<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Jul 11, 2005, at 9:30 AM, Damien Sullivan wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 09:09:58AM -0400, Bret Kulakovich wrote:</FONT></DIV> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">I would like to posit that we view the lives as equal in value, or we <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">wouldn't be in Iraq in the first place.</FONT></DIV> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">No, the war was sold largely on the grounds of Iraq having WMDs, e.g. on the</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">grounds of Iraq being a threat to us.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>If we really cared about lives we'd be</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">intervening in the Sudan and in Zimbabwe, and funding a lot more foreign aid</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">in clean water and health care.</FONT></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><DIV>and</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On Jul 9, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The distinction between the cold war and the present is that trade with</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the states sponsoring or otherwise supporting terrorism is too</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">lucrative for a cold war strategy of economic embargo, as we employed</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">against the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact. Seing how the coalition</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">against Iraq unravelled through the 90's as the UN, nations and</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">individuals were bribed to corrupt the system, doing the same to Saudi</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Arabia, Iran, Syria, and others would not last long, not unless the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">terrorists really get agressive and attack France, Germany, and Russia</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as well.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Lets look at this as a history lesson, like talking about the crash of the German mark in the early 20th century. It may hurt less if we do it that way. I am trying not to blur any of this. To keep the NPOV as it were.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>This isn't about WMD, and it is not about Oil. It is about social infection. Break out a world map and look at the countries involved. There is a belt tightening from both ends of the Middle East/Persia. What motivates it? Consider - If you project forward 20 years, when there is technological parody between the west and rulers who currently take quiet offense to western civilization, what would happen next? If these rulers are answering directly to God, then they rule without question or consequence, and the people will follow. If those people had freedom of choice and a better quality of life, would they decide not to fight?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I am not trying to propagate anything here, I'm not even saying I am convinced of the above. Just look at the situation, the maps, the parties involved. Is it based in fear? Well sure, to some degree. But saying an insurgence was unexpected? Unadmitted, perhaps, because it would be unpopular. The long road was taken in this instance, from the beginning. People have been wondering why the US didn't plop down the 350k+ from the Gulf War. It's not because we don't have them. It isn't because of Afghanistan. It is long term resource rotation, to season as many soldiers as possible for the future, and to remain capable of having a go at perhaps a 3rd or 4th instance as well.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>There are models that that have 'worked'. Japan, South Korea. Others. Exposure to the west makes western culture propagate. As Mike Lorrey stated in a previous post - no, the west cannot embargo the countries involved because the west is over a barrel both literally and figuratively. But where the west cannot bankrupt these countries financially, they can bankrupt them morally. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The easiest answers just arent the best in this case. Plenty of people want to bang the drum of 'he (Bush) did it for his father' while others say Bush isn't really in control. Others want to comfort themselves with the simplicity of 'no blood for oil' - which appeals to anyone who has ever played Risk or Age of Empires as well. We are an opportunity seeking species regardless of theological inclination. When presented, we will leverage anything we can. We can take your resources, so we will. What these ideas have in common is an immediate horizon, and a simple enough plot for the average R-rated moviegoer. What they lack is projection, rationale and accuracy.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Thoughts? It's Bret with one 't' if its going in your killfile. =)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>]3</DIV></BODY></HTML>