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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jef Allbright wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jef@jefallbright.net href="mailto:jef@jefallbright.net">Jef
Allbright</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">ExI chat list</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 13, 2005 5:54
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [extropy-chat] A view of
what politics is.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 10/11/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Brett
Paatsch</B> <<A
href="mailto:bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au">bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Jef
Allbright wrote:<BR><BR>> Why should politics be limited to issues of
scarcity?<BR><BR>Because we are built of biological stuff. Selfish genes
that<BR>wanted to replicate.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>Actually, if I
were arguing your point, I would argue at the cultural level, with a legacy of
Malthusian scarcity driving our traditional political approach. But
we're already moving past the assumptions of Malthus, Paul Erlich, Club of
Rome due to the changes in societal choices and increasingly efficient
production accompanying accelerating technology. [Which breed new challenges
along with opportunities, and increasing awareness of the need to develop
innovation/sustainability together, but that's for later
discussion.]<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">To
mortals time matters. Humans are mortals.<BR>If one wants the assistance or
attention of others to pursue <BR>ones needs/wants/desires one usually has
to compete for<BR>it because the others that can help are mortal too.
Their<BR>attention and concentration of others is itself a
limited<BR>resource. We humans can't do much on our own and we
<BR>have evolved to be social and to try to do what we can<BR>to get copies
of our own genes into the next generation.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>I would say you're
still confusing the evolved biological basis for human behavior with the
dynamics of the larger socio-economic system. But we agree that
effective social interaction is key to our survival and
growth.<BR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>By talking of selfish genes I'm probably going down
too far. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>present purposes
at least and indeed perhaps generally.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My inclination is to try to understand human
behavior by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>seeing it connectedness to social animal behaviour
which is </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>what politics must be at its most basic
level. The virtue </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>this approach, if it can be successful, is that it
places the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>political within the sphere of the scientific and
only one </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>meta-model is then necessary. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But lets leave that alone as too low for present
purposes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You say "the dynamics of the larger socio-economic
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>sytem". That is something that is made up of
individual</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>decision making agents.
Humans. Right? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mortal, biological humans, with potentials they
want to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>develop and selves they want to actualise.
All of which</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>most of them perceive they will have to do within
the context</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of some life expectancy and development stereotype
that is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>influenced by culture but is largely based on the
fact that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>they people are biologically animals whose growth
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>development is conditional on getting the resources
they</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>need at each stage of their development in order to
proceed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>on to the next. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">>
Isn't it appropriately called political action when working <BR>>
together to promote development toward increasing<BR>>
abundance...<BR><BR>Maybe. The words are too general for me to
say.</BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>My point was to generalize a
conception of politics, not mired in competitive zero-sum thinking related to
reducing scarcity or authority, but in functionally neutral terms, and open to
cooperative positive-sum thinking related to increasing growth and freedom.
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't think one can steam-brush what
politics essentially is, in order</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to make it nicer and more appealing. It is what it
is. Behavioral</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>epiphenomena arising from individuals competing
with other individuals</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>for mutually desired goods, when goods include the
favour of and finite</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>attention of other individuals. Whether those
individuals be voters, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>funders, </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>consumers,
or even sexual partners or parents with finite time. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Aren't you trying to sort of nice-up politics a
bit? To try to make it nicer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>by defining away unpleasantness?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>I suggested that we think of politics as "social
decision-making applied to groups, expecially with respect to methods of
influence within those processes."<BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm getting stuck with phrase "social
decision-making". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm wondering </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>if it
is </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>an oxymoron.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can see how one can call a meeting and invite
attendees to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>come and discuss </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>things and try to agree. I can see how </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>one</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>might do that online and use new communication
technologies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and new media to do that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But in the end the people that may or may not
choose to go to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the meeting or use the new media are the same
people as </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>existed before. You are just employing another
tactic to get</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>their attention and to win their support.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It seem to me that trying to find new technologies
to use is really</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>like </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>trying to find
ways to be more personally influential in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>finite universe of influence. There is nothing
wrong with that at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>all. Nothing wrong with trying to self empower and
with trying to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>peer group </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>empower. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One can plan a party, build a nest, put on fine
clothes, read</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>poetry, sing songs, or do whatever the heck one can
to *try* to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>attract the interest and support of other persons
or people but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>in the end there is only a finite amount of
other-concentration</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to be had and one IS necessarily competing for
it whenever</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>others want it as well. And others do want
it. They do want</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to grab some of that finite resource, that
attention. That attention</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>which is necessary for getting votes, funding,
or even returned</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>smiles. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That's politics (or part of it). There
is only so much attention</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to go around and individuals that don't get enough
of it don't</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>survive and thrive. </FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>This definition works at all scales, and applies to directly
competitive as well as directly cooperative approaches.<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I
once thought that transhumanisms great offering and political promise
<BR>might have been something along the lines of a bold offering to
the<BR>haves (and have nots) of something they didn't have. More
time.</BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR><BR>My own view is that the best we can do is decide and act
in the present such that we maximize the survival and growth of our subjective
interests. Since my interests include a vision of increasing
opportunities for growth, it follows that I am motivated to promote improved
frameworks of awareness and cooperation to facilitate this vision.
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>You mean "of our subjective interests" collectively? </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>I think it is misguided to hope for more time, given the
environment in which we find ourselves.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree. But I think that the attention grabbing
thing that transhumanism had going for it for a while was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the possibility of giving people including powerful
people that already have a lot of things, more time. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It lost those things and lost the attention
grabbing thing when the wheels came off the Drexlerian</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>nanotech applecart, which is needed to make the
cryonics promise credible. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> With the promise and peril of nanotechnology upon us, most likely
followed by recursively improving AI, but not necessarily in that order, it
appears that we have only a brief window within which to promote the growth of
those human values which work, and thus perhaps improve the odds of living in
a future more of our choosing--before the rules of the game change
drastically.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is away from the issue either of what
politics is, or what you want to define it to be and get agreement on.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The promises and perils you percieve mark you out
as a particular sort of person. A transhuman subcultural insider. But the
subcultures best claims for the attention of the mainstream have not born
sufficient fruit to continue to be credible or particularly attention demanding
of the mainstream. Both the promise and peril of nanotech that you talk of
are intended to be attention grabbers. And for a while they were attention
grabbers. But their attention grabbing power has been lost relative to other
promises and threats that the mainstream feels it is facing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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