Right now I'm listening to the soundtrack of the David Lynch film "Dune."  I hope it will set the right mood as I 
write this post.

"MIKE TREDER " wrote: 
As an original and current WTA Director, and as a member of the Executive 
Advisory Team for the Extropy Institute, I've been dismayed and disheartened 
by the recent unpleasantness between people within the two organizations. It 
is unnecessary, unseemly, and counterproductive. In a silly fight like this, 
there are no winners, only losers. 
>

But that sure doesn't stop anyone! lol  When their egos & goals are at stake, they may become very willing to have 
casualties of various sorts whether it be the transhumanist movement reputation and/or what is ethical. 

you continues:
It seems patently obvious to me that we have so much to gain by working 
together and so much to lose by defeating each other - why can't we keep our 
eyes on the prize? The tendency of some to be offensive and provocative, and 
the tendency of others to be defensive and destructive, can only lead to 
ruin for us all. 
>

Maybe not ruin, just a slowing down of our progress toward collective goals.  Mike, you speak like a noble-hearted 
Jedi knight (right before he gets killed in the following scene).  Please try to think "Paul Atreides" (actually that 
may not be such a good idea...).  

you continues:
I can easily find fault on both sides, although I prefer to focus on our 
common and complementary strengths instead of dwelling on what divides us. 
I've urged James Hughes and Nick Bostrom to exercise leadership by being 
inclusive and conciliatory; I've counseled Harvey Newstrom and Bruce Klein 
to show restraint and to seek compromises that satisfy everyone's primary 
needs. But my efforts to be a calming influence seem to have had little 
effect. 
>

I am still amazed that Nick Bostrom is on "the other side" from Harvey in this affair.  Damn!  I would have never 
expected that.  Mike, you are like the very goodhearted gentleman in a war zone talking peace as everyone is wanting 
you to get out of the way so they can get a clear shot at the other guy.  My best wishes to you in your efforts at 
healing the WTA board of directors.  Just remember that sometimes the time for reconciliation is past and that you 
have to fight for what is right.   

you continue:
Still, we must try. Let's remember that none of us are transhumans yet; we 
are only imperfect humans dreaming of and working toward a better future. 
Our leaders, representatives, and fellow members are subject to flaws and 
failings, as are each of us. But there are no monsters running loose, no one 
is trying to become a dictator, and those who issue criticism are not crazy 
or evil. We're just folks (at least until the Singularity). 
(end)

Correction, Steve Nichols is already a transhuman!  I know because he explained this matter in detail on the list a 
few years back.  But I still say he better beat Deep Blue at chess three times in a row or outrun a speeding Ferrari 
before he makes such claims. lol

Mike, you are probably right about there being no monsters or evil people running loose.  But perhaps they just don't 
have the power and "options" in this world to do the things you mention?  In some alternate universe where the WTA 
holds major political and military power, are the two sides unleashing deadly weapons of mass destruction to wipe each 
other out?  Or hiring deadly assassins while they impolitely argue?  You just don't know.  When in this universe we 
get the tech to peer into those next door, I'm going to find my proof and then say "a-hah, I was right!"  And then my 
United Dimensions PeaceKeeper forces will flood into the other universe to knock their heads together and make the 
place safe for libertarianism! : )

And while I'm doing that over there, you will find the Jupiter Brains formerly known as Harvey, Bruce, Dr. Hughes and 
Dr. Bostrom battling it out with methods presently unknown to us.  Yes, and it will all be traceable to these last 
several months!  We have to work out our differences so after we "transcend" we won't simply take our conflicts to the 
next level.  I don't want anyone thinking the singularity is going to magically make us all get along fine where we 
didn't before.     

you continue:
I appeal to everyone - WTA members, Extropians, transhumanists of all 
stripes - to refocus on our highest priorities. Let's begin by making 
positive statements about what we must stand for; remember why we came 
together in the first place; stand in a virtual circle, hold cyber hands, 
sing a couple of inspiring songs, have an Internet group hug, and then get 
back to work. 
(end)

This does work but only up to a point.  The problem is when you have people who choose not to have a sincere change of 
heart and put their egos and grudges aside.  But your vision of community and friendship does totally appeal to me.  
You are a good man Charlie Brown. : )  

Mike, you are the kind of guy I would want to have dating my sister (if I had one).  Actually Brett might be the 
better choice (depending on the level of social aggression in the environment)!    

------ 

Brett Paatsch replied:
I suspect your sole question in that post ("why can't we (sic) keep our 
eyes on the prize") may have been rhetorical. Yet if your dismay and 
disheartenment is genuine perhaps it was not. 

If so, I suggest you examine your premises. 

First, I suggest you consider in what sense there is a "we". 

Perhaps consider the tragedy of the commons. If virtual communities 
are easy to join and are easy, relatively to attain positions 
of ostensible authority in then they are also easily corrupted and hijacked 
by people with egos (I don't say that pejoratively - we (I mean living 
people) all have egos) and low personal investment. Perhaps when the 
cost of of entry are so low it is easy for the brands to be debased. 
Perhaps you have some illusions about the elite nature of the folk that 
frequent the same places you do. Perhaps. 
(end)

Brett, a very good point.  But I will say that Dr. Hughes, Harvey, Bruce and others at WTA are pretty top-flight 
people in terms of education and dedication.  But being bright and ambitious does not always mean "always nice, 
empathetic, cooperative and mature." 

you continue:
Second, I suggest you consider in what sense there is "a prize". And how 
even if "we" could be operationalized, "we" in your terms would go after 
that prize. Can you get consensus in your view from the folks you see 
as the "we" on even the "highest priorities"?R (R = Rhetorical). Note 
priorities are plural not singular - like "the prize". 
(end)

Yep, a very observant point once again.  Sadly we human beings tend to be shortsighted in our goals/needs/ego hunger. 
And getting everyone within a movement to firmly & sincerely join together in well-defined common goals (for which 
they are even held accountable) is very hard.   

you continue:
I don't have time to engage in this discussion too deeply, in fact, I'm 
probably done with it now. You can take or leave my comments as 
you see fit. 
(end)

Pretty insightful comments overall in my view.  I think you should join the  board of directors and see what you can 
do there with your talents. ; )  C'mon...  In fact I want both you and Mike to run for their board of directors.

you continue:
Group Hug? - Isn't that what litters of baby rabbits would do in the 
face of fierce adult rabbit-politics and a universe that wasn't explicitly 
configured for their comfort?R 
(end)

LOL!  Does the warmth and naivete of Mike offend your worldly-wise machiavillian sensibilities?  And here I thought 
Australians tended to be naive!  

you continue:
If so, perhaps its the ones that don't need the group hug as much that 
are the fiercer rabbits, and don't really give a damn for rabbit politics 
they just grow to see it as funny, and perhaps even to wonder if maybe 
they are slightly foxy, like the politicing older-rabbits seem to be with 
each other, because after all the stakes are very high when one is a 
rabbit. 
(end)

Well I suppose it is the job of the older, wiser and politically connected rabbits to take the more promising young 
ones under their wing and instruct them in the ways of the real world.  And I have a feeling the slightly foxy rabbits 
are either the ones currently engaged in this tussle or the ones who will ultimately replace them after the dust 
clears and the true losers have been declared (must it always be win/lose?).  Just remember that just because you win 
round one doesn't mean you will win rounds two or three!  

THE HEART OF THE MATTER
What bothers me about this WTA board fight is that I feel I may be looking at a future glimpse of what the Society for 
Venturism board of directors may be like as we grow in influence and financial wealth/power.  Supposedly the belief 
that greater funding would be flowing into the WTA & how to spend it was a major part of the ugliness we now witness.  
And over at Alcor they have been known to have a disagreement or two where sometimes in the end the heads roll.

And so I look at my own organization and imagine a time when Ventureville is a thriving cryonicist/immortalist 
community, Physical Immortality magazine is a topflight publication distributed throughout the nation, the Creekside 
lodge is greatly expanded from even what it is now and the revenue is pouring in to fund Venturist projects, and in 
general we are a thriving, respected and extremely financially powerful immortalist organization.  At this point (and 
we could be there within ten years) we will be one of the wealthiest and in some ways most influential of all 
organizations within the movement.  

But I worry that when our leader/founder David Pizer dies and is cryonically suspended that without his very powerful 
& charismatic influence on the board of directors that we will turn on each other (even if everyone is fairly decent 
in motive and means well).  And with huge financial resources at stake the board of directors may fight it out on a 
scale which may make the WTA scuffle seem restrained by comparison.  

I know much has been done (and more will be) so that the organization will carry on successfully after the founder's 
death.  And he hopefully has at least another twenty years of life left (and perhaps will not deanimate if medical 
technology advances fast enough over the next two decades) so things can be as well established and ready as possible 
if he does leave us.

Despite all of our precautions the fallible human element in both law and human interaction may still trip us up.  But 
perhaps we can learn from our mistakes and squabbles and not let them destroy or maim our organization.  I hope so 
because so much is at stake.    

We will see.

Best wishes,

John Grigg
Society for Venturism
             







