<DIV>Your logic is absolutely impeccable, Bret. No more comedy posts. Just one more observation though: if this war goes on to a worst case conclusion, then we'll have no extropian future-- this is a platitude but it is a relevant platitude. Saying 'give it time' or 'it will work out' is no longer reassuring.</DIV>
<DIV>Optimism is only justified if it is not baseless optimism.<BR><BR><B><I>Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Al, if your comedy peices involve doing parodies of people who you </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>really think are acting like morons, I think that the risk you run in </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>trying to </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>carry that sort of humor off over an internet mailing list </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>especially when your topic of choice seems to be politics should</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>be pretty obvious. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is very little upside to acting like a moron if people can't tell</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>that </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>your acting. I don't know you. I have seen you ask at least</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>some non moronic questions that seemed genuinely oriented towards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>increasing your own and perhaps others understanding of opposing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>views. </FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That might, in my opinion, have been extropic from your standpoint,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>but your questions </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>*seem* to be coming off a pretty low base of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>understanding. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Natasha asks how about taking this off list? I know of at least two </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>intelligent people other than Natasha that would like to see </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>many</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>topics taken off list not because they are averse to the topics </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>because they are averse to the quality of the postings that those</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>topics usually of a loosely political nature tend to attract. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The temptation to censor or to try to silence idiots must be almost</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>overwhelming. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And yet there is a danger in doing so. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>strongest challenges to transhuman worldviews </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>is that they are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>unrealistic, idealistic and show a want of understanding </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>of how politics</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>actually works as a retardant on the possible rates of progress. There</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is a price that has to be paid for having democratic institutions in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>which </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>the ignorant vote too. (For the most part that price is worth </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>paying, for most people). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The strongest challenge that could be made of transhumanists as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a class is that they are massively politically naive and this causes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>them to see the world through rosy coloured glasses where what is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>technologically possible (as they understand it to widely varying</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>degrees of </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>sophistication) is expected to be politically realisable. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>More than the average, transhumans are aspirational about the future</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and so more than most, the transhuman agenda, personally and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>collectively, is subject to political </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>frustration, when others in the world</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>hold the power to shape the common future. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Optimism combined with political naivette makes many transhumanists</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>look like right dills, not when they are considered one at a time, or one</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>conversation at a time, but when their aspirations over years and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>decades (and many transhumans have been in the field that long) don't</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>seem to get any closer to being realised or realisable. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The re-election of the Bush administration after the Bush administration</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>pursued an illegal and unconstitutional policy of going into Iraq is a signal</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>event of the level </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>of intellectual sophistication in the US. That is the level</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of intellectual </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>sophistication, that is the level of human comprehension,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>transhuman </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>aspirations are up against. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Bush administration if frittering away the hard won gains of previous </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>generations of American's and doing more harm to America and its</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>interests through incompetence than any existing enemy (of which their</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>are actually very few) could do it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have two areas of interest. Improving human health and politics. Either</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of these areas could take more of my time than I have to spend and both</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>could benefit for more intelligent input. The health problems are tractable</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>but get slowed down by monkey politics at every turn. The political </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>problems are tractable too but some more monkeys have to get smarter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>first and the only way this is likely to happen that I can see is they need</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to be let to learn the lessons of their mistakes before </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>they will understand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and be receptive to solutions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Bush administration is gone by Jan 2009. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>If they don't fuck things </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>up</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>beyond all recognition by then then the next administration of either</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>flavour, republican or democrat will have the opportunity of learning from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the lexicon of mistakes the Bush administration is building up and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ingraining in recent human history. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't know if I should post this or not, but now that I've spent the time</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to write it that could have been spent doing other things, I am going</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=kerry_prez@yahoo.com href="mailto:kerry_prez@yahoo.com">Al Brooks</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">ExI chat list</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 22, 2005 7:17 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [extropy-chat] (POLITICS) Utility of Protest was :Exhibitionism(no, not THAT kind)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>okay. agreed. i started it, i apologize. but i'd like to do comedy pieces-- if, again, no one objects.<BR><BR><B><I>Natasha Vita-More <<A href="mailto:natasha@natasha.cc">natasha@natasha.cc</A>></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">How about taking this off list? I'm scratching my head because I don't see a relationship to Extropy or transhumanism and don't see how this thread ties into any level of proactive discussion. <BR><BR>Anyone agree?<BR><BR><BR><FONT size=2> <A href="http://www.natasha.cc/">Natasha </A><A href="http://www.natasha.cc/">Vita-More</A> <X-SIGSEP>
<P></X-SIGSEP>
<DL>
<DD>Cultural Strategist, Designer
<DD>Studies of the Future, University of Houston
<DD>President, <A href="http://www.extropy.org/">Extropy Institute</A>
<DD>Founder, <A href="http://www.transhumanist.biz/">Transhumanist Arts & Culture</A> <BR><BR></FONT>
<DD><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times"><I>Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.</I> Alvin Toffler
<DD><I>Random acts of kindness... </I>Anne Herbet<BR><BR></FONT></DD></DL>_______________________________________________<BR>extropy-chat mailing list<BR>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org<BR>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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