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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">ExI chat list</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:55
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [extropy-chat] Social
decision-making</DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 10/14/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Brett
Paatsch</B> wrote:</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff Allbright wrote:</FONT></DIV>
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<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
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<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">I
suggested that we think of politics as "social decision-making
applied to groups, expecially with respect to methods of influence
within those processes."<BR></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm getting stuck with phrase "social
decision-making". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm wondering </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>if it is </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>an
oxymoron.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR><BR>Ah, perhaps this is the crux of the matter.
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That I'm getting stuck, that I'm wondering,
or that social decison-making is an
oxymoron? </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>In an earlier discussion,
Brett stated that competition over scarce resources, especially attention, was
an essential element of politics. Jef suggested that while
"scarcity-thinking" certainly seems to be a common driver of political action,
a more encompassing understanding of politics might be something like <SPAN
class=q><SPAN><SPAN>"social decision-making applied to groups, expecially with
regard to methods of influence within those processes."<BR><BR>"Methods of
influence" includes the necessity of getting others to spend some of their
limited attention on an issue, but the issue need not be one of
scarcity. For example, the issue might be whether the community should
develop an infrastructure providing no-charge wireless net access in public
areas. Such an issue is clearly one of enhancing growth, rather than
alleviating scarcity, although if one really wanted to they could frame it
either way.<BR><BR></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2>So what might
be the disconnect here? Brett has not yet said why he thinks the phrase
may be an oxymoron, so I'll speculate in an attempt to get the discussion back
on track.<BR><BR>My guess is that Brett is thinking that decision-making only
really occurs at the level of the individual human being, and that the concept
of higher level desion-making--decisions emerging at the group level that are
not implicit in the decisions of the individuals--may seem to him
unfounded.<BR><BR>I'm not sure whether Brett is interested in contributing to
this line of thought, or whether he may only be playing his frequent role of
public's advocate, wanting to be fed a tasty transhumanist meme packaged for
popular consumption.<BR><BR>Personally, I see the development of effective
social decision-making as key to our near future, and I'm highly interested in
working together to clarify our thinking as well as building tools and
frameworks to help make it happen.<BR><BR>A lot of it is already happening,
but seductively oriented toward consumer needs. The web itself, google,
wikipedia, collaborative blogging, collaborative tagging such as <A
href="http://del.icio.us">del.icio.us</A>, collaborative music, picture and
video rating and sharing and so on, are all contributing to knowledge at a
higher level than that of any individual human.<BR><BR>What is yet to be
developed is public awareness that (1) greater understanding of the world
around us and how it works, with (2) greater understanding of ourselves and
our values, can be applied to better decision-making that will be increasingly
seen as increasingly moral.<BR><BR>- Jef<BR></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think Jef has done a good job of fairly and
accurately representing my position above. So I want to give him feedback and
credit for that. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And I like the way Jef is thinking. He seems to
have a lot in common with the way Natasha is thinking about politics. So thats
at least two good folk on this list looking at the same important area. I
like that. And I will remember that they have that interest. But I can't
always pick up conversations that require a lot of detail thinking and editting
over email as easily as I could if I was talking to someone face to
face. And I know that no one else can either. We posters to this list live
in different time zones. We have other stuff going on in our lives from time to
time. That means that the conversations about important topics sometimes get cut
off in a way that is not quite like conversations in face to face
space. But it also means that they can potentially be picked up again at a
future date. That is how I feel about this one now. Its a conversation
that I'd like to pick up at a later date. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, slightly on topic, I suspect that is how a lot
of people feel about a lot of "issues" in the world. The see merit in certain
causes. They see people who'se values and attitudes they like and want to
support and get closer to. But they have to make choices about where they spend
their time. And sometimes very good ways to spend</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ones time are not followed up on, and very pleasant
acquaintances aren't developed into friendships, simply because we have to make
choices and respond to our own</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>needs. Needs for food. Needs for money. Needs like
what Maslow talks about in his hierarchy of needs. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Its in that sense of the inevitable contingency of
being a human being that I say that politics is ultimately about a shortage of
resources. When one goes to a meeting or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>posts to a forum like this one there are always
choices about which potentials one chooses to develop. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I've heard political commentators reflect my own
observation that politics is often about which questions, which issues
(to put it in Jef's terms) get to be discussed at all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My interest in this list is not to advocate for the
public, though sometimes I think like that, it is mostly just my interests that
are being reflected by my posts. I do like it when a choice transhuman meme is
served up though. I like the skill in it. I think Jef has served up a bit of a
choice transhuman meme. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with Guilio's comment in another post about
not using the terms transhuman and posthuman, from the standpoint that I imagine
he is opperating from at the time he said it. But people do have a need to
describe clusters of ideas with *some* terminology. I don't consider
myself to be a transhumanist, but there is no denying that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I post to a transhumanist mailing list. I
know that I might be considered to be a transhumanist simply by association and
some of those associations I really don't want.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps this causes me to be too negative
sometimes. If that is so my apologies. If readers think that is so you can tell
me on or offlist and I will at least listen to any</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>criticism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry about the essay here, but I figure anyone can
prune the end of this in Jef's post and reply to Jef's post if they want to and
this is a bit related to Jef's post. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jef, I don't like this microsoft outlook
express way of replying to email with lines down the side its pretty
cumbersome and has meant I've spent less time working your</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>substantive points than I might have because I was
messing about with how to reply to your post. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>