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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bradbury@aeiveos.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bradbury@aeiveos.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "ExI chat list" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:29
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat]
Animals</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>> <BR>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph
wrote:<BR>> <BR>> > The sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in
500 million years, well<BR>> > prior to it turning into a red
giant.<BR>> <BR>> From an extropic perspective is unreasonable to assume
this scenario.<BR>> (I have not bothered taking on all of the astronomers who
promote this<BR>> perspective however -- since it is perhaps hundreds to
thousands of<BR>> individuals and I simply do not view it as worth my
time).<BR>> <BR>> For this statement to make sense you either have to
argue that humanity<BR>> will be extinct or will have exited the solar system
long before that<BR>> "natural" condition might take place *or* argue that
humanity if it<BR>> exists as long as 500 million years will not engineer
either the Earth<BR>> or other habitats or the sun so this simply will not
happen. One then<BR>> has real probabilities problems.<BR>> <BR>>
You cannot ignore the presence of intelligence as a component in the<BR>>
evolution of the universe.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course Robert... I meant, if we left them alone
on the Earth and the Earth</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>as it is and was. I.e. we "remove" ourselves
elsewhere (certainly one</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>scenario often discussed). I do not believe in the
moral existence of "species", only</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>individuals and their social choices. Individuals
die, not species, as actual</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>neurological entities. Perhaps you could say
"species" exist as a meme. They</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>exist within a physical definition. But not a moral
definition. All death should occur</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>by consent. All sentient or semi-conscious lift
should be offered choice. This is my</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>perspective, one informed not by a post-humanist
perspective but a post-species</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>perspective (along the lines of Broderickian
"Exes"). This means that I do not go</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>along with greens and the likes of David Suzuki,
since I see the environment as a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>tool for neurologically based beings (and including
those to come such as AIs).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Though our present biosphere has a spiritual
dimension nonetheless it will be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>set aside so far as the neurological kingdom is
concerned... in a strange reversal</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of the myth of Eden we will enter a new Garden, of
non-neurological plant and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>nanomaterial and energy</FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2> systems - we will all eat of the fruit of eternal life and
the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>fruit of knowledge.<BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Humans are not "actively selecting" for
intelligence in dogs and cats, not<BR>> even in sheepdogs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ca-ca.
Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the animals --<BR>>>I
doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for
intelligence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Active surely means active. It means a deliberate,
planned, tested and implemented</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>breeding programme with specific sets of
objectives. E.g. memory, puzzle solving,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>anticipation, extrapolation, guessing, social
rapport etc..</FONT></DIV>
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