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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry some sloppy typing and lack of proofreading
in my reply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I meant a virtual country would need people who
understand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the principles of reciprocality as citizens rather
than people</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>who just happen to think of themselves as
transhumanist</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>because the coupling of rights with
responsibilities is crucial.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There can be no rights given that are not matched
by </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>responsibilities </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>accepted. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Instead of "To harm is done", I meant "No harm is
done".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au href="mailto:bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au">Brett
Paatsch</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=isthatyoujack@icqmail.com
href="mailto:isthatyoujack@icqmail.com">Jack Parkinson</A> ; <A
title=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">ExI chat list</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 11, 2005 10:27
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [extropy-chat] Extropy and
libertarianism - a search formeaning...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jack Parkinson wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> </FONT>... shouldn't the first concern be to draft
a manifesto</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>> of individual liberties which will admit of any kind of
political system</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>> -
but will curb the tendency of elite groups to gather all
resources</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>> and prerogatives to themselves?<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Are you suggesting a tranhumanist bill of
rights? I think there is some</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>merit </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>in such a
suggestion. If someone makes a reasonable first draft</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of it, I'd be interested in checking it out and
maybe giving feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think it is possible to establish virtual
countries on top of the existing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>countries by first getting right the concept of
virtual citizenship. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not personally keen to make the running on a
transhumanist bill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of rights because although I have friends that
think of themselves as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>transhumanists I don't think a virtual country
needs people who understand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the principles of good citizenship
(reciprocosity) more than it needs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>people who just happen to call themselves
transhumanists. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Get the mix of rights and responsibilities right
and there is no logical</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>impassible barrier that I can see to
founding a virtual country using</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>contract law, on top of the legal infrastructure
of existing countries. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Its legally permissible to contract, to form
associations, to trade </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(including </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>internationally) and to </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>minimise tax,
and to share knowledge</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of local </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>opportunities and conditions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> </FONT>Sorry this is such a long initial post! But I
view governments the </DIV>
<DIV>> same way you might view AI - we create them, but we don't</DIV>
<DIV>> neccessarily control them.</DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry this initial post didn't get a response
earlier. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>> A good first step might be to make politicians personally
</DIV>
<DIV>> accountable for their errors...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That's not a bad idea. But you can't have a first
step that is not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>operationalisable. Holding all politicians
as a class accountable for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>their collective </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>errors isn't operationalisable for you or me or indeed </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>any one person. Because </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>they don't operate as a class. They take</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>individual oaths of office </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>and to the extent that they can
individually</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>avoid being held to account </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>for breaking their oath, then of course</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>they will (on average) try to do just
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you want to hold any one politician
accountable and set an example</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of holding accountable to the others you have to
go after the highest</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>profile one. You have to make sure the US
President, the highest </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>profile politician in the world is held
accountable. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is absolutely nothing wrong or immoral in
holding a person </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>accountable for upholding what they have promised
to do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And if it turns out that you or I am
mistaken in thinking that they</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>haven't breached their oath or promise but
we have sought to hold</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>them to account only by lawful, honourable means,
then nothing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is lost. To harm is done. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another area where accountability might be
considered is in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>area of corporations. Are corporations
doing more harm than</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>good in 2005 by allowing human decision makers
inside them </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to decouple anti-social (sometimes) individual
actions from the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>social </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>consequences of those individual actions? I don't
know</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the answer to this. I haven't thought it through
properly but perhaps</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>whatever reasons there were for corporations
historically are no</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>longer as true today as they were when
corporations were </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>first formed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR> </DIV></FONT></FONT>
<P>
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