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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
color=#0000ff size=2>Hara Ra<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [extropy-chat] evolution
again<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>></SPAN>Well, first of all, the selection might be
more subtle, regarding resources between men.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=929324504-29112004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Of
course. How do we ask the right question?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>></SPAN>Many years ago, a female friend
of mine remarked that if "all else were equal, size means something".
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>>{snipped gory details}</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>Here is how
we sharpen this line of inquiry. We are trying to
understand</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>why humans
have this oddball shape with the curiously oversized
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>subsystems
such as genitals, heads and butts (possibly in that
order).</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>Look at
those systems that humans have which are larger
than</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>would be
optimal for maximum survival. It isn't
immediately</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>obvious why
a particular oversized muscle might have negative</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>survival
advantage, but muscles do use energy and must be</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>fed,
requiring the individual to slay and eat more. So a
large</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>muscle has
its survival cost. If it has a balancing survival benefit,
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>then there
is nothing to explain.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>In the
previous discussion, my own puzzlement at our large</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>asses was
partially addressed. They may help us run, which
is</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>surely a
survival benefit. Considering the survival
cost/benefit</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>ratio then,
those systems with the highest ratios would be</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>those
systems most likely to have been developed by</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>mate
selection, not survival selection. Does that make
sense?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>Now the
question becomes: what human subsystems have</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>the highest
survival cost/benefit ratio? For the reasons</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>suggested
last week, it probably isn't our rears, altho the</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>C/B ratio
of those magnificent buns would probably be greater than 1.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>I once
would have </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>argued that the highest ratio was our heads,
for we </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>lose a
lot </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>of heat through </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>those bulbous organs.
Many highly successful</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>organisms
do fine with far less in the old brain case. But
clearly</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>brains are
some good for survival, especially if one must
understand</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>seasonal
cycles for instance.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>The very
highest C/B ratio system for humans might then be
the</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>penis, for
clearly it is far larger than necessary to pass along</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>the genetic
material, as evidenced by the far less well endowed
but</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>anatomically similar chimps. But the cost is also
immediately</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>obvious: in
a pre-technology pre-clothing world, the large penis</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>would be a
clear liability in a fight. Being highly sensitive
and</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>vulnerable,
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>a larger target is not a good thing. Consider
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>the fights </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>you have
personally witnessed. Many of </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>them end with a direct hit
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>south of
the border, do they not? One hit there and that fight
is</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>oooooverrrrr. So the survival
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>cost of a large </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>penis is immediately
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>obvious.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>Does it
then follow that the largest survival cost to benefit</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>ratio in
humans is the penis? If so, would we not
conclude</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>that its
development was driven by mate selection? If
so,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>does it not
follow that if there is introduced some mechanism
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>which
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>can supress the mate selection mechanism (such
as</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>clothing)
would not the size of the penis be eventually driven </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>downward
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>by survival selection? If so, would not this
predict </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>that those
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>human subgroups which clothed themselves first
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>have had
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>more time to reduce those wildly oversized
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>high C/B
ratio </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>systems? And the last to clothe
human</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>subgroups
the least time?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>If I dare
to stretch this notion a little further, it would
apply</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>to *all*
human characteristics that may have been driven to</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>higher than
unity survival cost/benefit ratio. That
predicts</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>that those human subgroups that have developed in
the</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>harsh
northern climates (which would have required clothing</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>earlier)
should have smaller gentals, less of everything in
the</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>way of
things we consider sexy, less of broad </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>shouders and
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>narrow
hips, less in the protruding buttocks department,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>less in
female breasts, generally less overt sexiness.
Those</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>groups
which were shaped by mate selection in milder climates
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>(which
would </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>allow them to clothe themselves later, if
ever) might </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>then
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>have more subsystems driven to higher C/B ratios.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>So those
humans subgroups that came of age in mild</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>climates
might be expected to be sexier. They also</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>get the
last laugh *in a sense* because in modern</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>technological times, *all* humans live in the
mildest</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>of
environments: indoors, with heaters. So they
are</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>not
carrying all the non-necessary and mostly</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>non-sexy
cold climate adaptations.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>On the
other hand, the cold weather human subgroups would </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>have
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>been required to master technology sooner and to
a</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>greater
extent, in order to survive the harsh climate.
So</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>the
cold-climate bulbous heads would have had a *smaller*
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>survival
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>cost/benefit ratio than the same individual in
a</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>mild
climate.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>We are
apparently entering an age when we will be able</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>to design
our own bodies. Perhaps
humankind will eventually</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004>be a
curious </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>combination of sexy mild-climate adapted bodies
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>with</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=929324504-29112004> harsh-climate adapted
brains.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004>spike</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=929324504-29112004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
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