Objective

[Ben Zaiboc]

On 13/07/2026 22:08, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2026, 4:40 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>     Hi Adrean,
>     Thanks for jumping in.
>     I hope you're not asserting that beliefs about qualia are unfalsifiable?
>     Did you see my response to Ben about an hour before you sent this, where I discussed fixing issues for people who suffer from achromatopsia?
>     People are working on cortical visual prosthetics and are getting close to figuring out how to stimulate the cortex in a way that results in the experience of color qualities.
>     Once they know what is responsible for color qualities, and what to stimulate in the cortex to produce them, all this will be objectively understood, including the method by which those qualities are rendered into our conscious knowledge or experience.
>     And if it is demonstrated to be something more than just 'messages,' it would falsify the belief that it is all messages or 'signals'.
>
>
>
> Brent,
>
> Wasn't this addressed by the experiment in 2009 where colorblind monkeys had their retinas infected with a virus that coded for a new photopigment, and then in a few weeks their brains adjusted to process the new signals in a way that allowed them to discirminate colors they weren't previously able to discriminate?
>
> This result suggests to me that it's not any new molecules introduced into the brain that gave these monkeys a new color property, but rather, new signals/data coming into the visual cortex which were not previously there. After the visual cortex rewired itself to be able to distinguish and appropriately process this new signal (a signal that was uncorrelated with either of the other two color signals from the retina) the monkeys would then see this new color, which is completely unlike seeing any mixture of the other two colors.


I'd add to this that nobody, including the other monkeys in the experiment, could know what it was like for any one monkey to experience this new colour, and it's quite possible, or even likely, that each monkey's experience was different.


"... if it is demonstrated to be something more than just 'messages,' it would falsify the belief that it is all messages or 'signals'"

Er, what is the definition of a message?:
"Something that conveys information"

So now it seems that Brent is suggesting that something in the cortex can be stimulated, to produce an experience, but /without conveying any information/.

Stranger and stranger.

-- 
Ben