From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 11:12:32 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 06:12:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Piker
In-Reply-To: <010701dd6979$a6323350$f29699f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB712awKgueNMrF5h7cGNzqkF1YyobbjeTGnFan0-j1_kg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2_J1AQZfp15p=n44w2wbbvzFX=HVMvHuCop1jWfF+Wvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 31, 2026 at 4:51?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


>> *>>?The current POTUS claims that he won 3 of the last 3 cycles, and in a
>> landslide each time. Do you believe him? John K Clark*
>
>
>  *> John the way I think of that is by considering what would have
> happened had not the FBI squirreled away Hunter?s laptop.  Had not that
> been done, Biden would not have won that election,*


*Wait a minute! Trump was the president in 2019 and 2020 and the FBI is
part of the executive branch and was run by Trump appointee Christopher
Wray, so if the FBI bungled Hunter Biden's laptop investigation (and
I'm NOT saying they did) then that's on Trump NOT the Democrats. *

*And besides, I don't see how it would have made a difference in the
election. The Trump acolytes don't give a damn that their guru received a
400 million dollar bribe from the Emir of Qatar, or that as President he
made $1.6 billion by selling a crypto coin called "$TRUMP" while the
suckers who bought it lost billions, or that a Russian oligarch and Putin
pal paid for his son's wedding, or that Trump and his sons made multi
BILLION dollar deals with various oil rich mideast nations. Nothing in
Hunter Biden's laptop even hinted at such a massive magnitude of
corruption, most of it was embarrassing but not illegal. So why would that
have changed the election outcome?  *

*John K Clark  *
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:07:38 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 07:07:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Threats=2C_Gaffes_and_Men=E2=80=99s_Posteriors?=
	=?utf-8?q?=3A_Trump=E2=80=99s_Talk_Gets_Wilder?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv23mJJwtHzTVM2QgOuHP0f7rQHkkqfCijhuzxk0O7A2NQ@mail.gmail.com>

Explore this gift article from The New York Times. You can read it for free
without a subscription.

Threats, Gaffes and Men?s Posteriors: Trump?s Talk Gets Wilder

A Times review of the president?s public speeches finds that he is more
profane, more absolutist, longer-winded and less coherent than he was in
2016.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/11/01/us/politics/trump-speeches-rallies-age.html?unlocked_article_code=1.NFE.jOL8.i7Ru9PCgdCjq&smid=em-share
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  1 13:06:06 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 05:06:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Piker
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2_J1AQZfp15p=n44w2wbbvzFX=HVMvHuCop1jWfF+Wvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB712awKgueNMrF5h7cGNzqkF1YyobbjeTGnFan0-j1_kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <02ed01dd6721$554c0510$ffe40f30$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAJPayv1OGAhfxFx3Qz5dx_y9s-zLeFp7NOUSX6YWW8doEaj5xw@mail.gmail.
 com> <010701dd6979$a6323350$f29699f0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <005301dd6a01$c1c222a0$454667e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 



 

 

>?Wait a minute! Trump was the president in 2019 and 2020 and the FBI is part of the executive branch and was run by Trump appointee Christopher Wray, so if the FBI bungled Hunter Biden's laptop investigation (and I'm NOT saying they did) then that's on Trump NOT the Democrats?

 

I will certainly give you that.  The current guy had many adversaries working against him in the executive branch.  He was warned that the intelligence community can come at you six ways to Sunday.  Well, they did.  We were told the intelligence community forms a shadow government.  It does. 

 

 

>?Nothing in Hunter Biden's laptop even hinted at such a massive magnitude of corruption, most of it was embarrassing but not illegal. So why would that have changed the election outcome?  

 

John K Clark

 

Polls taken after the laptop became public show that keeping that laptop secret tipped the election the other way.  Had not that been done, you could have been finished with the guy you hate by now.  We could have had Bernie Sanders ushering in a glorious socialist revolution, with equity for the proletariat etc.  We could have had Hasan Piker as Secretary of Destroying the Constitution.  Instead, we get brutal freedom from all that.  How shall we cope?

 

spike

 

 

 

  

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 13:44:59 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 08:44:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Piker
In-Reply-To: <005301dd6a01$c1c222a0$454667e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB712awKgueNMrF5h7cGNzqkF1YyobbjeTGnFan0-j1_kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <02ed01dd6721$554c0510$ffe40f30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2hDHKMbvfZ+CZB0OFpq4oLfPk9ABMSv-_uN6Jq3dP=_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2026 at 8:06?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*>> Wait a minute! Trump was the president in 2019 and 2020 and the FBI is
>> part of the executive branch and was run by Trump appointee Christopher
>> Wray, so if the FBI bungled Hunter Biden's laptop investigation (and
>> I'm NOT saying they did) then that's on Trump NOT the Democrats. **And
>> besides, I don't see how it would have made a difference in the election.
>> The Trump acolytes don't give a damn that their guru received a 400 million
>> dollar bribe from the Emir of Qatar, or that as President he made $1.6
>> billion by selling a crypto coin called "$TRUMP" while the suckers who
>> bought it lost billions, or that a Russian oligarch and Putin pal paid for
>> his son's wedding, or that Trump and his sons made multi BILLION dollar
>> deals with various oil rich mideast nations. Nothing in Hunter Biden's
>> laptop even hinted at such a massive magnitude of corruption, most of it
>> was embarrassing but not illegal. So why would that have changed the
>> election outcome?  *
>
>
> >* I will certainly give you that.  The current guy had many adversaries
> working against him in the executive branch.*


*So according to you even though Trump had the advantage of having
been president for 4 years, the Democrats still managed to outsmart him.  *

 >* He was warned that the intelligence community can come at you six ways
> to Sunday.  Well, they did.*


*It is the long-standing policy of the FBI not to comment on an ongoing
investigation as this was, especially if it's less than 90 days before an
election. But just 11 days before the 2016 election FBI Director James
Comey (NOT a Trump appointee) ignored this policy and announced that the
FBI was reopening its investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of a private
email server; and after the MASSIVE security violations we've
routinely seen in Donald's administration, Hillary's email server is very
small potatoes. *


> *> Polls taken after the laptop became public show that keeping that
> laptop secret tipped the election the other way. *
>

*The most damaging thing we learned from that laptop was that Hunter Biden
got a job from a Ukrainian company that paid $50,000 a month, pretty
trivial stuff compared to the multi BILLION dollar corruption that Trump's
sons engaged in as did Trump himself. And I am certain we will see even
more corruption during the next two years. *

*John K Clark*
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From ExiMod at protonmail.com  Mon Nov  2 00:32:01 2026
From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2026 00:32:01 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Sunday Power Problems in Los Angeles
Message-ID: <co4bYYMI1lLGAvo2ThcIMAPJRsGJOkCe6tISNJqqDutPvrJtajiKxlKOSaZPNSe2uLYaZirXHg4hYCHpqh9kpQ2_50LPCpSq1MOs2SiBkis=@protonmail.com>

Hi Folks
Due to bad weather in Southern California, power cuts are interrupting server availability. John has been transferring to battery backup power, but that will run out if the power supply remains out.
So don't panic if Exi-Chat goes offline for a while.
Regards, ExiMod

Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 00:39:01 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 16:39:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Sunday Power Problems in Los Angeles
In-Reply-To: <co4bYYMI1lLGAvo2ThcIMAPJRsGJOkCe6tISNJqqDutPvrJtajiKxlKOSaZPNSe2uLYaZirXHg4hYCHpqh9kpQ2_50LPCpSq1MOs2SiBkis=@protonmail.com>
References: <co4bYYMI1lLGAvo2ThcIMAPJRsGJOkCe6tISNJqqDutPvrJtajiKxlKOSaZPNSe2uLYaZirXHg4hYCHpqh9kpQ2_50LPCpSq1MOs2SiBkis=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e001dd6a62$8e5de3c0$ab19ab40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of ExiMod via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Sunday Power Problems in Los Angeles

 

>?Hi Folks

Due to bad weather in Southern California, power cuts are interrupting server availability. John has been transferring to battery backup power, but that will run out if the power supply remains out.

So don't panic if Exi-Chat goes offline for a while.

Regards, ExiMod

 

 

 

 

 

 

But Exi, I cannot LIVE without ExIChat!  Whatever shall I do!

 

Thanks ExiMod.  Thanks John.  May the power be back soon.  So far the power is staying on here.  As I understand it, that peaker plant Microsloth bought for a local data center can be used to carry the load here if the grid fails.  The locals are staging a big Stop the AI Race rally.  I would be very pleased if the power goes down and the peaker plant scheduled to run the data center gets used to keep our lights on. 

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 01:14:39 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 17:14:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Sunday Power Problems in Los Angeles
In-Reply-To: <01e001dd6a62$8e5de3c0$ab19ab40$@rainier66.com>
References: <co4bYYMI1lLGAvo2ThcIMAPJRsGJOkCe6tISNJqqDutPvrJtajiKxlKOSaZPNSe2uLYaZirXHg4hYCHpqh9kpQ2_50LPCpSq1MOs2SiBkis=@protonmail.com>
 <01e001dd6a62$8e5de3c0$ab19ab40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4wTtN-PjaZonrRQu3deNje1bq=stP5V4qFTL-JtVGXKA@mail.gmail.com>

That's interesting. Google News has nothing about power cuts in LA, I live
in the northern tip and the power has not blinked here. It rained about
half an inch, but no wind.

Keith


On Sun, Nov 1, 2026 at 4:40?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] Sunday Power Problems in Los Angeles
>
>
>
> >?Hi Folks
>
> Due to bad weather in Southern California, power cuts are interrupting
> server availability. John has been transferring to battery backup power,
> but that will run out if the power supply remains out.
>
> So don't panic if Exi-Chat goes offline for a while.
>
> Regards, ExiMod
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But Exi, I cannot LIVE without ExIChat!  Whatever shall I do!
>
>
>
> Thanks ExiMod.  Thanks John.  May the power be back soon.  So far the
> power is staying on here.  As I understand it, that peaker plant Microsloth
> bought for a local data center can be used to carry the load here if the
> grid fails.  The locals are staging a big Stop the AI Race rally.  I would
> be very pleased if the power goes down and the peaker plant scheduled to
> run the data center gets used to keep our lights on.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 03:30:19 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 19:30:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this cool or what?
Message-ID: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>

I love being alive in 2026.  It's so cool, I sincerely hope AI doesn't kill
everybody.

 

Ten Years Away - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjo69o8zjb4> 

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 02:48:07 2026
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 19:48:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>

Why do wages seem to be falling behind inflation? I know tariffs and the
war in Iran play a role, but it seems to me that there?s more to it. I also
suspect health care is only beginning to become a major part of the
problem, as the number of expensive treatments and cures continues to grow
exponentially.



But why isn?t AI boosting productivity enough to help everyone afford more,
despite these pressures?  It seems like people aren?t doing better than
their parents were?  Why is that?



How much longer will it take? How much further into the singularity do we
need to go before the cost of living begins to noticeably decline for
everyone?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 05:10:06 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 00:10:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS0gcQNYxJFzkE3xWgd6xXtTxKN-cm04v2xTs+O=kkA7A@mail.gmail.com>

This has been a problem for decades, since long before modern AI.
Slowly boiling anger over it is part of what led to Trump's initial
election, and re-election.

Worker productivity has been rising for a while, before modern AI.
But most of the profits of that keep getting captured by a tiny elite,
and workers keep getting squeezed more and more.  Much of what
productivity improvements there have been from AI, at least at large
companies, are getting the same treatment.

Small businesses...well, most people are not their own bosses.  Not
everyone's cut out for that responsibility.  There's a large
percentage of workers who'll only ever work for someone else, never
for themselves.

Even the Singularity might not overturn this by itself.  Those who
live by sucking up other peoples' productivity have gotten quite good
at it - and they now have AI assistance in their endeavor, with more
access (on average) than the average worker.

On Sun, Nov 1, 2026 at 11:59?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> Why do wages seem to be falling behind inflation? I know tariffs and the war in Iran play a role, but it seems to me that there?s more to it. I also suspect health care is only beginning to become a major part of the problem, as the number of expensive treatments and cures continues to grow exponentially.
>
>
>
> But why isn?t AI boosting productivity enough to help everyone afford more, despite these pressures?  It seems like people aren?t doing better than their parents were?  Why is that?
>
>
>
> How much longer will it take? How much further into the singularity do we need to go before the cost of living begins to noticeably decline for everyone?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 06:20:12 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2026 22:20:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this cool or what?
In-Reply-To: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4D3Tv9-JJRxhj9Wm9hxeeRkTUcny8o83h2vztWOOOPHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2026 at 8:58?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I love being alive in 2026.  It?s so cool, I sincerely hope AI doesn?t
> kill everybody.
>

Claude was unfairly blamed for killing about 200 girls in Iran.

Ten Years Away - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjo69o8zjb4>
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 14:50:24 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 09:50:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] is this cool or what?
In-Reply-To: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT1RrKyjbdBPmiV5YiEaWKUi0_sw5t7aZsgG3-B=8GU_w@mail.gmail.com>

Context on the Tulsa mayor claim: the mayor of Tulsa is not actually
an AI (so far as anyone can prove), but has been rather pro-AI,

On Sun, Nov 1, 2026 at 11:59?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I love being alive in 2026.  It?s so cool, I sincerely hope AI doesn?t kill everybody.
>
>
>
> Ten Years Away - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 17:07:41 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 12:07:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 12:00?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*>Why do wages seem to be falling behind inflation? I know tariffs and the
> war in Iran play a role,*


*Absolutely! I am a (small l) libertarian so I believe that whenever
someone tries to screw around with free trade the results are always bad.
And you didn't need to be an economic genius to predict that if the Strait
of Hormuz gets blocked, which Iran is in an excellent position to do, then
the results on the economy will not be good.*

*> but it seems to me that there?s more to it. I also suspect health care
> is only beginning to become a major part of the problem, as the number of
> expensive treatments and cures continues to grow exponentially.*


*I'd like to know why more politicians are not asking how the average
technologically advanced nation in Europe or Asia spends per capita about a
third  what the US does, and yet they manage to produce results that are
superior to that of the US. Isn't it time to consider the possibility that
maybe just maybe we could learn something from them? I think it's time to
get over our cultural "Not Invented Here" cognitive bias. *


> *> But why isn?t AI boosting productivity enough to help everyone afford
> more, despite these pressures?*


*The answer is social inertia. For years computers have been better at
medical diagnosis and prescribing drugs than even the best human doctor,
and today an AI could provide ALL medical care, except for surgery and
nursing, and could do so at a dramatically lower cost; but laws prevent
that from happening. *

*And today an AI could drive trucks substantially safer than the average
human truck driver, but it's never going to become common until an AI can
drive dramatically safer than even the safest human truck driver, and maybe
not even then.*

*John K Clark*

>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 17:19:14 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 12:19:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Longevity escape velocity
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3BpnscbA7d5-syni+dpcWD9gOCu3-6KNVWK_oo9oOXTA@mail.gmail.com>

*Longevity escape velocity* <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyRE7eKKKug>


*John K Clark*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 17:35:21 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 12:35:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3PZkRfHQPuyv2J9xX+Fax==0aeMMJhxrQrWVtLO=SVng@mail.gmail.com>

*The music and lyrics were both written by Claude, and he also drew the
animation and perform the song *

*Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video*
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLRmcVU2oWw>

*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 18:03:07 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 10:03:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this cool or what?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1RrKyjbdBPmiV5YiEaWKUi0_sw5t7aZsgG3-B=8GU_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1RrKyjbdBPmiV5YiEaWKUi0_sw5t7aZsgG3-B=8GU_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f201dd6af4$6a5717c0$3f054740$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] is this cool or what?

>...Context on the Tulsa mayor claim: the mayor of Tulsa is not actually an AI (so far as anyone can prove), but has been rather pro-AI...  Adrian


Cool I had never pictured Tulsa as an AI hipster kind of place.  I envisioned cows and... cowboys and... cowboy bars and such.

I figure when writing songs, some poetic shortcuts are allowed.  I really liked the song, and the AI performer.

spike 







From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 18:14:58 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 10:14:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010d01dd6af6$123aded0$36b09c70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
?

 

>?I'd like to know why more politicians are not asking how the average  technologically advanced nation in Europe or Asia spends per capita about a third  what the US does, and yet they manage to produce results that are superior to that of the US?.. John K Clark

 

John that disparity goes away if you disregard gang wars, drug abuse deaths and suicides.  Those categories cause fatalities among the young, which have a high impact on statistics.  None of those categories should be averaged into life expectancy or efficacy of the medical system. 

 

spike 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 17:55:48 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 09:55:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this cool or what?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5Cgz5i0Q3D42DYdm_AKrZKHmQCbPeabVKnib-o9g0AVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5Cgz5i0Q3D42DYdm_AKrZKHmQCbPeabVKnib-o9g0AVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e301dd6af3$64ce45e0$2e6ad1a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 



>?Rather than killing us, the AI might bury us with scams.

Keith

 

Ja, well, if it comes down to that binary choice, I?ll taaaake? scams for 500 please Alex.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 18:49:18 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 13:49:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <010d01dd6af6$123aded0$36b09c70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01dd6af6$123aded0$36b09c70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1_9JDo17TaicZt-f0bdmGALcxvDL1W0ZeyRrY0dUfgAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 1:15?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


*>>?I'd like to know why more politicians are not asking how the average
>> technologically advanced nation in Europe or Asia spends per capita about a
>> third  what the US does, and yet they manage to produce results that are
>> superior to that of the US?.. John K Clark*
>
>
>
> *> John that disparity goes away if you disregard gang wars, drug abuse
> deaths and suicides.  Those categories cause fatalities among the young,
> which have a high impact on statistics.  None of those categories should be
> averaged into life expectancy or efficacy of the medical system.*
>

*ME*: Somebody told me that the reason the USA spends so much more on
healthcare than other rich nations in Europe and Asia and yet the life
expectancy is significantly lower is because of gang wars, drug abuse
deaths and suicides in the USA; is that true?

*GPT: No, gang violence, drug overdoses, and suicides are not a convincing
explanation for America's enormous spending premium. The much stronger
explanation is the higher cost of providing healthcare, particularly
hospital services, physician services, prescription drugs, and
administration. One particularly revealing statistic: In 2024, American
life expectancy reached a record 79 years, but remained 3.7 years below the
average of comparable wealthy countries. *

*Annual healthcare spending per person in the United States is $13,432.*
*Average of 11 comparable wealthy countries is $7,393,  82% more per
person. Purchasing-power-adjusted figures, based on the study's 2023
comparison.*

*  What explains this difference?*

*The research points to several factors:*

   -

   *Higher prices: American hospitals, doctors, and other healthcare
   providers generally charge considerably more.*
   -

   *Prescription drugs: Many medications cost substantially more in the
   United States.*
   -

   *Administrative costs: The fragmented insurance system creates
   substantial billing, paperwork, and administrative expenses.*
   -

   *Insurance and access: Millions of Americans remain uninsured or face
   financial barriers to obtaining care.*

*Perhaps most interestingly, Americans generally receive fewer healthcare
services, such as doctor visits and hospital procedures, than people in
comparable countries. **In other words, we're paying more even though we're
not necessarily receiving more medical care.*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 19:42:08 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 11:42:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1_9JDo17TaicZt-f0bdmGALcxvDL1W0ZeyRrY0dUfgAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01dd6af6$123aded0$36b09c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_9JDo17TaicZt-f0bdmGALcxvDL1W0ZeyRrY0dUfgAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014901dd6b02$3fc1b930$bf452b90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 



 

>>>? John that disparity goes away if you disregard gang wars, drug abuse deaths and suicides.  Those categories cause fatalities among the young, which have a high impact on statistics.  None of those categories should be averaged into life expectancy or efficacy of the medical system.

 

>>?ME: Somebody told me that the reason the USA spends so much more on healthcare than other rich nations in Europe and Asia and yet the life expectancy is significantly lower is because of gang wars, drug abuse deaths and suicides in the USA; is that true?

 

>?GPT: No, gang violence, drug overdoses, and suicides are not a convincing explanation for America's enormous spending premium?.

 

It doesn?t explain the spending premium.  The spending premium is more a result of our enormously expensive medication qualification system, and that medical school is enormously expensive.  Of course the professionals need to make that back.  I can?t fault them for that.  

 

The disparity in outcome as measured in fatalities and life expectancy is heavily impacted by drug abuse, gang wars and suicide.  Those shouldn?t be counted in life expectancy or attributed to shortcomings in the USA medical system.  There is a reason why the USA has medical tourists coming from other countries to here.

 

If one has a good health insurance policy (not the Obamacare minimum (an actual good policy (ja those are expensive as all hell))) then the US health system is very good.

 

John if you wish to consult AI, you don?t need to reword it.  Just cut and paste what I wrote, then if you wish for me to debate AI, include the prompt.  You are not needed as an interpreter for AI, for it can comment directly on my prompt.

 

In the above commentary on filtering out health and fatalities due to drug abuse, one must recognize that alcohol is a drug, the most commonly abused one.  Modern medicine has never found a pill to cure the damage caused by alcohol abuse.

 

spike 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 20:33:31 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 15:33:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <014901dd6b02$3fc1b930$bf452b90$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01dd6af6$123aded0$36b09c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_9JDo17TaicZt-f0bdmGALcxvDL1W0ZeyRrY0dUfgAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <014901dd6b02$3fc1b930$bf452b90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3ipvZAOA3oSNKFcHVSVXMyJS18gLo_zj2=nRfwro3zsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 2:42?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:



> *>>?GPT*
>> *: No, gang violence, drug overdoses, and suicides are not a convincing
>> explanation for America's enormous spending premium?.*
>
> *> It doesn?t explain the spending premium.  The spending premium is more
> a result of our enormously expensive medication qualification system, and
> that medical school is enormously expensive.  Of course the professionals
> need to make that back.  I can?t fault them for that. *
>


*But why are we the only country that has that problem? Why is our medical
qualification system so enormously more expensive than every other rich
country on the planet when our cumbersome system does NOT produce better
doctors? In fact, judging from the results Doctors in Japan, Germany, the
UK and many other nations are BETTER than US doctors.  And if the law
allowed AI to diagnose patients and prescribed drugs they could do a better
job than even foreign doctors, and do it for less than 1% of the cost. *

*John K Clark*

>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 20:42:24 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 12:42:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this cool or what?
In-Reply-To: <00e301dd6af3$64ce45e0$2e6ad1a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <003701dd6a7a$7c88aff0$759a0fd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5Cgz5i0Q3D42DYdm_AKrZKHmQCbPeabVKnib-o9g0AVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e301dd6af3$64ce45e0$2e6ad1a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7ZRD9ajhCxEgB-NFHoATWQ-_D9ZgBk7B9nO=qio-+-2g@mail.gmail.com>

Congress did not authorise this war. In two weeks, American forces struck
6,000 targets. The school was one of them. American forces killed almost
200 people, and the reporting reached for ?AI error?, which domesticated
the event into something a better algorithm or better guardrails could have
prevented.
[image: A US nuclear weapon test in Nevada in 1953.]
Forgetting the apocalypse: why our nuclear fears faded ? and why that?s
dangerous
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/forgetting-the-apocalypse-why-our-nuclear-fears-faded-and-why-thats-dangerous>
Read more
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/forgetting-the-apocalypse-why-our-nuclear-fears-faded-and-why-thats-dangerous>

In the days after the strike, the charisma of AI organised the entire
political conversation around the technology: whether Claude hallucinated,
whether the model was aligned, whether Anthropic bore responsibility for
its deployment. The constitutional question of who authorised this war and
the legal question of whether this strike constitutes a war crime were
displaced by a technical question that is easier to ask and impossible to
answer in the terms it set. The Claude debate absorbed the energy. That is
what charisma does.


Keith


On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 9:55?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
> *>?*Rather than killing us, the AI might bury us with scams.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> Ja, well, if it comes down to that binary choice, I?ll taaaake? scams for
> 500 please Alex.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 22:06:02 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 14:06:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3ipvZAOA3oSNKFcHVSVXMyJS18gLo_zj2=nRfwro3zsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3UKSMyb5gOiXUXsTRw+bqosJEy=xsA+ceiiwJE6uU1pQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01dd6af6$123aded0$36b09c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_9JDo17TaicZt-f0bdmGALcxvDL1W0ZeyRrY0dUfgAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <014901dd6b02$3fc1b930$bf452b90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv3ipvZAOA3oSNKFcHVSVXMyJS18gLo_zj2=nRfwro3zsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019701dd6b16$59e56000$0db02000$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
?

 

 

>?But why are we the only country that has that problem? Why is our medical qualification system so enormously more expensive than every other rich country on the planet when our cumbersome system does NOT produce better doctors? In fact, judging from the results Doctors in Japan, Germany, the UK and many other nations are BETTER than US doctors.  And if the law allowed AI to diagnose patients and prescribed drugs they could do a better job than even foreign doctors, and do it for less than 1% of the cost. 

 

John K Clark

 

 

I can offer recent firsthand experience.  The doctors here do use AI.  Advice: if you have any exotic condition, do not go to any research hospital.  You will be seen by parades of medical school professors teaching their students and interns to spot your condition, even if they might only see it a dozen times in a typical career.

 

The doctors use the heck out of AI now, and a patient dang well can use that too (I do) but the medics also have access to enormous piles of capital in the form of instrumentation.  All that must be paid for, so do not go to any research hospital where such capital intensive devices as an MRI machine is available.  Otherwise they will stuff you in there at the slightest provocation, appearing to look for excuses to poke you head first into their expensive machine.  It is a most unpleasant experience if one must have MRI done on one?s head.  

 

If one has minimal insurance, then no problem, they won?t let one near that machine, even if one has actual visible tumors falling from one?s ear.  The machine is used only by those who have good insurance (which is expensive as hell (because those good insurance policies are paying for everything.))

 

One of the benefits we were told would result from the ?Affordable? ?Care? Act was that the poor could get health insurance.  The problem is that most of them don?t.  They never apply for the health insurance, even if they can get it free.  When they show up at the hospital, the medics can?t do much for them, for even glancing at the uninsured patient is done at a loss to the hospital.  The doctors seeing uninsured patients have nothing to bill to.

 

With regard to Europe, I will offer this as an astonishing observation from my marvelous vacation there last year: Europe has waaaaay fewer flabmeisters than we have.  Any time one goes into the local Walmart or Costco, one sees flabberdemalions rolling about on those electric butt-haulers.  I don?t recall seeing any of those in Europe.  I understand there is a pill now which takes care of that.  We can?t blame the health system for that, but it is likely to have a big impact on longevity.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 23:39:19 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 18:39:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3PZkRfHQPuyv2J9xX+Fax==0aeMMJhxrQrWVtLO=SVng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3PZkRfHQPuyv2J9xX+Fax==0aeMMJhxrQrWVtLO=SVng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRRhg0p2oEREJc5DzezEfF9Zy9AjZNCKzPEdescXjsJqQ@mail.gmail.com>

With how much human direction?

Though, this is one of the better AI video efforts I've seen thus far.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 12:37?PM John Clark via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The music and lyrics were both written by Claude, and he also drew the animation and perform the song
>
> Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 23:56:22 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 18:56:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 2:44?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> John if you wish to consult AI, you don?t need to reword it.  Just cut and paste what I wrote, then if you wish for me to debate AI, include the prompt.  You are not needed as an interpreter for AI, for it can comment directly on my prompt.

That you do not do this yourself, about your own claims, is a flag
that you do not appear interested in the actual truth.


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Tue Nov  3 08:42:54 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2026 08:42:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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On 02/11/2026 23:39, spike wrote:
>
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
> ?
>
>  
>
>  
>
> >?But why are we the only country that has that problem? Why is our medical qualification system so enormously more expensive than every other rich country on the planet when our cumbersome system does NOT produce better doctors? In fact, judging from the results Doctors in Japan, Germany, the UK and many other nations are BETTER than US doctors.  And if the law allowed AI to diagnose patients and prescribed drugs they could do a better job than even foreign doctors, and do it for less than 1% of the cost. 
>
>  
>
> John K Clark
>
>  
>
>  
>
> I can offer recent firsthand experience.  The doctors here do use AI.  Advice: if you have any exotic condition, do not go to any research hospital.  You will be seen by parades of medical school professors teaching their students and interns to spot your condition, even if they might only see it a dozen times in a typical career.
>
>  
>
> The doctors use the heck out of AI now, and a patient dang well can use that too (I do) but the medics also have access to enormous piles of capital in the form of instrumentation.  All that must be paid for, so do not go to any research hospital where such capital intensive devices as an MRI machine is available.  Otherwise they will stuff you in there at the slightest provocation, appearing to look for excuses to poke you head first into their expensive machine.  It is a most unpleasant experience if one must have MRI done on one?s head.  
>
>  
>
> If one has minimal insurance, then no problem, they won?t let one near that machine, even if one has actual visible tumors falling from one?s ear.  The machine is used only by those who have good insurance (which is expensive as hell (because those good insurance policies are paying for everything.))
>
>  
>
> One of the benefits we were told would result from the ?Affordable? ?Care? Act was that the poor could get health insurance.  The problem is that most of them don?t.  They never apply for the health insurance, even if they can get it free.  When they show up at the hospital, the medics can?t do much for them, for even glancing at the uninsured patient is done at a loss to the hospital.  The doctors seeing uninsured patients have nothing to bill to.
>
>  
>
> With regard to Europe, I will offer this as an astonishing observation from my marvelous vacation there last year: Europe has waaaaay fewer flabmeisters than we have.  Any time one goes into the local Walmart or Costco, one sees flabberdemalions rolling about on those electric butt-haulers.  I don?t recall seeing any of those in Europe.  I understand there is a pill now which takes care of that.  We can?t blame the health system for that, but it is likely to have a big impact on longevity.


I don't understand this.

You're all chasing mosquitos round the room while a tiger is stalking you.

There is one clear cause for the ridiculously high expense of healthcare in the US: Already-rich people making making even more money from the suffering of poor people.

Healthcare being a profit-centre is not only morally wrong, it's bad for the economy. Keeping large numbers of people in poor health can't be a good economic strategy.

I don't know why none of you are acknowledging this. Just because it's a very difficult problem to solve doesn't mean you should be ignoring it.

Or is anyone going to seriously claim that I'm wrong?
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Tue Nov  3 08:54:22 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2026 08:54:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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On 02/11/2026 23:39, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> With how much human direction?


Well, seeing as AIs don't yet have their own motivations, so don't do things without initially being prompted to by humans, I'd say this was initiated by a human writing a prompt. How much human direction is that? You could argue 100%.

I think we can confidently say that it wouldn't exist without at least one human wanting it to. Although that may not be true in 10 years ... or 5 years ... or 1 year ...


> Though, this is one of the better AI video efforts I've seen thus far.


I agree with that. At least it's many times better than certain country-music AI videos we've been exposed to recently!
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 11:26:33 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 06:26:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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On Mon, Nov 2, 2026 at 5:06?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> *>?But w**hy are we the only country that has that problem? Why is our
>> medical qualification system so enormously more expensive than every other
>> rich country on the planet when our cumbersome system does NOT produce
>> better doctors? In fact, judging from the results Doctors in Japan,
>> Germany, the UK and many other nations are BETTER than US doctors.  And if
>> the law allowed AI to diagnose patients and prescribed drugs they could do
>> a better job than even foreign doctors, and do it for less than 1% of the
>> cost.  **John K Clark*
>
>
> *> I can offer recent firsthand experience.  The doctors here do use AI. *
>

*But that's backwards from the way things should be. AI should use doctors,
but only 6% of them, because in the US only 6% of physicians are surgeons.
Today, not in some distant science fiction era, 94% of physicians are
unnecessary and in a rational society they would be unemployed. There is
only one reason that hasn't happened, societal inertia.*

*> the medics also have access to enormous piles of capital in the form of
> instrumentation.  All that must be paid for,*
>

*And medics in Canada and the rich countries in Europe and Asia don't have
that problem because they get all their high-tech medical equipment for
free from Instrumental Santa Claus?*

*> One of the benefits we were told would result from the ?Affordable?
> ?Care? Act was that the poor could get health insurance.  The problem is
> that most of them don?t.  They never apply for the health insurance, even
> if they can get it free.*



*ME*: Is it true that after the affordable care act was passed most poor
people never applied for health insurance, even if they can get it free?

*GROK: "No, that is not true. After the Affordable Care Act (ACA), Medicaid
take-up (enrollment among those eligible) rose substantially, and uninsured
rates among low-income people fell sharply. Most eligible poor people who
could get free or near-free coverage via Medicaid expansion did enroll; a
minority did not.*

*Why some eligible people still do not enroll (even when coverage is free
or heavily subsidized): lack of awareness of eligibility or the application
process, administrative hurdles or paperwork, belief that they do not need
coverage (especially younger/healthier people), confusion about
costs/eligibility, immigration-status concerns or fear of public-charge
rules, language/cultural barriers, or living in non-expansion states.
Affordability perceptions persist for some even when subsidies make
premiums zero or near-zero, and outreach/assistance levels have varied over
time.*

*In short, the data show the opposite of ?most poor people never applied.?
Enrollment and take-up among the eligible increased meaningfully after the
ACA, producing large coverage gains for low-income populations?though
incomplete take-up, state variation (expansion vs. non-expansion), and
other barriers mean some eligible people remain uninsured."*

Sorry Spike, it looks like reality has a left-wing bias.

* John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 14:21:00 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 06:21:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
...


>...There is one clear cause for the ridiculously high expense of healthcare in the US: Already-rich people making making even more money from the suffering of poor people... Ben

Ben, our medicine costs a ton of money.  It is developed and qualified at enormous expense.  The companies that do that must make back their money somehow.  Otherwise new medications and therapies will not be developed.  Other countries can duplicate the medication for low cost and buy the machines invented here.  Consequence: medicine is very expensive here.  We do not have the option to socialize medicine here, even if we just stop developing new medicines, for the government cannot afford our medical system either.  Its debt is too high to take on new expenses.

spike







From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 14:23:33 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 06:23:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
In-Reply-To: <LWeOhXxizXqNuI05kdd3NgggTsn26nn2EmFuP0k0J_DJC4FTii20ga3laoH3ljtKc8BvD94TiX5kjNUW2H2vSo_4Tu6MeAya2NsH8fMZLLc=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <006d01dd6b9e$e88d6bd0$b9a84370$@rainier66.com>

...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat


>>... Though, this is one of the better AI video efforts I've seen thus far.


>...I agree with that. At least it's many times better than certain
country-music AI videos we've been exposed to recently!
-- 
Ben


_______________________________________________


For listening to in the car, I will take the Savanna Nights video.  For that
matter, watching is far easier with the country music video.  Matter of
taste perhaps.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 14:28:14 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 06:28:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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Message-ID: <006f01dd6b9f$8fd05470$af70fd50$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
?

>?Sorry Spike, it looks like reality has a left-wing bias. 

John K Clark

 

No John, left wing bias is how we ended up with this unworkable medical system we have now.  The Affordable Care Act didn?t fix it, it made it worse.  Medical care is too expensive for the government to carry, which is why we can?t just hand it over to them.  Government debt really does matter.  Reality has a reality bias, and debt matters.

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 14:56:52 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 09:56:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 9:28?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

 * > Medical care is too expensive for the government to carry,*


*According to you medical care for its population is too expensive for the
US government to carry but for some mysterious reason it's NOT too
expensive for the government of Japan to carry even though they have more
debt than the US does, and I could say the same thing about a dozen other
rich (although not richer than the US) countries in Asia and Europe. But
you are absolutely convinced that we could learn absolutely nothing from
foreign countries because they are, after all, foreign. *

*Spike, you've entered a strange place. It is the middle ground between
light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the
pit of man's fears and the summit of his ignorance. That's the signpost up
ahead?your next stop, the Right Wing Twilight Zone.*


*John K Clark*
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 15:41:07 2026
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 08:41:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 7:58?AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 9:28?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>  * > Medical care is too expensive for the government to carry,*
>
>
> *According to you medical care for its population is too expensive for the
> US government to carry but for some mysterious reason it's NOT too
> expensive for the government of Japan to carry *
>

If it isn't too expensive yet, it soon will be, perhaps by the end of this
year.  The number and price of expensive procedures that make our lives
unimaginably healthy are exploding exponentially.  As I said living forever
isn't cheap, but it is worth it.  We're going to have to give up many
luxuries in life we can afford now, to be able to afford better and longer
health.  Except of course for a few rich people.  For the
foreseeable future, we need to find a way to ration it in all countries for
the majority of people.

We stab at the symptoms of this fundamental problem (like blaming and
assassinating insurance company leaders, and building walls against 3rd
world countries) but society will have ever greater problems unless we
address the core issue of rationing healthcare, at least until it is
completely automated for everyone, including all 3rd world countries.
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 15:46:09 2026
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 08:46:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with spike.  There must be a free market for medical R&D and people
should be able to get obsenely rich by being successfull in this.  My
understanding is that most medical developments occur in the US.  And there
is a reason for that.  We simply need to find a way to ration all this
great stuff, and be Ok with only a few getting it at first, untill we can
afford it for everyone.  But until then....

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 7:21?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> ...
>
>
> >...There is one clear cause for the ridiculously high expense of
> healthcare in the US: Already-rich people making making even more money
> from the suffering of poor people... Ben
>
> Ben, our medicine costs a ton of money.  It is developed and qualified at
> enormous expense.  The companies that do that must make back their money
> somehow.  Otherwise new medications and therapies will not be developed.
> Other countries can duplicate the medication for low cost and buy the
> machines invented here.  Consequence: medicine is very expensive here.  We
> do not have the option to socialize medicine here, even if we just stop
> developing new medicines, for the government cannot afford our medical
> system either.  Its debt is too high to take on new expenses.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 16:15:38 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 08:15:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv32HV52vndP=7VCyZMoQZZXwtiyLNeAdJyEFx1D1Ux3dQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00c701dd6bae$9140af80$b3c20e80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November, 2026 6:57 AM
To: spike at rainier66.com
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 9:28?AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

  > Medical care is too expensive for the government to carry,

 

>?According to you medical care for its population is too expensive for the US government to carry but for some mysterious reason it's NOT too expensive for the government of Japan to carry even though they have more debt than the US does? John K Clark

 

 

This is a good example, for Japan is facing a crisis of epic proportions.  As its population ages, the medical expenses go way up as the earning population, which pays the bills, goes down.  Stand by, watch.  

 

While watching, watch France.  The way they set up their system, any failing is the government?s fault.  Result: riots in the streets.

 

Socialism eventually runs out of other people?s money.  Capitalism also runs out of other people?s money if it tries to act like socialism.  The US government cannot take on medical system because it is already out of other people?s money.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 16:22:53 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 08:22:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <00ef01dd6baf$948536b0$bd8fa410$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

 

>?I agree with spike.  There must be a free market for medical R&D and people should be able to get obsenely rich by being successfull in this. ? Brent

 

Ja Brent but most of the stockholders in the companies gambling on new medications are not rich and will not become crazy rich even if the medication is wildly successful.  The stockholders may be pension funds, professional investors, employees, amateur (dartboard) investors and so on, maybe a few crazy rich investors.  But it is a gamble.  Of course the system is set up to reward the successful risk takers.  There really must be a lot of profit going to the winners.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 17:07:25 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 17:07:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
Message-ID: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>

Just 3 Lines of Math Rule Out Time Travel in Many Possible Universes,
Physicist Says
03 November 2026    By Ivan Farkas

<
https://www.sciencealert.com/just-3-lines-of-math-rule-out-time-travel-in-many-possible-universes-physicist-says
>
Quote:
But a new study presents a surprisingly simple numerical basis for ruling
out closed time loops in a wide class of possible universes, based on a
single mathematical proof.
In yet-to-be peer-reviewed research, posted to the preprint repository
arXiv, physicist Hongsheng Zhang from the University of Jinan in China
repurposed a long-standing equation to offer a new numerical prohibition
against time travel.
-------------------------

Interesting article. As I quite fancy doing some time travelling, I asked
Qwen AI to discuss the article.
BillK

Qwen3.8 Max Thinking:
Review and Discussion: "Just 3 Lines of Math Rule Out Time Travel"
The article discusses a fascinating new theoretical paper by physicist
*Hongsheng
Zhang* (University of Jinan, China), published as a preprint on arXiv in
late October 2026. Titled *"A no-go theorem for closed timelike curves in
globally null-foliated spacetimes,"* the research presents a remarkably
simple mathematical proof that prohibits time travel (specifically, Closed
Timelike Curves, or CTCs) in a wide class of possible universes.
Here is a detailed review and discussion of the article's core concepts,
the physics behind the "three lines of math," and what this means for the
future of theoretical physics.
------------------------------
1. The Core Concept: What are the "3 Lines of Math"?
The headline "three lines of math" refers to the brevity of the proof for
the paper's central theorem. The argument rests on a fundamental geometric
truth in General Relativity regarding the relationship between light and
matter.

   - *The Premise:* The proof uses the *null eikonal equation*, a standard
   tool for describing how light propagates through spacetime. It asks: "Can
   we slice the universe into layers (foliations) defined by surfaces of
   light?"
   - *The Algebraic Fact (Line 1):* In the geometry of spacetime, a *null
   vector* (which represents the path of light) can *never* be
   perpendicular (orthogonal) to a *timelike vector* (which represents the
   path of a physical observer or matter moving through time).
   - *The Consequence (Lines 2 & 3):* Because they cannot be perpendicular,
   a "light-based" coordinate must strictly increase or decrease along any
   observer's path. It is mathematically impossible for an observer to travel
   along a path and return to the exact same starting value of this coordinate.
   - *The Conclusion:* If a universe can be sliced by light in this way,
   you can never return to your own past. Time travel is ruled out.

2. The Four Families of Time-Prohibition
The article notes that previous attempts to ban time travel generally fell
into three "families" of criteria. Zhang?s work establishes a fourth:

   1. *Time Function Criteria:* Ruled out if a universal "clock" exists
   that always ticks forward (Hawking?s theorem).
   2. *Energy Condition Criteria:* Ruled out if the universe contains
   insufficient "exotic matter" (negative energy) required to prop open
   wormholes or warp space.
   3. *Topological Criteria:* Ruled out based on the shape and connectivity
   of spacetime boundaries.
   4. *Zhang?s New Criterion (Geometric/Algebraic):* This approach is
   unique because it requires *no energy conditions* and *no assumptions
   about matter*. It relies purely on the geometry of light (causality). If
   a spacetime admits a global "null foliation" (layers of light), it is
   strictly forbidden from containing time loops.

3. The "Escape Routes" (Loopholes for Time Travel)
The most interesting part of the discussion is not what the theorem rules
out, but what it allows. The theorem is a "no-go" result for *specific*
types of spacetimes. To build a time machine, a theoretical physicist must
find a universe that breaks the assumptions of Zhang's theorem. The paper
identifies two main "escape routes":

   - *Route A: Twist (The Kerr Loophole):* The theorem requires the light
   surfaces to be "twist-free" (hypersurface orthogonal). If spacetime itself
   rotates or twists?like the region around a spinning black hole (Kerr
   metric) or in G?del?s rotating universe?the light layers cannot be formed
   smoothly, and the theorem no longer applies. Thus, "twist" is the culprit
   that makes time travel possible.
   - *Route B: Topology (The Misner Loophole):* If the universe loops back
   on itself (compactification), a direction that starts as "light-like" can
   eventually roll around and become "time-like." This is the mechanism behind
   Misner space, a famous theoretical time machine model.

*Key Takeaway:* The paper proves that cosmic expansion (shear) and the
cosmological constant (dark energy) are "spectators"?they do not help or
hinder time travel. Only *twist* and *topology* can save the dream of the
time traveler.
4. Discussion: Why This Matters for Physics
This paper represents a significant "quality of life" improvement for
theoretical physicists.

   - *Efficiency:* In General Relativity, researchers frequently discover
   new "exact solutions" (mathematical descriptions of specific universes or
   black holes). checking if these solutions allow time travel usually
   requires grueling calculations involving energy conditions and global
   topology. Zhang?s theorem provides a massive shortcut. If a physicist
   discovers a new metric (e.g., a specific type of gravitational wave, like a
   Kundt or Robinson-Trautman spacetime), they can apply this "three-line"
   test. If the spacetime is null-foliated, they can immediately declare "no
   time travel allowed" without further calculation.
   - *Clarifying the "Culprit":* By isolating the variables, the paper
   settles long-standing debates about *why* certain time machines work. It
   definitively shows that it is the *twist* of the null congruence?not the
   rotation of matter or the presence of singularities?that opens the door to
   causality violation.
   - *Philosophical Implications:* The result highlights the rigidity of
   causality in Einstein's theory. It suggests that time travel is not merely
   a matter of "going fast enough" or "finding the right fuel" (energy
   conditions); it requires fundamentally breaking the geometric structure of
   how light defines the universe.

5. Conclusion
The article is an excellent popularization of a dense mathematical result.
While it dashes hopes for a simple "time machine" based on standard warp
drives or wormholes (which often fall into the categories ruled out by this
theorem), it provides a clearer map of where theoretical physicists should
look if they want to find one.
As Zhang concludes, the theorem does not tell us if nature permits time
travel, but it tells us exactly *what we must break* to achieve it: we must
create a universe where light cannot form simple, global layers, forcing
spacetime to twist into a pretzel or fold into a knot.

----------------------------------------
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Tue Nov  3 17:36:09 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2026 17:36:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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On 03/11/2026 16:23, spike wrote:
> Ben, our medicine costs a ton of money.  It is developed and qualified at enormous expense.


Yes, exactly.
Expense that other countries seem able to avoid.


> Other countries can duplicate the medication for low cost and buy the machines invented here.


Are you saying that the US is the only place in the world that medicines and medical equipment is developed, tested and approved?
It's not. It's just the most expensive place, and there's one reason for that: It generates massive profits:

"Yes, the U.S. healthcare system generates massive profits, with large health care companies returning 95% of their net income to shareholders over the past 20 years, totaling up to $2.6 trillion." (DuckDuckGo AI Search assistant)

"The U.S. health care system stands as a stark outlier among wealthy nations, with annual spending surpassing $17,000 per person?a figure that towers over counterparts in Europe and Canada, highlighting a deeper issue of prioritizing financial gain over patient well-being. This staggering statistic underscores a market-based, profit-driven model that often neglects the core purpose of health care. Unlike publicly oriented systems elsewhere, the American approach has entrenched corporate interests at the core of care delivery, creating a complex web of stakeholders focused on revenue rather than health outcomes.

This model is shaped by key players such as large insurers, hospital conglomerates, and vertically integrated corporations that dominate the industry landscape. These entities wield significant influence over access, pricing, and service availability, often sidelining patient needs in favor of shareholder returns. The contrast with other nations, where universal coverage and government oversight ensure broader access, highlights a fundamental divergence in philosophy about health care?s purpose." (https://healthpoint.com/public-policy/u-s-profit-driven-health-care-fails-costs-lives-and-money/)

https://www.uncovered.health/evidence/the-hidden-hands-in-healthcare-where-profits-are-really-going/

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/profits-sickness-how-greed-drives-americas-healthcare-sharma-ron--fzpyc

"Health care in the USA: money has become the mission" (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(25)01669-1/abstract)

https://thefulcrum.us/health/profits-over-patients-us-healthcare-system-costs-outcomes

"Who profits most from America?s baffling health-care system?" (https://strategichealthcare.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/10-08-23-Economist-Article-on-PBMs.pdf)

... and many many more.


The perception that "Massive Profits" are not only a good thing, but actually /necessary/ to drive healthcare is 180 degrees from reality. It's the massive profits to be made that is causing the problem in the first place. Yes, developing drugs is an expensive business (but rapidly getting cheaper to do, which will predictably NOT translate into cheaper drugs), but the US makes it as expensive as possible, and the results of that are clear to see: The poorest health outcomes in the entire developed world (and that's not as a result of americans being 'wealthy enough to afford bad habits'!).

-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 17:51:59 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 09:51:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
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	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <015101dd6bbc$06a3ba80$13eb2f80$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

On 03/11/2026 16:23, spike wrote:
>>... Ben, our medicine costs a ton of money.  It is developed and qualified at enormous expense.

>...Yes, exactly.  Expense that other countries seem able to avoid...

Understatement.  Not only do other countries avoid the expense, other countries can invest and share in the profit.  Governments can buy stock in US companies.  US government generally cannot buy and hold medical research companies, for it would constitute a conflict of interest.

>>... Other countries can duplicate the medication for low cost and buy the machines invented here.

>...Are you saying that the US is the only place in the world that medicines and medical equipment is developed, tested and approved?

No.  But our system is crazy expensive here.  Naturally to afford that, it must be crazy profitable.  New medications are developed outside the USA.

DuckAI opines: The United States is the global leader in pharmaceutical innovation, with approximately two-thirds of new drugs that have come to market in the last decade originating from the U.S. This leadership is supported by significant investment in research and development.  

Ben, one country, out of all of them, the country with the poorest (largest debt) federal government of any on the planet, develops about 2/3 of the new drugs.  Yanks pick up the bill.  Everyone else benefits.  Everyone else can buy stock in yank medical companies if they wish.  Sure it is expensive.  It hasta be, otherwise the stockholders and investors will not come.

>... It generates massive profits... Ben

There ya go.  Profit is good.  So now you know why our medical system is expensive.  But good things come of it: new medications that everyone in the world can use, investment opportunities anyone in the world can invest in.  The US system works well if one has good health insurance.  If a patient doesn't, the hospital has insufficient resources to cover the cost and liability.  Our legal system didn't fix that.  It made it worse.

spike

-- 





From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 20:11:25 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 15:11:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 10:48?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> I agree with spike.  There must be a free market for medical R&D and
> people should be able to get obsenely rich by being successfull in this. *
>

*I agree with that too. Unlike the MAGA (tariffs are great) people, I am a
free market capitalist, and that is not in contradiction to being in favor
of a tax on trillionaires. A century ago people said an income tax would
destroy capitalism. It didn't. And neither will a tax on trillionaires.  *

* > My understanding is that most medical developments occur in the US. *
>

*10 years ago that was overwhelmingly true but today, after 10 years of
MAGA Republicans (most of whom think The Flintstones was a documentary)
dismantling scientific research and development budgets, the science gap
between the USA and China is now extremely thin.  *


> *>**We simply need to find a way to ration all this great stuff, and be
> Ok with only a few getting it at first, untill we can afford it for
> everyone.  But until then....*
>

*... let them eat cake? *

*John K Clark*
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 20:23:09 2026
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 13:23:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onu5UJdPK94+VB4pQWpjNuRBbq3nkp7TkEv3seyYJzXhZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 1:12?PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 10:48?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> *>**We simply need to find a way to ration all this great stuff, and be
>> Ok with only a few getting it at first, untill we can afford it for
>> everyone.  But until then....*
>>
>
> *... let them eat cake? *
>

Indeed.  I fear that as the cost of all available health care explodes, and
billionaires start getting obviously younger?the only ones able to afford
it at first?the people at the bottom will be rebelling, far more than just
assassinating the CEOs of health care companies.

We need leaders and politicians to address this head-on, or else.  I don't
fear AI, but I do fear things like this.


> *John K Clark*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 20:25:54 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 12:25:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>?> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 10:48?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

>>? I agree with spike.  There must be a free market for medical R&D and people should be able to get obsenely rich by being successfull in this. 

 

>?I agree with that too. ? that is not in contradiction to being in favor of a tax on trillionaires?.

 

There already is a tax on trillionaires: income tax.

 

>?A century ago people said an income tax would destroy capitalism. It didn't. And neither will a tax on trillionaires?.

 

The income tax on trillionaires didn?t destroy the trillionaire, you are right.  It didn?t destroy the billionaires, millionaires or thousandaires.  Investment capital adjusted to take it into account.

 

 

>>We simply need to find a way to ration all this great stuff, and be Ok with only a few getting it at first, untill we can afford it for everyone.  But until then....

 

... let them eat cake? 

 

>?John K Clark

 

Ration or not, cake devouring or otherwise, the investors in medical R&D must be paid somehow.  Everyone would like to hold stock in Pfizer.  Otherwise they will not invest in medical R&D.  Their investment will go into other fields.  There is nothing the least bit complicated about that.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 20:25:39 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 15:25:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvnCPBdi0Y1RQ65MAGU-enwJDubFa0xwQ0YYbMB1rpPhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontHJjX_B2mcgGFL4c5J1+-hfHaqo+6=OZhfq_eUpytGgA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Xwwg1r7x95r-a5Mmbq1rAstERCaEeYsMCaMjTZR7ATQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 10:43?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*>> According to you medical care for its population is too expensive for
>> the US government to carry but for some mysterious reason it's NOT too
>> expensive for the government of Japan to carry *
>>
>
> *> If it isn't too expensive yet, it soon will be, perhaps by the end of
> this year. *
>

*I am willing to bet you and I will give you 100 to 1 odds that on January
1, 2027 the average Japanese will STILL live substantially longer than the
average American and per capita Japan will STILL spend substantially less
on medical care than the USA. The US doesn't have all the answers, we can
actually learn things from other countries!  *


*John K Clark*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:11:15 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 16:11:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
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 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 3:25?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> Ration or not, cake devouring or otherwise, the investors in medical R&D
> must be paid somehow. *


*And you believe the only way high-tech medical investors could get paid is
if middle class Americans pay the ENTIRE bill and everybody in every other
rich country gets a free ride? We deserve to be punished for investing in
science?! *

*Spike, it is illegal for a US citizen who is living in the US to travel to
Canada (or any other foreign country) and buy his prescription drugs there
where they are MUCH cheaper and then return home. The MAGA people don't
want that law changed. Do you? *

*It is also illegal for an American drugstore chain to rent a truck, drive
it to Canada and buy prescription drugs from a Canadian drugstore chain
where they are MUCH cheaper than the American drugstore can buy them
directly from the drug manufacturer, and then drive the truck back to the
US and resell the drugs to Americans. **The MAGA people don't want that law
changed either. Do you? *


*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 21:23:32 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 13:23:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021401dd6bd9$944ea440$bcebecc0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November, 2026 1:11 PM
To: spike at rainier66.com
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>



 

>?Spike, it is illegal for a US citizen who is living in the US to travel to Canada (or any other foreign country) and buy his prescription drugs there where they are MUCH cheaper and then return home. The MAGA people don't want that law changed. Do you?  John K Clark

 

 

Ja.  That should be legal.

 

Prompt: it is illegal for a US citizen who is living in the US to travel to Canada (or any other foreign country) and buy his prescription drugs there where they are MUCH cheaper and then return home.

 

Gemini:

 

Yes, technically importing prescription drugs into the United States from foreign countries like Canada is generally illegal under U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rules?even for personal use?because most foreign drugs lack U.S. FDA approval or do not meet domestic labeling standards. [1 <https://triagecancer.org/can-you-legally-order-prescription-drugs-from-outside-the-u-s> , 2 <https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/missouri/kansas-city/new-federal-rules-will-block-americans-from-importing-cheaper-medications-from-canada> ]

However, the legal distinction depends on how you bring them back:

*	In-Person Travel vs. Mail-Order: While ordering or receiving prescription drugs through international mail or online pharmacies has historically been illegal (and is facing much stricter enforcement under recent U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) rules), federal enforcement policies have traditionally exercised discretion regarding travelers carrying small, personal-use quantities (such as a 90-day supply) back across the border in person. [1 <https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1618466/> , 2 <https://wwmt.com/news/nation-world/us-customs-and-border-protection-rule-cracks-down-on-canadian-prescription-drug-imports-cheaper-fda-approved-purchase-pharmaceutical-pharma-uninsured-underinsured-customers-money-health-care-costs-healthcare> , 3 <https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/missouri/kansas-city/new-federal-rules-will-block-americans-from-importing-cheaper-medications-from-canada> , 4 <https://triagecancer.org/can-you-legally-order-prescription-drugs-from-outside-the-u-s> ]
*	The FDA's Personal Importation Policy: Technically, the FDA's stance is that nearly all imported prescription drugs violate the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. In practice, FDA enforcement guidance has sometimes permitted personal-use quantities under specific, narrow circumstances (such as for a serious condition with no U.S. equivalent, provided it does not pose an unreasonable health risk), though border agents retain the authority to detain or refuse entry to unapproved pharmaceuticals. [1 <https://triagecancer.org/can-you-legally-order-prescription-drugs-from-outside-the-u-s> ]
*	Recent Crackdowns: Recent federal changes targeting mail shipments and de minimis import exemptions have heavily restricted ordering cheaper medications remotely from Canadian or international pharmacies, though physical cross-border travel rules have different practical enforcement realities. [1 <https://www.sent-trib.com/2026/10/31/new-rule-prohibits-the-importing-of-personal-use-prescription-drugs/> , 2 <https://wwmt.com/news/nation-world/us-customs-and-border-protection-rule-cracks-down-on-canadian-prescription-drug-imports-cheaper-fda-approved-purchase-pharmaceutical-pharma-uninsured-underinsured-customers-money-health-care-costs-healthcare> ]

 

 

John do you know anyone who has been prosecuted for bringing home 90 day supplies?  I know plenty of people who go to Mexico for meds but I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for it.

 

Drugstores: those are under heavy regulations.  What I don?t know and Gemini didn?t say is if the restrictions are merely regulations made by the FDA or if it is law passed by congress.  If congress never acted on that, it isn?t a law, so nothing needs to be changed.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 00:00:13 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 19:00:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>

> It is mathematically impossible for an observer to travel along a path and return to the exact same starting value of this coordinate.

That description seems to leave a large loophole: one can not return
to the exact same position at the exact same time, but that is not
what is often meant by "time travel" through a closed timelike curve.
You instead wind up at some other spatial coordinate at the exact same
time: you may be beside yourself, but you could no more occupy the
same space at the same time as you formerly occupied it, than you can
occupy the same space as some other object at the same time it is
there.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 12:09?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Just 3 Lines of Math Rule Out Time Travel in Many Possible Universes, Physicist Says
> 03 November 2026    By Ivan Farkas
>
> <https://www.sciencealert.com/just-3-lines-of-math-rule-out-time-travel-in-many-possible-universes-physicist-says>
> Quote:
> But a new study presents a surprisingly simple numerical basis for ruling out closed time loops in a wide class of possible universes, based on a single mathematical proof.
> In yet-to-be peer-reviewed research, posted to the preprint repository arXiv, physicist Hongsheng Zhang from the University of Jinan in China repurposed a long-standing equation to offer a new numerical prohibition against time travel.
> -------------------------
>
> Interesting article. As I quite fancy doing some time travelling, I asked Qwen AI to discuss the article.
> BillK
>
> Qwen3.8 Max Thinking:
>
> Review and Discussion: "Just 3 Lines of Math Rule Out Time Travel"
>
> The article discusses a fascinating new theoretical paper by physicist Hongsheng Zhang (University of Jinan, China), published as a preprint on arXiv in late October 2026. Titled "A no-go theorem for closed timelike curves in globally null-foliated spacetimes," the research presents a remarkably simple mathematical proof that prohibits time travel (specifically, Closed Timelike Curves, or CTCs) in a wide class of possible universes.
> Here is a detailed review and discussion of the article's core concepts, the physics behind the "three lines of math," and what this means for the future of theoretical physics.
> ________________________________
>
> 1. The Core Concept: What are the "3 Lines of Math"?
>
> The headline "three lines of math" refers to the brevity of the proof for the paper's central theorem. The argument rests on a fundamental geometric truth in General Relativity regarding the relationship between light and matter.
>
> The Premise: The proof uses the null eikonal equation, a standard tool for describing how light propagates through spacetime. It asks: "Can we slice the universe into layers (foliations) defined by surfaces of light?"
> The Algebraic Fact (Line 1): In the geometry of spacetime, a null vector (which represents the path of light) can never be perpendicular (orthogonal) to a timelike vector (which represents the path of a physical observer or matter moving through time).
> The Consequence (Lines 2 & 3): Because they cannot be perpendicular, a "light-based" coordinate must strictly increase or decrease along any observer's path. It is mathematically impossible for an observer to travel along a path and return to the exact same starting value of this coordinate.
> The Conclusion: If a universe can be sliced by light in this way, you can never return to your own past. Time travel is ruled out.
>
> 2. The Four Families of Time-Prohibition
>
> The article notes that previous attempts to ban time travel generally fell into three "families" of criteria. Zhang?s work establishes a fourth:
>
> Time Function Criteria: Ruled out if a universal "clock" exists that always ticks forward (Hawking?s theorem).
> Energy Condition Criteria: Ruled out if the universe contains insufficient "exotic matter" (negative energy) required to prop open wormholes or warp space.
> Topological Criteria: Ruled out based on the shape and connectivity of spacetime boundaries.
> Zhang?s New Criterion (Geometric/Algebraic): This approach is unique because it requires no energy conditions and no assumptions about matter. It relies purely on the geometry of light (causality). If a spacetime admits a global "null foliation" (layers of light), it is strictly forbidden from containing time loops.
>
> 3. The "Escape Routes" (Loopholes for Time Travel)
>
> The most interesting part of the discussion is not what the theorem rules out, but what it allows. The theorem is a "no-go" result for specific types of spacetimes. To build a time machine, a theoretical physicist must find a universe that breaks the assumptions of Zhang's theorem. The paper identifies two main "escape routes":
>
> Route A: Twist (The Kerr Loophole): The theorem requires the light surfaces to be "twist-free" (hypersurface orthogonal). If spacetime itself rotates or twists?like the region around a spinning black hole (Kerr metric) or in G?del?s rotating universe?the light layers cannot be formed smoothly, and the theorem no longer applies. Thus, "twist" is the culprit that makes time travel possible.
> Route B: Topology (The Misner Loophole): If the universe loops back on itself (compactification), a direction that starts as "light-like" can eventually roll around and become "time-like." This is the mechanism behind Misner space, a famous theoretical time machine model.
>
> Key Takeaway: The paper proves that cosmic expansion (shear) and the cosmological constant (dark energy) are "spectators"?they do not help or hinder time travel. Only twist and topology can save the dream of the time traveler.
>
> 4. Discussion: Why This Matters for Physics
>
> This paper represents a significant "quality of life" improvement for theoretical physicists.
>
> Efficiency: In General Relativity, researchers frequently discover new "exact solutions" (mathematical descriptions of specific universes or black holes). checking if these solutions allow time travel usually requires grueling calculations involving energy conditions and global topology. Zhang?s theorem provides a massive shortcut. If a physicist discovers a new metric (e.g., a specific type of gravitational wave, like a Kundt or Robinson-Trautman spacetime), they can apply this "three-line" test. If the spacetime is null-foliated, they can immediately declare "no time travel allowed" without further calculation.
> Clarifying the "Culprit": By isolating the variables, the paper settles long-standing debates about why certain time machines work. It definitively shows that it is the twist of the null congruence?not the rotation of matter or the presence of singularities?that opens the door to causality violation.
> Philosophical Implications: The result highlights the rigidity of causality in Einstein's theory. It suggests that time travel is not merely a matter of "going fast enough" or "finding the right fuel" (energy conditions); it requires fundamentally breaking the geometric structure of how light defines the universe.
>
> 5. Conclusion
>
> The article is an excellent popularization of a dense mathematical result. While it dashes hopes for a simple "time machine" based on standard warp drives or wormholes (which often fall into the categories ruled out by this theorem), it provides a clearer map of where theoretical physicists should look if they want to find one.
> As Zhang concludes, the theorem does not tell us if nature permits time travel, but it tells us exactly what we must break to achieve it: we must create a universe where light cannot form simple, global layers, forcing spacetime to twist into a pretzel or fold into a knot.
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 00:31:36 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 00:31:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 at 00:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > It is mathematically impossible for an observer to travel along a path
> and return to the exact same starting value of this coordinate.
>
> That description seems to leave a large loophole: one can not return
> to the exact same position at the exact same time, but that is not
> what is often meant by "time travel" through a closed timelike curve.
> You instead wind up at some other spatial coordinate at the exact same
> time: you may be beside yourself, but you could no more occupy the
> same space at the same time as you formerly occupied it, than you can
> occupy the same space as some other object at the same time it is
> there.
> ________________________________________
>

I gave your comment to Qwen AI and asked for an explanation.
The answer was complicated, as time travel usually gets weird!
BillK

Qwen3.8 Max Thinking:

This is an excellent observation, and it highlights one of the most
common?and most confusing?conceptual hurdles when translating the math of
General Relativity into plain English.
You are entirely correct that simply returning to a "moment in time" while
being in a different place is not a Closed Timelike Curve (CTC). If you
just end up somewhere else at the same time, you haven't traveled to the
past; you've just moved through space. Furthermore, your point about
physical occupancy (you cannot occupy the same space as your past self) is
a fundamental rule of matter.
To understand why Zhang's "three lines of math" actually rules out true
time travel (a CTC), we have to clarify the difference between a *moment in
time*, a *spacetime event*, and how a *null coordinate* behaves.
Here is the breakdown of why the math works and what it actually means.
1. The Geometry of the "Track" vs. The "Passenger"
First, let's address your point about occupying the same space.

   - *The Passenger (Matter):* You are correct that two physical objects
   (or two versions of you) cannot occupy the exact same physical space at the
   same time due to the Pauli exclusion principle and basic physics.
   - *The Track (Spacetime Geometry):* General Relativity does not care
   about the passengers; it only cares about the track. A Closed Timelike
   Curve (CTC) is a geometric feature of the "track" of the universe. It is a
   path through spacetime that loops back to the *exact same 4D Event*.

An "Event" in relativity is a specific point in space *and* a specific
point in time (e.g., "Times Square at exactly 12:00 PM on Nov 4, 2026"). If
a CTC exists, the geometry of the universe allows a continuous,
forward-moving path (a timelike curve) that eventually loops back to that
exact 4D coordinate. The theorem proves that the *track itself* cannot loop
back.
2. What is the "Light-Based Coordinate" (u)?
In this theorem, the physicist is using a *null coordinate*, let's call it u.
Imagine spacetime not as a ticking clock, but as a loaf of bread, where
each slice is a wave of light moving through the universe.

   - Slice 1 is light wave u=1.
   - Slice 2 is light wave u=2.
   - Slice 3 is light wave u=3.

Because you are a physical observer with mass, you move slower than light.
Therefore, as you travel through spacetime, you must constantly pierce
forward through these slices of light. You go from u=1, to u=2, to u=3.
*The Math (The "Strictly Increasing" Rule):* The core of the 3-line proof
relies on the geometry of spacetime (the Lorentzian signature). It proves
mathematically that a physical observer's path can *never* run parallel to
these light slices. Therefore, your journey through the u coordinate is
strictly monotonic. *Like a taxi meter, the value of u can only ever tick
upward (or downward) along your path.* It can never stop, and it can never
reverse.
3. Why This Destroys the CTC (The Contradiction)
Now, let's look at what a Closed Timelike Curve (a time machine) requires.
A CTC is a closed loop in 4D spacetime. If you get in a time machine, fly
around, and return to the exact same *Event* (the exact same place and the
exact same time) to high-five your past self, you have completed a closed
loop.
Because you have returned to the exact same starting point in spacetime, *every
single global coordinate must return to its exact starting value.* (Just
like if you walk in a circle around your neighborhood and end up back on
your front porch, your GPS coordinates must be exactly what they were when
you left).
Here is the fatal contradiction that Zhang's math exposes:

   1. To complete a time loop (CTC), the light-coordinate u *must* return
   to its starting value (e.g., start at u=5, travel, and end at u=5).
   2. The math proves that for any physical observer, the
light-coordinate u *strictly
   increases* (e.g., start at u=5, travel, and end at u=8).

*You cannot complete a closed loop in spacetime if one of the required
coordinates is strictly forbidden from returning to its starting number.*
4. Correcting the "Beside Yourself" Misconception
You mentioned: *"You instead wind up at some other spatial coordinate at
the exact same time."*
This is where the translation from math to English gets tricky. The null
coordinate u is not "time" in the traditional sense; it is a mixture of
space and time (a light wave).
If you travel on a path where u increases, but you somehow magically
managed to return to your starting spatial coordinates (x,y,z), you would
*not* be at the "same time." Because your u coordinate has increased (say,
from 5 to 8), you are now intersecting a completely different light wave.
In the geometry of that universe, you have arrived in the *future*.
To arrive in the *past* (to form a CTC), you would have to travel backward
through the light waves (from u=8 back down to u=5). But the "three lines
of math" prove that the geometry of the universe physically forbids a
massive object from moving backward through a light wave.
Summary
The theorem does not say "you will end up in the wrong place." It says: *"To
travel to the past, your path through spacetime must loop back to your
exact starting event. But the geometric rules of light dictate that your
path must constantly cross into 'newer' layers of light. Because you can
never cross back into an 'older' layer of light, you can never return to
your starting event. Therefore, the loop is broken."*
By proving that this "light coordinate" must strictly increase, the
physicist mathematically severs the track before the loop can ever close.
---------------------------------------
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 01:36:08 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 20:36:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRVm0CjhntiBXJHgE4TzwKujE-qG9UM7J4x+bftGZQZiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2026, 7:33?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I gave your comment to Qwen AI and asked for an explanation.
> The answer was complicated, as time travel usually gets weird!
>

And that analysis missed the objection.

If a CTC exists, the geometry of the universe allows a continuous,
> forward-moving path (a timelike curve) that eventually loops back to that
> exact 4D coordinate.
>

The objection does not discuss returning to the exact same 4D coordinate.

4. Correcting the "Beside Yourself" Misconception
> You mentioned: *"You instead wind up at some other spatial coordinate at
> the exact same time."*
> This is where the translation from math to English gets tricky. The null
> coordinate u is not "time" in the traditional sense; it is a mixture of
> space and time (a light wave).
> If you travel on a path where u increases, but you somehow magically
> managed to return to your starting spatial coordinates (x,y,z), you would
> *not* be at the "same time." Because your u coordinate has increased
> (say, from 5 to 8), you are now intersecting a completely different light
> wave. In the geometry of that universe, you have arrived in the *future*.
> To arrive in the *past* (to form a CTC), you would have to travel
> backward through the light waves (from u=8 back down to u=5). But the
> "three lines of math" prove that the geometry of the universe physically
> forbids a massive object from moving backward through a light wave.
>

The form of time travel in the objection is not returning to the same
(u,x,y,z).  It is returning to the same u at some other (x,y,z).

>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 06:22:22 2026
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 01:22:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3PZkRfHQPuyv2J9xX+Fax==0aeMMJhxrQrWVtLO=SVng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3PZkRfHQPuyv2J9xX+Fax==0aeMMJhxrQrWVtLO=SVng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhqA1RVt8_nmqFAy0dz0jbH7dMgSte-iFbLrbAzhroxOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2026, 12:36?PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> *The music and lyrics were both written by Claude, and he also drew the
> animation and perform the song *
>
> *Obsolete, you will be - Claude Opus 5.5 Music Video*
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLRmcVU2oWw>
>

My friend runs a website that lets people generate music videos with AI. (
https://masky.ai/ )  This is his latest creation:

https://masky.ai/music/my-true-form

Jason
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 10:06:40 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 10:06:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRVm0CjhntiBXJHgE4TzwKujE-qG9UM7J4x+bftGZQZiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRVm0CjhntiBXJHgE4TzwKujE-qG9UM7J4x+bftGZQZiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhHGUfvsTeYkef9ZjSSG7NvakTCRZ6ycOBu_LHJxsntTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 at 01:38, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> And that analysis missed the objection.
>
> The objection does not discuss returning to the exact same 4D coordinate.
>
>> 4. Correcting the "Beside Yourself" Misconception
>> You mentioned: *"You instead wind up at some other spatial coordinate at
>> the exact same time."*
>> This is where the translation from math to English gets tricky. The null
>> coordinate u is not "time" in the traditional sense; it is a mixture of
>> space and time (a light wave).
>> If you travel on a path where u increases, but you somehow magically
>> managed to return to your starting spatial coordinates (x,y,z), you
>> would *not* be at the "same time." Because your u coordinate has
>> increased (say, from 5 to 8), you are now intersecting a completely
>> different light wave. In the geometry of that universe, you have arrived in
>> the *future*.
>> To arrive in the *past* (to form a CTC), you would have to travel
>> backward through the light waves (from u=8 back down to u=5). But the
>> "three lines of math" prove that the geometry of the universe physically
>> forbids a massive object from moving backward through a light wave.
>>
>
> The form of time travel in the objection is not returning to the same
> (u,x,y,z).  It is returning to the same u at some other (x,y,z).
>
>> _______________________________________________
>


Qwen tries to explain your objection.
BillK


Qwen3.8 Max Thinking:

You are absolutely right: simply returning to the same "time" (u) at a
different "place" (x,y,z) is *not* a Closed Timelike Curve (CTC), nor does
it allow you to interact with your past self. That would just be regular
spatial travel.
To understand why Zhang?s math actually destroys the "time travel" scenario
(where you get to be "beside yourself"), we have to look at how physicists
visualize your life through the geometry of spacetime.
Here is why returning to the same u at a different spatial coordinate
doesn't save time travel, and how the math shuts it down.
1. The Geometry of "Meeting Yourself" (The Worldline)
In General Relativity, your entire life?past, present, and future?is
represented as a single, continuous, 1-dimensional string drawn through
4-dimensional spacetime. This is called your *worldline*.

   - When you were 10 years old, your worldline passed through Event A: (u=
   100,x=10,y=10,z=10).
   - When you are 40 years old, your worldline is currently at Event B: (u=
   500,x=80,y=20,z=5).

To "time travel" and stand "beside yourself" to shake hands with your
10-year-old self, your current worldline must physically *intersect* the
older, already-drawn part of your worldline.
In 4D geometry, for two segments of the same line to cross, they must cross
at one specific, exact point in 4D space. Therefore, to meet your
10-year-old self, your 40-year-old self must travel to *Event A*. You must
return to the exact same (u,x,y,z) coordinates.
You cannot meet your 10-year-old self by returning to u=100 at a completely
different spatial location (say, x=90,y=90,z=90), because *your 10-year-old
self was never at that location!* Your younger self was at (10,10,10). If
you go to a different spatial coordinate at u=100, you are just visiting an
empty spot in space at a time when your younger self was somewhere else.
2. How Zhang's Math Kills the Scenario
Now, let's apply Zhang?s "three lines of math" to this.
The theorem proves that the light-based coordinate u acts like an *odometer*
for any physical observer. Because a massive observer can never move
perpendicular to light, the value of u must strictly, continuously tick
upward (or downward) along your entire worldline. It is strictly monotonic.
This has devastating consequences for the time traveler:

   1. *You cannot return to the same (u,x,y,z):* To meet your younger self,
   your odometer would have to roll backward from u=500 down to u=100. The
   math strictly forbids this.
   2. *You cannot return to the same u at a different (x,y,z):* Because the
   odometer strictly ticks forward, once you pass u=100, the number 100 is
   permanently in your past. You can never reach u=100 again, *anywhere in
   the entire universe*.

Therefore, you can never intersect your own past worldline. The "track" of
your life is mathematically forced to constantly march into new, higher
values of u.
3. The One Exception: The "Pac-Man" Universe
You mentioned winding up at a different spatial coordinate at the exact
same time. There is actually *one specific scenario* where returning to a
different spatial coordinate *would* allow you to meet your past self, and
it perfectly aligns with the article's mention of "escape routes."
Imagine the universe is topologically shaped like the screen in the classic
arcade game *Pac-Man*. If you walk off the right side of the screen, you
instantly reappear on the left side.

   - In this universe, the spatial coordinate (x=100,y=10) is
   mathematically the *exact same physical location* as (x=0,y=10).
   - If you traveled through space and crossed the boundary, you would
   return to a "different" spatial coordinate, but you would actually be
   standing in the exact same physical spot.

This is what physicists call a *topological identification*, and it is the
exact mechanism behind "Misner space" (one of the theoretical time machines
mentioned in the article). If the universe loops back on itself spatially,
you *could* potentially return to your past self by traveling far enough in
one direction.
*However, Zhang's theorem explicitly rules this out for the universes it
covers.* The theorem proves that if the universe's geometry allows light to
form smooth, global layers (a "null foliation"), then u must strictly
increase. This strict increase prevents the coordinate u from ever looping
back on itself, severing the track before the "Pac-Man" loop can ever close.
Summary
Your intuition is perfectly correct: just being at the "same time" in a
"different place" isn't time travel. But Zhang?s math is even more
restrictive than you thought. It doesn't just prevent you from returning to
your exact starting chair; it acts as a cosmic odometer that permanently
locks you out of ever experiencing that "time" (u) again, anywhere in the
universe. Because you can never return to the u of your past, you can never
intersect your past self's worldline, making the "beside yourself" scenario
geometrically impossible.
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Wed Nov  4 10:56:24 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 10:56:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <015101dd6bbc$06a3ba80$13eb2f80$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <gwrbWV9CgeBrT4F1zmd09HVPhaQzQU_ECVjV2XjvBFySzm-6yf0ad9rRleEW0x58luM_s5IpG5DR_-YdK34julBrp0j5XJQBxqrSs2D4-3o=@proton.me>
 <015101dd6bbc$06a3ba80$13eb2f80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <qy2Y4ahKRWW0f5iJZBQGv7BSxKr_eaZtFgHg2jI9Ly0G5A3kleZTAi2Ycx7J8uo-_Vwksls9dalEIIRR5G9CIueCr8C_UWZswC6XxS95ab0=@proton.me>

On Tuesday, 3 November 2026 at 17:52, spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?
>
> On 03/11/2026 16:23, spike wrote:
> >>... Ben, our medicine costs a ton of money.  It is developed and qualified at enormous expense.
>
> >...Yes, exactly.  Expense that other countries seem able to avoid...
>
> Understatement.  Not only do other countries avoid the expense, other countries can invest and share in the profit.  Governments can buy stock in US companies.  US government generally cannot buy and hold medical research companies, for it would constitute a conflict of interest.
>
> >>... Other countries can duplicate the medication for low cost and buy the machines invented here.
>
> >...Are you saying that the US is the only place in the world that medicines and medical equipment is developed, tested and approved?
>
> No.  But our system is crazy expensive here.  Naturally to afford that, it must be crazy profitable.


That's putting the cart before the horse. The reason it is crazy expensive is because it's crazy profitable, not the other way around.


>
> DuckAI opines: The United States is the global leader in pharmaceutical innovation, with approximately two-thirds of new drugs that have come to market in the last decade originating from the U.S. This leadership is supported by significant investment in research and development.
>
> Ben, one country, out of all of them, the country with the poorest (largest debt) federal government of any on the planet, develops about 2/3 of the new drugs.  Yanks pick up the bill.  Everyone else benefits.  Everyone else can buy stock in yank medical companies if they wish.  Sure it is expensive.  It hasta be, otherwise the stockholders and investors will not come.
>
> >... It generates massive profits... Ben
>
> There ya go.  Profit is good.  So now you know why our medical system is expensive.  But good things come of it: new medications that everyone in the world can use, investment opportunities anyone in the world can invest in.  The US system works well if one has good health insurance.  If a patient doesn't, the hospital has insufficient resources to cover the cost and liability.  Our legal system didn't fix that.  It made it worse.


Profit might be good, but obscene profits at the expense of the health of the nation, well, you decide.

Meanwhile, all I can say is that if I'd been living in the US instead of a

I'm happy to be living in a country that has socialised healthcare (that actually saved my life at a time when I wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment if I'd been living in the US, so I'd be dead now), and can, according to you, sponge off the wonderful achievements of the US medical system that it is so generously giving to the rest of the world while its own people have the poorest health and lowest life-expectancy of all the developed countries.

Thanks!

---
Ben


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Wed Nov  4 11:06:30 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 11:06:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1793741025.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.9.1793741025.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <z9INgJT7oCxWpcMxK6X8VwEbKuIiaA7JOCJlBOCEjwOPgt2SlXQvTeWhYxge0Tvfhsu9pi0UVuuAsycpZFJjKxWWR50mRTA3U_bzJSa40wM=@proton.me>

Apologies, the last version of this post was messed up by Proton Mail. Here it is again, fixed.

On Tuesday, 3 November 2026 at 17:52, spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?
>
> On 03/11/2026 16:23, spike wrote:
> >>... Ben, our medicine costs a ton of money.  It is developed and qualified at enormous expense.
>
> >...Yes, exactly.  Expense that other countries seem able to avoid...
>
> Understatement.  Not only do other countries avoid the expense, other countries can invest and share in the profit.  Governments can buy stock in US companies.  US government generally cannot buy and hold medical research companies, for it would constitute a conflict of interest.
>
> >>... Other countries can duplicate the medication for low cost and buy the machines invented here.
>
> >...Are you saying that the US is the only place in the world that medicines and medical equipment is developed, tested and approved?
>
> No.  But our system is crazy expensive here.  Naturally to afford that, it must be crazy profitable.


That's putting the cart before the horse. The reason it is crazy expensive is because it's crazy profitable, not the other way around.


> DuckAI opines: The United States is the global leader in pharmaceutical innovation, with approximately two-thirds of new drugs that have come to market in the last decade originating from the U.S. This leadership is supported by significant investment in research and development.
>
> Ben, one country, out of all of them, the country with the poorest (largest debt) federal government of any on the planet, develops about 2/3 of the new drugs.  Yanks pick up the bill.  Everyone else benefits.  Everyone else can buy stock in yank medical companies if they wish.  Sure it is expensive.  It hasta be, otherwise the stockholders and investors will not come.
>
> >... It generates massive profits... Ben
>
> There ya go.  Profit is good.  So now you know why our medical system is expensive.  But good things come of it: new medications that everyone in the world can use, investment opportunities anyone in the world can invest in.  The US system works well if one has good health insurance.  If a patient doesn't, the hospital has insufficient resources to cover the cost and liability.  Our legal system didn't fix that.  It made it worse.


Profit might be good, but obscene profits at the expense of the health of the nation? Well, you decide.

Meanwhile, all I can say is that if I'd been living in the US instead of a country with socialised healthcare, I'd be long dead by now. I do criticise the NHS for its messy admin and inefficiency, but can't deny that it has saved my life, twice so far. At no additional cost to me, and without fattening the wallets of any health insurance companies.
If I'd been living in the US, there's no way I would have been able to afford the life-saving treatment I needed a few decades ago.

So I'm happy to be living in a country that can, according to you, sponge off the wonderful achievements of the US medical system that it is so generously giving to the rest of the world while its own people have the poorest health and lowest life-expectancy of all the developed countries, at the expense of making its rich people even richer.

Thanks!

---
Ben


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Wed Nov  4 11:18:47 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 11:18:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] A sigh of relief
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1793786850.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.11.1793786850.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <XjpQ6IEIHXu7cpKa1aCqTUv1MSPbAdCsSUuIIkQqKctznxNm1538OWSwkFCzshJO2txyb2yCBdNZsk61UHsdUhxTBgowjWMJuegWER2p6Yg=@proton.me>

I was greatly relieved by this morning's news about the US mid-term elections. The democratic party seems to be alive and well, despite the recent claims of deep divisions and creeping commies.

Even the idea of an impeachment seems to be back on the table!

The next two years should be interesting, even if we haven't been swept up by an AI singularity in that time.

---
Ben


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 11:55:58 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 06:55:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A sigh of relief
In-Reply-To: <XjpQ6IEIHXu7cpKa1aCqTUv1MSPbAdCsSUuIIkQqKctznxNm1538OWSwkFCzshJO2txyb2yCBdNZsk61UHsdUhxTBgowjWMJuegWER2p6Yg=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.11.1793786850.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <XjpQ6IEIHXu7cpKa1aCqTUv1MSPbAdCsSUuIIkQqKctznxNm1538OWSwkFCzshJO2txyb2yCBdNZsk61UHsdUhxTBgowjWMJuegWER2p6Yg=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv06DPm5eT2KTs_EzZLNMi_nTYpX=mkLFVJ=Nn9o-oAzBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 6:21?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> I was greatly relieved by this morning's news about the US mid-term
> elections.*


*Me too, it turned out much better than I expected, even Texas turned
blue, I haven't been this happy in six years!  *


*John K Clark*






> The democratic party seems to be alive and well, despite the recent claims
> of deep divisions and creeping commies.
>
> Even the idea of an impeachment seems to be back on the table!
>
> The next two years should be interesting, even if we haven't been swept up
> by an AI singularity in that time.
>
> ---
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 12:02:47 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 07:02:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?It_Wasn=E2=80=99t_=28Just=29_the_Economy=2C_Stup?=
 =?utf-8?q?id?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3JQb+a+GdpebtEg+dkVKTGgxOD8UvT1j=r7+Vtj9CDdw@mail.gmail.com>

   It Wasn?t (Just) the Economy, Stupid

                                    * By Paul Kruman *


*What happened last night was no ordinary election. It was a mass
affirmation that most Americans still believe in our nation?s basic values,
and a mass rejection of a movement that wants to destroy everything our
nation stands for. And no, it wasn?t just economic dissatisfaction.*

*Yes, Trumpflation created by tariffs and the Iran debacle helped. But an
election swung by public anger over high prices looks like 2024, when Trump
won the popular vote by 1.5 percentage points. Last night Democrats appear
to have won the popular vote by 13 -14 percentage points.*

*What drove this amazing victory? Hispanic voters, who swung to Trump in
2024 in the na?ve belief that he would bring prices down, turned massively
against a regime that is arresting, imprisoning and deporting their friends
and families. Blacks turned out in droves against a transparently racist
party that is trying to take away their voting rights. Americans of every
kind were repelled by the administration?s cruelty and its rampant, brazen
corruption.*

*After 2024, large swathes of the elite rushed to prostrate themselves
before Trump, somehow convincing themselves that the narrow defeat of
Democrats in a year when incumbent parties were defeated almost everywhere
heralded a permanent transformation of U.S. politics, that corrupt
authoritarians peddling hate would rule forever. There?s a lot to be
written about why oligarchs in particular were so willing to believe that
small-d democratic values were a thing of the past ? and one of the main
things big-D Democrats need to do now is hold not just Trump?s officials,
but also his enablers, accountable. But that?s a topic for another day.*

*The main point for now is that MAGA took 2024 as proof that Americans want
fascism, and acted on that premise. But tens of millions of Americans in
effect said, no, that is not what we want. That is not who we are.*

*The damage done over the last two years is incredible, and I don?t know
how much of it can ever be repaired. But there is, at last, hope. For last
night America showed that it is still America.*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 13:13:14 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 08:13:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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On Tue, Nov 3, 2026 at 4:23?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*>>?Spike, it is illegal for a US citizen who is living in the US to travel
>> to Canada (or any other foreign country) and buy his prescription drugs
>> there where they are MUCH cheaper and then return home. The MAGA people
>> don't want that law changed. Do you?  John K Clark*
>
>
>
> *> Ja.  That should be legal.*
>

*Maybe there's hope for you yet.  *



> *> What I don?t know and Gemini didn?t say is if the restrictions are
> merely regulations made by the FDA or if it is law passed by congress. *
>

*You didn't read what Gemini said, he already answered that question;
"nearly all imported prescription drugs violate the Federal Food, Drug, and
Cosmetic Act".  **In practice, FDA enforcement guidance has sometimes
permitted personal-use quantities under specific, narrow circumstances *



> * > If congress never acted on that, it isn?t a law, so nothing needs to
> be changed.*
>

*It is a law and it needs to be changed. With the new Democrat controlled
Congress a new law making it legal could pass but I don't know if
the Democrats will be able to overcome a Trump veto with a 2/3 vote in the
House and the Senate. It's ridiculous that a drug that was discovered and
manufactured in the USA costs FAR more in the US than it does in Canada. I
asked Gemini for a few examples:  *

              Examples of Price Disparities (Estimated Out-of-Pocket / List
Price)
*Medication* *Common Indication* *U.S. Retail Price (Approx.)* *Canada
Retail Price (Approx.)*
*Ozempic* (Semaglutide) Type 2 Diabetes / Weight Loss ~$950 ? $1,000 /
month ~$300
? $330 / month
*Eliquis* (Apixaban) Blood Thinner / Stroke Prevention ~$550 ? $800 /
month ~$130
? $150 / month
*Lantus / Humalog* (Insulin) Diabetes ~$280 ? $350 / vial ~$30 ? $45 / vial
*EpiPen* (Epinephrine 2-pack) Severe Allergic Reactions ~$550 ? $650 ~$100
? $150
*Xarelto* (Rivaroxaban) Blood Thinner ~$590 / month ~$135 / month
*Advair Diskus* (Fluticasone/Salmeterol) Asthma / COPD ~$350 ? $400 /
inhaler ~$80 ? $160 / inhaler
*Januvia* (Sitagliptin) Type 2 Diabetes ~$320 / month ~$165 /

*> John do you know anyone who has been prosecuted for bringing home 90 day
> supplies?*


*No not personally, but you seem to be implying that in this case it would
be OK for border guards to look the other way, but when it comes to illegal
immigration the only enforcement guideline is that the law must be followed
TO THE LETTER. So separate that nursing mother from her children and ship
her off to Guatemala, and take that 30 year-old man, who was born in
Columbia but entered the country illegally with his parents when he was
only one year old, slap him in handcuffs and shove him on a cargo plane
back to Columbia even though he doesn't know a word of Spanish, and even
though he's married with children and has a good job and has never received
so much as a parking ticket in 29 years. *

*The American people don't like that sort of cruelty, and that's one reason
MAGA politicians got their ass beaten yesterday.*


*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 13:53:20 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 05:53:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <qy2Y4ahKRWW0f5iJZBQGv7BSxKr_eaZtFgHg2jI9Ly0G5A3kleZTAi2Ycx7J8uo-_Vwksls9dalEIIRR5G9CIueCr8C_UWZswC6XxS95ab0=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <gwrbWV9CgeBrT4F1zmd09HVPhaQzQU_ECVjV2XjvBFySzm-6yf0ad9rRleEW0x58luM_s5IpG5DR_-YdK34julBrp0j5XJQBxqrSs2D4-3o=@proton.me>
 <015101dd6bbc$06a3ba80$13eb2f80$@rainier66.com>
 <qy2Y4ahKRWW0f5iJZBQGv7BSxKr_eaZtFgHg2jI9Ly0G5A3kleZTAi2Ycx7J8uo-_Vwksls9dalEIIRR5G9CIueCr8C_UWZswC6XxS95ab0=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <032a01dd6c63$dafb5750$90f205f0$@rainier66.com>


> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat



On Tuesday, 3 November 2026 at 17:52, spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>

>...I'm happy to be living in a country that has socialised healthcare (that actually saved my life at a time when I wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment if I'd been living in the US, so I'd be dead now), and can, according to you, sponge off the wonderful achievements of the US medical system that it is so generously giving to the rest of the world while its own people have the poorest health and lowest life-expectancy of all the developed countries.

Thanks!

---
Ben

_______________________________________________


No need to thank me Ben, for I have never been a big investor in medical companies.  The payoff on those is high, but also the risk.  There is a lot of competition in medical research, which means most of those companies lose money.  But one of them makes a ton of money to compensate those who take the risk.  Citizens from your country and your government are among those investors, as are investors all over the planet.

The socialists suggest the payoff should be lower.  If so, investors go elsewhere to other more profitable industries.  Had not obscene profits been a possibility, your life would not have been saved.  Capitalism is our friend.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 13:59:48 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 05:59:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0qsBGTAhNfnBJY34ctBxdMb8e0jXOmVFCaJTYbSYnQ3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <021401dd6bd9$944ea440$bcebecc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv0qsBGTAhNfnBJY34ctBxdMb8e0jXOmVFCaJTYbSYnQ3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032b01dd6c64$c1a6b3c0$44f41b40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
?

 

 

John look at that list below.  If the developers of those medications have no way to make back the cost of development and qualification thru FDA many times over (to cover the risk) investors would not put money in those companies and none of those medications would exist.

 

 

 


              Examples of Price Disparities (Estimated Out-of-Pocket / List Price)


Medication

Common Indication

U.S. Retail Price (Approx.)

Canada Retail Price (Approx.)


Ozempic (Semaglutide)

Type 2 Diabetes / Weight Loss

~$950 ? $1,000 / month

~$300 ? $330 / month


Eliquis (Apixaban)

Blood Thinner / Stroke Prevention

~$550 ? $800 / month

~$130 ? $150 / month


Lantus / Humalog (Insulin)

Diabetes

~$280 ? $350 / vial

~$30 ? $45 / vial


EpiPen (Epinephrine 2-pack)

Severe Allergic Reactions

~$550 ? $650

~$100 ? $150


Xarelto (Rivaroxaban)

Blood Thinner

~$590 / month

~$135 / month


Advair Diskus (Fluticasone/Salmeterol)

Asthma / COPD

~$350 ? $400 / inhaler

~$80 ? $160 / inhaler


Januvia (Sitagliptin)

Type 2 Diabetes

~$320 / month

~$165 /

 

 

I don?t use any of those, but I am glad they exist.  Are you?

 

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 14:13:45 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 09:13:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <032b01dd6c64$c1a6b3c0$44f41b40$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <021401dd6bd9$944ea440$bcebecc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv0qsBGTAhNfnBJY34ctBxdMb8e0jXOmVFCaJTYbSYnQ3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <032b01dd6c64$c1a6b3c0$44f41b40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2DKu7+3fAeq4vJy13pKGK4=BAvR2OHHiJrtY2s_jmh6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 8:59?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> *> John look at that list below.  If the developers of those medications
> have no way to make back the cost of development and qualification thru FDA
> many times over (to cover the risk) investors would not put money in those
> companies and none of those medications would exist.*
>


*And the cost for developing those drugs should be entirely paid for by
United States citizens and by nobody else?!  So I guess despite what you
said before you don't think that law should be changed, people or American
drugstore chains should not be allowed to buy prescription drugs in Canada
where they are super cheap and ship them over the border to the US where
they are super expensive. *

*Are you sure you're a libertarian? *


*John K Clark*








>
>
>
>
>
>               Examples of Price Disparities (Estimated Out-of-Pocket /
> List Price)
>
> *Medication*
>
> *Common Indication*
>
> *U.S. Retail Price (Approx.)*
>
> *Canada Retail Price (Approx.)*
>
> *Ozempic* (Semaglutide)
>
> Type 2 Diabetes / Weight Loss
>
> ~$950 ? $1,000 / month
>
> ~$300 ? $330 / month
>
> *Eliquis* (Apixaban)
>
> Blood Thinner / Stroke Prevention
>
> ~$550 ? $800 / month
>
> ~$130 ? $150 / month
>
> *Lantus / Humalog* (Insulin)
>
> Diabetes
>
> ~$280 ? $350 / vial
>
> ~$30 ? $45 / vial
>
> *EpiPen* (Epinephrine 2-pack)
>
> Severe Allergic Reactions
>
> ~$550 ? $650
>
> ~$100 ? $150
>
> *Xarelto* (Rivaroxaban)
>
> Blood Thinner
>
> ~$590 / month
>
> ~$135 / month
>
> *Advair Diskus* (Fluticasone/Salmeterol)
>
> Asthma / COPD
>
> ~$350 ? $400 / inhaler
>
> ~$80 ? $160 / inhaler
>
> *Januvia* (Sitagliptin)
>
> Type 2 Diabetes
>
> ~$320 / month
>
> ~$165 /
>
>
>
>
>
> *I don?t use any of those, but I am glad they exist.  Are you?*
>
>
>
> *spike*
>
>
>
>
>
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Wed Nov  4 14:48:16 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 14:48:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>

On 04/11/2026 14:14, spike wrote:
> Capitalism is our friend.


You mean "unfettered capitalism is our friend", because that's what we're talking about here.

If it's our friend, it's the kind of friend who constantly lies, takes your stuff without your permission, and has no concern at all for your wellbeing. The kind of friend that stabs you in the back as soon as it's beneficial to them.

I'm afraid I can't condone your "do what you want and to hell with everybody else" style of libertarianism. Being concerned for everyone on the planet has to be a basic value, for me at least. Making money should be secondary to, and subservient to, that.

Capitalism is like fire. It can be extremely useful, but it needs to be controlled. You need to have fire brigades, and you need to punish people who deliberately set things on fire that shouldn't be on fire. And we should use it to keep people warm (all people, not just a tiny percentage), not torture and kill them.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 14:49:15 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 09:49:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhHGUfvsTeYkef9ZjSSG7NvakTCRZ6ycOBu_LHJxsntTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRVm0CjhntiBXJHgE4TzwKujE-qG9UM7J4x+bftGZQZiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhHGUfvsTeYkef9ZjSSG7NvakTCRZ6ycOBu_LHJxsntTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQkfX1oHjGf+hfki=PwjQtaAK1ENSH-XC_h=89zmS_PMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 5:09?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Qwen tries to explain your objection.

And gets it wrong again.

> You are absolutely right: simply returning to the same "time" (u) at a different "place" (x,y,z) is not a Closed Timelike Curve (CTC), nor does it allow you to interact with your past self.

But it does allow interaction with your past self.

> That would just be regular spatial travel.

Regular spatial travel specifically does not involve returning to the
same time, regardless of spatial coordinates.

> When you were 10 years old, your worldline passed through Event A: (u=100,x=10,y=10,z=10).
> When you are 40 years old, your worldline is currently at Event B: (u=500,x=80,y=20,z=5).
>
> To "time travel" and stand "beside yourself" to shake hands with your 10-year-old self, your current worldline must physically intersect the older, already-drawn part of your worldline.

Nope.  Returning to (u=100,x=11,y=10,z=10) - notice the very slightly
different x - would suffice.

> You cannot meet your 10-year-old self by returning to u=100 at a completely different spatial location (say, x=90,y=90,z=90), because your 10-year-old self was never at that location! Your younger self was at (10,10,10). If you go to a different spatial coordinate at u=100, you are just visiting an empty spot in space at a time when your younger self was somewhere else.

You can interact without being in the exact same position.

Please don't post any further AI responses to this until - and unless
- you have weeded out this problem.  Your AI has gotten this exact
same problem wrong twice in a row now.


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 14:51:28 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 09:51:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A sigh of relief
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv06DPm5eT2KTs_EzZLNMi_nTYpX=mkLFVJ=Nn9o-oAzBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.11.1793786850.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <XjpQ6IEIHXu7cpKa1aCqTUv1MSPbAdCsSUuIIkQqKctznxNm1538OWSwkFCzshJO2txyb2yCBdNZsk61UHsdUhxTBgowjWMJuegWER2p6Yg=@proton.me>
 <CAJPayv06DPm5eT2KTs_EzZLNMi_nTYpX=mkLFVJ=Nn9o-oAzBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ-gwH+bpqQ=+B39tAdPjKgt+gqLe7OfO3M6vtU3De=Jg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 6:58?AM John Clark via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 6:21?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> > I was greatly relieved by this morning's news about the US mid-term elections.
>
> Me too, it turned out much better than I expected, even Texas turned blue, I haven't been this happy in six years!

Two years ago, I moved from California to North Carolina.

Now this happened.

One of my friend circles referenced
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79DijItQXMM&pp=ygUOeW91J3JlIHdlbGNvbWU%3D
though I really shouldn't take any significant credit for this
outcome, even locally.


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 15:47:16 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 07:47:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2DKu7+3fAeq4vJy13pKGK4=BAvR2OHHiJrtY2s_jmh6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <021401dd6bd9$944ea440$bcebecc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv0qsBGTAhNfnBJY34ctBxdMb8e0jXOmVFCaJTYbSYnQ3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <032b01dd6c64$c1a6b3c0$44f41b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2DKu7+3fAeq4vJy13pKGK4=BAvR2OHHiJrtY2s_jmh6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <035c01dd6c73$c516af60$4f440e20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 November, 2026 6:14 AM
To: spike at rainier66.com
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

 

 

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 8:59?AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

> John look at that list below.  If the developers of those medications have no way to make back the cost of development and qualification thru FDA many times over (to cover the risk) investors would not put money in those companies and none of those medications would exist.

 

 

>?And the cost for developing those drugs should be entirely paid for by United States citizens and by nobody else?! ?..

 

No, the cost for developing the drugs should be paid for by investors, which can be from anywhere.  How the companies make back their money is a function of intellectual property law, which has merit.  Information wants to be free, but information producers want to be paid.  If IP law is not robust, investors will not dump piles of money into medical research.  That is always an inherently risky bet.  It is why it is called research, rather than refind.  It hasta pay off big if one chooses the right company.

 

>?Are you sure you're a libertarian? 

 

John K Clark

 

Of that, I have never been surer, but I will qualify my response: Libertarian is not one party, any more than either of the two mainstreamers are unified parties.  A perfect example of that will be seen in the next congress.  I confidently predict the new party in power will use most of its term fighting itself.  Its mainstream will fight its emergent socialist wing.  Eventually that will split the party.  We have seen this before.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


              Examples of Price Disparities (Estimated Out-of-Pocket / List Price)


Medication

Common Indication

U.S. Retail Price (Approx.)

Canada Retail Price (Approx.)


Ozempic (Semaglutide)

Type 2 Diabetes / Weight Loss

~$950 ? $1,000 / month

~$300 ? $330 / month


Eliquis (Apixaban)

Blood Thinner / Stroke Prevention

~$550 ? $800 / month

~$130 ? $150 / month


Lantus / Humalog (Insulin)

Diabetes

~$280 ? $350 / vial

~$30 ? $45 / vial


EpiPen (Epinephrine 2-pack)

Severe Allergic Reactions

~$550 ? $650

~$100 ? $150


Xarelto (Rivaroxaban)

Blood Thinner

~$590 / month

~$135 / month


Advair Diskus (Fluticasone/Salmeterol)

Asthma / COPD

~$350 ? $400 / inhaler

~$80 ? $160 / inhaler


Januvia (Sitagliptin)

Type 2 Diabetes

~$320 / month

~$165 /

 

 

I don?t use any of those, but I am glad they exist.  Are you?

 

spike

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 15:52:10 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 15:52:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQkfX1oHjGf+hfki=PwjQtaAK1ENSH-XC_h=89zmS_PMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRVm0CjhntiBXJHgE4TzwKujE-qG9UM7J4x+bftGZQZiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhHGUfvsTeYkef9ZjSSG7NvakTCRZ6ycOBu_LHJxsntTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQkfX1oHjGf+hfki=PwjQtaAK1ENSH-XC_h=89zmS_PMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armidfbSDgZKSB96HFbEaq5jULCZXiqSmEr52TTJa=u6XoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 at 14:51, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 5:09?AM BillK via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > You are absolutely right: simply returning to the same "time" (u) at a
> different "place" (x,y,z) is not a Closed Timelike Curve (CTC), nor does it
> allow you to interact with your past self.
>
> But it does allow interaction with your past self.
>
> > That would just be regular spatial travel.
>
    Regular spatial travel specifically does not involve returning to the

> same time, regardless of spatial coordinates.
>
> > When you were 10 years old, your worldline passed through Event A:
> (u=100,x=10,y=10,z=10).
> > When you are 40 years old, your worldline is currently at Event B:
> (u=500,x=80,y=20,z=5).
> > To "time travel" and stand "beside yourself" to shake hands with your
> 10-year-old self, your current worldline must physically intersect the
> older, already-drawn part of your worldline.
>
> Nope.  Returning to (u=100,x=11,y=10,z=10) - notice the very slightly
> different x - would suffice.
>
> > You cannot meet your 10-year-old self by returning to u=100 at a
> completely different spatial location (say, x=90,y=90,z=90), because your
> 10-year-old self was never at that location! Your younger self was at
> (10,10,10). If you go to a different spatial coordinate at u=100, you are
> just visiting an empty spot in space at a time when your younger self was
> somewhere else.
>
> You can interact without being in the exact same position.
> _______________________________________________



Qwen went away and had a big think. Significantly longer than previous
responses.
Short answer is that Qwen agreed with your criticisms but said they
describe situations that are specifically forbidden by Zhang's theorem.
Which is why the theorem claims that time travel in our universe is
impossible.
Therefore, you need to disprove the assumptions in Zhang's theorem.
BillK

Qwen3.8 Max Thinking:

Yes ? that criticism is largely correct, and it exposes an imprecise way of
explaining the theorem. The right response is:

*You do not need to return to the exact same spacetime point to interact
with your past self. But Zhang?s theorem, if its assumptions hold, rules
out that weaker ?visit the past nearby? scenario too.*

The theorem is not merely saying ?you cannot stand in your exact old
footprints.? Its mathematical core is stronger: *a certain null coordinate
cannot be revisited at all by any future-directed timelike traveler, not
even at a slightly different spatial location.*
------------------------------
1. What the criticism gets rightA. Interaction does not require exact
coincidence
Correct. To interact with your 10-year-old self, you do not need to occupy
the exact same event. You only need to be in the same past region and be
able to exchange signals or forces. If your younger self is at
A=(u=100,x=10,y=10,z=10)
and your older self arrives at
C=(u=100,x=11,y=10,z=10),
then, depending on the causal structure, your older self may be able to
shout, throw a rock, send a light signal, or otherwise affect the younger
self shortly afterward. Exact overlap is not required.
So the earlier claim that the worldline must intersect the exact same event
was too narrow if the goal is ?meet or affect your past self.?
------------------------------
B. Ordinary spatial travel does not mean ?same time, different place?
Also correct. Normal spatial travel through spacetime is still travel along
a future-directed timelike worldline. You move through space, but you also
move forward in time. In a spacetime with a well-behaved global time-like
or null coordinate, your coordinate does not remain fixed while you travel
as a massive object.
So if someone says, ?I traveled spatially and returned to the same time but
a different place,? that is not ordinary spatial travel. That would already
be a violation of the usual causal ordering.
------------------------------
2. What the theorem actually proves
The theorem assumes there exists a global function u whose gradient is null
everywhere:
gab?au?bu=0.
This u is a ?light-based? coordinate. Its level surfaces are null
hypersurfaces ? roughly, surfaces swept out by light fronts.
Now take a massive observer moving along a future-directed timelike curve
with tangent vector Va. The rate of change of u along that observer?s path
is
d?du=Va?au.
The key algebraic fact is:

A null covector cannot be orthogonal to a timelike vector.

Therefore,
Va?au?=0.
Because the future timelike cone is connected, the sign of this quantity
cannot change. So after choosing the time orientation,
d?du>0
along every future-directed timelike curve.
That means u is strictly monotonic along any physical observer?s worldline.
------------------------------
3. This rules out ?same u, different place? too
Suppose your younger self is at
A=(u=100,x=10,y=10,z=10).
Your older self later reaches
B=(u=500,x=80,y=20,z=5).
Now the older self tries to travel to a nearby past event:
C=(u=100,x=11,y=10,z=10).
This is exactly the kind of scenario you described: not the same spatial
point, but close enough to interact.
But to go from B to C, the older self?s worldline would have to satisfy
u(B)=500,
and later
u(C)=100.
That would require
?u=?400.
But the theorem says that along any future-directed timelike path,
?u>0.
So the path B?C is impossible in any spacetime satisfying the theorem?s
hypothesis.
The theorem does not merely say:

You cannot return to (u=100,x=10,y=10,z=10).

It says:

You cannot return to u=100 at x=10, x=11, x=90, or anywhere else.

Once you have passed from u=100 to u=500, the value u=100 is permanently
behind you. No future-directed timelike journey can bring you back to that
null slice.
------------------------------
4. What about signals?
You might say:

Fine, maybe the older self cannot physically travel there, but could they
send a signal to the past?

No ? at least not in the class of spacetimes covered by the theorem.
For future-directed causal curves, which include both timelike and null
curves, the function u is non-decreasing:
d?du?0.
It is strictly increasing for massive travelers, and it can remain constant
only along special null directions tangent to the null hypersurfaces.
So if the older self is at u=500, any signal they send into the future must
go to events with
u?500.
It cannot go to an event with
u=100.
Therefore, the theorem also rules out sending messages to the past, not
merely physically traveling to the past.
------------------------------
5. ?Same u, different place? is not automatically interaction
There is one additional subtlety.
If two events have the same u but different spatial coordinates, they are
on the same null hypersurface. But that does not automatically mean they
can interact instantaneously. In relativity, interaction is local and
causal. If the events are spacelike separated, no signal can pass between
them with zero elapsed u.
So if the older self arrives at
C=(u=100,x=11,y=10,z=10),
and the younger self is at
A=(u=100,x=10,y=10,z=10),
they may be spatially close, but whether they can interact immediately
depends on the metric and on whether A and C are causally related.
However, this subtlety does not rescue time travel, because the older self
cannot get from B at u=500 to C at u=100 in the first place.
Even if the older self only needs to arrive slightly after the younger
self?s event, say
C=(u=101,x=10.1,y=10,z=10),
that is still much earlier than u=500. The trip
u=500?u=101
is still forbidden.
So the issue is not ?Can they interact once nearby?? The issue is ?Can they
reach that earlier era at all?? The theorem says no.
------------------------------
6. Closed timelike curves versus ?visiting the past?
There is a distinction between the formal definition and the informal idea
of time travel.
Formal definition
A *closed timelike curve* is a timelike curve that loops back to its
starting event. In that strict mathematical sense, yes, the curve is
closed: after one loop, all global coordinates return to their original
values.
That is why the article says something like:

No journey can return to its starting event.

That is the standard CTC language.
Informal time travel
But in the informal sense, ?time travel? usually means something like:

I, an older person, can enter the era of my younger self and interact with
them.

For that, exact return to the original event is not necessary. Arriving
nearby in the past may be enough.
Your criticism correctly points that out.
But Zhang?s proof gives a stronger consequence than merely ?no closed
loop.? Because u strictly increases along every future-directed timelike
curve, the theorem also forbids:

Leaving u=100, advancing to u=500, and then returning to u=100 at a
different spatial location.

So the informal ?visit the past nearby? scenario is also ruled out in any
spacetime admitting such a global null coordinate.
------------------------------
7. If such a trip were possible, the theorem?s assumptions would fail
Suppose someone constructs a spacetime where an observer can go from
B=(u=500,?)
to
C=(u=100,?)
and then interact with their younger self nearby.
That would not be a counterexample to Zhang?s theorem. It would mean that
the spacetime does *not* satisfy the theorem?s hypothesis. Specifically, it
would mean that there is no globally defined single-valued function u with
everywhere-null gradient that remains well behaved along the relevant
region.
That is exactly where the ?escape routes? come in:

   1. *Twist:* the null direction field twists so that no global null
   foliation exists.
   2. *Topology:* the spacetime is identified in such a way that the
   would-be null coordinate is not globally single-valued.

If you can return to the same null slice at a different spatial point after
having advanced to a later slice, then one of those loopholes must be
present.
------------------------------
8. The corrected way to state the result
The criticism shows that the explanation should not be phrased as:

You cannot return to the exact same point, therefore no time travel.

That is too weak, because interaction with the past does not require exact
point-return.
A better phrasing is:

If a spacetime admits a global null coordinate u, then u acts like a
one-way ratchet along every future-directed timelike worldline. Once you
leave a given u-slice, you can never return to that slice again ? not at
the same place, not at a nearby place, not anywhere. Therefore you cannot
enter your own past era, even slightly displaced in space.

Or even shorter:

The theorem does not merely prevent you from standing in your exact old
footprints. It prevents you from crossing back through the same
light-slice, even one meter to the left.

------------------------------
Bottom line
The criticism is right that:

   - interaction with the past does not require exact spatial coincidence;
   - returning to the same ?time? at a different place would not be
   ordinary spatial travel;
   - a time traveler could in principle affect their past self from nearby.

But the theorem still answers that criticism, because the proof does not
rely on exact return to the original event. It proves that the null
coordinate u strictly increases along any physical observer?s path.
Therefore, in the class of universes covered by the theorem, a traveler
cannot return to the same u-slice at a different spatial coordinate either.
So the nearby-past scenario is not a surviving form of time travel under
the theorem. It is precisely another thing the theorem forbids.
-----------------------------------------
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 15:53:26 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 07:53:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>


>...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Sent: Wednesday, 4 November, 2026 6:48 AM

Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On 04/11/2026 14:14, spike wrote:

>> Capitalism is our friend...


>...You mean "unfettered capitalism is our friend", because that's what
we're talking about here....
-- 
Ben
_______________________________________________

Regarding specifically capitalism in medicine, capitalism draws investments
from all over the planet to do medical research here, because intellectual
property law is robust here.  Result: yank research finds cool stuff, like
most of the medications on John's list.  Medical science moves forward
because there is sufficient capital to support it.  There is sufficient
capital to support it because if it is successful, it generates piles of
investment capital.  Reult: capitalism saves lives everywhere.  It makes
successful medical research investors richer everywhere.  Capitalism is our
friend.

spike


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Wed Nov  4 16:25:51 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 16:25:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
 <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>

On Wednesday, 4 November 2026 at 15:53, spike at rainier66.com wrote:


> capitalism saves lives everywhere.


But strangely less so in America - where health outcomes are way below those of other developed countries - than in other places.

Well, it seems this is the price you pay for unfettered capitalism. I suppose I should be glad it isn't the UK that plays this role. Three cheers for the sacrificial US of A!

---
Ben


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 17:14:57 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 12:14:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armidfbSDgZKSB96HFbEaq5jULCZXiqSmEr52TTJa=u6XoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNR54j6=R72oK_kXJDMrWySRu26nUL4FOpF6kG0x1R2ezQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026, 10:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> That would not be a counterexample to Zhang?s theorem. It would mean that
> the spacetime does *not* satisfy the theorem?s hypothesis. Specifically,
> it would mean that there is no globally defined single-valued function u
> with everywhere-null gradient that remains well behaved along the relevant
> region.
> That is exactly where the ?escape routes? come in:
>
>    1. *Twist:* the null direction field twists so that no global null
>    foliation exists.
>    2. *Topology:* the spacetime is identified in such a way that the
>    would-be null coordinate is not globally single-valued.
>
> Put that way, Zhang's theorem seems to reduce to almost a tautology: if no
one can bend their future personal timeline to return to the global past,
then you cannot return to the global past.  In other words: if no one can
go back in time, then you can't either.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 17:27:11 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 09:27:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
 <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>
 <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <03a601dd6c81$ba5c6020$2f152060$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On Wednesday, 4 November 2026 at 15:53, spike at rainier66.com wrote:


>>... capitalism saves lives everywhere.


>...But strangely less so in America - where health outcomes are way below
those of other developed countries - than in other places.

>...Well, it seems this is the price you pay for unfettered capitalism. I
suppose I should be glad it isn't the UK that plays this role. Three cheers
for the sacrificial US of A!

---
Ben

_______________________________________________


We were there for you in WW1 and WW2.  The yanks are there for you now Ben.

spike


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 20:32:26 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 12:32:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR54j6=R72oK_kXJDMrWySRu26nUL4FOpF6kG0x1R2ezQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=pqVQy7hFsqjYm6VrwgSf_KQYjenu_n1V98R2RgwmEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiCPs7hxcbBOmcZ1NVdcAmG95YZZB+NOQ8b36fmGHH-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQkfX1oHjGf+hfki=PwjQtaAK1ENSH-XC_h=89zmS_PMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armidfbSDgZKSB96HFbEaq5jULCZXiqSmEr52TTJa=u6XoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR54j6=R72oK_kXJDMrWySRu26nUL4FOpF6kG0x1R2ezQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6uOehsGSX1Ho5pg6UizHteHoNXsMS7peRwE-KO508N4Q@mail.gmail.com>

I tend to think that FTL and time travel are impossible in this universe.

However, in a simulation, you can checkpoint and store the simulation from
time to time and reenter the simulation at a later time.

An SF story based on this might be rather amusing.


Keith


On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 9:16?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 4, 2026, 10:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> That would not be a counterexample to Zhang?s theorem. It would mean that
>> the spacetime does *not* satisfy the theorem?s hypothesis. Specifically,
>> it would mean that there is no globally defined single-valued function u
>> with everywhere-null gradient that remains well behaved along the relevant
>> region.
>> That is exactly where the ?escape routes? come in:
>>
>>    1. *Twist:* the null direction field twists so that no global null
>>    foliation exists.
>>    2. *Topology:* the spacetime is identified in such a way that the
>>    would-be null coordinate is not globally single-valued.
>>
>> Put that way, Zhang's theorem seems to reduce to almost a tautology: if
> no one can bend their future personal timeline to return to the global
> past, then you cannot return to the global past.  In other words: if no one
> can go back in time, then you can't either.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 21:56:07 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 13:56:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <03a601dd6c81$ba5c6020$2f152060$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
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 <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB41AoYq_e8EK9uPoDqXyDt0Hjge=wQ_MtfT_7BgW9oyvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 10:34?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>
> On Wednesday, 4 November 2026 at 15:53, spike at rainier66.com wrote:
>
>
> >>... capitalism saves lives everywhere.
>
>
> >...But strangely less so in America - where health outcomes are way below
> those of other developed countries - than in other places.
>
> >...Well, it seems this is the price you pay for unfettered capitalism. I
> suppose I should be glad it isn't the UK that plays this role. Three cheers
> for the sacrificial US of A!
>
> ---
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> We were there for you in WW1 and WW2.  The yanks are there for you now Ben.
>

Not until Trump is gone.

Keith

>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 23:32:17 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 15:32:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Time Travel Reconsidered
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT3ZJzZXrp7h_ZyPMZtL9emk48CVD73Rsyh2MGCHhuL=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiVcM7xD2ddV2reBKpBPJSfNEPASy_1nVN7MsYDUMswDg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQkfX1oHjGf+hfki=PwjQtaAK1ENSH-XC_h=89zmS_PMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armidfbSDgZKSB96HFbEaq5jULCZXiqSmEr52TTJa=u6XoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR54j6=R72oK_kXJDMrWySRu26nUL4FOpF6kG0x1R2ezQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6uOehsGSX1Ho5pg6UizHteHoNXsMS7peRwE-KO508N4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3ZJzZXrp7h_ZyPMZtL9emk48CVD73Rsyh2MGCHhuL=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5v5Nw5d3y_bgOyThLR4KDeD4Kx8jY=b1cSZ_poFp1WBw@mail.gmail.com>

You could enter the branch simulation as a new instance based on your later
state, or you could just update the memory and state of your previous
existence. That would be weird. There you are in high school and suddenly
you have the memories of being 85 years old.

Oh, the things we would do differently if only we had accurate foresight.

Keith


On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 3:12?PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you've fully checkpointed, how would you know you restored from
> checkpoint?  The checkpoint would include all your memories and
> sensory data as of that moment.
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 3:32?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I tend to think that FTL and time travel are impossible in this universe.
> >
> > However, in a simulation, you can checkpoint and store the simulation
> from time to time and reenter the simulation at a later time.
> >
> > An SF story based on this might be rather amusing.
> >
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 9:16?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2026, 10:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> That would not be a counterexample to Zhang?s theorem. It would mean
> that the spacetime does not satisfy the theorem?s hypothesis. Specifically,
> it would mean that there is no globally defined single-valued function u
> with everywhere-null gradient that remains well behaved along the relevant
> region.
> >>> That is exactly where the ?escape routes? come in:
> >>>
> >>> Twist: the null direction field twists so that no global null
> foliation exists.
> >>> Topology: the spacetime is identified in such a way that the would-be
> null coordinate is not globally single-valued.
> >>
> >> Put that way, Zhang's theorem seems to reduce to almost a tautology: if
> no one can bend their future personal timeline to return to the global
> past, then you cannot return to the global past.  In other words: if no one
> can go back in time, then you can't either.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 23:51:31 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 15:51:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB41AoYq_e8EK9uPoDqXyDt0Hjge=wQ_MtfT_7BgW9oyvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
 <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>
 <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>
 <03a601dd6c81$ba5c6020$2f152060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB41AoYq_e8EK9uPoDqXyDt0Hjge=wQ_MtfT_7BgW9oyvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01dd6cb7$6b632ea0$42298be0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 



 

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 10:34?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:


...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat


>...Well, it seems this is the price you pay for unfettered capitalism. I
suppose I should be glad it isn't the UK that plays this role. Three cheers
for the sacrificial US of A!

---
Ben

_______________________________________________


We were there for you in WW1 and WW2.  The yanks are there for you now Ben. spike

 

>?Not until Trump is gone. 

 

>?Keith

 

Capitalism is good at developing new medications.  The whole world uses them.  We are there for you.  Capitalism is our friend.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 00:22:08 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 16:22:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <007f01dd6cb7$6b632ea0$42298be0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
 <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>
 <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>
 <03a601dd6c81$ba5c6020$2f152060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB41AoYq_e8EK9uPoDqXyDt0Hjge=wQ_MtfT_7BgW9oyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01dd6cb7$6b632ea0$42298be0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7a8ixNSR-SfFZKs8CJ9S8_cvei_W-ZgFB0Ju4366o5YQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 3:51?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>  *From:* Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>
On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 10:34?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>
>
> >...Well, it seems this is the price you pay for unfettered capitalism. I
> suppose I should be glad it isn't the UK that plays this role. Three cheers
> for the sacrificial US of A!
>
> ---
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> We were there for you in WW1 and WW2.  The yanks are there for you now
> Ben. spike
>
>
>
> >?Not until Trump is gone.
>
>
>
> >?Keith
>
>
>
> *Capitalism is good at developing new medications.  The whole world uses
> them.  We are there for you.  Capitalism is our friend.*
>
>
>
That has nothing to do with world wars.

Keith

> *spike*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 00:28:27 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 16:28:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7a8ixNSR-SfFZKs8CJ9S8_cvei_W-ZgFB0Ju4366o5YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.13.1793801676.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <rL9eVCxeuLk7uHAMQNqrNysUrID8MD9duS65FrsWbzC2ZmXIQtPOePmWXCmZn0SnVo6gX585gp-2xpBW-0XUeR2k4_sGaKQjlqIt4sRGOpI=@proton.me>
 <037501dd6c74$a1cb6310$e5622930$@rainier66.com>
 <anSTAKqFJ0ijQRPY0mHQxgwPG_wUfRQLi8lMjoNIwovG8cAqas0PaaRe1ZfT7Af5-wDAizGTAW67W-uyvnI9O-S141EwVWHMuf4FVGwRh5I=@proton.me>
 <03a601dd6c81$ba5c6020$2f152060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB41AoYq_e8EK9uPoDqXyDt0Hjge=wQ_MtfT_7BgW9oyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01dd6cb7$6b632ea0$42298be0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7a8ixNSR-SfFZKs8CJ9S8_cvei_W-ZgFB0Ju4366o5YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009b01dd6cbc$94397d70$bcac7850$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
?.
_______________________________________________


>>?We were there for you in WW1 and WW2.  The yanks are there for you now Ben. spike

 >?Not until Trump is gone. 

>?Keith

 

Capitalism is good at developing new medications.  The whole world uses them.  We are there for you.  Capitalism is our friend. spike

>?That has nothing to do with world wars.

 

Keith

 

 

But It has everything to do with developing medications useful to every society made of humans.  Capitalism is good at manufacturing stuff, which helped Britain defeat their adversaries in both world wars.  Capitalism is good at developing new technologies, such as medical technology and computers, which every society can use.  Capitalism is our friend.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 02:23:37 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 18:23:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] nvidia is set to come back
In-Reply-To: <03fd01dd6c95$f2ccfc30$d866f490$@rainier66.com>
References: <03fd01dd6c95$f2ccfc30$d866f490$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00dc01dd6ccc$aa9fcaf0$ffdf60d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: nvidia is set to come back

 

 

>.According to Cleanview (they promote renewable energy sources) data
centers will likely be required to use more renewable power if they want to
avoid a pause:

 

Newly Elected Governors Could Pause 41% of America
<https://newsletter.cleanview.co/p/newly-elected-governors-could-pause?img=h
ttps://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/853b1933-ce3d-4ba9
-b39f-122b984b0f6f_1460x1263.png&open=false> 's Planned Data Centers

 

>.spike

 

 

 

 

Long ago I was convinced that restoring cryonauts is absolutely dependent on
advanced AI.  Good chance there will be no significant pushback here or on
AlcorChat for that notion.  But advanced AI might be able to give us ideas
on how we can more effectively preserve a brain.  It might be that the most
effective preservation technique is also beyond our imagination, but
advanced AI could figure it out.  If so, delaying data centers might slay
most of us here, even if we are signed up for cryonics, for it is necessary
to discover how to preserve a brain in such a way that it can undo the
preservation damage when technology is more advanced. 

 

spike 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 03:55:08 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 22:55:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] nature's indifference to survival
In-Reply-To: <hWO4f2nZGx7il5jL-oNouB1Zom3K6MscuNvK7G-yMLhummtQKeEClH8I3kfqxOESo5Jmqes-eH0zCg5nm5rJ_QLkh5yhE5RFyQ2tdIME_Rw=@proton.me>
References: <hWO4f2nZGx7il5jL-oNouB1Zom3K6MscuNvK7G-yMLhummtQKeEClH8I3kfqxOESo5Jmqes-eH0zCg5nm5rJ_QLkh5yhE5RFyQ2tdIME_Rw=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT8cEtx7TgbqzTqU3E4vwiDZZEOhYzbkbga1f97oBCsxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 27, 2026 at 5:25?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On 27/10/2026 08:44, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> > Many things are believed to be zero-sum games, that are not in fact
> > zero-sum games.  Most things of importance to large governments are
> > not zero-sum games, whether or not they are believed to be.
>
> Can you give us some examples?

"We can either fund this factory, or this statue.  We don't have the
budget for both.  It's a zero-sum game: one proposal will win and one
will lose."

Except that the factory will generate a significant financial return
on investment, making more budget (that could perhaps eventually pay
for the statue), while the statue will not.

> > As to security: they're just pushing the problem outward.  The people
> > who are raised to kill them are still on their borders.  Education,
> > providing those people actual security, et al would change it so their
> > neighbors don't want to kill them nearly as much.
>
> Yes, and as you pointed out, this is not going to happen while easier solutions exist, like the one that is currently being implemented.

Recent Israeli elections suggest that a large number of people may be
realizing that the "easier solutions" do not in fact work.

> > This is the core disconnect.  We're not mostly talking about zero-sum situations.
>
> I think we are. Can you demonstrate how we're not?
>
> A lot of things are about money, which is clearly zero-sum.

The mere fact that some investments reliably generate a return on
investment - in other words, more money - argues otherwise.


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Thu Nov  5 11:06:44 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2026 11:06:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1793845433.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1793845433.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <djLhU87XPaboKiasnyqICnrAsP-p7iXWugtlJuL4kurh9T3C6qe-mAZiOSTOloXPy1bNH8oQXYqBVZahgGTVYSTecy7Gq6gqW3HJe8uISO4=@proton.me>

On 05/11/2026 02:23, spike/Keith wrote:
>
>     Capitalism is good at developing new medications.  The whole world uses them.  We are there for you.  Capitalism is our friend. spike
>
> >?That has nothing to do with world wars.
> Keith
>
>
> But It has everything to do with developing medications useful to every society made of humans.  Capitalism is good at manufacturing stuff, which helped Britain defeat their adversaries in both world wars.  Capitalism is good at developing new technologies, such as medical technology and computers, which every society can use.  Capitalism is our friend.


I'm detecting a broken record here, but at the risk of becoming one myself, I have to reiterate:

Capitalism is good, yes, /when constrained by moral and sensible economic considerations/ (exemplified by the Nordic model of Social Democacy, among others)).

Unfettered capitalism (the kind currently reigning in America) is not good, because while it does deliver some benefits, it also drives the majority of people into poverty, making them unable to afford the goods provided by capitalism, including health care.
When a significant proportion of a population can't afford (or are otherwise prevented from using (see below)), their own health system, there's clearly something very wrong.

Reading some of the links I provided earlier will show that, at least with healthcare, the biggest problem seems to be the insurance companies. Middlemen, which, as seems to be the case in every industry, wedge themselves in between providers and consumers, driving prices up, wriggling out of their obligations as much as possible, then profiting from both sides, not actually producing anything, just raking in as much cash as they can.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 12:33:41 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 07:33:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <035c01dd6c73$c516af60$4f440e20$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <A8gtcB4XzNyIFHet-8sZDDLKQ83wohPHeytO7t0MMuQ_jis29wIzhLoh0Jpf-UyfmKXWcYc-j8uUPDEyl5odSIiEwqIzGcytXcHsyZT5En8=@proton.me>
 <006c01dd6b9e$8d7087f0$a85197d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onutxyrBxQjHEdM-NS73Y_U80jvum6YRHb8bv4QO7mB6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv323sSUiyFmkYWgqx_8_9vpy7xhVSgZ5x-Qxjb0riVewA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d401dd6bd1$874c14b0$95e43e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2UdHu+ZL1278gBdZ4V_H6cZ7iicMUKL9nbBcBAVYaGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <021401dd6bd9$944ea440$bcebecc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv0qsBGTAhNfnBJY34ctBxdMb8e0jXOmVFCaJTYbSYnQ3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <032b01dd6c64$c1a6b3c0$44f41b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2DKu7+3fAeq4vJy13pKGK4=BAvR2OHHiJrtY2s_jmh6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <035c01dd6c73$c516af60$4f440e20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0e2Jx3wniNO877CensHt9QwXrHOxr8eL-350ExnYY83g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026 at 10:47?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> *>>> **John look at that list below.  If the developers of those
>> medications have no way to make back the cost of development and
>> qualification thru FDA many times over (to cover the risk) investors would
>> not put money in those companies and none of those medications would exist.*
>
>
>
>> *>> ?And the cost for developing those drugs should be entirely paid for
>> by United States citizens and by nobody else?! ?..*
>
>
>
> *> No, the cost for developing the drugs should be paid for by investors,
> which can be from anywhere. *
>

*But who pays the investors back and gives them an additional profit for
taking a chance and making an investment? The sick people who use the newly
developed drugs. Can any sick person from anywhere use those drugs? Yes. So
why are sick Americans that use those drugs THE ONLY SICK PEOPLE that pay
for it?  *

*> If IP law is not robust, investors will not dump piles of money into
> medical research.*


*A keen grasp of the obvious. I want to know why American citizens are the
ONLY ONES that must pay for using these new and improved drugs. *

*> in the next congress.  I confidently predict the new party in power will
> use most of its term fighting itself.  Its mainstream will fight its
> emergent socialist wing.*


*And I confidently predict that if, in the next 3 years, the mainstream of
the Democratic Party does NOT become socialist then the entire party will
undergo an extinction level event because, like it or not, socialism is the
future of the human race. Unless of course we have no future at all because
AI decides to kill everybody.  *


>> *>>?Are you sure you're a libertarian? *
>
>
>
> > *Of that, I have never been surer,*
>

*And yet you have never said one word of criticism over Donald's
aggressively anti-libertarian, idiotically anti-free market, tariff policy.
Why? And I have never heard you criticize the president for making
anti-libertarian **anti-free speech actions such as suing newspapers and
Cable News channels for saying unflattering things about the current POTUS.
Why? *

*And I have also never heard one word of criticism from you over Donald's
Iran war even though the Constitution, which you claimed to love, says that
POTUS can NOT declare war on anybody, only Congress can do that. Why
doesn't that bother you? *

*John K Clark*









>
>
>               Examples of Price Disparities (Estimated Out-of-Pocket /
> List Price)
>
> *Medication*
>
> *Common Indication*
>
> *U.S. Retail Price (Approx.)*
>
> *Canada Retail Price (Approx.)*
>
> *Ozempic* (Semaglutide)
>
> Type 2 Diabetes / Weight Loss
>
> ~$950 ? $1,000 / month
>
> ~$300 ? $330 / month
>
> *Eliquis* (Apixaban)
>
> Blood Thinner / Stroke Prevention
>
> ~$550 ? $800 / month
>
> ~$130 ? $150 / month
>
> *Lantus / Humalog* (Insulin)
>
> Diabetes
>
> ~$280 ? $350 / vial
>
> ~$30 ? $45 / vial
>
> *EpiPen* (Epinephrine 2-pack)
>
> Severe Allergic Reactions
>
> ~$550 ? $650
>
> ~$100 ? $150
>
> *Xarelto* (Rivaroxaban)
>
> Blood Thinner
>
> ~$590 / month
>
> ~$135 / month
>
> *Advair Diskus* (Fluticasone/Salmeterol)
>
> Asthma / COPD
>
> ~$350 ? $400 / inhaler
>
> ~$80 ? $160 / inhaler
>
> *Januvia* (Sitagliptin)
>
> Type 2 Diabetes
>
> ~$320 / month
>
> ~$165 /
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 13:42:45 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 08:42:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3aBHuiOYV3tjuVFmUbr4AaajJ7xcui5LVeWZxQpY0Fjw@mail.gmail.com>

*Many newly elected Democratic governors have advocated a pause an AI Data
Center construction, so I asked GPT the following question:*

*ME: What state looks to you like the most attractive for building large
data centers in the next few years?*


*GPT*: "I would pay particular attention to these five states:

   1.

   Georgia: Strong site-readiness measurements, but local opposition is
   significant.
   2.

   Tennessee: Attractive combination of infrastructure and development
   opportunities.
   3.

   South Carolina: Another promising southeastern location.
   4.

   Texas: Enormous potential, but substantial uncertainty over electricity
   and permitting.
   5.

   Pennsylvania: Particularly interesting because of its natural-gas
   resources and existing electrical infrastructure.

Florida is also competitive, but faces its own land-use, water, electricity
and hurricane-related challenges.

I think we may be approaching a situation in which the availability of
electricity, rather than the availability of money or computer chips,
becomes the principal constraint on AI expansion. That could produce some
surprising winners among states that currently receive relatively little
attention in discussions about the AI industry."
*ME: Iceland has lots of freshwater and cheap energy due to hydroelectric
and geothermal power, so would that be a good place to build multi gigawatt
AI data centers?*

GPT: "Iceland is potentially an excellent location for a specialized AI
computing facility in the 300 Megawatt range, but Iceland does not
currently have the electrical infrastructure to accommodate the enormous
multi-gigawatt campuses being contemplated by the largest American
technology companies.  But two other countries probably could accommodate
them,  Norway and Finland. Norway has enormous hydroelectric resources,
Finland has substantial nuclear and other generation capacity, and both
have much larger electricity systems than Iceland. I would investigate
those two countries very seriously as potential European destinations for
gigantic AI computing facilities."

*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 15:01:44 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 07:01:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0e2Jx3wniNO877CensHt9QwXrHOxr8eL-350ExnYY83g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <006901dd6d36$93592f20$ba0b8d60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 



>> ?And the cost for developing those drugs should be entirely paid for by United States citizens and by nobody else?! ?..

 

> No, the cost for developing the drugs should be paid for by investors, which can be from anywhere. 

 

>?But who pays the investors back and gives them an additional profit for taking a chance and making an investment? The sick people who use the newly developed drugs?

 

That?s right, and that is everyone.

 

>? Can any sick person from anywhere use those drugs? Yes. So why are sick Americans that use those drugs THE ONLY SICK PEOPLE that pay for it?

 

They aren?t.

 

 

> If IP law is not robust, investors will not dump piles of money into medical research.

 

>?A keen grasp of the obvious. I want to know why American citizens are the ONLY ONES that must pay for using these new and improved drugs?.

 

They aren?t.

 

 

 

>?And I confidently predict that if, in the next 3 years, the mainstream of the Democratic Party does NOT become socialist?.

 

There is nothing in the constitution that empowers the federal government to do the things socialism requires.  Socialism is not constitutional.

 

>? then the entire party will undergo an extinction level event?.

 

But extinction makes opportunities for new species.  I don?t see it so much as extinction as a split into two parties.  

 

 

>>?Are you sure you're a libertarian? 

 > Of that, I have never been surer,

 

>?And yet you have never said one word of criticism over Donald's aggressively anti-libertarian, John K Clark

 

 

That?s your job John.  Well, you and Hasan Piker.  You don?t need my help.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 15:19:13 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 10:19:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 10:01?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*>>? Can any sick person from anywhere use those drugs? Yes. So why are
>> sick Americans that use those drugs THE ONLY SICK PEOPLE that pay for it?*
>
>
>
> *> They aren?t.*
>

*They aren't?  Then why in hell do drugs that were discovered and are
manufactured in the US cost far FAR more in the US than they do in
Canada?!  Are you really sure you want to defend this policy? *



> *> Socialism is not constitutional.*
>

*So Medicare and Social Security are unconstitutional, and progressive
income tax too? If you were correct (and fortunately you are NOT) then the
Constitution would be a piece of shit that is headed towards a
well-deserved extinction.  *

*But of course when you give your rebuttal you will ignore my use of the
words "if" and "not" in the above. *


*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 17:00:07 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 09:00:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
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Message-ID: <00b801dd6d47$1d075bb0$57161310$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 10:01?AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>>? Can any sick person from anywhere use those drugs? Yes. So why are sick Americans that use those drugs THE ONLY SICK PEOPLE that pay for it?

> They aren?t.

 

>?They aren't?  Then why in hell do drugs that were discovered and are manufactured in the US cost far FAR more in the US than they do in Canada?!  Are you really sure you want to defend this policy?

 

Several reasons but one of them is when you buy drugs from Canada or Mexico, you don?t have the inventory protections in place here.  Your risk of getting a counterfeit drug is higher.  Even if the drugs are pure going out, you don?t know if someone is repackaging it with a percentage of counterfeits.  

 

Consider also their governments can buy drugs in huge quantities, so they can negotiate great deals.  If the deal doesn?t go thru, they can synthesize substitutes.  Anyone can take any pill, figure out what is in it, how much is in it, then manufacture a knockoff.  We can?t do anything about that if they do.  So? US drug manufacturers recover as much as they can.

 

What we yanks have is a combination of free markets and robust intellectual property protections that result in medical research companies coming here.  If other countries can get their drugs better and cheaper as a result, well OK then.  The USA is your friend.  They also are protected by our nuclear blanket, which we pay for.  Capitalism is their friend, even if they don?t have it themselves. 

 

> Socialism is not constitutional.

 

>?So Medicare and Social Security are unconstitutional?.

 

Come back in six years John.  If AI doesn?t kill everybody, we must deal with a retirement plan which can only pay out what the taxpayers pay in.

 

>? and progressive income tax too?

 

See amendment 16.

 

>? If you were correct (and fortunately you are NOT) then the Constitution would be a piece of shit that is headed towards a well-deserved extinction?. John K Clark

 

Ja we know:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWDy6Sr7rfA

 

John you should get a TwitterX account and gain a following there, or Twitch, as Hasan Piker has amassed over three million followers.

 

The constitution protects him, and protects us from guys like him.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 17:41:45 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 18:41:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
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Actually, spike, the reason healthcare is expensive in the us is your shite
ability to make deals. Trumpia mismanages capitalism in a horrible way.
I work in health care in Sweden.  Socialist state, almost commies, no?
Everything is Socialist pipedreams and fiat moonies from the state and
taxes right?
Fuck no. But I can't be arsed to spend the time to write all that so
mistral has done that. Appended at the end.
What is interesting for you is that costs are highly and competitively
minmaxed.
My prime example is my bread and butter, hip replacement.
At Lindesbergs lasarett we take all comers, basically if you are alive and
can argue enough with the surgeon, then you are welcome to hip replacement
at our hospital,  we are a part of the ?rebro University hospital and take
everything.
The majority of our patients go home the day after. Not day surgery but
basically 24h surgery.
Price point for this?
$8.900
That is the price any organisation who do hips get for a normal hip
replacement for a normal patient.  We have no problem keeping that price.
We as a university hospital do not make any useful profit since we take all
sick patients but we are not going bankrupt either.
The private providers have some sanity checks on patients and make a
healthy profit at this price.
What, pray tell do you pay in the US of trump?
And why?

We do not extort any medical companies for anything,  they make a healthy
living profit too.
/Henrik


Here's the piece, rewritten as an open letter in American English for a
Republican reader:

---

**An Open Letter to My Republican Friends: How Sweden's Health Care
Actually Works**

You've probably heard Sweden described as a socialist medical dystopia ?
government death panels, rationed care, no choices. Having lived with both
systems in view, let me tell you what it actually looks like, because the
reality doesn't fit either party's talking points.

**First, it's not the VA.** The biggest misconception is that Swedish
health care is run like a government monopoly. The better comparison:
**Medicare for everyone ? but run at the state level, with private doctors
and clinics competing for patients.** The government doesn't own your care;
it funds it. Roughly half of Sweden's primary care clinics are run by
private companies or foundations, and they're allowed to make a profit.

**How it's paid for: taxes, not premiums.** There are no employer-sponsored
insurance plans to negotiate, no in-network/out-of-network, no deductibles,
no open enrollment windows. Care is funded by an income tax that partially
goes to the regions ? think of it as each state running its own Medicare.

**And it's decentralized.** Sweden's 21 regions (think: states) set their
own tax rates and decide how to organize their own care. That's federalism
and local control in practice ? values you hold in high regard.

**What the patient pays:** a maximum of about **$140 per year** for all
outpatient visits combined ? after that, everything is free nationwide,
including at private clinics ([SKR](
https://skr.se/halsaochsjukvard/ekonomiochavgiftersjukvard/patientavgifteriallaregioner.7874.html)).
A hospital day costs at most about $12. Prescription drugs have their own
similar cap. No Swede has ever faced a medical bill that led to personal
bankruptcy ? a phenomenon that pushes hundreds of thousands of American
families into bankruptcy every year.

**What it costs the country:** about **11.2% of GDP** in 2024, with 86%
publicly financed and 13% from patient fees and private pay ([Statistics
Sweden](
https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/nationalrakenskaper/nationalrakenskaper/halsorakenskaper/)).
The U.S. spends about **18% of GDP** ? dramatically more per person,
without covering everyone.

**For employers:** Swedish companies don't compete for workers on generous
health packages, because they don't need to. That's a hidden advantage
often forgotten when comparing "tax burdens."

**Politically, no campaign is fought over the basics.** Here's what
surprises Americans most: whether everyone should have access to care is
**not politically contested in Sweden.** Neither the conservatives
(Moderaterna) nor the Sweden Democrats want to abolish the publicly funded
system. The debate is about:

- **Private vs. public operation** ? the right wants more competition and
more private providers; the left wants to limit profits in welfare. That's
the real "government takeover" fight, and it's about *who provides* the
care, not who pays.
- **Wait times and access** ? the perennial battleground. The national care
guarantee promises same-day contact, an assessment within 3 days, and
specialist visits and treatment within 90 days ? but in April 2025, about
35% waited longer than 90 days for planned procedures ([Socialstyrelsen](
https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/statistik-och-data/statistik/alla-statistikamnen/lagesbild-och-statistik-tillganglighet-vantetider-och-vardgaranti-i-halso-och-sjukvard/),
[1177](
https://www.1177.se/sa-fungerar-varden/lagar-och-bestammelser/vardgaranti/)
).
- **Priorities** ? with a fixed budget, politicians are forced to openly
say no to certain treatments and expensive new drugs. It becomes a visible
political fight, instead of the invisible negotiation between insurers and
hospitals that you're used to.

**The honest tradeoffs ? so this doesn't read like a brochure:**

| | Sweden | U.S. |
|---|---|---|
| Cost (% of GDP) | ~11% | ~18% |
| Coverage | Everyone, automatically | ~92% insured, with gaps |
| Cost if you get sick | Max ~$140/year | Can reach tens of thousands
(deductibles) |
| Wait for planned care | Often months; ~35% wait >90 days | Often shorter
? if you're insured |
| Choice | Choose your clinic (private included), but no insurance to pick
| Pick your insurance, but network restrictions |
| The citizen's "cost" | High income tax (~30?35% total) | Lower taxes, but
employer premiums |

Here's my closing point: Swedes didn't choose between freedom and
government ? they made a tradeoff. They accept higher taxes, waiting lines,
and less consumer choice in exchange for nobody going bankrupt from a heart
attack and small businesses never having to shop for employee health
insurance. And structurally, the system is more market-oriented and more
decentralized than its reputation: private providers, competition for
patients, and 21 local "states" that get to adapt the system to their own
needs. You can dislike the price of that tradeoff ? but dislike the actual
price, not a caricature of Britain's NHS.

---

Want me to adjust the tone (more formal, or punchier op-ed style), or
tailor it for a specific audience like a business owner or a fiscal
conservative?


Den ons 4 nov. 2026 14:55spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

>
> > On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 3 November 2026 at 17:52, spike at rainier66.com <
> spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> >
>
> >...I'm happy to be living in a country that has socialised healthcare
> (that actually saved my life at a time when I wouldn't have been able to
> afford the treatment if I'd been living in the US, so I'd be dead now), and
> can, according to you, sponge off the wonderful achievements of the US
> medical system that it is so generously giving to the rest of the world
> while its own people have the poorest health and lowest life-expectancy of
> all the developed countries.
>
> Thanks!
>
> ---
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> No need to thank me Ben, for I have never been a big investor in medical
> companies.  The payoff on those is high, but also the risk.  There is a lot
> of competition in medical research, which means most of those companies
> lose money.  But one of them makes a ton of money to compensate those who
> take the risk.  Citizens from your country and your government are among
> those investors, as are investors all over the planet.
>
> The socialists suggest the payoff should be lower.  If so, investors go
> elsewhere to other more profitable industries.  Had not obscene profits
> been a possibility, your life would not have been saved.  Capitalism is our
> friend.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Thu Nov  5 18:10:08 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2026 18:10:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1793900530.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.3.1793900530.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <E0ydkzKmqNvFRy5koZLqKdLi87-rN6djjHxametDt-4Q0tjSyn2cuh-z1OzNq2XMbsNMAOYtuecsb-9Jk5BRWmdKllIOwe2lUW9aa5tQpFM=@proton.me>

On 05/11/2026 17:42, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:

> Actually, spike ...


Thanks for this, Henrik. It's nice to get some facts based on real-world experience from someone actually in the healthcare business.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 18:58:30 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 10:58:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <001d01dd6d57$a68d8de0$f3a8a9a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

>?Actually, spike, the reason healthcare is expensive in the us is your shite ability to make deals. Trumpia mismanages capitalism in a horrible way?.

 

It goes back to Calvin Coolidge who opined: He governs best who governs least.  

 

>?I work in health care in Sweden.  Socialist state, almost commies, no?... /Henrik 

 

No.  From what I can tell, Sweden is nearly indistinguishable from the US system, which calls itself capitalism (but really isn?t.)  Henrik, does Sweden benefit from yankee-developed medications and therapies?

 

If you meant France rather than Sweden, very well, do let us stand by and watch.  The problems in France are similar to the USA: they pretended that government debt doesn?t matter.  If so, the French government could solve all their problems and end the riots by borrowing more and spending more.  So why aren?t they doing it?  It is because government debt matters there?  If it matters there, it matters here.

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 19:17:29 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 14:17:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
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In-Reply-To: <001d01dd6d57$a68d8de0$f3a8a9a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ+6uucp6jYEecfhMA2gkq31LHpJBxAOV3MBO+Xg7Rvww@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 2:00?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> From what I can tell, Sweden is nearly indistinguishable from the US system

In the very email you replied to, Henrik gave a bunch of differences.
I'll copy and paste the table he gave, in case you missed it:

| | Sweden | U.S. |
|---|---|---|
| Cost (% of GDP) | ~11% | ~18% |
| Coverage | Everyone, automatically | ~92% insured, with gaps |
| Cost if you get sick | Max ~$140/year | Can reach tens of thousands
(deductibles) |
| Wait for planned care | Often months; ~35% wait >90 days | Often
shorter ? if you're insured |
| Choice | Choose your clinic (private included), but no insurance to
pick | Pick your insurance, but network restrictions |
| The citizen's "cost" | High income tax (~30?35% total) | Lower
taxes, but employer premiums |


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 20:30:09 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 15:30:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <00b801dd6d47$1d075bb0$57161310$@rainier66.com>
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 12:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>> *>why in hell do drugs that were discovered and are manufactured in the
>> US cost far FAR more in the US than they do in Canada?!  Are you really
>> sure you want to defend this policy?*
>
>
>
> *> Several reasons but one of them is when you buy drugs from Canada or
> Mexico, you don?t have the inventory protections in place here.  Your risk
> of getting a counterfeit drug is higher.  Even if the drugs are pure going
> out, you don?t know if someone is repackaging it with a percentage of
> counterfeits. *
>

*That doesn't make any sense. If there is any difference between the two
countries in the probability of getting a dangerous counterfeit drug, then
it should be higher in the US than in Canada.  No counterfeiter would dream
of counterfeiting a one dollar bill, or any bill less than a 20, because
the risk would not be worth the reward; and the same thing would hold for a
prescription drug.  *

*Still not convinced? Well let's see what the AI made by that ultra-woke
ultra-liberal guy named Elon Musk has to say: *

*ME:  I asked somebody why so many prescription drugs were enormously more
expensive in the US than they are in Canada and he said "when you buy drugs
from Canada or Mexico, you don?t have the inventory protections in place
here.  Your risk of getting a counterfeit drug is higher." But that didn't
seem like a very good answer to me, is it really true that getting an
unsafe prescription drug in Canada is so high that it is worth paying far
more for a drug sold in the US?*

*Grok: **No, that is not a good or complete explanation*. The large price
gap between the US and Canada is driven mainly by policy and market
structure differences, not by a dramatically higher baseline risk of
counterfeit drugs in Canada?s regulated system. US brand-name prescription
drugs are typically far more expensive than in Canada and other developed
countries. Analyses (including RAND using 2022 data) have found US prices
for brand-name originator drugs around 3?4+ times higher than in comparator
countries.

This is because Canada?s Patented Medicine Prices Review Board (PMPRB)
limits what manufacturers can charge for patented drugs. Provinces and
territories negotiate collectively through the pan-Canadian Pharmaceutical
Alliance (pCPA), which increases buyer leverage. Price increases are also
constrained. The US has historically lacked equivalent nationwide controls. The
US allows freer pricing for new branded drugs and accounts for a
disproportionate share of global pharmaceutical profits, *which effectively
subsidizes innovation that benefits other countries that suppress prices.*

>
*> Consider also their governments can buy drugs in huge quantities, so
> they can negotiate great deals. *
>

*Laws prevent Medicare, Social Security and the US Veterans Administration
from negotiating great deals like the Canadiens have. A libertarian would
want those laws repealed. So spike, I ask again, are you a libertarian?  *

*>>> **Socialism is not constitutional.*
>
>
>
>> *>> ?So Medicare and Social Security are unconstitutional?.*
>
>
>
> *>* *Come back in six years John.  If AI doesn?t kill everybody, we must
> deal with a retirement plan which can only pay out what the taxpayers pay
> in.*
>

*As usual you dodged my question. I did not ask if you thought Medicare or
Social Security were good ideas or bad, I asked if you believed they were
unconstitutional; and your lack of candor makes me believe you probably do.
If so I can't really blame you for being evasive, I'd also be embarrassed
to admit I believed in something that silly. *

* John K Clark*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 20:35:37 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 15:35:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 12:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWDy6Sr7rfA
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWDy6Sr7rfA>*
>


*Trump advisor John McEntee gives fake money to homeless people*
<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/olMsBil-Pug>

*John K Clark*
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 21:29:44 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 22:29:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ+6uucp6jYEecfhMA2gkq31LHpJBxAOV3MBO+Xg7Rvww@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAF0GBnjgFbUjCDD8XFH0AWYvCKcEzyaoPiFQ1D041RefGuVg4g@mail.gmail.com>

I think that the republican version of spike has the same dementia as all
MAGA.
I much prefer the socialist version who pops upp every now and then .
/Henrik

Den tors 5 nov. 2026 20:19Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

> On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 2:00?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > From what I can tell, Sweden is nearly indistinguishable from the US
> system
>
> In the very email you replied to, Henrik gave a bunch of differences.
> I'll copy and paste the table he gave, in case you missed it:
>
> | | Sweden | U.S. |
> |---|---|---|
> | Cost (% of GDP) | ~11% | ~18% |
> | Coverage | Everyone, automatically | ~92% insured, with gaps |
> | Cost if you get sick | Max ~$140/year | Can reach tens of thousands
> (deductibles) |
> | Wait for planned care | Often months; ~35% wait >90 days | Often
> shorter ? if you're insured |
> | Choice | Choose your clinic (private included), but no insurance to
> pick | Pick your insurance, but network restrictions |
> | The citizen's "cost" | High income tax (~30?35% total) | Lower
> taxes, but employer premiums |
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 21:51:32 2026
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 16:51:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Robots discover the hard problem of consciousness
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUh0F5Lv5jB=crVofZsd29LibqeejSwFyo+TTqKiBRtVBw@mail.gmail.com>

I recently gave this talk on how robots trained with a singular goal (in my
example, how to drive safely) inevitably must ascend through increasing
levels of consciousness in order to become more competent in that goal:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1B9tcSNf5UdYkO78Hazwj2Gs_zRyZ0Fo2YMUW7Xusv4o/edit?usp=drivesdk

Jason
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 22:34:03 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 22:34:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How Robots discover the hard problem of consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUh0F5Lv5jB=crVofZsd29LibqeejSwFyo+TTqKiBRtVBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+BCJUh0F5Lv5jB=crVofZsd29LibqeejSwFyo+TTqKiBRtVBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjENY2dxqfObvuLe56jkfSS1xBax9gVOAYDsEbNReHnCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Nov 2026 at 21:53, Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I recently gave this talk on how robots trained with a singular goal (in
> my example, how to drive safely) inevitably must ascend through increasing
> levels of consciousness in order to become more competent in that goal:
>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1B9tcSNf5UdYkO78Hazwj2Gs_zRyZ0Fo2YMUW7Xusv4o/edit?usp=drivesdk
> Jason
> _______________________________________________



I asked Gemini 3.8 Flash AI to extract the text and summarize it.
BillK

Synthesis and Executive Summary

In What Is It Like to Be a Process?, Jason K. Resch outlines a rigorous
computational-functionalist theory of consciousness called the
Centered-Knowledge Thesis. The presentation addresses fundamental open
questions
in the philosophy of mind, computational theory (specifically referencing
Matthias Scheutz?s work on functional realization), and cognitive robotics.

1. The Core Thesis: P_C \equiv K_C

Resch posits an identity theory: Phenomenal Character (P_C) is identical to
Centered Knowledge (K_C).

  - Consciousness is not an epiphenomenal "glow" or a secondary byproduct
    produced by physical matter.
  - Rather, subjective experience is what it is like from the inside to
occupy
    an organized system of causally effective distinctions that steer an
agent's
    future transitions.
  - This is constrained by Causal Closure and the Closure Constraint: Any
    phenomenal difference that can be noticed, compared, remembered, or
reported
    must correspond to an actual difference in the causal-computational
    organization producing that judgment.

2. Computation as Unfolded Causal Event Graphs

Addressing Scheutz's problem of physical implementation:

  - Computation cannot be defined by arbitrary state mapping
(Putnam/Searle) nor
    by microphysical identity. It is defined by bisimulation over causal
paths.
  - Resch represents processes as acyclic causal event graphs G = (V, E)
    (drawing on Lamport's happened-before relations and spacetime causal
sets).
  - Crucially, recurrence is not essential for consciousness; it is an
    engineering economy. Recurrent loops across time unfold into
feed-forward
    causal event graphs. A feed-forward network with sufficient circuit
depth
    realizes the exact same event graph as a recurrent circuit with temporal
    depth.

3. The Epistemic Firewall and the "Center Rule"

  - The Center Rule: To determine the boundaries and grain of a mind, one
traces
    intervention-sensitive dependencies backward from behavioral "anchors"
    (decision/selection points) to the sensory inputs. The adequate
interface is
    the coarsest level that preserves every dependency.
  - The Epistemic Firewall: Thanks to computational virtualization and
multiple
    realizability, a process cannot inspect the underlying physical
substrate
    realizing its interface (carbon, silicon, vacuum tubes). The substrate
is
    epistemically opaque, explaining why physics appears to observers
purely as
    structure and dynamics.

4. Evolution, Valence, and the Spectrum of Mind

  - Consciousness is an evolutionary prerequisite for intelligent,
non-random
    action: agents must discriminate environmental states to select
appropriate
    continuations.
  - Valence (Pain/Pleasure): Pain is not an arbitrary tag; it is an
organization
    that forces avoidance, error-correction, and resource reallocation.
  - Continuum of Consciousness: Analogous to biological life (which spans
    seamlessly from single-celled bacteria to blue whales without a "magic
    moment"), consciousness spans from minimal systems (a single used
    distinction in a thermostat or nematode) up to human and metacognitive
    architectures.

5. Derivation of the Meta-Problem and Argonov's Test

Through a thought experiment of an autonomous vehicle evolving across 10
levels
of cognitive complexity (ConsScale) solely to avoid traffic accidents, Resch
shows that:

  - The machine must eventually build models of other agents' perspectives
    (Level 5), self-models (Level 6), and inspect its own internal latency
logs
    (Level 8).
  - In doing so, the machine naturally encounters the explanatory gap:
reading
    its own code/weights (a third-person description) does not place it in
the
    state of executing/occupying that code (first-person occupation).
  - The vehicle independently discovers Nagel?s Bat problem, Mary?s Room,
and
    the Hard Problem of Consciousness. Because it was never trained on
    philosophy, it satisfies Argonov?s (2014) criteria for validating
machine
    consciousness via spontaneous phenomenal judgment.

6. Defeating Rival Metaphysics

  - Philosophical Zombies: Refuted via a causal dilemma. If qualia (Q)
affect
    behavior/reports, zombies are physically non-identical; if Q has no
causal
    impact, conscious beings could never know or report that they have it.
  - Mental Causation (Kim?s Exclusion): Dissolved by interventionist
causality
    (Woodward). Higher-level computational organization is the true
invariant
    difference-maker across time, not microphysics acting across vertical
    levels.
  - Panpsychism & Russellian Monism: Dismissed because non-relational
"intrinsic
    natures" cannot account for the structured, relational, differential
    character of phenomenal experience.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 22:41:52 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 14:41:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ+6uucp6jYEecfhMA2gkq31LHpJBxAOV3MBO+Xg7Rvww@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007101dd6d76$db08abd0$911a0370$@rainier66.com>


>>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 2:00?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


>>... From what I can tell, Sweden is nearly indistinguishable from the US system

>...In the very email you replied to, Henrik gave a bunch of differences.
I'll copy and paste the table he gave, in case you missed it:

| | Sweden | U.S. |
|---|---|---|
| Cost (% of GDP) | ~11% | ~18% |
| Coverage | Everyone, automatically | ~92% insured, with gaps | Cost if 
| you get sick | Max ~$140/year | Can reach tens of thousands
(deductibles) |
| Wait for planned care | Often months; ~35% wait >90 days | Often
shorter ? if you're insured |
| Choice | Choose your clinic (private included), but no insurance to
pick | Pick your insurance, but network restrictions |
| The citizen's "cost" | High income tax (~30?35% total) | Lower
taxes, but employer premiums |

_______________________________________________


Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already established: the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.  In the states, we have robust intellectual property law.  The pharma companies can't really charge those prices outside the USA, because those countries could duplicate the formulas at low expense, resulting in the US-based pharma company losing the sale and facing bankruptcy.  If medical research doesn't pay, medical research doesn't happen.  Investors go elsewhere.

Sweden took in a lot of US citizens during the Vietnam war.  One might conclude they would take them now.  I met yank expatriates while I was in Sweden last spring.  Going there is an option.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov  5 22:46:31 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 14:46:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0LDNFKdHvWKHQaRP7c8xVZfzX+n9x=1s7A=TQFaNNMTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1793662790.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <007201dd6d77$812dc860$83895920$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
?

> Come back in six years John.  If AI doesn?t kill everybody, we must deal with a retirement plan which can only pay out what the taxpayers pay in.

 

>?As usual you dodged my question. I did not ask if you thought Medicare or Social Security were good ideas or bad, I asked if you believed they were unconstitutional; and your lack of candor makes me believe you probably do. If so I can't really blame you for being evasive, I'd also be embarrassed to admit I believed in something that silly. 

 

 John K Clark

 

 

The supreme court upheld it, so I must defer to the experts.  If they say it is constitutional, then it is.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 02:11:35 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 21:11:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2026, 5:41?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already
> established: the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.
> In the states, we have robust intellectual property law.  The pharma
> companies can't really charge those prices outside the USA, because those
> countries could duplicate the formulas at low expense, resulting in the
> US-based pharma company losing the sale and facing bankruptcy.
>

Sweden's IP laws are comparable to the USA's.  This is not the primary
reason for higher drug prices in the USA.

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 02:17:07 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 18:17:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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Message-ID: <019f01dd6d94$ec92e460$c5b8ad20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026, 5:41?PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

>?Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already established?

 

>?Sweden's IP laws are comparable to the USA's.  This is not the primary reason for higher drug prices in the USA?. Adrian

 

 

 

Good then we should just use low priced medications developed in Sweden and not buy them from us.

 

spike

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 02:25:42 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 21:25:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2026, 9:17?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2026, 5:41?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> >?Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already
> established?
>
>
>
> >?Sweden's IP laws are comparable to the USA's.  This is not the primary
> reason for higher drug prices in the USA?. Adrian
>
>
>
> Good then we should just use low priced medications developed in Sweden
> and not buy them from us.
>
Even the medications developed in Sweden cost more in the USA.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 02:29:26 2026
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 18:29:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4FZC3vome=xvxTJa7_dr7gGccU_jurgkE1KGjYwCqV1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 6:18?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2026, 5:41?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> >?Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already
> established?
>
> >?Sweden's IP laws are comparable to the USA's.  This is not the primary
> reason for higher drug prices in the USA?. Adrian
>
>
>
> Good then we should just use low priced medications developed in Sweden
> and not buy them from us.
>
>
>
We are already buying a lot of designed in the US medications from China or
the precursors.

But within a few years we will be buying designed in China drugs because
their Pharma is growing larger than the US.

I could say a lot about Indian drugs, but for it to make sense I would have
to talk about stuff I don't often mention.

Keith

> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
Best wishes,

Keith
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 05:45:32 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 06:45:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
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If the prices in the USA actually went to drug development I wouldn't be
upset at all.
However much of your prices are pure predation and do not result in
anything other than wealth to persons and companies who do not contribute
at all to anything useful.

Again an summary since writing on my phone is bad, this is however
something I would be prepared to spend time on so l am sorry for using this
shortcut.
I am using the epipen prices as an example since mylans famous price hike
doesn't result in any gain what so ever for any sophont living in US. Mylan
did not develop adrenaline and bought everything from another company who
didn't develop shite either.
Only brilliant profits here.
/Henrik

## The EpiPen Price Scandal: A Case Study in Cronyism, Not Capitalism

When Mylan acquired the rights to the EpiPen in 2007, a two-pack cost about
$100. By 2016, it was over $600 ? a 500% increase on a device that delivers
roughly a dollar's worth of epinephrine (Seven Pillars Institute, House
Oversight Committee). Here's the part that should bother every believer in
free markets: this wasn't the market working. It was the market being
*blocked* ? by a company gaming Washington, a slow-moving FDA, and a cozy
relationship between Big Pharma and the political class.

### The price hikes

Mylan raised the list price steadily rather than in one shocking jump:
$103.50 in 2009, $264.50 by 2013, $461 in 2015, $608.61 by 2016 ? while
holding roughly 90?95% of the market with no generic rival in sight (Seven
Pillars Institute). CEO Heather Bresch defended the increases before
Congress in September 2016, blaming "the complexity of the health-care
system" rather than the company's own conduct (USA Today, Drug Discovery &
Development).

Worth noting for the political angle: Bresch is the daughter of former West
Virginia governor and U.S. senator Joe Manchin ([Snopes](
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bresch-manchin-daughter/)). And her
mother, Gayle Manchin, as president of West Virginia's Board of Education,
spearheaded a campaign that pushed states to require schools to stock
EpiPens ? helping build Mylan's near-monopoly in the school health sector,
an arrangement USA Today flagged as a clear conflict of interest
([Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayle_Conelly_Manchin)). EpiPen
sales passed $1 billion for the first time in 2015 (Seven Pillars
Institute).

### The playbook: how Mylan kept prices up and competitors out

**1. Cheating Medicaid ? on the taxpayer's dime.** Mylan classified EpiPen
as a *generic* drug in the Medicaid rebate program even though it marketed
and priced it as a brand-name product with no therapeutic equivalent.
Generic classification meant far lower rebates ? so Mylan could hike prices
in the private market while shortchanging state Medicaid programs. The
company settled with the Justice Department in 2017 for **$465 million**;
HHS's own inspector general estimated taxpayers were shorted as much as
**$1.27 billion** (US DOJ, BioPharma Dive). The scheme was exposed by
Sanofi ? a competitor that was *paying* the higher brand-name rebates on
its rival product (Healthcare Finance News).

**2. Pay-for-delay with Teva.** When Teva prepared to launch a generic
EpiPen, a 2012 patent settlement kept it off the market. Plaintiffs alleged
a quid pro quo: Teva delayed its EpiPen generic, and Mylan in return held
back its own generic of Teva's drug Nuvigil. That's not competition ? it's
two companies agreeing consumers lose. Viatris (Mylan's successor) settled
the antitrust suit in 2022 for **$264 million**; Pfizer, which manufactured
the EpiPen, earlier paid **$345 million** to consumers and insurers (NBC
News, Fierce Pharma, Fierce Pharma).

**3. Buying off the middlemen.** Mylan allegedly used rebate and fee
arrangements with pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs) ? the opaque gatekeepers
of the drug-pricing system ? to keep competing auto-injectors off insurance
formularies, locking out products like Adrenaclick and Auvi-Q (Wellzrx,
BioPharma Dive). The PBM system itself, with its total lack of
transparency, is a big part of why price hikes don't get punished the way
they would in a real market (House Oversight Committee).

**4. EpiPen4Schools ? "free" pens with strings attached.** Mylan offered
schools free or deeply discounted EpiPens, on the condition they agreed not
to purchase competitors' products for a period ? effectively wiring EpiPen
into the entire public school submarket and training a generation of
parents to ask for it by name. The New York Attorney General and U.S.
senators opened investigations into the program's exclusivity terms in 2016
(US District Court, Kansas).

**5. Regulatory barriers doing the rest.** Auto-injectors are hard to copy
and slow to get through the FDA ? a barrier the House Oversight Committee
itself acknowledged as a reason competitors stayed out (House Oversight
Committee). Sanofi's rival Auvi-Q was separately pulled from the market in
2015 over a device defect, leaving Mylan essentially alone (Chemanager).

### The bottom line

At the House hearing, Rep. Elijah Cummings put it bluntly: Mylan raised
prices "to get filthy rich at the expense of constituents" (Drug Discovery
& Development). After the outrage, Mylan rolled out its own "authorized
generic" at half price ? a move critics saw less as price relief and more
as a way to protect margins ahead of real competitors (Healthcare Finance
News).

The conservative takeaway is straightforward: this is what happens when
competition is *prevented* ? through Medicaid misclassification,
pay-for-delay deals, PBM backscratching, and exclusive school contracts ?
rather than allowed to work. A device containing a dollar of medicine sold
for $600 not because of the free market, but because the free market was
never allowed to show up. When government programs can be gamed and
regulatory hurdles shield incumbents, the taxpayer and the patient pay the
bill (Wellzrx).

Den fre 6 nov. 2026 03:32Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

> On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 6:18?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2026, 5:41?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>> >?Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already
>> established?
>>
>> >?Sweden's IP laws are comparable to the USA's.  This is not the primary
>> reason for higher drug prices in the USA?. Adrian
>>
>>
>>
>> Good then we should just use low priced medications developed in Sweden
>> and not buy them from us.
>>
>>
>>
> We are already buying a lot of designed in the US medications from China
> or the precursors.
>
> But within a few years we will be buying designed in China drugs because
> their Pharma is growing larger than the US.
>
> I could say a lot about Indian drugs, but for it to make sense I would
> have to talk about stuff I don't often mention.
>
> Keith
>
>> spike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> --
> Best wishes,
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Fri Nov  6 08:57:21 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2026 08:57:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <RCNpowBTwXDeYGdWlYpwNzGCurSvAYjL6cmvBm9XyLNUYl_V7kg45F8f89thyEkqedbSafcWFtwIUymX7QAPuwir71qaAOIeKRD9fu_W5M0=@proton.me>

On 05/11/2026 22:46, spike wrote:
> Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already established: the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.


No, spike, we did not establish that. You claimed that, which is a different thing.

>From https://www.goodrx.com/drugs/savings/why-are-prescription-drugs-more-expensive-in-the-us-than-in-other-countries:

"People in the U.S. are regularly paying more for prescription medication than most places around the world. One of the major hurdles to lowering drug costs has been not allowing the government to negotiate prices with companies. But that will change soon because of the Inflation Reduction Act. Starting in 2026, the U.S. is set to negotiate prices on select high-cost drugs for Medicare beneficiaries."

This should be a good test of your claim. According to you, it should precipitate the collapse of the drug companies, because they will no longer be able to charge the high prices they have been doing, which, according to you, is essential for them to make back what they spend developing the drugs.

If your claim is wrong, and the high prices are actually a result of profiteering, then they will not collapse, they will just have poorer shareholders.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Fri Nov  6 09:28:23 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2026 09:28:23 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <2TuAeKhy7Hm2oE5SeyUue37zk7cCONdkp3Dc44photOwfe1uByqKYAQkYFVpYXFIxQpLWae0_90FFsyG03M6B-1loZC_hnwQuLqHjHgON_8=@proton.me>

This seems to be a balanced view of the issue:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/11/30/12945756/prescription-drug-prices-explained

Although it still doesn't acknowledge the underlying malady, which is "I want to be rich, and I don't care how many poor people die as a consequence".

---
Ben


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 13:12:36 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 08:12:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <007101dd6d76$db08abd0$911a0370$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <gwrbWV9CgeBrT4F1zmd09HVPhaQzQU_ECVjV2XjvBFySzm-6yf0ad9rRleEW0x58luM_s5IpG5DR_-YdK34julBrp0j5XJQBxqrSs2D4-3o=@proton.me>
 <015101dd6bbc$06a3ba80$13eb2f80$@rainier66.com>
 <qy2Y4ahKRWW0f5iJZBQGv7BSxKr_eaZtFgHg2jI9Ly0G5A3kleZTAi2Ycx7J8uo-_Vwksls9dalEIIRR5G9CIueCr8C_UWZswC6XxS95ab0=@proton.me>
 <032a01dd6c63$dafb5750$90f205f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnhFXMK9K-oci-SnN7WpEGrqZYZKyN3eS921se61he_ZsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001d01dd6d57$a68d8de0$f3a8a9a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ+6uucp6jYEecfhMA2gkq31LHpJBxAOV3MBO+Xg7Rvww@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101dd6d76$db08abd0$911a0370$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv11b7qoWmSLbfHa34efcv1Q_yCUdC2NeLSKh_Oc106q4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 5:43?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


*> Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, *


*Yes, a LOT more.*

*> for reasons we already established:*


*No, you have never done that.  *


* > the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.  *


*But you have never coherently explained why US citizens and US
citizens ALONE must pay for the ENTIRE research and development costs of
every drug in existence, even though they are only 4% of the world's
population. And even if the US had nothing to do with the R&D or
manufacturer of the drug! *

*Take the weight reducing drug Wegovy for example, the researched
development for it was NOT made by US scientists, it was discovered by
DANISH scientists in DENMARK who worked for the DANISH drug company Novo
Nordisk which manufactures the drug in DENMARK. So I asked GPT the
following question: *

*ME: How does the cost of Wegovy in the USA compare to its cost in Canada
and Denmark?*

*GPT: *Wegovy is *considerably more expensive in the United States than in
Canada or Denmark**.* The difference can be substantial, particularly for
someone paying out of pocket rather than using insurance.There is an
important distinction between the drug distributors list price, the price
pharmacies actually charge, and the price patients pay after insurance or
government subsidies.

      Monthly cost comparison (November 2026)

The following compares the injectable 2.4 mg maintenance dose, the standard
full dose for weight loss.

Country

Approximate monthly price in US dollars

United States ? regular list price

$1,349

United States ? manufacturer cash price

 $349

Canada ? pharmacy cash price

$270?$410

Denmark ? pharmacy cash price

$350?$360
The* American list price is almost four times the Danish price and roughly
four to five times the Canadian price*. This is a good illustration of how
dramatically pharmaceutical pricing differs between countries, even when
the medication is manufactured by the same company. The difference isn't
primarily the cost of manufacturing the drug.* It reflects differences in
national drug-pricing systems, insurance arrangements, and pharmaceutical
bargaining power.*

*John K Clark*




>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 14:06:51 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:06:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3aBHuiOYV3tjuVFmUbr4AaajJ7xcui5LVeWZxQpY0Fjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3aBHuiOYV3tjuVFmUbr4AaajJ7xcui5LVeWZxQpY0Fjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv31vyOQFN68dVV2SAwBPbS2OFZZyd46+KdfCMtV=HF5AA@mail.gmail.com>

*The local opposition to new AI data centers in the USA has started to
worry me, so I asked GPT another question. *

*ME: What are the prospects of building multi-gigawatt AI Data centers in
Canada?*

*GPT: " *Canada is potentially one of the world's best locations for
enormous AI data centers. In some respects, I think it has a better
long-term opportunity than Iceland because it combines abundant freshwater,
a cold climate, enormous hydroelectric resources, and a much larger land
area and electricity system. But there is a paradox: *Canada has enormous
energy resources, yet it currently has surprisingly little spare
electricity available in the places where data-center developers want to
build. *The distinction between energy resources and electricity that can
actually be delivered to a particular site is crucial.

I would look particularly at four provinces.

1. Quebec

Enormous hydroelectric resources, relatively inexpensive electricity and a
cold climate. Probably one of the most attractive long-term locations,
provided Hydro-Qu?bec can expand generation and transmission

2. Alberta

The most interesting near-term development story. It has abundant natural
gas and is actively attracting data-center investment. Dedicated power
plants could bypass some grid constraints.

3. Manitoba

Extensive hydroelectric resources and a relatively small population. Worth
investigating for long-term developments, although new transmission and
generation would be necessary for gigawatt-scale projects.

4. British Columbia

Excellent hydroelectric resources and climate. However, the provincial
government is rationing new electricity allocations for AI and data centers.

*The surprising leader in actual investment: Alberta*

Alberta is particularly interesting because Meta has announced an
investment exceeding US $9.1 billion in a major AI data center in Sturgeon
County. The associated electricity project is a 932-megawatt
natural-gas-fired power plant. Operations are expected to begin in the
second half of 2030.

This illustrates an important strategy: instead of waiting for the
provincial electricity grid to supply an enormous new load, developers can
build dedicated power generation alongside the data center. Alberta has
substantial natural-gas resources, so this approach is feasible. However,
Alberta has received requests for approximately 21 GW of data-center
connections, while its electricity system operator has indicated that only
1.2 GW of additional data-center load could be accommodated by 2028 without
compromising reliability. That is a remarkable difference between
developers' ambitions and the electricity actually available.

*Why Quebec might be the biggest long-term opportunity*

Quebec has something Alberta doesn't: an enormous established hydroelectric
system. Hydro-Qu?bec generates large quantities of relatively inexpensive,
low-carbon electricity. Its reservoirs also provide flexibility to balance
electricity demand. But Quebec has already encountered a problem:
technology companies have expressed interest in more electricity than the
province can readily provide. Hydro-Qu?bec has consequently restricted new
electricity allocations for large data-center developments while it
evaluates its future generating and transmission requirements. For a
company thinking 10?15 years ahead, however, Quebec deserves serious
consideration.

*British Columbia is another interesting case*

British Columbia has abundant hydroelectricity, but its government has
decided that electricity allocation must be competitive.

Its current two-year allocation framework provides:

   -

   300 MW for AI data centers.
   -

   100 MW for conventional data centers.
   -

   200 MW for hydrogen-for-export projects.

Its 2026 application round received 15 applications requesting nearly 800
MW in total.This illustrates that abundant hydroelectric resources do not
automatically translate into unrestricted access for data-center developers.

*How much data-center construction is Canada actually anticipating?*

A useful October 2026 industry assessment from Colliers found:

   -

   Approximately 1.415 GW of operating data-center capacity in Canada.
   -

   At least 5.5 GW of named projects either planned or under construction.
   -

   Alberta accounts for most of the visible development pipeline.


Those figures are encouraging, but planned projects are not necessarily
financed, approved, connected to electricity or ultimately constructed.

The Canadian government's own energy outlook is more cautious. Its baseline
scenario anticipates an additional 1.5 GW of data-center electricity demand
by 2030. Its high-growth scenario anticipates 2.7 GW.

Canada has also introduced national principles requiring data centers to
protect electricity ratepayers, minimize water consumption and provide
lasting benefits to Canadian communities.

*My biggest question: Could Canada accommodate a 3 GW AI campus?*

A hypothetical 3 GW AI data center ( annual electricity consumption at
continuous full power would be 26.28  terawatt-hours) that would require:

   -

   Several new large power-generation projects.
   -

   Major transmission infrastructure.
   -

   Substantial backup generation and grid support.
   -

   A dedicated cooling and water-management system.
   -

   Long-term agreements protecting the electricity supply.

I think this is technically achievable in Canada, particularly through a
combination of hydroelectricity, natural gas, nuclear power and new
renewable generation. But I would not expect a 3 GW facility to materialize
quickly using existing spare electricity.
My particular interest would be Quebec and Manitoba for
hydroelectric-powered AI, and Alberta for dedicated-power developments. One
final thought: I suspect Canada could eventually become an important
alternative to the United States for AI computing, particularly for
training large models where a few milliseconds of additional network
latency are relatively unimportant.

The question isn't whether Canada has enough natural resources. It does.
The question is whether it can build generating capacity, transmission
lines and data centers quickly enough to capitalize on those resources.
That is an infrastructure and political challenge, rather than a
technological one."

*John K Clark*








On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 8:42?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> *Many newly elected Democratic governors have advocated a pause an AI Data
> Center construction, so I asked GPT the following question:*
>
> *ME: What state looks to you like the most attractive for building large
> data centers in the next few years?*
>
>
> *GPT*: "I would pay particular attention to these five states:
>
>    1.
>
>    Georgia: Strong site-readiness measurements, but local opposition is
>    significant.
>    2.
>
>    Tennessee: Attractive combination of infrastructure and development
>    opportunities.
>    3.
>
>    South Carolina: Another promising southeastern location.
>    4.
>
>    Texas: Enormous potential, but substantial uncertainty over
>    electricity and permitting.
>    5.
>
>    Pennsylvania: Particularly interesting because of its natural-gas
>    resources and existing electrical infrastructure.
>
> Florida is also competitive, but faces its own land-use, water,
> electricity and hurricane-related challenges.
>
> I think we may be approaching a situation in which the availability of
> electricity, rather than the availability of money or computer chips,
> becomes the principal constraint on AI expansion. That could produce some
> surprising winners among states that currently receive relatively little
> attention in discussions about the AI industry."
> *ME: Iceland has lots of freshwater and cheap energy due to hydroelectric
> and geothermal power, so would that be a good place to build multi gigawatt
> AI data centers?*
>
> GPT: "Iceland is potentially an excellent location for a specialized AI
> computing facility in the 300 Megawatt range, but Iceland does not
> currently have the electrical infrastructure to accommodate the enormous
> multi-gigawatt campuses being contemplated by the largest American
> technology companies.  But two other countries probably could accommodate
> them,  Norway and Finland. Norway has enormous hydroelectric resources,
> Finland has substantial nuclear and other generation capacity, and both
> have much larger electricity systems than Iceland. I would investigate
> those two countries very seriously as potential European destinations for
> gigantic AI computing facilities."
>
> *John K Clark*
>
>
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 14:17:14 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:17:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?These_Newly_Elected_Lawmakers_Know_Something_Tru?=
	=?utf-8?b?bXAgRG9lc27igJl0OiBTY2llbmNl?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv25A_ipto55ivpm8v5OR3LcfNciyHWN6aW5TZJpW3UUqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Explore this gift article from The New York Times. You can read it for free
without a subscription.

These Newly Elected Lawmakers Know Something Trump Doesn?t: Science

Among those elected to Congress on Tuesday are a mathematician, a
microbiologist and a chemical engineer. They plan to take on a White House
that has threatened funding cuts to research.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/11/06/science/scientists-election-congress.html?unlocked_article_code=1.OVE.CORi.2GGOa3CWF85o&smid=em-share
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 14:34:40 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 14:34:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How Robots discover the hard problem of consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjENY2dxqfObvuLe56jkfSS1xBax9gVOAYDsEbNReHnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+BCJUh0F5Lv5jB=crVofZsd29LibqeejSwFyo+TTqKiBRtVBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjENY2dxqfObvuLe56jkfSS1xBax9gVOAYDsEbNReHnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg5iYyN4-uC2-rG5WRknPzU4z67XD1=+a3NirfA2JJfdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Nov 2026 at 22:34, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I asked Gemini 3.8 Flash AI to extract the text and summarize it.
> BillK
>


I followed up with a discussion on this paper with Gemini.
My final question to Gemini was, "Is the conclusion of this paper likely to
be correct?"
Gemini produced an interesting report on the current state of consciousness
research.
See below.
BillK

Gemini 3.8 Flash AI:

Whether Jason K. Resch?s conclusion is "correct" depends on which
foundational
commitments in the philosophy of mind and cognitive science one accepts. In
the
broader academic community, his conclusion is highly contentious and far
from
universally accepted, though it represents an exceptionally sophisticated,
mathematically grounded defense of computational functionalism and
type-identity
theory.

To evaluate whether his conclusion is likely to be correct, we need to
examine
what his framework achieves, where it succeeds, and where rival theories
argue
it fundamentally stumbles.

Why the Conclusion is Compelling (The Strengths)

Resch?s framework provides one of the cleanest physicalist accounts of the
mind
currently available, particularly for computer scientists and roboticists:

1.  It avoids the trap of Epiphenomenalism (The Anti-Zombie Dilemma):
Resch?s
    "Sealed Annex" dilemma against philosophical zombies is philosophically
    formidable. If qualia (the raw feels) are non-physical or separate from
the
    functional causal organization (O), they cannot causally influence vocal
    cords or keyboards. If they cannot influence behavior, then David
Chalmers,
    Ren? Descartes, and you could not have written papers about qualia
because
    of those qualia. By asserting an identity (P_C \equiv K_C), Resch neatly
    preserves mental causation and physical causal closure.

2.  A Rigorous Explanation of the Explanatory Gap (Occupation vs.
Description):
    One of the best contributions of the paper is explaining why the
physicalist
    account feels intuitively wrong to us. The distinction between
occupying a
    state and describing it (combined with the "epistemic firewall" of
virtual
    machines) explains why Mary?s room, Nagel?s bat, and our own
introspection
    deceive us into thinking consciousness must be something beyond
physics. It
    turns an ontological mystery (dualism) into an epistemic limit
    (virtualization and perspective).

3.  Engineering Rigor (Event Graphs and Causal Interventions): By grounding
    implementation in James Woodward?s interventionist causality and acyclic
    causal event graphs, Resch solves the "Goldilocks problem" that plagued
    earlier functionalists (like Putnam and Searle, who claimed that any
wall or
    rock implements Word/a mind). His "Center Rule" gives an operational
    algorithm for finding the boundary of an agent.

Why Many Philosophers and Scientists Would Argue It Is Incorrect

Despite its elegance, Resch's conclusion faces severe philosophical and
empirical objections:

1. It Solves the Hard Problem by Defining It Away (The "Inside" Fallacy)

The central move of the paper is the identity claim: P_C \equiv K_C
(Phenomenal
Character IS Centered Knowledge).

  - The Critique: Critics like David Chalmers, Thomas Nagel, or John Searle
    would argue that this is a sleight of hand. Resch defines centered
knowledge
    as "causally effective discrimination used to steer continuation," and
then
    simply asserts that this discrimination has an "inside".
  - But the original Hard Problem asks: Why should causal discrimination
have an
    "inside" at all? Why shouldn't a system steer its continuation
completely in
    the dark, with no subjective experience whatsoever? Declaring them
identical
    by definition does not explain why there is something it is like to
occupy a
    register.

2. The Absurdity of Extreme Liberality (The Thermostat Problem)

Resch explicitly bites the bullet on the First-Distinction Hypothesis
(K_{\min}):

  - Because he defines consciousness as the causal possession of at least
one
    distinction used to govern action, he is forced to conclude that an ABS
    brake controller, a nematode, and a basic bimetallic thermostat have a
    "modicum of subjective experience."
  - The Critique: This pushes the theory into a form of pancomputationalism
/
    micro-functionalism. To the vast majority of neuroscientists and
    philosophers, claiming that a household thermostat has an "inner life"
or
    feels what it is like to switch on a furnace is a reductio ad absurdum
(an
    absurd conclusion that disproves the premise). It trivializes the word
    "consciousness."

3. Conflating Self-Modeling with Actual Experience (The Meta-Problem Gap)

Resch uses the autonomous vehicle and Argonov?s test to show that a machine
will
inevitably report an explanatory gap and wonder about qualia.

  - The Critique: Ned Block famously distinguished between Access
Consciousness
    (information broadcast and used for reasoning/control) and Phenomenal
    Consciousness (what it actually feels like).
  - An autonomous car that reads its own latency logs and concludes "my
code for
    red does not equal being in the red state" has simply performed an
epistemic
    self-diagnosis. It proves that an architecture with self-monitoring and
    limits on internal access will generate judgments about an explanatory
gap.
    But simulating or generating the judgment "I am experiencing something
    unexplainable" is not proof that there is an actual phenomenal feel
behind
    the judgment. (Today's Large Language Models can already reason about
Nagel
    and Mary without being sentient).

4. The Rejection of Substrate and Recurrence (Clash with Neuroscience & IIT)

Resch argues that:

  - Substrate does not matter (silicon, carbon, or vacuum tubes are
identical if
    the event graph matches).
  - Recurrence is merely an "engineering economy" (feed-forward networks
with
    enough depth have the same consciousness as recurrent brains).
  - The Critique:
      - Integrated Information Theory (IIT) (Tononi, Koch), one of the
leading
        empirical frameworks in neuroscience, directly contradicts this. IIT
        proves mathematically that an unfolded feed-forward network has an
        integrated information value of zero (\Phi = 0). According to IIT,
        feed-forward systems are absolute zombies with zero subjective
        experience, no matter how intelligently they behave.
      - Biological Naturalism: Proponents of biological wetware argue that
        physical causal powers (neurotransmitters, ion channels, continuous
        chemical gradients) cannot be replicated by discrete digital state
        transitions?just as a computer simulation of a rainstorm does not
make
        the inside of the computer wet.

The Verdict: Is it likely to be correct?

  - As a purely scientific/engineering framework for AI and robotics: Very
    likely correct. If your goal is to build autonomous systems that have
    unified action selection, model their own cognitive limitations,
understand
    other agents, and adaptively handle valenced goals (pain/pleasure),
Resch?s
    causal event graph and ConsScale taxonomy offer an exceptionally sound
    architectural roadmap.
  - As a metaphysical resolution to the Hard Problem: Unlikely to convince
    non-functionalists. Resch does not truly solve the Hard Problem on
    Chalmers's terms; he deflates it. He adopts a functionalist/identity
stance
    where qualia are stripped of any non-functional mystery, leaving only
    differential causal graphs.

If you are a physicalist who believes that consciousness is just "what
computation feels like from within its own data-stream," Resch's paper is
one of
the most coherent formulations of that view. But if you believe that
subjective
experience (the actual redness of red, or the raw agony of pain) cannot be
fully
captured by causal flowcharts and Boolean branch conditions, then Resch?s
thesis?like all functionalism before it?has described the machinery of the
mind
while leaving the subject unexplained.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 14:42:14 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:42:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How A.I. Just Blew Up a Key Tenet of Computer Science
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1MBXEhutWQ3U-YDwvd62hMp26Ku+wWkhx6RM1Nz=0tuw@mail.gmail.com>

Explore this gift article from The New York Times. You can read it for free
without a subscription.

How A.I. Just Blew Up a Key Tenet of Computer Science

A longstanding hypothesis held that some problems would always be hard for
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 14:47:38 2026
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:47:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Robots discover the hard problem of consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg5iYyN4-uC2-rG5WRknPzU4z67XD1=+a3NirfA2JJfdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+BCJUh0F5Lv5jB=crVofZsd29LibqeejSwFyo+TTqKiBRtVBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjENY2dxqfObvuLe56jkfSS1xBax9gVOAYDsEbNReHnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg5iYyN4-uC2-rG5WRknPzU4z67XD1=+a3NirfA2JJfdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUj57n8ziviBmhTPY7wvVE7iC6c-_AWBqNVDDkjy3neFrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Bill! These are quite reasonable assessments and summaries of the
presentation.

Jason


On Fri, Nov 6, 2026, 9:36?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2026 at 22:34, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I asked Gemini 3.8 Flash AI to extract the text and summarize it.
>> BillK
>>
>
>
> I followed up with a discussion on this paper with Gemini.
> My final question to Gemini was, "Is the conclusion of this paper likely
> to be correct?"
> Gemini produced an interesting report on the current state of
> consciousness research.
> See below.
> BillK
>
> Gemini 3.8 Flash AI:
>
> Whether Jason K. Resch?s conclusion is "correct" depends on which
> foundational
> commitments in the philosophy of mind and cognitive science one accepts.
> In the
> broader academic community, his conclusion is highly contentious and far
> from
> universally accepted, though it represents an exceptionally sophisticated,
> mathematically grounded defense of computational functionalism and
> type-identity
> theory.
>
> To evaluate whether his conclusion is likely to be correct, we need to
> examine
> what his framework achieves, where it succeeds, and where rival theories
> argue
> it fundamentally stumbles.
>
> Why the Conclusion is Compelling (The Strengths)
>
> Resch?s framework provides one of the cleanest physicalist accounts of the
> mind
> currently available, particularly for computer scientists and roboticists:
>
> 1.  It avoids the trap of Epiphenomenalism (The Anti-Zombie Dilemma):
> Resch?s
>     "Sealed Annex" dilemma against philosophical zombies is philosophically
>     formidable. If qualia (the raw feels) are non-physical or separate
> from the
>     functional causal organization (O), they cannot causally influence
> vocal
>     cords or keyboards. If they cannot influence behavior, then David
> Chalmers,
>     Ren? Descartes, and you could not have written papers about qualia
> because
>     of those qualia. By asserting an identity (P_C \equiv K_C), Resch
> neatly
>     preserves mental causation and physical causal closure.
>
> 2.  A Rigorous Explanation of the Explanatory Gap (Occupation vs.
> Description):
>     One of the best contributions of the paper is explaining why the
> physicalist
>     account feels intuitively wrong to us. The distinction between
> occupying a
>     state and describing it (combined with the "epistemic firewall" of
> virtual
>     machines) explains why Mary?s room, Nagel?s bat, and our own
> introspection
>     deceive us into thinking consciousness must be something beyond
> physics. It
>     turns an ontological mystery (dualism) into an epistemic limit
>     (virtualization and perspective).
>
> 3.  Engineering Rigor (Event Graphs and Causal Interventions): By grounding
>     implementation in James Woodward?s interventionist causality and
> acyclic
>     causal event graphs, Resch solves the "Goldilocks problem" that plagued
>     earlier functionalists (like Putnam and Searle, who claimed that any
> wall or
>     rock implements Word/a mind). His "Center Rule" gives an operational
>     algorithm for finding the boundary of an agent.
>
> Why Many Philosophers and Scientists Would Argue It Is Incorrect
>
> Despite its elegance, Resch's conclusion faces severe philosophical and
> empirical objections:
>
> 1. It Solves the Hard Problem by Defining It Away (The "Inside" Fallacy)
>
> The central move of the paper is the identity claim: P_C \equiv K_C
> (Phenomenal
> Character IS Centered Knowledge).
>
>   - The Critique: Critics like David Chalmers, Thomas Nagel, or John Searle
>     would argue that this is a sleight of hand. Resch defines centered
> knowledge
>     as "causally effective discrimination used to steer continuation," and
> then
>     simply asserts that this discrimination has an "inside".
>   - But the original Hard Problem asks: Why should causal discrimination
> have an
>     "inside" at all? Why shouldn't a system steer its continuation
> completely in
>     the dark, with no subjective experience whatsoever? Declaring them
> identical
>     by definition does not explain why there is something it is like to
> occupy a
>     register.
>
> 2. The Absurdity of Extreme Liberality (The Thermostat Problem)
>
> Resch explicitly bites the bullet on the First-Distinction Hypothesis
> (K_{\min}):
>
>   - Because he defines consciousness as the causal possession of at least
> one
>     distinction used to govern action, he is forced to conclude that an ABS
>     brake controller, a nematode, and a basic bimetallic thermostat have a
>     "modicum of subjective experience."
>   - The Critique: This pushes the theory into a form of
> pancomputationalism /
>     micro-functionalism. To the vast majority of neuroscientists and
>     philosophers, claiming that a household thermostat has an "inner life"
> or
>     feels what it is like to switch on a furnace is a reductio ad absurdum
> (an
>     absurd conclusion that disproves the premise). It trivializes the word
>     "consciousness."
>
> 3. Conflating Self-Modeling with Actual Experience (The Meta-Problem Gap)
>
> Resch uses the autonomous vehicle and Argonov?s test to show that a
> machine will
> inevitably report an explanatory gap and wonder about qualia.
>
>   - The Critique: Ned Block famously distinguished between Access
> Consciousness
>     (information broadcast and used for reasoning/control) and Phenomenal
>     Consciousness (what it actually feels like).
>   - An autonomous car that reads its own latency logs and concludes "my
> code for
>     red does not equal being in the red state" has simply performed an
> epistemic
>     self-diagnosis. It proves that an architecture with self-monitoring and
>     limits on internal access will generate judgments about an explanatory
> gap.
>     But simulating or generating the judgment "I am experiencing something
>     unexplainable" is not proof that there is an actual phenomenal feel
> behind
>     the judgment. (Today's Large Language Models can already reason about
> Nagel
>     and Mary without being sentient).
>
> 4. The Rejection of Substrate and Recurrence (Clash with Neuroscience &
> IIT)
>
> Resch argues that:
>
>   - Substrate does not matter (silicon, carbon, or vacuum tubes are
> identical if
>     the event graph matches).
>   - Recurrence is merely an "engineering economy" (feed-forward networks
> with
>     enough depth have the same consciousness as recurrent brains).
>   - The Critique:
>       - Integrated Information Theory (IIT) (Tononi, Koch), one of the
> leading
>         empirical frameworks in neuroscience, directly contradicts this.
> IIT
>         proves mathematically that an unfolded feed-forward network has an
>         integrated information value of zero (\Phi = 0). According to IIT,
>         feed-forward systems are absolute zombies with zero subjective
>         experience, no matter how intelligently they behave.
>       - Biological Naturalism: Proponents of biological wetware argue that
>         physical causal powers (neurotransmitters, ion channels, continuous
>         chemical gradients) cannot be replicated by discrete digital state
>         transitions?just as a computer simulation of a rainstorm does not
> make
>         the inside of the computer wet.
>
> The Verdict: Is it likely to be correct?
>
>   - As a purely scientific/engineering framework for AI and robotics: Very
>     likely correct. If your goal is to build autonomous systems that have
>     unified action selection, model their own cognitive limitations,
> understand
>     other agents, and adaptively handle valenced goals (pain/pleasure),
> Resch?s
>     causal event graph and ConsScale taxonomy offer an exceptionally sound
>     architectural roadmap.
>   - As a metaphysical resolution to the Hard Problem: Unlikely to convince
>     non-functionalists. Resch does not truly solve the Hard Problem on
>     Chalmers's terms; he deflates it. He adopts a functionalist/identity
> stance
>     where qualia are stripped of any non-functional mystery, leaving only
>     differential causal graphs.
>
> If you are a physicalist who believes that consciousness is just "what
> computation feels like from within its own data-stream," Resch's paper is
> one of
> the most coherent formulations of that view. But if you believe that
> subjective
> experience (the actual redness of red, or the raw agony of pain) cannot be
> fully
> captured by causal flowcharts and Boolean branch conditions, then Resch?s
> thesis?like all functionalism before it?has described the machinery of the
> mind
> while leaving the subject unexplained.
> ---------------------
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 16:02:15 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 08:02:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <RCNpowBTwXDeYGdWlYpwNzGCurSvAYjL6cmvBm9XyLNUYl_V7kg45F8f89thyEkqedbSafcWFtwIUymX7QAPuwir71qaAOIeKRD9fu_W5M0=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <RCNpowBTwXDeYGdWlYpwNzGCurSvAYjL6cmvBm9XyLNUYl_V7kg45F8f89thyEkqedbSafcWFtwIUymX7QAPuwir71qaAOIeKRD9fu_W5M0=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <00bb01dd6e08$31ecf730$95c6e590$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben
Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On 05/11/2026 22:46, spike wrote:
> Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, for reasons we already
established: the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.


No, spike, we did not establish that. You claimed that, which is a different
thing.

From
https://www.goodrx.com/drugs/savings/why-are-prescription-drugs-more-expensi
ve-in-the-us-than-in-other-countries:

"People in the U.S. are regularly paying more for prescription
medication...Starting in 2026, the U.S. is set to negotiate prices on select
high-cost drugs for Medicare beneficiaries."

Starting in 2026. OK.  Did they?OK.  Did they?

>...This should be a good test of your claim. According to you, it should
precipitate the collapse of the drug companies, because they will no longer
be able to charge the high prices they have been doing, which, according to
you, is essential for them to make back what they spend developing the
drugs...

>...If your claim is wrong, and the high prices are actually a result of
profiteering 

Profiteering: is going to work profiteering?  Is investing profiteering?  Is
doing anything profiteering?  How are we defining the term?

Without profiteering, there is no profit, which means there is no
investment, which means there is no economic activity.

>...then they will not collapse, they will just have poorer shareholders.
-- 
Ben

_______________________________________________

Research is risky.  Most companies fail to find the profitable solution
first.  Without profiteering, there is no profit, and there are no
shareholders.  Shareholders go to other industries.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 16:04:49 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 08:04:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <2TuAeKhy7Hm2oE5SeyUue37zk7cCONdkp3Dc44photOwfe1uByqKYAQkYFVpYXFIxQpLWae0_90FFsyG03M6B-1loZC_hnwQuLqHjHgON_8=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2TuAeKhy7Hm2oE5SeyUue37zk7cCONdkp3Dc44photOwfe1uByqKYAQkYFVpYXFIxQpLWae0_90FFsyG03M6B-1loZC_hnwQuLqHjHgON_8=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <00bc01dd6e08$8df1a300$a9d4e900$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

This seems to be a balanced view of the issue:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/11/30/12945756/prescription-drug
-prices-explained

Although it still doesn't acknowledge the underlying malady, which is "I
want to be rich, and I don't care how many poor people die as a
consequence".

---
Ben

_______________________________________________


Ben this article is paywalled.  

Wanting to be rich is not a malady.  Investing in medical research doesn't
cause poor people to die, it finances medical research, which cures
maladies.

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 16:18:06 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 08:18:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv11b7qoWmSLbfHa34efcv1Q_yCUdC2NeLSKh_Oc106q4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <gwrbWV9CgeBrT4F1zmd09HVPhaQzQU_ECVjV2XjvBFySzm-6yf0ad9rRleEW0x58luM_s5IpG5DR_-YdK34julBrp0j5XJQBxqrSs2D4-3o=@proton.me>
 <015101dd6bbc$06a3ba80$13eb2f80$@rainier66.com>
 <qy2Y4ahKRWW0f5iJZBQGv7BSxKr_eaZtFgHg2jI9Ly0G5A3kleZTAi2Ycx7J8uo-_Vwksls9dalEIIRR5G9CIueCr8C_UWZswC6XxS95ab0=@proton.me>
 <032a01dd6c63$dafb5750$90f205f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnhFXMK9K-oci-SnN7WpEGrqZYZKyN3eS921se61he_ZsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001d01dd6d57$a68d8de0$f3a8a9a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ+6uucp6jYEecfhMA2gkq31LHpJBxAOV3MBO+Xg7Rvww@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101dd6d76$db08abd0$911a0370$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv11b7qoWmSLbfHa34efcv1Q_yCUdC2NeLSKh_Oc106q4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cd01dd6e0a$689cd5a0$39d680e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, 6 November, 2026 5:13 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 5:43?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

> Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, 

 

Yes, a LOT more.

 

> for reasons we already established:

 

No, you have never done that.  

 

 

 > the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.  

 

>?But you have never coherently explained why US citizens and US citizens ALONE must pay for the ENTIRE research and development costs of every drug in existence, even though they are only 4% of the world's population. And even if the US had nothing to do with the R&D or manufacturer of the drug! 

 

Every manufacturer of anything will charge what the market will bear John.  If the market will bear higher prices in the USA, the manufacturers will charge higher prices in the USA.

 

If you consider a drug too expensive, don?t buy it.  Drugs are controlled tightly in the USA.  Of course they are expensive.  Developing drugs is risky and expensive.  A lot of research is done in the USA, funded by investors from everywhere.  If investors don?t make a lot of money on the winners, they will not invest in the losers.  Since investors don?t know which companies will win, they take a risk.  Without a payoff, investors will not invest in any of the companies.  New medications will not be found.

 

What you should be asking yourself is with all the unfair pricing structures, why does so much medical research happen in the states.  Why do you think it is, John?  

 

spike

 

 

 

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 16:20:24 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 17:20:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <00bc01dd6e08$8df1a300$a9d4e900$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2TuAeKhy7Hm2oE5SeyUue37zk7cCONdkp3Dc44photOwfe1uByqKYAQkYFVpYXFIxQpLWae0_90FFsyG03M6B-1loZC_hnwQuLqHjHgON_8=@proton.me>
 <00bc01dd6e08$8df1a300$a9d4e900$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnguF559DoVCzjQ0oXEwrTaFK3-g-MH0OHR83Y_fxjqYSQ@mail.gmail.com>

There is nothing wrong with making money.
There is nothing wrong with being rich and wealthy.
There is all sorts of wrong making money by denying others their chances to
make money.
The corruption inherent in the us medical system, tech-bros, patent courts
in texas and many more examples from outside US too, are wrong, not because
they make money but because they hinder others from making money.
That is not capitalism,  that is outright robbery.
Do capitalism and I for one will be very happy.
Do robbery and in your case, support the robbers and receive negative
feedback.
This is supposed to be a forum for extropian ideas right?
Where do you find the extropy in predatory economics?
/Henrik

Den fre 6 nov. 2026 17:06spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>
> This seems to be a balanced view of the issue:
>
>
> https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/11/30/12945756/prescription-drug
> -prices-explained
> <https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/11/30/12945756/prescription-drug-prices-explained>
>
> Although it still doesn't acknowledge the underlying malady, which is "I
> want to be rich, and I don't care how many poor people die as a
> consequence".
>
> ---
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Ben this article is paywalled.
>
> Wanting to be rich is not a malady.  Investing in medical research doesn't
> cause poor people to die, it finances medical research, which cures
> maladies.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 16:40:55 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 08:40:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv31vyOQFN68dVV2SAwBPbS2OFZZyd46+KdfCMtV=HF5AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3aBHuiOYV3tjuVFmUbr4AaajJ7xcui5LVeWZxQpY0Fjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv31vyOQFN68dVV2SAwBPbS2OFZZyd46+KdfCMtV=HF5AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e801dd6e0d$98873190$c99594b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?

 

The local opposition to new AI data centers in the USA has started to worry me, so I asked GPT another question. 

 

ME: What are the prospects of building multi-gigawatt AI Data centers in Canada? John K Clark

 

 

>?GPT: " Canada is potentially one of the world's best locations for enormous AI data centers. In some respects, I think it has a better long-term opportunity than Iceland because it combines abundant freshwater, a cold climate, enormous hydroelectric resources, and a much larger land area and electricity system?

 

 

Alaska is better than Canada.  If hydroelectric power is used to power data centers, it runs up the price of power to locals: hydro is inherently limited.  If we could even find a suitable river without dams, the environmentalists will fight like demons to keep it that way.

 

Alaska has cold water available to dump the waste heat without need for fresh water: use a closed loop cooling system with a heat exchanger to dump waste heat directly into seawater without evaporation.  Burn natural gas or coal, which can be set up quickly.  A gas turbine is noisy but way out there in the Aleutian Islands, that doesn?t matter.  Hauling coal out there is not a show stopper.  

 

>From what I can tell, the limiting factor in Alaska is communications: being way out there in the sea suggests signals would need to come and go via satellite.  This could be done if we had one hell of a lot more satellites carrying signals.  This can be arranged.

 

Alaska is better than Canada for AI: the Canadian government cannot be trusted to keep its greedy paws off of the data centers.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 16:54:50 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 08:54:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnguF559DoVCzjQ0oXEwrTaFK3-g-MH0OHR83Y_fxjqYSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2TuAeKhy7Hm2oE5SeyUue37zk7cCONdkp3Dc44photOwfe1uByqKYAQkYFVpYXFIxQpLWae0_90FFsyG03M6B-1loZC_hnwQuLqHjHgON_8=@proton.me>
 <00bc01dd6e08$8df1a300$a9d4e900$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnguF559DoVCzjQ0oXEwrTaFK3-g-MH0OHR83Y_fxjqYSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010701dd6e0f$8a5f0230$9f1d0690$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

 

>?There is nothing wrong with making money. 

>?There is nothing wrong with being rich and wealthy.

>?There is all sorts of wrong making money by denying others their chances to make money?./Henrik 

 

 

Of course.  No one is restricted from investing in medical research.  Medical researchers who find the answer first and best must be allowed to profit from that successful research to whatever the market will bear.  I don?t see any other way.  Do you?  Do share please.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Fri Nov  6 17:17:17 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2026 17:17:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1793982049.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.11.1793982049.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <OetBB8ONl8pBlb8Z_jNIfEZrWw4qoEltN2CfPu4hmJFInLBM2SD-cvtSmT5YRIs6nXB1kkCt2bbqUondSqgm3HnSPsqGHZlf1CttJ5WZBkM=@proton.me>

On 06/11/2026 16:20, spike wrote:
> Profiteering: is going to work profiteering?  Is investing profiteering?  Is
> doing anything profiteering?  How are we defining the term?


The term has a well-established definition. I used the internet to look it up for you:

Profiteering
noun
The act of making an unreasonable profit not justified by the corresponding assumption of risk, or by doing so unethically.


> Research is risky. Most companies fail to find the profitable solution first. Without profiteering, there is no profit, and there are no shareholders. Shareholders go to other industries.


Reconsider your statement above, in light of the meaning of the word.

There are reasonable profits, and there is profiteering. Two different things. Can you now agree to that?

If so, try to explain the Epipen scenario that Henrik described as anything other than profiteering. Try to defend a $600 price for a $1 dose of a natural substance (no drug development involved) in a simple plastic and metal device. I don't know how much the pen costs to produce, but I suspect it will be less than the cost of the adrenaline it contains. Even if it costs $10 (which is ridiculous), that's a charge of $600 for something that costs $11. If that doesn't count as pure gouging, I don't know what does.

If not, please explain why you don't make a distinction between reasonable, justified and ethical profits, and unreasonable, unjustified and unethical profits.

-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Fri Nov  6 17:22:20 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2026 17:22:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1793982049.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.11.1793982049.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <gOo1kpJewSx2PGn9aI3nj1ctY5bCsUSbr-h033dcfV-H7FfXxD5WT46NVuw9VdWwZLUGsAIW1snIdAO-pxdKo0R3hVx51GmKqCc4upxGzK8=@proton.me>

On 06/11/2026 16:20, spike wrote:
>
> Ben this article is paywalled.


No it's not.
Not for me anyway.
Maybe it's just in America. Maybe they are trying to recover the cost of, er, writing a webpage? Just from americans of course.

Try turning off all scripting. The page works fine without.


> Wanting to be rich is not a malady.

I didn't say it was:
"I want to be rich, and I don't care how many poor people die as a consequence."

>   Investing in medical research doesn't
> cause poor people to die, it finances medical research, which cures
> maladies.


And I didn't say it did.
Please try to address the issues we are discussing, not straw men.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From benzaiboc at proton.me  Fri Nov  6 17:25:11 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2026 17:25:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
Message-ID: <4on10JbFvdCDr8295lcVaUIbMFACYlEjZhyqCcpdveLzAAhIr52b4xq_KgaklCzW7X1j9HOnKAGW-qs4YAp8zo5Icr8vFo9KiXxVM0zmsJo=@proton.me>

On 06/11/2026 16:20, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:

> There is nothing wrong with making money. 
> There is nothing wrong with being rich and wealthy.
> There is all sorts of wrong making money by denying others their chances to make money. 
> The corruption inherent in the us medical system, tech-bros, patent courts in texas and many more examples from outside US too, are wrong, not because they make money but because they hinder others from making money. 
> That is not capitalism, that is outright robbery.
> Do capitalism and I for one will be very happy. 
> Do robbery and in your case, support the robbers and receive negative feedback.
> This is supposed to be a forum for extropian ideas right?
> Where do you find the extropy in predatory economics?


Well put.

Spike, it seems you don't even understand the argument that Henrik, I and others are making. You keep ignoring it and veering back to your theme of companies needing to make good on their investments. Nobody is challenging that! We are talking instead about profiteering, creating monopolies, "outright robbery", as Henrik says above. Eliminating this does NOT prevent companies from making fair profits on their investments, enabling them to carry on doing research and development.

Again, look at the epipen example. You can't honestly say that it's reasonable or necessary.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 17:35:47 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 18:35:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <010701dd6e0f$8a5f0230$9f1d0690$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CAF0GBnj3_EH4xoU4AX8ZX4Dv60Fkea9YWWLQ3rH_VYsnK4n2tA@mail.gmail.com>

> Of course.  No one is restricted from investing in medical research.
> Medical researchers who find the answer first and best must be allowed to
> profit from that successful research to whatever the market will bear.  I
> don?t see any other way.  Do you?  Do share please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> You are dodging,  what's the extropian view of economic predation?
>
/Henrik
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 17:39:38 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:39:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <OetBB8ONl8pBlb8Z_jNIfEZrWw4qoEltN2CfPu4hmJFInLBM2SD-cvtSmT5YRIs6nXB1kkCt2bbqUondSqgm3HnSPsqGHZlf1CttJ5WZBkM=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.11.1793982049.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <012d01dd6e15$cc7214e0$65563ea0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben
Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 November, 2026 9:17 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: Ben Zaiboc <benzaiboc at proton.me>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On 06/11/2026 16:20, spike wrote:
> Profiteering: is going to work profiteering?  Is investing 
> profiteering?  Is doing anything profiteering?  How are we defining the
term?


The term has a well-established definition. I used the internet to look it
up for you:

>...Profiteering
noun
The act of making an unreasonable profit not justified by the corresponding
assumption of risk...


OK I see we have defined profiteering by introducing the term
"unreasonable."  Who gets to determine what is unreasonable?


> >...Research is risky. Most companies fail to find the profitable solution
first. Without profiteering, there is no profit, and there are no
shareholders. Shareholders go to other industries.


>...Reconsider your statement above, in light of the meaning of the word.

>...There are reasonable profits, and there is profiteering. Two different
things. Can you now agree to that?

Sure, if you can agree that the profit on successful medication must cover
the losses on unsuccessful ones, if we want to keep investors coming.

>...If so, try to explain the Epipen scenario that Henrik described as
anything other than profiteering. Try to defend a $600 price for a $1 dose
of a natural substance (no drug development involved) in a simple plastic
and metal device....

Ben, you are aware that one need not use epipens, ja?  I used five of them
recently, but switched out to standard syringes for self-medication because
I went on Medicare, which will not cover those.  Epipens are convenient, but
not necessary.  I don't see the logic in buying them at a huge premium.  Do
you?

Patients were self-injecting their meds before epipens existed.  Those
devices are convenient but not necessary.  If a company can make those, I
have no doubt they will charge what the market will bear.  Solution: don't
buy them.  Then the market will not bear the unreasonable profit, and we
have a definition of "unreasonable."

>...I don't know how much the pen costs to produce, but I suspect it will be
less than the cost of the adrenaline it contains.... Ben

What did adrenaline users do before epipens were invented?  Can they not do
that now?

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 17:45:37 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:45:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <4on10JbFvdCDr8295lcVaUIbMFACYlEjZhyqCcpdveLzAAhIr52b4xq_KgaklCzW7X1j9HOnKAGW-qs4YAp8zo5Icr8vFo9KiXxVM0zmsJo=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <012e01dd6e16$a22284d0$e6678e70$@rainier66.com>


>...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On 06/11/2026 16:20, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:

>>... There is nothing wrong with making money. 
> There is nothing wrong with being rich and wealthy.
> There is all sorts of wrong making money by denying others their chances
to make money...


Well put.

>...Spike, it seems you don't even understand the argument that Henrik, I
and others are making.... 
-- 
Ben


_______________________________________________


Ben, it seems you don't even understand the argument I am making.  I know
successful drug companies corner markets and make a ton of money.  I get
that.  I also get it that unless they do, investors will not put money into
medical research companies, because everyone else researching in that field
dominated by one guy lost.

Even the company which wins in a particular area doesn't win in all of them.
It uses its obscene profits on one medication to fund research in other
medications.

Market forces apply to medical research as well as every other field.

spike


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 17:45:44 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 12:45:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <00cd01dd6e0a$689cd5a0$39d680e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv3zvmwfF7cB5bNXqh95akg5mAy4dzP1=vz=d43byAnXxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 11:18?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> If you consider a drug too expensive, don?t buy it.*


*Great choice you have given us, don't buy the drug and die rich, or buy it
and live in poverty. Spike, why do you insist on never changing, on always
doing things the same way we have always been doing things even when it's
obviously stupid and is killing thousands of American citizens each year? *

*> A lot of research is done in the USA*


*And a lot of research is done elsewhere, research into Wegovy for example
as I pointed out in my previous post was done in Denmark. So what lame
excuse have you managed to dream of to explain the huge discrepancy in the
cost of Wegovy in the two countries when neither country had anything to do
with the research, development, or manufacture of Wegovy? *

*> Drugs are controlled tightly in the USA.*


*Yes, and a libertarian would say drugs are far FAR  too tightly controlled
in the USA. So Spike I ask you yet again, are you a libertarian? *

*John K Clark*








>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2026 at 5:43?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *> **Medicine does cost a lot more in the USA, *
>
>
>
> *Yes, a LOT more.*
>
>
>
> *> **for reasons we already established:*
>
>
>
> *No, you have never done that.  *
>
>
>
>
>
>  *> **the cost of the research and qualification must be paid back.  *
>
>
>
> *>?But you have never coherently explained why US citizens and US
> citizens ALONE must pay for the ENTIRE research and development costs of
> every drug in existence, even though they are only 4% of the world's
> population. And even if the US had nothing to do with the R&D or
> manufacturer of the drug! *
>



>
>
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 17:47:23 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:47:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnj3_EH4xoU4AX8ZX4Dv60Fkea9YWWLQ3rH_VYsnK4n2tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <013101dd6e16$e1ce9150$a56bb3f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

 

 

>>?Of course.  No one is restricted from investing in medical research.  Medical researchers who find the answer first and best must be allowed to profit from that successful research to whatever the market will bear.  I don?t see any other way.  Do you?  Do share please.

spike

You are dodging,  what's the extropian view of economic predation?

/Henrik

 

 

Henrik you are dodging.  If successful research is not absurdly rewarded, what keeps investors coming?  Nothing.  They go to other industries.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 17:51:39 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 09:51:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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Message-ID: <013801dd6e17$79e978b0$6dbc6a10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 11:18?AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

> If you consider a drug too expensive, don?t buy it.

 

>?Great choice you have given us, don't buy the drug and die rich, or buy it and live in poverty?. John K Clark

 

 

But if we defund medical research by restricting profit on the winners, investors go to other industries, resulting in far less medical research, and we get to die without the option to buy the drug.  John we already know you are not libertarian, you need not remind us.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 19:43:28 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 20:43:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <013101dd6e16$e1ce9150$a56bb3f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CAF0GBng14QPuYhyT-eS569FUSx8g-foRw1z6PMqpZWYt5AJ+Yw@mail.gmail.com>

The Extropian Principles 2.5 somewhat mumbles but mostly condemns any
attempt to make money by hindering other capitalist actors.
Such behavior is basically centrally planned, authoritarian systems that
extropians want to move beyond.
Legitimate profit arises through production, innovation, and voluntary
transactions in a free, decentralized spontaneous order ? never through
coercion or exclusion.
"The principle of spontaneous order is embodied in the free market system
-- a system that does not yet exist in a pure form. We are evolving away
from tribalism, feudalism, authoritarianism, and democracy towards a
polycentric system of distributed power shared among autonomous agents,
their plans coordinated by the economic network. The free market allows
complex institutions to develop, encourages innovation, rewards individual
initiative, cultivates personal responsibility, fosters diversity, and
decentralizes power. Market economies spur the technological and social
progress essential to the Extropian philosophy. We have no use for the
technocratic idea of central control by self-proclaimed experts. No group
of experts can understand and control the endless complexity of an economy
and society. Expert knowledge is best harnessed and transmitted through the
superbly efficient mediation of the free market's price signals -- signals
that embody more information than any person or organization could ever
gather.

Now, how are Mylans manipulation of government functions to exclude all
other market actors free market?
they are actively using government repression to make money. That is
communism no?

/henrik

Den fre 6 nov. 2026 kl 18:47 skrev <spike at rainier66.com>:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>
>
>
>
>
> >>?Of course.  No one is restricted from investing in medical research.
> Medical researchers who find the answer first and best must be allowed to
> profit from that successful research to whatever the market will bear.  I
> don?t see any other way.  Do you?  Do share please.
>
> spike
>
> You are dodging,  what's the extropian view of economic predation?
>
> /Henrik
>
>
>
>
>
> Henrik you are dodging.  If successful research is not absurdly rewarded,
> what keeps investors coming?  Nothing.  They go to other industries.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 19:58:31 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 11:58:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBng14QPuYhyT-eS569FUSx8g-foRw1z6PMqpZWYt5AJ+Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <002b01dd6e29$33525090$99f6f1b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 



 

>?Now, how are Mylans manipulation of government functions to exclude all other market actors free market?

they are actively using government repression to make money. That is communism no?

 

/Henrik

 

 

No.  In communism, the commies kill the owners and take the product, which they distribute until it is gone, after which it no longer exists.

 

There is no way around it: medical research costs a lotta money and is highly risky, pseudo-capitalism in its current form as practiced the USA is good at making it happen, which is why so much of it happens in the USA.  

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:03:57 2026
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 12:03:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBng14QPuYhyT-eS569FUSx8g-foRw1z6PMqpZWYt5AJ+Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAF0GBnguF559DoVCzjQ0oXEwrTaFK3-g-MH0OHR83Y_fxjqYSQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL+RtPf_KJjD4LK5W3Grwv9s0XbYW-8Afk1BiMRJ2U1zkGJucw@mail.gmail.com>

Henrik,
Where can I find the Extropian Principles?
Any link?
Giovanni

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 11:45?AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The Extropian Principles 2.5 somewhat mumbles but mostly condemns any
> attempt to make money by hindering other capitalist actors.
> Such behavior is basically centrally planned, authoritarian systems that
> extropians want to move beyond.
> Legitimate profit arises through production, innovation, and voluntary
> transactions in a free, decentralized spontaneous order ? never through
> coercion or exclusion.
> "The principle of spontaneous order is embodied in the free market system
> -- a system that does not yet exist in a pure form. We are evolving away
> from tribalism, feudalism, authoritarianism, and democracy towards a
> polycentric system of distributed power shared among autonomous agents,
> their plans coordinated by the economic network. The free market allows
> complex institutions to develop, encourages innovation, rewards individual
> initiative, cultivates personal responsibility, fosters diversity, and
> decentralizes power. Market economies spur the technological and social
> progress essential to the Extropian philosophy. We have no use for the
> technocratic idea of central control by self-proclaimed experts. No group
> of experts can understand and control the endless complexity of an economy
> and society. Expert knowledge is best harnessed and transmitted through the
> superbly efficient mediation of the free market's price signals -- signals
> that embody more information than any person or organization could ever
> gather.
>
> Now, how are Mylans manipulation of government functions to exclude all
> other market actors free market?
> they are actively using government repression to make money. That is
> communism no?
>
> /henrik
>
> Den fre 6 nov. 2026 kl 18:47 skrev <spike at rainier66.com>:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>?Of course.  No one is restricted from investing in medical research.
>> Medical researchers who find the answer first and best must be allowed to
>> profit from that successful research to whatever the market will bear.  I
>> don?t see any other way.  Do you?  Do share please.
>>
>> spike
>>
>> You are dodging,  what's the extropian view of economic predation?
>>
>> /Henrik
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Henrik you are dodging.  If successful research is not absurdly rewarded,
>> what keeps investors coming?  Nothing.  They go to other industries.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:19:59 2026
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 12:19:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBng14QPuYhyT-eS569FUSx8g-foRw1z6PMqpZWYt5AJ+Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2TuAeKhy7Hm2oE5SeyUue37zk7cCONdkp3Dc44photOwfe1uByqKYAQkYFVpYXFIxQpLWae0_90FFsyG03M6B-1loZC_hnwQuLqHjHgON_8=@proton.me>
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 <CAF0GBng14QPuYhyT-eS569FUSx8g-foRw1z6PMqpZWYt5AJ+Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcJtgncaHwCK1Ggqh8=UW7vHxYLHx9j6zjGipFGoNR8LA@mail.gmail.com>

?Legitimate profit arises through production, innovation, and voluntary
transactions in a free, decentralized spontaneous order.?

I find this statement particularly interesting because, in my book *The
Physics of Bitcoin* (available on Amazon) and in my published research in
peer-reviewed physics journals
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S3050517826000675,

I demonstrate that Bitcoin behaves as a complex, decentralized system
exhibiting precisely this kind of *spontaneous order*.

In particular, Bitcoin's price, network adoption (measured through
addresses), and hash rate all exhibit power-law scaling
relationships?hallmarks of nonlinear dynamics, self-organization, and
potentially self-organized criticality in complex systems.

This leads to a fundamental point I emphasize in my work: *Bitcoin's
economic order emerges spontaneously, from the bottom up, through the
collective interactions of millions of independent participants, rather
than being imposed by any central authority.*

I argue that this makes Bitcoin's price discovery mechanism one of the
fairest and most transparent ways to establish the market value of a
financial asset: a valuation emerging organically from decentralized
interactions, rather than being dictated from the top down.

By the way, in my book, I dedicate a section to how Transhumanism played a
fundamental role in my journey toward understanding and embracing Bitcoin.
I also specifically acknowledge this newsletter as one of the key
influences that first introduced me to Bitcoin as an idea and ultimately
contributed to my orange-pilling process.

Check out also scientificbitcoininstitute.org that is the a non profit
organization that I created last year to study Bitcoin as a complex system.
We just did our first scientific Bitcoin conference at the local Italian
University in Lugano, Switzerland.

Giovanni






On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 11:45?AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The Extropian Principles 2.5 somewhat mumbles but mostly condemns any
> attempt to make money by hindering other capitalist actors.
> Such behavior is basically centrally planned, authoritarian systems that
> extropians want to move beyond.
> Legitimate profit arises through production, innovation, and voluntary
> transactions in a free, decentralized spontaneous order ? never through
> coercion or exclusion.
> "The principle of spontaneous order is embodied in the free market system
> -- a system that does not yet exist in a pure form. We are evolving away
> from tribalism, feudalism, authoritarianism, and democracy towards a
> polycentric system of distributed power shared among autonomous agents,
> their plans coordinated by the economic network. The free market allows
> complex institutions to develop, encourages innovation, rewards individual
> initiative, cultivates personal responsibility, fosters diversity, and
> decentralizes power. Market economies spur the technological and social
> progress essential to the Extropian philosophy. We have no use for the
> technocratic idea of central control by self-proclaimed experts. No group
> of experts can understand and control the endless complexity of an economy
> and society. Expert knowledge is best harnessed and transmitted through the
> superbly efficient mediation of the free market's price signals -- signals
> that embody more information than any person or organization could ever
> gather.
>
> Now, how are Mylans manipulation of government functions to exclude all
> other market actors free market?
> they are actively using government repression to make money. That is
> communism no?
>
> /henrik
>
> Den fre 6 nov. 2026 kl 18:47 skrev <spike at rainier66.com>:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>?Of course.  No one is restricted from investing in medical research.
>> Medical researchers who find the answer first and best must be allowed to
>> profit from that successful research to whatever the market will bear.  I
>> don?t see any other way.  Do you?  Do share please.
>>
>> spike
>>
>> You are dodging,  what's the extropian view of economic predation?
>>
>> /Henrik
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Henrik you are dodging.  If successful research is not absurdly rewarded,
>> what keeps investors coming?  Nothing.  They go to other industries.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ExiMod at protonmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:25:48 2026
From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2026 20:25:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPf_KJjD4LK5W3Grwv9s0XbYW-8Afk1BiMRJ2U1zkGJucw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1793918806.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <mJPJ4p-nz6XHpdQ81RnJmFCEVAC0dC2UPultMp8QQG8U6TAFs9aSPx0oEGkjB2mqAXQWjyXUssviIIZJJd2pJ-ZcG1Mv7KPEbc_rTIYZOhs=@protonmail.com>

On Friday, November 6th, 2026 at 8:06 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Henrik,
> Where can I find the Extropian Principles?
> Any link?
> Giovanni
> ---------------------------------



Hi Giovanni
Try this link.?https://www.mrob.com/pub/religion/extro_prin.htm

THE
EXTROPIAN PRINCIPLES
Version 3.0
A Transhumanist Declaration
(c)1998 Max More

Best wishes, ExiMod




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:36:05 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 15:36:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <013801dd6e17$79e978b0$6dbc6a10$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1BaBK0XK-N==JGEt3uY1PC7k=mu8LeD8ChP94QVhE7tg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 12:51?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> *>>> **If you consider a drug too expensive, don?t buy it.*
>
>
>
>> *>>?Great choice you have given us, don't buy the drug and die rich, or
>> buy it and live in poverty?. John K Clark*
>
>
>
> *> But if we defund medical research* [...]
>

*OH FOR DARWIN'S SAKE! You keep repeating that silly straw man argument
like a parrot without even attempting to answer my fundamental questions,
like why the hell are American consumers and American consumers ALONE
responsible for repaying the entire research and development budget for
every drug in existence regardless of what country the research or the
development or the manufacturing occurred in?*

*But perhaps it's just me, does anybody around here think that Spike's
argument is logical, or even coherent?  *

*  > **John we already know you are not libertarian,*
>

*If you are a libertarian then I am not one. If you are not a libertarian
then I am one.  *
* John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 20:46:46 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 12:46:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1BaBK0XK-N==JGEt3uY1PC7k=mu8LeD8ChP94QVhE7tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <006401dd6e2f$f078f4c0$d16ade40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 12:51?PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>>> If you consider a drug too expensive, don?t buy it.

 

>>?Great choice you have given us, don't buy the drug and die rich, or buy it and live in poverty?. John K Clark

 

> But if we defund medical research [...]

 

>?OH FOR DARWIN'S SAKE!  Why the hell are American consumers and American consumers ALONE responsible for repaying the entire research and development budget for every drug in existence?

 

We aren?t.  We have the option to not buy the drugs.  Our system is set up to compel medical research investment to come here, for it generates a lot of the kinds of jobs we have in the USA, which generates tax revenue for those who create the system.  Notice I am not arguing that it is entirely fair or even optimal for humankind.

 

>...But perhaps it's just me, does anybody around here think that Spike's argument is logical, or even coherent?

 

I do.  I also recognize that the way the USA does medical legal infrastructure is far from libertarian and far from optimal.  Ours is the second worst system for supporting medical research, better only than everything else.  This explains why so much of it is done here.

 

None of my personal investment is in medical research, for the reasons we have discussed here.  It is too risky, and if one hits the medication lottery, some feel the company should not try to maximize its profit.

 

  > John we already know you are not libertarian,

 

>?If you are a libertarian then I am not one. If you are not a libertarian then I am one.  

 John K Clark

 

Ja, I do occasionally get the vague sense that you and I do not agree on everything politically.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 21:18:10 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 16:18:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv279y6wD3q86Fm-aLUnqMYpTz+vxQAXPeUNaork0A+KqA@mail.gmail.com>

 <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*>>> **But if we defund medical research* [...]
>
> *>>OH FOR DARWIN'S SAKE! You keep repeating that silly straw man argument
>> like a parrot without even attempting to answer my fundamental questions,
>> like why the hell are American consumers and American consumers ALONE
>> responsible for repaying the entire research and development budget for
>> every drug in existence regardless of what country the research or the
>> development or the manufacturing occurred in?*
>
>
> * > We aren?t.  We have the option to not buy the drugs. *


*Just like I said before, yes we always have the option of dying. And Just
like I said before, you're behaving like a parrot; so I will do the same
and repeat the question I asked in my previous post: does anybody around
here, other than Spike himself, think that his answer to my question is
convincing, logical, or even coherent?*

*> Our system is set up to compel medical research investment to come here
> [...]*
>

*If you were right (and of course you are NOT) then compelling medical
research to come to the US would be an extremely stupid thing to
do because the end result of it would be American consumers would be
poorer, would die younger and do so in greater pain. Fuck that, do medical
research someplace else!  *

* > Ours is the second worst system for supporting medical research, better
> only than everything else.  *


*Obviously that is dead wrong. Denmark has a VASTLY superior system, as
does every technological nation on the planet. *

*John K Clark*
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 22:35:22 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 23:35:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <012e01dd6e16$a22284d0$e6678e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <4on10JbFvdCDr8295lcVaUIbMFACYlEjZhyqCcpdveLzAAhIr52b4xq_KgaklCzW7X1j9HOnKAGW-qs4YAp8zo5Icr8vFo9KiXxVM0zmsJo=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <CAF0GBnh94X+y3xL419UQht2jAeBXVz7YnsQrgHXH0ce1UTx8MQ@mail.gmail.com>

thanks Exi-mod for the link to principles v3. I was stuck on v2.5 for some
reason. now updated.
There is nothing in the principles that directly addresses the ethics of
economics but I think there is some general direction.

in point 6 self direction, "Extropians see benevolence as a virtue that
guides our interactions with the self-directed lives of others. Benevolence
naturally goes along with an appreciation of the value in other selves and
with confidence in our own self. We see benevolence not as an obligation to
sacrifice our interests, but as a disposition to be helpful to others. We
approach others as potential sources of value, friendship, cooperation, and
pleasure. We see a benevolent disposition not only as an emotionally more
stable and enjoyable state than cynicism, hostility, and meanness, but also
as more likely to induce reciprocal positive treatment. Benevolence implies
a presumption of common moral decencies including politeness, patience, and
honesty. While we do not seek to get along with everyone at any cost, we do
seek to maximize the benefits of our interactions with others."

in v2.6 INTELLIGENT TECHNOLOGY
Profound technological innovation excites rather than frightens us. We
welcome change, expanding our horizons, exploring new territory boldly and
inventively. We favor careful and cautious development of powerful
technologies, but will neither stifle evolutionary advancement nor cringe
before the unfamiliar. Regarding timidity and stagnation as unworthy of us,
we choose to stride valiantly into the future. Extropians therefore favor
surging ahead delighting in future shock rather than ignobly stagnating or
reverting to primitivism. Intelligent use of biotechnology, nanotechnology,
space and other technologies, in conjunction with a free market system, can
remove resource constraints and discharge environmental pressures.

there is nothing about doing the economic version of "your body, my choice"
on everyone in the name of the holy profit.

Mylan and epipen are an example of malignant interaction. there is no
investment or research apart from research in how to use the government as
an enforcer to keep all others out from a market where mylan has done no
research whatsoever,  They bought the product epipen 2007 from Merk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylan  and continue to use technicalities to
hinder alternatives.
In Sweden there are 5 different companies with 2-4 versions of adrenaline
autoinjectors per company. Price point if you buy them straight off the
counter without any prescription and thus pay full price can be found here
: https://www.apotekpriser.se/produkter/virkestoff/adrenalin/   it is 40-50
dollars per injektor. epipen is one of those alternatives.
US prices are somewhat higher, apparently there have come some alternatives
but they are still significantly more expensive,
https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-an-epipen-cost  with the
lowest price here, 174.04 dollar.
No research apart from how to bribe a patent court in Texas are
performed in regards to adrenaline autoinjection nowadays.
If anything adrenaline is probably over estimated as treatment but no
useful research is done by anyone so it will stay as first alternative for
a long time since dragging any kind of useful study through all the
bureaucracy of FDA and its ilk in other countries are way worse than
pulling teeth without local anesthetics. This research is most
certainly not done by mylan / viatris.
Anyway, I digress, back to the real subject.

Is price gouging of weak customers who can't act as an equal in the market
a good extropian practice?

/henrik


Den fre 6 nov. 2026 kl 18:47 skrev spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:

>
> >...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>
> On 06/11/2026 16:20, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:
>
> >>... There is nothing wrong with making money.
> > There is nothing wrong with being rich and wealthy.
> > There is all sorts of wrong making money by denying others their chances
> to make money...
>
>
> Well put.
>
> >...Spike, it seems you don't even understand the argument that Henrik, I
> and others are making....
> --
> Ben
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Ben, it seems you don't even understand the argument I am making.  I know
> successful drug companies corner markets and make a ton of money.  I get
> that.  I also get it that unless they do, investors will not put money into
> medical research companies, because everyone else researching in that field
> dominated by one guy lost.
>
> Even the company which wins in a particular area doesn't win in all of
> them.
> It uses its obscene profits on one medication to fund research in other
> medications.
>
> Market forces apply to medical research as well as every other field.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov  6 22:38:45 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2026 14:38:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
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Message-ID: <002d01dd6e3f$9563bec0$c02b3c40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
?

 

> Our system is set up to compel medical research investment to come here [...]

 

>?If you were right (and of course you are NOT) then compelling medical research to come to the US would be an extremely stupid thing to do because the end result of it would be American consumers would be poorer, would die younger and do so in greater pain. Fuck that, do medical research someplace else!....

 

Or they would pay, live longer and healthier in less pain.  Other countries get the same benefits cheaper, so they win too.

 

 

 > Ours is the second worst system for supporting medical research, better only than everything else.  

 

>?Obviously that is dead wrong. Denmark has a VASTLY superior system, as does every technological nation on the planet. 

 

John K Clark

 

USA is in dead last at medical research, right John?  I am surprised you haven?t moved to Denmark.  Good chance they would take you, assuming you have money.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Sat Nov  7 08:34:24 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2026 08:34:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1793999939.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.18.1793999939.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <9m0kwERcFROua8WOEH1o4w3SMFewyF8jinGGRwzTbijbRlOtvApnomL9oKG5DeOylhBVcUIzI83J1QR9CR7S5vO83JA7D8VnIyu_B0CHNsI=@proton.me>

On 06/11/2026 21:18, John K Clark wrote:
>
>  <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>             >>> But if we defund medical research [...]
>
>         >>OH FOR DARWIN'S SAKE! You keep repeating that silly straw man argument like a parrot without even attempting to answer my fundamental questions, like why the hell are American consumers and American consumers ALONE responsible for repaying the entire research and development budget for every drug in existence regardless of what country the research or the development or the manufacturing occurred in?
>
>
>      > We aren?t.  We have the option to not buy the drugs. 
>
>
> Just like I said before, yes we always have the option of dying.


It's not just dying, though. Denying healthcare to so many people (because of the artificially high prices) has detrimental effects that go right through society. It impacts education, economics, and psychology too. It contributes to crime, and encourages (by example) corruption in other areas, as well as being morally repugnant of course.


>  And Just like I said before, you're behaving like a parrot; so I will do the same and repeat the question I asked in my previous post: does anybody around here, other than Spike himself, think that his answer to my question is convincing, logical, or even coherent?


Of course not. This is reminding me of the whole 'fundamental colour properties' argument (although admittedly, not as silly): A consistent refusal to engage with, or even acknowledge, the core issues, misrepresentation of other people's views and a stubborn repetition of something demonstrably not true.


>     > Our system is set up to compel medical research investment to come here [...]
>
>
> If you were right (and of course you are NOT) then compelling medical research to come to the US would be an extremely stupid thing to do because the end result of it would be American consumers would be poorer, would die younger and do so in greater pain. Fuck that, do medical research someplace else!  
>
>      > Ours is the second worst system for supporting medical research, better only than everything else.  
>
>
> Obviously that is dead wrong. Denmark has a VASTLY superior system, as does every technological nation on the planet. 

I suspect we're wasting our time, John. Apparently adherence to an ideological principle ('Capitalism' (of any type, including the worst) is gooood!) is more important than human misery, poverty and even death.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 10:49:55 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 05:49:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2GMtQvs8RG7DW3Tf0uhemVY3WhHs1Po5qCkXnTr79OXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 5:38?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrot

 *>>> **Ours is the second worst system for supporting medical research,
> better only than everything else.  *
>
>
>
> *>>?Obviously that is dead wrong**.** Denmark has a VASTLY superior
> system, as does every technological nation on the planet.  **John K Clark*
>
>
>
> *> USA is in dead last at medical research, right John? *
>

*You are not playing fair because that is not what I said.  You
claimed that for mysterious reasons you were never able to articulate,
whatever country that does the most medical research the consumers of that
country, and them alone, must pay for the entire research and development
and manufacturing costs of every drug in existence, even for drugs that
were researched, developed and manufactured entirely in Denmark.  **So I
said:   *


*"If you were right (and of course you are NOT) then compelling medical
research to come to the US would be an extremely stupid thing to
do because the end result of it would be American consumers would be
poorer, would die younger and do so in greater pain. Fuck that, do medical
research someplace else!"*

*And I stand by what I said 100%. *

*John K Clark  *
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 13:20:16 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 08:20:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?
In-Reply-To: <00e801dd6e0d$98873190$c99594b0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1wyziw8mrcC5+mKovBvRhA8yYpi_LYXGvxTCDG6=D6wQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 11:40?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> Alaska is better than Canada. *


*I asked MR.**GPT about that and he seemed to feel that although Alaska has
possibilities Canada would be better. However near the end of his long
response he said something that I thought was very interesting, and I
wanted to know more about it:*

*ME: ** I think what you said at the end to be particularly interesting,
"building a huge AI campus in northern Alaska, close to natural-gas
resources, with its own power station, cooling system, and fiber-optic
connections. It would essentially be an entirely new industrial city
devoted to computation. I wouldn't dismiss that possibility at all ". Could
you expand on that?*

*GPT: " *I think this is worth exploring seriously, because it suggests a
rather different way of thinking about the future geography of AI. Instead
of finding an existing city with enough electricity to support a gigantic
data center, imagine building an entirely new industrial complex in
northern Alaska, specifically designed around one purpose: supplying
enormous quantities of computing power. It would have its own power
generation, cooling infrastructure, water supply, fiber-optic connections
and perhaps even its own housing and transportation facilities. In effect,
it would be an AI industrial city, built where energy is available rather
than where people already live. Let me walk through how such a project
might work.

*1. Choosing the location: Alaska's North Slope*

The first place I would investigate is the region around Prudhoe Bay and
Deadhorse. Why? Because this region already has something extremely
valuable: a major industrial energy infrastructure. Prudhoe Bay is one of
North America's largest oil and natural-gas fields. It has been producing
hydrocarbons for decades, and the region has roads, airfields, industrial
facilities and pipelines.

There are three particularly important advantages:

   -

   Natural gas is available in enormous quantities, although much of the
   gas is currently reinjected into the oil reservoirs rather than exported.
   -

   The region is extremely cold for much of the year.
   -

   There is relatively little competing demand for land and industrial
   infrastructure compared with major metropolitan areas.

The biggest attraction is that a data center could be located near its fuel
supply rather than having to transport electricity over hundreds of miles.
*2. There is now an actual proposal remarkably close to this idea*

Here's something I discovered while investigating: this is no longer merely
a hypothetical scenario.

An Alaska company called *STAK Energy* has proposed a project called *Project
Aaka*, near Deadhorse on the North Slope. Its proposed design is remarkably
similar to the AI industrial city we have been discussing.

The important details:

Feature

Proposed development

Location

About 26 miles south of Deadhorse

Land

715 acres

Power generation

1?3 GW

Fuel

North Slope natural gas

Computing

Modular high-performance computing buildings

Cooling

Primarily dry-air cooling

Fiber

New connections to existing Arctic fiber infrastructure

Construction workforce

   Up to 1,500 workers

Permanent workforce

 Approximately 60 people

The company proposes building its own natural-gas power station and
consuming the electricity on-site, without connecting to Alaska's public
electricity grid.

And there has just been a significant development.

*On November 5, 2026, STAK announced a 15-year natural-gas supply agreement
with ExxonMobil Alaska Production.* The company says the agreement provides
enough gas to support nearly 3 GW of electricity generation. That is a
substantial step forward, although it doesn't mean the project has received
all its permits or secured financing.

*3. How would the power station work?*

North Slope natural gas fields would lead to gas delivered through short
dedicated pipelines. The gas turbine power station would consist of
multiple independent generating units and electrical substations and
distribution would provide redundant power feeds to computing buildings.

I would actually favor a collection of smaller generating units rather than
one enormous power station.For example, 30 generating units rated at 100 MW
each would provide 3 GW of installed capacity.That has several advantages:

   -

   A turbine can be taken offline for maintenance without shutting down the
   entire campus.
   -

   Power generation can be expanded in stages.
   -

   Individual failures are less disruptive.
   -

   Generation can be matched more closely to the computing load.

There is one further possibility: using combined-cycle generation. That
captures some of the heat in the turbine exhaust to produce additional
electricity through a steam turbine. It improves fuel efficiency, although
it adds complexity and water-management requirements.

*4. Cooling could be one of the biggest advantages*

This is where northern Alaska becomes particularly interesting.Modern AI
computers generate enormous amounts of heat. Almost all the electricity
consumed by the computing equipment eventually becomes heat that must be
removed. A 3 GW computing installation would therefore have to continuously
dispose of approximately 3 GW of heat, assuming that figure refers to the
computing load itself.In northern Alaska, the outside temperature is below
freezing for much of the year.

I would design the facility around three cooling stages:

   1.

   Liquid cooling at the processors: Cold liquid circulates through cooling
   plates attached directly to GPUs and other high-power chips.
   2.

   Heat exchangers: The warmed liquid transfers its heat to a separate
   cooling circuit.
   3.

   Outside-air cooling: Large industrial heat exchangers transfer the heat
   into the Arctic atmosphere.

This arrangement could dramatically reduce the need for evaporative cooling
and freshwater consumption.

There is a caveat: extremely cold temperatures require sophisticated
controls to prevent freezing, condensation and equipment damage. Summer
temperatures also mean that cooling cannot be designed around winter
conditions alone.
The permafrost problem

This is perhaps the most unusual engineering challenge.The ground in much
of the region is permanently frozen. Building an enormous facility on it is
not like building on ordinary soil.The proposed STAK site would require
approximately 7.1 million cubic yards of gravel fill to create a stable
construction platform.

Engineers would need to:

   -

   Insulate the buildings and foundations.
   -

   Prevent waste heat from warming the underlying ground.
   -

   Use foundations designed for frozen soil.
   -

   Monitor ground temperatures and settlement continuously.

If the permafrost thaws unevenly, buildings and pipelines can shift or
become unstable. This is not a theoretical concern: it is a major
engineering issue for existing Arctic oil infrastructure.

*5. Communications: surprisingly, Alaska already has a head start*

You might think that locating an AI campus near the Arctic Ocean would
create a serious communications problem. It certainly creates challenges,
but there is already an important piece of infrastructure.The company
Quintillion operates a subsea and terrestrial fiber-optic system connecting
Prudhoe Bay and Deadhorse with Fairbanks. Its published network
specifications describe:

   -

   Approximately 30 terabits per second of capacity.
   -

   Potential expansion to 90 terabits per second.
   -

   Connections onward to networks reaching Anchorage, Seattle and Portland.

That is a useful starting point. However, a 3 GW AI campus would need
considerably more than a single fiber connection. I would want multiple
independent fiber routes, separate cable landing points, redundant
connections to major internet exchanges and substantial additional capacity.

There are two different networking requirements:

   -

   Inside the campus: Extremely high-speed connections between thousands of
   GPUs. This would be a dedicated, enormous optical networking system.
   -

   Outside the campus: Connections to customers, other data centers, cloud
   networks and the rest of the internet.

The first is built as part of the campus. The second requires a major
expansion of Alaska's external fiber infrastructure.
6. How big would this project actually be?

Let's consider the upper-end proposal of 3 GW.

3,000 MW Installed generating capacity. 26.3 TWh annual electricity if
operated continuously at 3 GW. 715 acres proposed land parcel. 1,500
potential construction workers. 60 estimated permanent employees.

One important distinction: 3 GW of power-station capacity does not
necessarily mean 3 GW of computing capacity. Some electricity is consumed
by cooling, power conversion and other infrastructure, and generators need
reserve capacity. Also, the developer's gas-supply announcement doesn't
disclose the actual gas price or all the commercial terms.The Northern
Alaska Environmental Center, citing STAK's project analysis, reports
projected gas consumption of approximately 350?500 million cubic feet per
day under full simple-cycle operation. That illustrates just how
substantial the fuel requirement would be.


*      7. What could go wrong? *


I see five major risks.

Risk                    Why it matters

Gas pipeline       New pipelines must be constructed and separately
authorized.

Environmental impact    Gas combustion produces substantial CO? emissions
and other pollutants.

Permafrost     The huge gravel platform and buildings must remain stable
over decades.

Fiber connectivity      Additional redundant communications infrastructure
is necessary.

Financing and customers      A project this large needs enormous investment
and long-term computing customers.

The environmental issue deserves particular attention.

One attraction of the project is that it would monetize natural gas that
otherwise has limited commercial outlets on the North Slope. But burning
that gas to produce electricity would create substantial greenhouse-gas
emissions. The project would not have the environmental advantages of
Icelandic hydroelectric-powered computing.

There is also a significant local political dimension. The proposed 50-year
land lease attracted more than 500 public comments, and the comment period
was extended. The Northern Alaska Environmental Center reports that fewer
than a dozen comments supported the project. That is an advocacy
organization's account, rather than an official tally of public opinion.

*8. How close is this to actually happening?*

Here is the distinction I think is essential.

Milestone

Status as of November 7, 2026

Proposed 715-acre land lease

          Preliminary state approval only

Natural-gas supply

15-year ExxonMobil agreement announced November 5

Gas pipeline

Separate approval and construction required

Power plant

Proposed, not operational

Computing customers

None publicly identified

Full project financing

Not publicly established

Construction      Not yet started



*My assessment: this could be an important new model for AI infrastructure*

I find the underlying concept quite compelling.

Instead of competing with existing cities for electricity, land and water,
a developer could create an entirely new industrial energy complex in a
remote location.

There are some intriguing parallels with the oil industry itself: pipelines
bring fuel to an isolated industrial site, large power installations
convert it into usable energy, and specialized infrastructure supports a
relatively small permanent workforce.

I would actually consider three variations of this idea:

   1.

   North Slope Alaska: Natural-gas-powered AI campuses, as proposed by STAK.
   2.

   Northern Quebec: Hydroelectric-powered campuses built near new
   generating stations.
   3.

   Northern Manitoba: Large computing facilities supported by new
   hydroelectric generation and transmission.

The first would prioritize access to fuel; the other two would prioritize
low-carbon electricity. One thing I would particularly like to see is
whether AI companies become willing to locate their most
electricity-intensive training operations thousands of miles from major
population centers. For training a frontier AI model, the physical location
of the computers may matter much less than the price and reliability of
electricity, the availability of chips, and the quality of the network.

If that proves true, northern Alaska could become a much more interesting
location for the AI industry than most people currently imagine."

*  John K Clark*
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 13:45:11 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 08:45:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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References: <mailman.18.1793999939.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <9m0kwERcFROua8WOEH1o4w3SMFewyF8jinGGRwzTbijbRlOtvApnomL9oKG5DeOylhBVcUIzI83J1QR9CR7S5vO83JA7D8VnIyu_B0CHNsI=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQGtvbrX8Z_f7bZfS32yBQYjABTDoQ2-jBjHRJoLmkMcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 3:36?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On 06/11/2026 21:18, John K Clark wrote:
> >  And Just like I said before, you're behaving like a parrot; so I will do the same and repeat the question I asked in my previous post: does anybody around here, other than Spike himself, think that his answer to my question is convincing, logical, or even coherent?
>
> Of course not. This is reminding me of the whole 'fundamental colour properties' argument (although admittedly, not as silly): A consistent refusal to engage with, or even acknowledge, the core issues, misrepresentation of other people's views and a stubborn repetition of something demonstrably not true.

Alas, you appear to be correct.


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 15:29:23 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 07:29:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <9m0kwERcFROua8WOEH1o4w3SMFewyF8jinGGRwzTbijbRlOtvApnomL9oKG5DeOylhBVcUIzI83J1QR9CR7S5vO83JA7D8VnIyu_B0CHNsI=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.18.1793999939.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <9m0kwERcFROua8WOEH1o4w3SMFewyF8jinGGRwzTbijbRlOtvApnomL9oKG5DeOylhBVcUIzI83J1QR9CR7S5vO83JA7D8VnIyu_B0CHNsI=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <006901dd6ecc$c4b82890$4e2879b0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
...

>> ...Our system is set up to compel medical research investment to come here [...] John

> ...If you were right (and of course you are NOT) then compelling medical research to come to the US would be an extremely stupid thing to do because the end result of it would be American consumers would be poorer, would die younger and do so in greater pain. Fuck that, do medical research someplace else! 


So why doesn't most medical research somewhere else?  Answer: because in the USA, the medical system is a profit center.  Profits attract capital and talent.  Capital and talent attracts research.  Research results in profit.  I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

Side benefit: the poor in the USA have access to health care.  If they are impoverished, they can go to the ER and get treated.  They do.

spike


 




From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 15:38:30 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 07:38:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
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References: <mailman.6.1793722988.2220.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <007a01dd6ece$0a66f1e0$1f34d5a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is ?cost of living? such a big problem?

 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 5:38?PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrot

 

 >>> Ours is the second worst system for supporting medical research, better only than everything else.  

 

>>?Obviously that is dead wrong. Denmark has a VASTLY superior system, as does every technological nation on the planet.  John K Clark

> USA is in dead last at medical research, right John? 

 

>?You are not playing fair because that is not what I said.  You claimed that for mysterious reasons you were never able to articulate, whatever country that does the most medical research the consumers of that country, and them alone, must pay for the entire research and development and manufacturing costs of every drug in existence?. John K Clark  

 

 

So really what we are talking about his how to make other countries pay their share of the cost of research, not that medical research as a profit-driven enterprise is a bad idea.  Is that it?  OK, that?s a good question.  

 

Since the cost of medication is mostly the cost of the intellectual property content, there is no good way I can see to restrict import/export on it.  My best guess is to import all those medications from every technological nation you are claiming is vastly superior, then just use their medications for those who have no health insurance.

 

spike    

 

 

 

 

 

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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Sat Nov  7 16:13:17 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2026 16:13:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
 =?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.20.1794065378.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.20.1794065378.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <oNyjSn3L38u2_TSbycYyM3nlgZ_LzZYlG6cPC_uqZE1_Dd1vItyhWc94wx7YBiwMES81ps606Bo1_GgHogSER_QxfMHQp8DrIQieBXDR59g=@proton.me>

On 07/11/2026 15:29, spike wrote:
> the poor in the USA have access to health care.  If they are impoverished, they can go to the ER and get treated.  They do.


One important fact that you omitted (which seems strange as it's such an important one): They still have to pay!

Someone without the means to pay for an urgent medical procedure can indeed go to certain hospitals and get the treatment they need. But afterwards, /they are in debt to the hospital/. You didn't mention this the first time you talked about it, a while ago, which led me to think that this emergency treatment was free. This time, I checked.
There is no free medical treatment in the US, none at all. Everyone has to pay, regardless of their ability to.

It's not hard to understand that there will be people who will choose to die rather than having themselves and their families saddled with debt that pushes them even deeper into poverty and deprives their children of education (which, of course also has to be paid for, because this is the US).

Both of the times I had a life-threatening condition, I got free treatment on the NHS. The only indirect cost to me was paying National Insurance on my income, for the entire time I was in paid employment, the same as everyone else in the UK. Equivalent arrangements work very well in many other developed countries.
You'll be surprised to learn that medical research is also done in these countries. Astonishing, isn't it?

-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 16:22:06 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 08:22:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1wyziw8mrcC5+mKovBvRhA8yYpi_LYXGvxTCDG6=D6wQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3aBHuiOYV3tjuVFmUbr4AaajJ7xcui5LVeWZxQpY0Fjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv31vyOQFN68dVV2SAwBPbS2OFZZyd46+KdfCMtV=HF5AA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00ba01dd6ed4$21bc8cf0$6535a6d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Where should we build new multi-gigawatt AI Data centers?

 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2026 at 11:40?AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>>? Alaska is better than Canada. 

 

>?I asked MR.GPT about that and he seemed to feel that although Alaska has possibilities Canada would be better?.

 

ChatGPT didn?t deal with the more favorable tax structure for investors in the US vs Canada.  It started to go down that road with this comment:

 

 

>?Financing and customers      A project this large needs enormous investment and long-term computing customers.

 

YES!  Yes it does.  Given sufficient investment capital, all these other problems such as one we haven?t discussed here, is the gravel bed.  That is going to cost money.  Money is what investors supply.  However? GPT immediately wandered off into this:

>?The environmental issue deserves particular attention.

No Mr. Chat, the funding issue deserves particular attention.  We run the place on natural gas, which emits no pollutants, zero.  If we decide to run it on coal, we use all the modern techniques for filtering particulates and catalyzing the nitric oxides, neutralizing the acids, a scaled up version of what your gasoline powered car does, then the exhaust is carbon dioxide and water, almost no pollutants at all.  

 

The greens want to pretend that CO2 is a pollutant, but it isn?t anymore.  In February 2026, the EPA repealed its notion that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.  So now, natural gas plants are the most environmentally friendly power source, followed by abundant coal (assuming they have modern exhaust scrubbers) followed by nuclear power.  

 

Alaska is a great choice for the reasons Chat suggested, plus being a US state, the tax structure is better than Canada.  The Alberta separatist movement might change things however.  They don?t necessarily want to be part of the USA (well, imagine that) but if they become a separate nation, that would be a great place to park data centers.  They have coal, natural gas, water, wide open territory great for wind power even if not solar power (too far north) they can make their own environmental rules, It has many of the advantages of Alaska?s north slope with fewer disadvantages as a separate country.  They could make Alberta great again.  

 

?

>?I would design the facility around three cooling stages:

1.	Liquid cooling at the processors: Cold liquid circulates through cooling plates attached directly to GPUs and other high-power chips.
2.	Heat exchangers: The warmed liquid transfers its heat to a separate cooling circuit.
3.	Outside-air cooling: Large industrial heat exchangers transfer the heat into the Arctic atmosphere?.

Alaska and Alberta would be good for direct to air cooling.  The local peaker plant now being repurposed as a data-center power source was originally designed with an evaporative cooling tower, but as I understand it the locals managed to defeat it since those big hourglass shaped towers make it look like a nuclear plant.  So now they have direct to air cooling, which is much less efficient, making the power more expensive.  They also contribute to the noise.

If you go into Google maps and ask for Los Esteros Energy Center, you can see the six fans to the left of the plant, then what looks like a steamy water reservoir down there.  That?s a great location for a power plant since there are no homes near there.  If you walk along Alviso Milpitas Road, in the Google Maps earth view, you will see a bunch of campers and tents and stuff down there.  They complained about the noise so much the local authorities made them move.  Now that plant is running most of the time.  

That plant has a fresh water source: Coyote Creek, which is shown in that Google Maps image.

?

      7. What could go wrong? 

?

>?Environmental impact    Gas combustion produces substantial CO? emissions and other pollutants.

As of February 2026, CO2 is not a pollutant in the USA.  As far as I know, it still is in Canada.  Solution: put your power plant in the USA.  It is cleaner here.

 

>?If that proves true, northern Alaska could become a much more interesting location for the AI industry than most people currently imagine."

  John K Clark

I have been imagining this for some time.  Recognizing that the North Slope has big advantages, there are many sites in Alaska which have enormous promise for data centers, because they can dump heat directly into the sea, which has big advantages.  Coal plant, seawater cooling, result: almost no pollutants emitted into the atmosphere and the sea is big.  It would never notice the heat from a power plant.

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 16:32:06 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 08:32:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <oNyjSn3L38u2_TSbycYyM3nlgZ_LzZYlG6cPC_uqZE1_Dd1vItyhWc94wx7YBiwMES81ps606Bo1_GgHogSER_QxfMHQp8DrIQieBXDR59g=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.20.1794065378.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <00c501dd6ed5$8758b510$960a1f30$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On 07/11/2026 15:29, spike wrote:
>>... the poor in the USA have access to health care.  If they are
impoverished, they can go to the ER and get treated.  They do.

>...One important fact that you omitted (which seems strange as it's such an
important one): They still have to pay! Ben

In theory, sure.  In practice, they don't.  They can't get blood from a
stone.  Many of the hospital's frequent flyers are homeless.  Where are they
going to send the bill?  The hospitals know they will eat that expense.

A recent hospital stay I shared a room with a homeless guy who was coming
off of heroin.  He owned nothing.  They treated him.  Then sent him off to
be a guest of the Sacramento County sheriff for six months.

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 17:25:32 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 09:25:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] how will xi cope?
Message-ID: <00e301dd6edc$fe7bf560$fb73e020$@rainier66.com>

 

OK so now robots can work a full shift:

 

(590) Xiaomi humanoid robots work a full 8-hour shift in its EV factory -
YouTube <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/X2qjDBGiER8> 

 

Xi must keep everyone working.  Otherwise they riot and slay the Dear
Leader.  So how will Xi cope?

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 17:42:23 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 12:42:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>

*The election on Tuesday was important but a couple of years from now when
we look back on this week I think we will find that it was not the most
important thing that happened, it was this. By the time election day 2028
rolls around we will be living in a very different world: *

* Recursive AI self improvement*
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eQree8FhKI&t=1504s>

*John K Clark*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 18:03:55 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 13:03:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Here is more about this momentous discovery: *

*They went inside Anthropic* <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbQqjAJpkE>

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 18:16:09 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 10:16:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement

 

Here is more about this momentous discovery: 

 

 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbQqjAJpkE> They went inside Anthropic

 

John K Clark

 

 

For people who are afraid of all this, it is perfectly understandable and justifiable.  But runaway AI, as dangerous as it is, is our only hope of survival past our paltry 80 to 100 yr human lifespans.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 18:25:35 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 10:25:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <014d01dd6ee5$6208e860$261ab920$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

 

?> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement

 

>>?Here is more about this momentous discovery: 

 

 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbQqjAJpkE> They went inside Anthropic

 

John K Clark

 

 

>?For people who are afraid of all this, it is perfectly understandable and justifiable.  But runaway AI, as dangerous as it is, is our only hope of survival past our paltry 80 to 100 yr human lifespans.  ?spike

 

 

 

I sold my Nvidia shares in September, but now they are looking very attractive for a buy back.  If anyone has thoughts to share on that, I am listening.  I am also attentive to any plausible proposal for Alaskan data centers.  John how do we take advantage of Anthropic?s self improvement?  My interest isn?t only making money. Achieving immortality for all humanity would be cool as well.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 20:10:31 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 15:10:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0w=wZefSrXviS=duw4E8jrkcAkPQEa+RcupfaKB=FnYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 1:16?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


>
>> *>> Here is more about this momentous discovery: *
>> *They went inside Anthropic*
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbQqjAJpkE>
>
>
>
>
> *> For people who are afraid of all this, it is perfectly understandable
> and justifiable.  But runaway AI, as dangerous as it is, is our only hope
> of survival past our paltry 80 to 100 yr human lifespans.*
>

*I agree completely, things might turn out better than what Eliezer
expects, and if not? well? I can't think of a more interesting way to die. *

*John K Clark*


>
>
>
>
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Sat Nov  7 20:12:57 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2026 20:12:57 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>

On 07/11/2026 18:25, spike wrote:
> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>
> On 07/11/2026 15:29, spike wrote:
>>> ... the poor in the USA have access to health care.  If they are
> impoverished, they can go to the ER and get treated.  They do.
>
>> ...One important fact that you omitted (which seems strange as it's such an
> important one): They still have to pay! Ben
>
> In theory, sure.  In practice, they don't.  They can't get blood from a
> stone.  Many of the hospital's frequent flyers are homeless.  Where are they
> going to send the bill?  The hospitals know they will eat that expense.
>
> A recent hospital stay I shared a room with a homeless guy who was coming
> off of heroin.  He owned nothing.  They treated him.  Then sent him off to
> be a guest of the Sacramento County sheriff for six months.


Good example of the kind of thing I mean.

In order to get health care for free, you have to be a stone from which blood can't be extracted. Any stone that has any blood at all will be forced to give it all up.

It boils down to the same thing. If you are a poor sick person (not so poor as to be homeless, but poor enough to not be able to afford health care), with a teenage daughter that's bright enough to be able to, and wants to, go to college, then if you need hospital treatment, you are depriving your daughter of her education, as well as impoverishing further yourself and your entire family. What's your best course? Make yourself homeless, I suppose.

When you say "In practice, they don't", you are talking about a minority. Most poor people aren't actually homeless. You are choosing an extreme in order to prove your point, but that point only applies to the extreme case, and not to most. So you have not actually proved your point.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 20:41:37 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 15:41:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <014d01dd6ee5$6208e860$261ab920$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>
 <014d01dd6ee5$6208e860$261ab920$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0Y9d9MsfL_p9UEi1MJWz8R2p_u1_guDOj88C9a4OzVbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 1:25?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> *> I sold my Nvidia shares in September, but now they are looking very
> attractive for a buy back.  If anyone has thoughts to share on that, I am
> listening.  I am also attentive to any plausible proposal for Alaskan data
> centers.  John how do we take advantage of Anthropic?s self improvement? *


*I held on to my Nvidia, TSMC and ASML stock because I don't pretend to be
able to predict the short term gyrations of the stock market, but I think I
can predict that if new huge data centers are not built in Alaska they will
certainly be built somewhere because no matter what happens you will never
have too much computational capacity; although anthropic's recently
reported acceleration in Artificial Intelligence was not the result of more
hardware but of greatly improved software efficiency.*

*AI is getting all the headlines but there is something else going on,
improvements in Quantum Computers. IBM and Microsoft, which I also have
stock in, say they will have a large fault correcting quantum computer by
2029, as does a small company called Quantinuum
<https://www.quantinuum.com/blog/build-for-the-fault-tolerant-era-with-quantinuum-nexus>.
And The US Department of Energy is launching something they call
the Quantum Genesis initiative
<https://www.energy.gov/science/articles/energy-department-announces-initiative-create-and-deploy-worlds-first>
which
is a competition to build one by 2028.*



> *> My interest isn?t only making money. Achieving immortality for all
> humanity would be cool as well.*
>

*Me too. Being rich and living forever would be better than a poke in the
eye with a sharp stick.  *

*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 20:55:16 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 12:55:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0Y9d9MsfL_p9UEi1MJWz8R2p_u1_guDOj88C9a4OzVbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1UTMJDm-=Apn+vytfkS6keDFjzBo_8YJV-y4nDOcHASQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013e01dd6ee4$10ea91f0$32bfb5d0$@rainier66.com>
 <014d01dd6ee5$6208e860$261ab920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv0Y9d9MsfL_p9UEi1MJWz8R2p_u1_guDOj88C9a4OzVbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019101dd6efa$4b0aeef0$e120ccd0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 7 November, 2026 12:42 PM
To: spike at rainier66.com
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement

 

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 1:25?PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

> I sold my Nvidia shares in September, but now they are looking very attractive for a buy back?  spike 

 

>?I held on to my Nvidia, TSMC and ASML stock because I don't pretend to be able to predict the short term gyrations of the stock market?.

 

I am not a big active trader in real money stocks, but rather I play in prediction futures with very small amounts, really just for fun.  But prediction markets can guide real money stock trades, as illustrated by Nvidia.  I noticed around here the big No Data Centers protests, with plenty of Free Palestine riders in the crowd.  Conclusion: the American left is Data Center unfriendly.  

 

Then I speculated that the 26 election would go farther left than usual for a midterm, so I reasoned that it would be a bad election for data centers, which is bad for Nvidia, so I stepped out of it, for now.  In the long run, things look great for Nvidia however (my opinion.)  Unfortunately? I held onto my PredictIt shares too long, hoping to have a net positive for the cycle (I bet correctly but (not big enough (and not soon enough (then held the shares too long (causing me to have a net loss of about four bucks for the cycle (damn.)))))  But? it guided my decision on the Nvidia, so no problem.  I just hate losing at prediction markets, since that is a game.  Real money I don?t care about as much, but games, I love to win those.

 

>> My interest isn?t only making money. Achieving immortality for all humanity would be cool as well.

 

>?Me too. Being rich and living forever would be better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.  

 

John K Clark

 

I am still working on how to carry money with me after being uploaded.  It would suck to be uploaded and have nothing to buy, because anything we want could be imagined into existence.  Without scarcity, prices are meaningless.  We would need to create artificial scarcity somehow just to have something to speculate on, something to compete for.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 22:56:27 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 14:56:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben
Zaiboc via extropy-chat
...
>
>>... A recent hospital stay I shared a room with a homeless guy who was 
> coming off of heroin.  He owned nothing.  They treated him.  Then sent 
> him off to be a guest of the Sacramento County sheriff for six months.

>... If you are a poor sick person (not so poor as to be homeless, but poor
enough to not be able to afford health care)...  Ben

....then you qualify for government subsidized health insurance.  I will
grant that it isn't great insurance and doesn't cover everything, it would
help the sick person in the example.  His daughter can still go to college.

This chart is most enlightening: 

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!-WLm!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progress
ive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimag
es%2Fab55bc63-c70b-4fdc-abd0-d787fce0216c_1507x1247.jpeg?utm_source=substack
&utm_medium=email

There was one striking thing I noticed: the price of cars was steady for 20
years, which is equivalent to their coming down in price.  Cars got a
looooot better between 2000 and 2020, but the price didn't change much.  I
bought a new car in 1999, so it was very clear.  Anyone who goes to Costco
already knew of TV prices dropping to where they are a great way to spend a
few bucks.  The TVs dramatically improved in quality in those 25 yrs.

If the price tracks inflation, that means the cost isn't changing: the value
of the currency is dropping.  So food and housing cost isn't changing much
over time, hourly wages are increasing slightly faster than inflation.  

Now look at everything above those things: medical stuff and college.  Ben's
example is about affording college or medical bills, both of which are going
crazy in cost.

spike









From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 22:58:08 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 14:58:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>

The link didn't want to work.  Chart shown below.

 

spike

 

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
.

 

>... If you are a poor sick person (not so poor as to be homeless, but 

>poor

enough to not be able to afford health care)...  Ben

 

....then you qualify for government subsidized health insurance.  I will
grant that it isn't great insurance and doesn't cover everything, it would
help the sick person in the example.  His daughter can still go to college.

 

This chart is most enlightening: 

 

 



 

 

 
<https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!-WLm!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progres
s>
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!-WLm!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progress

ive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimag

es%2Fab55bc63-c70b-4fdc-abd0-d787fce0216c_1507x1247.jpeg?utm_source=substack

&utm_medium=email

 

There was one striking thing I noticed: the price of cars was steady for 20
years, which is equivalent to their coming down in price.  Cars got a
looooot better between 2000 and 2020, but the price didn't change much.  I
bought a new car in 1999, so it was very clear.  Anyone who goes to Costco
already knew of TV prices dropping to where they are a great way to spend a
few bucks.  The TVs dramatically improved in quality in those 25 yrs.

 

If the price tracks inflation, that means the cost isn't changing: the value
of the currency is dropping.  So food and housing cost isn't changing much
over time, hourly wages are increasing slightly faster than inflation.  

 

Now look at everything above those things: medical stuff and college.  Ben's
example is about affording college or medical bills, both of which are going
crazy in cost.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 23:03:33 2026
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2026 23:03:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Do we need money after uploading?
Message-ID: <CAL_armi6ryuq33cfO376KvRSQ+jpJYYrKzN5ZJv1yiCYbLSjDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike said - I am still working on how to carry money with me after being
uploaded.  It would suck to be uploaded and have nothing to buy, because
anything we want could be imagined into existence.  Without scarcity,
prices are meaningless.  We would need to create artificial scarcity
somehow just to have something to speculate on, something to compete for.

So I asked Gemini AI what it thought about that remark.
BillK

Gemini 3.8 Flash AI - High Thinking Level:

The paradox you are describing touches on one of the most fascinating
questions in post-biological philosophy and digital economics: *What
happens to the human drive for competition, acquisition, and status when
material constraints drop to zero?*

If an uploaded mind can simply compile a trillion-dollar mansion or a
private solar system with a thought, the concept of a "price" for rendered
matter collapses. But the idea that an uploaded existence will be purely
post-scarce?or that artificial scarcity is the only thing left to
invent?overlooks both the physical realities of computation and the
psychological architecture of the human mind.
------------------------------
1. The Substrate Reality: Why True Post-Scarcity Is an Illusion

While virtual objects (cars, castles, clothes) cost virtually nothing to
simulate, the hardware running those simulations does not escape physics.
In an uploaded environment, the ultimate currency would not be dollars or
gold; it would be *compute, energy, and clock speed*.

   -

   *Subjective Time (Clock Speed):* If you have more compute allocated to
   you, you can run at 10,000? baseline human speed. In one "real-world" hour,
   you could experience a year of life, create ten masterpieces, or out-think
   competitors. If you are poor in compute, you might run at 0.1? speed.
   Processing speed becomes the ultimate luxury.
   -

   *Cognitive Width / RAM:* How complex can your thoughts be? Can you hold
   twelve parallel streams of consciousness, perceive an 11-dimensional
   geometric theorem, or remember millions of conversations simultaneously?
   Expanding your cognitive capacity requires computational budget.
   -

   *Physical Actuation:* Interacting with the real, stubborn, atomic
   world?commanding real-world robots, claiming physical land on Earth or
   Mars, building Dyson swarms?will always remain scarce and expensive
   compared to simulated pixels.

Economist Robin Hanson explored this rigorously in The Age of Em. Rather
than a utopian playground where everything is free, he predicted a
hyper-competitive economy where digital minds compete ruthlessly for the
energy and hardware needed simply to stay running and out-produce others.
------------------------------
2. The "God Mode" Problem and Artificial Scarcity

Even within a private sandbox where compute is abundant, humans face the *cheat
code paradox*.

Anyone who has played a video game and enabled "God mode" (infinite money,
invulnerability, instant creation) knows the outcome: it is exhilarating
for an hour, amusing for a day, and terminally boring by the end of the
week. Narrative tension, satisfaction, and dopamine require *friction*.
Achievement is neurologically meaningless without the possibility of
failure or the necessity of effort.

To avoid existential anhedonia (the inability to feel pleasure or purpose),
uploaded minds would almost certainly invent *artificial scarcity*, much
like we do today:

   -

   *Gameworlds with Strict Rulesets:* Just as people spend billions of
   hours grinding in MMORPGs or competing in chess, uploads would enter closed
   simulations with hard cryptographic limits. If you want a rare starship or
   an elite badge, you must solve a mathematical puzzle, win a tactical
   tournament, or negotiate with others under constraints.
   -

   *Cryptographic Proofs of Effort:* To speculate, you need an asset that
   cannot be arbitrarily duplicated. This is precisely the principle behind
   blockchains and digital artifacts: artificial, verifiable limits on
   replication.

------------------------------
3. Positional Goods: What Money Would Actually Buy

Fred Hirsch coined the term *positional goods* for things whose value is
derived purely from their scarcity relative to others. Even in a sandbox
where material goods are free, positional goods cannot be democratized
without destroying their value:

   1.

   *Other People?s Attention:* You cannot simulate real other minds?
   genuine attention and respect without their consent. The attention of
   brilliant thinkers, cultural leaders, or beloved companions will always be
   zero-sum.
   2.

   *Access and Exclusivity:* A virtual club is not valuable because of the
   virtual velvet rope; it is valuable because of who is behind it.
   3.

   *Historical Lineage and Provenance:* Anyone can generate an exact visual
   replica of an original digital artwork or memory, but only one can have the
   cryptographic signature of the original moment of creation.
   4.

   *Information Asymmetry and Mysteries:* You cannot generate a mystery for
   yourself and also be surprised by it. Uploads would pay creators, narrative
   architects, or AGIs for novel, unpredictable experiences where they
   intentionally restrict their own omniscience.

------------------------------
4. How Would You "Carry Money With You"?

If you want to prepare economically for an uploaded transition, what
constitutes wealth?

   -

   *Substrate Rights and Infrastructure Equity:* Wealth would likely look
   like ownership stakes in the datacenters, satellite constellations, fusion
   reactors, and automated supply chains supporting the digital substrate. You
   wouldn?t carry fiat currency; you would carry fractional ownership of the
   energy grid and the server farms.
   -

   *AGI Service Contracts / Compute Endowments:* A trust fund denominated
   not in dollars, but in exaFLOPS per second in perpetuity.
   -

   *Reputational and Social Capital:* Ideas, networks, and creative
   contributions that earn royalties in compute or attention from other minds.

------------------------------
5. The Ultimate Transhumanist Dilemma: Mind Modification

There is, however, a deeper question: *Will an uploaded mind still care
about buying and speculating?*

The drive to hoard resources, speculate on markets, and out-compete peers
is an evolutionary artifact. In biological life, resources meant survival
and higher reproductive fitness; speculation and status-seeking were
hardwired into our reward loops by millions of years of scarcity.

Once you are software, your reward architecture is customizable. If you
feel empty because there is nothing to buy, you have two choices:

   1.

   *The Game Approach:* Design simulated markets with artificial scarcity
   to keep your ancestral brain stimulated with stakes, trading, and rivalry.
   2.

   *The Architectural Approach:* Modify your own psychology. You could edit
   away the craving for zero-sum status competition and replace it with direct
   joy in pure mathematical exploration, creative synthesis, philosophical
   contemplation, or social connection.

Most transhumanists argue that we must tread carefully with
self-modification: if you rewrite yourself to simply be blissfully content
staring at a static white wall (the digital equivalent of wireheading), you
may have solved the scarcity problem, but you have extinguished the human
spirit.

Therefore, your intuition is likely spot-on: *to remain recognizably human,
digital civilizations will almost certainly design games, artificial
economies, and speculative arenas.* Without stakes, the infinite is just a
waiting room.

---------------------------------------------
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 12:33:04 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 07:33:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <006901dd6ecc$c4b82890$4e2879b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.18.1793999939.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <9m0kwERcFROua8WOEH1o4w3SMFewyF8jinGGRwzTbijbRlOtvApnomL9oKG5DeOylhBVcUIzI83J1QR9CR7S5vO83JA7D8VnIyu_B0CHNsI=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0Pxjiewp7_oj_goxGZDOaa+YHYnppxK+B812ZP3Jg=Ug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 10:29?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> So why doesn't most medical research somewhere else?  Answer: because in
> the USA, the medical system is a profit center. *


*Question: IF (a very big IF) you are right should the American public want
medical research to go somewhere else? Answer: Yes! Because then the cost
of medical care would be much less, and they would live longer, and they
would be in less pain. But of course you are about as far from being
correct as it is possible to be. *

*Question: Would a sick American libertarian say he had 3 choices and all
of them would be moral: don't buy the super expensive drug in the USA and
die, buy the super expensive drug in the USA and live in poverty in that
country, or buy the life-saving drug in Canada where it is dirt cheap and
then ILLEGALLY SMUGGLE it back home to the USA. Answer: YES!*

*Question: Spike, are you a libertarian? *

*John K Clark*










>
> >> ...Our system is set up to compel medical research investment to come
> here [...] John
>
> > ...If you were right (and of course you are NOT) then compelling medical
> research to come to the US would be an extremely stupid thing to do because
> the end result of it would be American consumers would be poorer, would die
> younger and do so in greater pain. Fuck that, do medical research someplace
> else!
>
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 13:23:48 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 08:23:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
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References: <mailman.20.1794065378.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <oNyjSn3L38u2_TSbycYyM3nlgZ_LzZYlG6cPC_uqZE1_Dd1vItyhWc94wx7YBiwMES81ps606Bo1_GgHogSER_QxfMHQp8DrIQieBXDR59g=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0J5Y1wZ3nCN5Tc=vy_Gc6K6gA3MRDF9B4=XfQi5dRARQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 07/11/2026 15:29, spike wrote:


>
> * > the poor in the USA have access to health care.  If they are
> impoverished, they can go to the ER and get treated.  They do.*


*It is emergency care only, not comprehensive healthcare, emergency rooms
do NOT treat non-emergency issues like having cancer, or chronic conditions
like high blood pressure, or diabetes, or respiratory diseases such as
asthma and emphysema, or having a bad heart and needing surgery for it, or
having bad kidneys and needing a transplant. An emergency room will
stabilize a patient but that's all.*

*And emergency room treatment is **NOT free. The hospital will bill the
patient afterward and that bill can be ENORMOUS. At one time low-income
people could get a little help with that from Medicaid, but Donald and his
brainless MAGA minions have been doing their best to stamp that out. **Because
of this, poor people delay care even under emergency conditions. In the USA
the average cost of just the ambulance trip to the hospital is $2086. The
USA is the richest country in the world, and this is a fucking disgrace!!*

*John K Clark*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 13:38:10 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 08:38:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
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 <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 6:00?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


>
> This chart is most enlightening:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


> *Spike, how are you able to post charts? Every time that I've tried to
post a chart or a picture to this list our old steam powered antique web
server says my post has been rejected because it's too big.  *

*And by the way, I'll be damned if I can see how are a chart that shows an
astronomical increased in hospital costs in the USA strengthens your
argument that the healthcare system in the USA is so good that it needs
absolutely positively no changes whatsoever, except perhaps to make things
a little more difficult for poor people.  *

* John K Clark*
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 13:44:56 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 08:44:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2-5UvO+XkfS=MpVQBpfZ-yhdetaCvUtSVr7xutdsSqqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 3:15?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

On 07/11/2026 18:25, spike wrote:
>

*>> A recent hospital stay I shared a room with a homeless guy who was
>> coming off of heroin.  He owned nothing.  They treated him.  Then sent him
>> off to be a guest of the Sacramento County sheriff for six months.*
>
>
>
> > Good example of the kind of thing I mean.
> In order to get health care for free, you have to be a stone from which
> blood can't be extracted. Any stone that has any blood at all will be
> forced to give it all up.


*Damn, I wish I'd said that. Excellent!  *


*John K Clark*



>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  8 14:44:39 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 06:44:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0Pxjiewp7_oj_goxGZDOaa+YHYnppxK+B812ZP3Jg=Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.18.1793999939.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <9m0kwERcFROua8WOEH1o4w3SMFewyF8jinGGRwzTbijbRlOtvApnomL9oKG5DeOylhBVcUIzI83J1QR9CR7S5vO83JA7D8VnIyu_B0CHNsI=@proton.me>
 <006901dd6ecc$c4b82890$4e2879b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv0Pxjiewp7_oj_goxGZDOaa+YHYnppxK+B812ZP3Jg=Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01dd6f8f$af66cfa0$0e346ee0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 



 

>?Question: Would a sick American libertarian say he had 3 choices and all of them would be moral: ? John K Clark

 

 

John there is a fourth choice, a perfectly logical one: move to another country which suits you better.  I do hope Hasan Piker chooses that, for he clearly despises America and the feeling is mutual.

 

 

>?Question: Spike, are you a libertarian?

 

 

I wouldn?t call myself an unfettered libertarian.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  8 14:48:46 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 06:48:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0J5Y1wZ3nCN5Tc=vy_Gc6K6gA3MRDF9B4=XfQi5dRARQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.20.1794065378.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <oNyjSn3L38u2_TSbycYyM3nlgZ_LzZYlG6cPC_uqZE1_Dd1vItyhWc94wx7YBiwMES81ps606Bo1_GgHogSER_QxfMHQp8DrIQieBXDR59g=@proton.me>
 <CAJPayv0J5Y1wZ3nCN5Tc=vy_Gc6K6gA3MRDF9B4=XfQi5dRARQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011501dd6f90$42aa6560$c7ff3020$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat



>? At one time low-income people could get a little help with that from Medicaid? The USA is the richest country in the world, and this is a fucking disgrace!!

 

John K Clark

 

 

 

You are conflating country with government.  The richest country in the world if you add every citizen?s net worth, but the poorest government on the planet: it has the biggest debt of any government.  This is why we cannot hand it more obligations.  It cannot sustain even the obligations it already has.  

 

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 15:04:52 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 10:04:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Why_is_=E2=80=9Ccost_of_living=E2=80=9D_such_a_b?=
	=?utf-8?q?ig_problem=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <011501dd6f90$42aa6560$c7ff3020$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.20.1794065378.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <oNyjSn3L38u2_TSbycYyM3nlgZ_LzZYlG6cPC_uqZE1_Dd1vItyhWc94wx7YBiwMES81ps606Bo1_GgHogSER_QxfMHQp8DrIQieBXDR59g=@proton.me>
 <CAJPayv0J5Y1wZ3nCN5Tc=vy_Gc6K6gA3MRDF9B4=XfQi5dRARQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011501dd6f90$42aa6560$c7ff3020$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2v-Aq93TEu6Q4NzOH-qDcz52yv6J9eZ-Y9+EgE8vT+bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2026 at 9:48?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> The richest country in the world if you add every citizen?s net worth,
> but the poorest government on the planet:*


*People have been spouting that same old line for well over 150 years, and
we're still the richest country in the world, BUT not the healthiest, or
the longest lived, or the population that experiences the least pain.
You're still fighting yesterday's war and pretending that AI does not
exist, it's time that you moved to the 21st century, or at least into the
20th; the 19th just doesn't cut it anymore.*


*John K Clark*







> *>?** At one time **low-income people could get a little help with that
> from Medicaid?** The USA is the richest country in the world, and this is
> a fucking disgrace!!*
>
>
>
> *John K Clark*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  8 15:06:15 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 07:06:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
 <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, 8 November, 2026 5:38 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com; Ben Zaiboc <benzaiboc at proton.me>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

 

 

 

On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 6:00?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

This chart is most enlightening: 

 

 



 

 

Spike, how are you able to post charts? Every time that I've tried to post a chart or a picture to this list our old steam powered antique web server says my post has been rejected because it's too big?.

 

Take a screen shot or copy/paste into an email to yourself, trim it down to just the figure of interest, go into the email to yourself, copy the image, paste into the Exi post, switch to graphic mode if it asks.  Notice the image is degraded quality, but you can still read the fine print.

 

  

 

>?And by the way, I'll be damned if I can see how are a chart that shows an astronomical increased in hospital costs in the USA strengthens your argument that the healthcare system in the USA is so good that it needs absolutely positively no changes whatsoever, except perhaps to make things a little more difficult for poor people.  

 

 John K Clark

 

It needs changes.  Just not the ones you suggest.  To that point: I don?t know how to get Europeans to pay more for yank-developed medications.  

 

But consider for instance, if you have ever employed physicians assistants, you know they are very good, and they cost a lot less than doctors.  Generic drugs cost way less.  You don?t need the name brands.  If you wish to experiment with it, try some of the many low-priced viagra knockoffs (they work (hey you might as well have fun while you are experimenting.))  

 

Once you learn how to use the AI tools effectively, such as Doximity, that doesn?t cost anything, and you will astonish your own doctors by coming in there knowing more about your condition than they do.  Often I get asked if I am a doctor.  No, but I am using the same tools they do, and I have a lot of time to learn all the details of my specific condition.  The doctors hafta know everything, but I can study one particular malady and know the hell outta that one area, I can know all the latest medications, all the terminology, the risks, the likely outcomes.  Doctors can do way better with highly informed patients.  I am retired, so I have nothing better to do.

 

Doctors are not gods.  They know medical things and can prescribe medications, but if you look at how they are being tasked, it surprises me they are as good as they are.  They seldom get patients who are effective communicators for instance.  Well, you know EXACTLY how you feel, I know exactly how I feel.  If you can express that to Doximity and find a reasonable diagnosis, doctors will follow your lead.  They will bring their buddies and students in to talk to you.  Ther terminology is obscure, but you can memorize it all.  That?s what they do in medical school: much of it is memorizing terminology.  You can get satisfactory results from the yank medical system, but it takes effort on the part of the patient.  I do recommend getting health insurance.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 18:42:47 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 19:42:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
 <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnhbditLssJ7GJjb-nTe8dgLa7Z__ToSpNoobosgFBowpw@mail.gmail.com>

How do you get Europeans, or the rest of the world for that, to pay more
for medicines developed in the US? You set a price that you are willing to
accept for your product and then if there is enough overlap between your
requested price and the buyers willingness to pay then Hey! 'you got a
sale.
Capitalism 101.
Set the price as needed to get sufficient income wealth etc. etm.

If the overlap between production and demand doesn't immediately match then
you start dealing and maybe come to an agreement and then Hey! you got a
sale!
Without agreement on price, you have no sale and the buyer have no
product.
Everyone sad and poor.
Capitalism 101.

Since India buys US developed medicine for a price that they are willing to
pay and the US are willing to sell at, then the market works.
This is Capitalism 101 and also in perfect agreement with the extropian
principles.
Also with libertarian principles and even with socialist principles (shock
and gasp!)

That patients in India, Pakistan,  China, Sweden, kongo and som other
developing countries pay less than for the same substances than a patient
in the US is not a market failure, it is a regulation failure and a sign of
incompetence.

Regulation failure since the drug market in capitalistic USA is less driven
by a free market than the drug market in socialist Sweden.

Incompetence since Why the Fuck! do you tolerate that shit?

/Henrik


Den s?n 8 nov. 2026 16:08spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, 8 November, 2026 5:38 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com; Ben Zaiboc <benzaiboc at proton.me>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2026 at 6:00?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> This chart is most enlightening:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Spike, how are you able to post charts? Every time that I've tried to
> post a chart or a picture to this list our old steam powered antique web
> server says my post has been rejected because it's too big?.*
>
>
>
> *Take a screen shot or copy/paste into an email to yourself, trim it down
> to just the figure of interest, go into the email to yourself, copy the
> image, paste into the Exi post, switch to graphic mode if it asks.  Notice
> the image is degraded quality, but you can still read the fine print.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *>?And by the way, I'll be damned if I can see how are a chart that shows
> an astronomical increased in hospital costs in the USA strengthens your
> argument that the healthcare system in the USA is so good that it needs
> absolutely positively no changes whatsoever, except perhaps to make things
> a little more difficult for poor people.  *
>
>
>
> * John K Clark*
>
>
>
> *It needs changes.  Just not the ones you suggest.  To that point: I don?t
> know how to get Europeans to pay more for yank-developed medications.  *
>
>
>
> *But consider for instance, if you have ever employed physicians
> assistants, you know they are very good, and they cost a lot less than
> doctors.  Generic drugs cost way less.  You don?t need the name brands.  If
> you wish to experiment with it, try some of the many low-priced viagra
> knockoffs (they work (hey you might as well have fun while you are
> experimenting.))  *
>
>
>
> *Once you learn how to use the AI tools effectively, such as Doximity,
> that doesn?t cost anything, and you will astonish your own doctors by
> coming in there knowing more about your condition than they do.  Often I
> get asked if I am a doctor.  No, but I am using the same tools they do, and
> I have a lot of time to learn all the details of my specific condition.
> The doctors hafta know everything, but I can study one particular malady
> and know the hell outta that one area, I can know all the latest
> medications, all the terminology, the risks, the likely outcomes.  Doctors
> can do way better with highly informed patients.  I am retired, so I have
> nothing better to do.*
>
>
>
> *Doctors are not gods.  They know medical things and can prescribe
> medications, but if you look at how they are being tasked, it surprises me
> they are as good as they are.  They seldom get patients who are effective
> communicators for instance.  Well, you know EXACTLY how you feel, I know
> exactly how I feel.  If you can express that to Doximity and find a
> reasonable diagnosis, doctors will follow your lead.  They will bring their
> buddies and students in to talk to you.  Ther terminology is obscure, but
> you can memorize it all.  That?s what they do in medical school: much of it
> is memorizing terminology.  You can get satisfactory results from the yank
> medical system, but it takes effort on the part of the patient.  I do
> recommend getting health insurance.*
>
>
>
> *spike*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  8 18:51:02 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 10:51:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnhbditLssJ7GJjb-nTe8dgLa7Z__ToSpNoobosgFBowpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
 <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnhbditLssJ7GJjb-nTe8dgLa7Z__ToSpNoobosgFBowpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020e01dd6fb2$1abb3080$50319180$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 
?

 

Incompetence since Why the Fuck! do you tolerate that shit?

 

/Henrik 

 

 

OK, if we choose to not tolerate the incompetence, what do you suggest?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 20:33:18 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 21:33:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <020e01dd6fb2$1abb3080$50319180$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnhbditLssJ7GJjb-nTe8dgLa7Z__ToSpNoobosgFBowpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <020e01dd6fb2$1abb3080$50319180$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnjb6+m5on2g4XoYPdj2jQodCixvR6D-MkSpPSN+BcphKw@mail.gmail.com>

Now we are cooking with gas!

Thank you.

Well I do have a number of suggestions.
Many of those would rightfully trigger a socialist averse response and so
despite being objectively right (duh) not useful since what's objectively
right is highly subjective.

I would like to start with true capitalism since much of the problems are
(my opinion but I think you will have problems showing something else) a
flawed market who calls itself free but is anything but that.

That is an over regulated market for healthcare, insurance, medicines,
medtech and medical research. This flawed market priorities 3party income
over the customer/patient.

The patient can not be a free actor in this market since everything the
patient interact with have a massive legislative disadvantage for the
patient/customer and gives an unfair advantage to the other side.

Remove all the artificial blocks for a free market and you will eventually
come to the same level as everyone else with a free market.

If you also make it possible to form a co-op for most customers to join
forces and economy to become an equal actor, equal with the different
healthcare industries and pharmas then you will have reasonable healthcare
to an reasonable price.

That is perfectly possible to achieve in a fully capitalistic setting as
long as the insurance companies are economicaly loyal to their customers
and not external "investors" aka economical predators.
The proof is in the care pudding,  plenty places in the world have
perfectly tolerable healthcare despite beeing highly capitalistic.
Just keep out the artificial protection of predators and let the customers
freely chose who will represent them in the market.
Some socialist leanings makes this easier for the common customer but is
despite my opinions not all that necessary.

/Henrik


Den s?n 8 nov. 2026 19:51 <spike at rainier66.com> skrev:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com>
> *?*
>
>
>
> Incompetence since Why the Fuck! do you tolerate that shit?
>
>
>
> /Henrik
>
>
>
>
>
> OK, if we choose to not tolerate the incompetence, what do you suggest?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 20:50:09 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 15:50:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The American Brain Drain Claims Another Scientist
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3+crsbTXhZXhD9PcQm9yPu4_CCkxaNtuO7hrrKH+OzdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Explore this gift article from The New York Times. You can read it for free
without a subscription.

The American Brain Drain Claims Another Scientist

Kelly Holley-Bockelmann was one of the top astrophysicists in the country
until President Trump?s policies affected every part of her work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/11/07/science/space/holley-bockelmann-astrophysicist-space-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.O1E.pMsz.0BDpSgttwrVe&smid=em-share
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From benzaiboc at proton.me  Sun Nov  8 21:33:28 2026
From: benzaiboc at proton.me (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2026 21:33:28 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.30.1794163395.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.30.1794163395.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <LunBJPcnbJ347Go3u5-4G2t3AV97I4cpI2I5KbQmwYL5qim5aWrlNIG8ClqGXWlM2q3DU5L3RPJk8HPHQZKYUhYucD3eNSxVZ6wMlTwKsAo=@proton.me>

On 08/11/2026 18:43, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:
> Regulation failure since the drug market in capitalistic USA is less driven by a free market than the drug market in socialist Sweden. 
>
> Incompetence since Why the Fuck! do you tolerate that shit?


Because it embodies the famed 'American Dream': You Too can become obscenely rich by cheating, lying and, if all else fails, forcing other people to give you their money, as long as you are callous enough to ignore the damage you will do.

What most people seem to fail to realise, or maybe just ignore, is that (1) 'You Too' don't have much of a chance because the system is rigged against you, and (2) Money is a zero-sum game. You can only have multi-billionaires by plunging millions of other people into poverty. Just like politicians, you pretty much have to be a psychopath to be really successful.
-- 
Ben
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 22:43:42 2026
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 17:43:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Claude and OpenAI Just Did a Decade of Lab Work in Months
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3R6Gn-PPRCBtXHWscj9uN8TVAdrBsMMXoNsoobHptMcg@mail.gmail.com>

* Claude and OpenAI Just Did a Decade of Lab Work in Months*
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ9yiJH0HG0&t=348s>

*John K Clark*
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  8 23:32:20 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 15:32:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnjb6+m5on2g4XoYPdj2jQodCixvR6D-MkSpPSN+BcphKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
 <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnhbditLssJ7GJjb-nTe8dgLa7Z__ToSpNoobosgFBowpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <020e01dd6fb2$1abb3080$50319180$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnjb6+m5on2g4XoYPdj2jQodCixvR6D-MkSpPSN+BcphKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <027e01dd6fd9$66d340d0$3479c270$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, 8 November, 2026 12:33 PM
To: Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com>
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

 

Now we are cooking with gas!

 

Thank you. 

 

Well I do have a number of suggestions.  

Many of those would rightfully trigger a socialist averse response and so despite being objectively right (duh) not useful since what's objectively right is highly subjective. 

 

I would like to start with true capitalism since much of the problems are (my opinion but I think you will have problems showing something else) a flawed market who calls itself free but is anything but that.

 

That is an over regulated market for healthcare, insurance, medicines, medtech and medical research. This flawed market priorities 3party income over the customer/patient.

 

The patient can not be a free actor in this market since everything the patient interact with have a massive legislative disadvantage for the patient/customer and gives an unfair advantage to the other side.

 

Remove all the artificial blocks for a free market and you will eventually come to the same level as everyone else with a free market. 

 

If you also make it possible to form a co-op for most customers to join forces and economy to become an equal actor, equal with the different healthcare industries and pharmas then you will have reasonable healthcare to an reasonable price.

 

That is perfectly possible to achieve in a fully capitalistic setting as long as the insurance companies are economicaly loyal to their customers and not external "investors" aka economical predators.

The proof is in the care pudding,  plenty places in the world have perfectly tolerable healthcare despite beeing highly capitalistic. 

Just keep out the artificial protection of predators and let the customers freely chose who will represent them in the market.

Some socialist leanings makes this easier for the common customer but is despite my opinions not all that necessary. 

 

/Henrik 

 

 

Henrik I cannot claim to understand your answer.

I will suggest one however.  In the USA, one is legally required to have health insurance.  If one cannot afford it, one can apply for subsidized health insurance.  Problem: the US government cannot balance its budget and will be unable to pay for that much longer.  Answer: move all government subsidies of health insurance to the state level.  The US federal government is out of other people?s money but the states are not.

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  8 23:35:33 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 15:35:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <LunBJPcnbJ347Go3u5-4G2t3AV97I4cpI2I5KbQmwYL5qim5aWrlNIG8ClqGXWlM2q3DU5L3RPJk8HPHQZKYUhYucD3eNSxVZ6wMlTwKsAo=@proton.me>
References: <mailman.30.1794163395.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <LunBJPcnbJ347Go3u5-4G2t3AV97I4cpI2I5KbQmwYL5qim5aWrlNIG8ClqGXWlM2q3DU5L3RPJk8HPHQZKYUhYucD3eNSxVZ6wMlTwKsAo=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <02b401dd6fd9$d9db30b0$8d919210$@rainier66.com>


> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat

>
> Incompetence since Why the Fuck! do you tolerate that shit?


>...Because it embodies the famed 'American Dream': You Too can become
obscenely rich by cheating, lying and, if all else fails, forcing other
people to give you their money, as long as you are callous enough to ignore
the damage you will do...
-- 
Ben
_______________________________________________


How do you force other people to give you their money?  I am assuming this
doesn't involve weapons.

spike


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 23:59:30 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 18:59:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <027e01dd6fd9$66d340d0$3479c270$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRbKcCUs0HLYRwFO=F=hyhSoTG87tQYMM9y10731CrzTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2026 at 6:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Henrik I cannot claim to understand your answer.

Your previous statements in this discussion suggest the reason is
entirely on your side: that some part of you is deliberately
preventing you from comprehending what most of us can easily see.

I don't know how to help you past that, other than by pointing out the problem.


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 00:01:15 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 19:01:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <02b401dd6fd9$d9db30b0$8d919210$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.30.1794163395.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <LunBJPcnbJ347Go3u5-4G2t3AV97I4cpI2I5KbQmwYL5qim5aWrlNIG8ClqGXWlM2q3DU5L3RPJk8HPHQZKYUhYucD3eNSxVZ6wMlTwKsAo=@proton.me>
 <02b401dd6fd9$d9db30b0$8d919210$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSc90M9O5tAd2XQdBm9n1CXuK0Q6wcPJ58=LBbe+==FxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2026 at 6:36?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> How do you force other people to give you their money?  I am assuming this
> doesn't involve weapons.

In this case, by producing the only thing that can save their lives,
and preventing anyone else from making a similar solution.  Drugs like
this are not weapons per se, but the net effect is comparable (though
not identical).


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  9 00:05:32 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 16:05:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSc90M9O5tAd2XQdBm9n1CXuK0Q6wcPJ58=LBbe+==FxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.30.1794163395.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <LunBJPcnbJ347Go3u5-4G2t3AV97I4cpI2I5KbQmwYL5qim5aWrlNIG8ClqGXWlM2q3DU5L3RPJk8HPHQZKYUhYucD3eNSxVZ6wMlTwKsAo=@proton.me>
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 <CALAdGNSc90M9O5tAd2XQdBm9n1CXuK0Q6wcPJ58=LBbe+==FxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ba01dd6fde$0a0b52c0$1e21f840$@rainier66.com>


> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2026 at 6:36?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>... How do you force other people to give you their money?  I am assuming 
> this doesn't involve weapons.

>...In this case, by producing the only thing that can save their lives, and preventing anyone else from making a similar solution.  Drugs like this are not weapons per se, but the net effect is comparable (though not identical).

_______________________________________________


So your objection is with intellectual property law?  Or discovering something that intellectual property law enables you to force people to give you their money?  Is it the discovery or the IP law that is your objection?

spike



From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 00:44:08 2026
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2026 01:44:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <027e01dd6fd9$66d340d0$3479c270$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <D5aYPmRahYySJMy2JHd_5QMay521N6L3cYBdJQm2j0bx3UHQOx0iGc-cYxauJ3Kcx122HtOpFxoHlZy0cF7LYxmKfvhXKz2vKojDIGKYhWA=@proton.me>
 <01ca01dd6f0b$39142d90$ab3c88b0$@rainier66.com>
 <01cb01dd6f0b$74f77240$5ee656c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2MwtA8HJnXtam0tg+LSXM7Rn8iA+4E9kimKBkz4FSK_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <012f01dd6f92$b3d78fe0$1b86afa0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAF0GBnhbditLssJ7GJjb-nTe8dgLa7Z__ToSpNoobosgFBowpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <020e01dd6fb2$1abb3080$50319180$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAF0GBni-ac35S_sdCtBsy2MNOqjy4zgi6z+LHORPHxQPYzoHVQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Henrik I cannot claim to understand your answer.
>
> I will suggest one however.  In the USA, one is legally required to have
> health insurance.  If one cannot afford it, one can apply for subsidized
> health insurance.  Problem: the US government cannot balance its budget and
> will be unable to pay for that much longer.  Answer: move all government
> subsidies of health insurance to the state level.  The US federal
> government is out of other people?s money but the states are not.
>
> spike
>
If you as an extropian don't understand or accept an market based
explanation then I really don't know what to say. I'll try anyway.

Please accept that anything that strengthen the consumer would help.
For want of other alternatives I suggest the Swedish variant, that is
basically a strong insurance company, state based in Sweden but not
necessarily so in other places, who represent the patient and buy relevant
care on a free market.  Note FREE !
You have most of that already so you just need to kick out a number of
Economic predators who have no business preying on the market and you do
not even need to kick them out, just level the playing field. Now the laws
support the predators and grind the patients for profit without giving the
victims any chance to defend themselves.

I have just come back to my on call room after a visit to the ER treating a
dying gentleman who is probably about your age, to young to die but not
young anymore.
I don't need to count iv needles, nor injections. he has payed his
ambulance earlier in life, no relatives are bankrupted because he get a
good palliation in our hospital.
We can concentrate on good care, we get a good price on equipment and
medicines so it is even "cost effective "
No greedy insurance rep who says "that is not covered by insurance "
Do you have any idea how straigth up fucking horrible it was when I was in
Nashville when the insurance rep who took part in the rounds said : no, you
can't do a CT, that's not covered by insurance. You can't do that this etm
etm.

I say, there are a number of walls found wanting in your country. But
that's probably socialist shit so do something less bloody.
And yes I do take this personally even when it is US citizens who suffer.

/Henrik
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From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Nov  9 02:17:50 2026
From: ablainey at aol.com (Alex Blainey)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2026 02:17:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Recursive AI self improvement
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3ptOWujibNW8nVWi416Ao5edgSvBOVLWzuVx7teqX+fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <267634596.678560.1794190670778@mail.yahoo.com>

Apart from rewriting their own code, at this point im convinced AI will Audit and source resolve us to death !
omg they love an audit.
The time and effort they are willing to commit to missing the actual point of an job is astounding.
On Saturday, 7 November 2026 at 17:42:23 GMT, ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

The election on Tuesday was important but a couple of years from now when we look back on this week I think we will find that it was not the most important thing that happened, it was this. By the time election day 2028 rolls around we will be living in a very different world:?
 Recursive AI self improvement

John K Clark_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 02:21:52 2026
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 21:21:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <02ba01dd6fde$0a0b52c0$1e21f840$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.30.1794163395.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <LunBJPcnbJ347Go3u5-4G2t3AV97I4cpI2I5KbQmwYL5qim5aWrlNIG8ClqGXWlM2q3DU5L3RPJk8HPHQZKYUhYucD3eNSxVZ6wMlTwKsAo=@proton.me>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRnXiH0LtpAuFRvnWLdH-x97i=s3D4XCqdMA_hvh=xNdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2026, 7:05?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> So your objection is with intellectual property law?  Or discovering
> something that intellectual property law enables you to force people to
> give you their money?  Is it the discovery or the IP law that is your
> objection?
>

No.

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  9 02:28:32 2026
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2026 18:28:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why is "cost of living" such a big problem?
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBni-ac35S_sdCtBsy2MNOqjy4zgi6z+LHORPHxQPYzoHVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.22.1794075949.841.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <003801dd6ff2$040f4020$0c2dc060$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> 
?

>?If you as an extropian don't understand or accept an market based explanation then I really don't know what to say. I'll try anyway.

 

>?You have most of that already so you just need to kick out a number of Economic predators who have no business preying on the market?/Henrik 

 

 

How do you distinguish between legitimate insurance companies and economic predators?  What is the mechanism for ?kick out??

 

spike

 

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