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<TITLE>RE: [extropy-chat] Seth, 4 forces and urk</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>We are talking about how the big bang could evolve into the current complicated world and human beings, right?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>So can you use some current concrete examples to explain?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>For example, the final BCs here should be like ??? of now? Is this somewhat like the so-called Intelligent Design?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Is there still the observability problem if the universe can evolve into *current* state?</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Walter.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>----------</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org [<A HREF="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org">mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</A>]On Behalf Of scerir</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:36 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: ExI chat list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seth, 4 forces and urk</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>From: "Hara Ra" </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> 3) Even if we ever determine the relation </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> between the initial BCs and final BCs, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> there is still the problem of observability. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Note each cm^3 of air has 10^19 molecules in it, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and any way of finding out the details will change </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> them beyond recovery. Can you spell 'heisenberg'?</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Not sure I get your point. But even when HUP has </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a physical meaning (that is not always, see *) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>if we really need to know the 'true' state of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a physical system (not just in the trivial case in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>which the physical system is already in an eigenstate) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>we can measure it. The 'weak measurement' technique </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>exploits quantum uncertainty. In this case quantum </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>detectors are so weakly linked to the experiment </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>that any measurement moves the detector's pointer </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>by less than the level of uncertainty. There is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a price to pay for these delicate readings, they </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>are inaccurate. But while this might appear to make </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the whole process pointless, when repeated many </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>times, the average of these weak measurements </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>approximates to the 'true' value of the observable </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to be measured. (But what is the 'urk' in the subject</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>line?).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>s.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>* In general given a pair of non-commuting observables A and B, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>belonging to an Hilbert space H, the quantity delta A delta B </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>can either vanish, or become arbitrarily close to zero, if at least </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>one of the two observables (A or B) is bounded. Suppose B is the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>bounded observable and suppose A possesses a discrete eigenvalue. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>In this case the variance of the observable A becomes null </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>in correspondence of the proper eigenvector associated to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the discrete eigenvalue and the indeterminacy relation assumes </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the form 'delta A delta B = zero' since delta B is always finite </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>for a bounded B. Not to mention here the 'delta E delta t' relation, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>in which 'delta t' is about 'our' clock time and 'delta E' is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>about 'its' energy!</FONT>
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