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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Russell,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The only thing “new” about it
is the Corelation between what we already know causally about its physics –
and the phenomenal properties that it also has which we are consciously aware
of. That is why Crick and others call it a “neural correlate”.
Red certainly isn’t new – though the idea that it is something in
our brain – rather than something on a surface that reflects 700 nm light
may be new for some.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is not “incomputable” in
that the information can be abstractly represented or modeled by numbers and so
forth – we can make abstract software that acts like we do –
claiming it has qualia and such – but we really know it is lying and it
must be a much more complex system to enable it to convincingly do such lying.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And any abstract representation of a quale
is not “like” it unless it is being represented by the original
quale. So, in a way, a purely abstract system – like say a system
of abstract numbers – cannot adequately represent, or if you must –
compute it. Although I would rather define computation to include what
our brain does when it represents information with qualia where as a
traditional computer does computation with purely abstract representations
fundamentally based only on arbitrary causal properties of physics.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Does this help?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Perhaps you can make an actual stab at some
definitions and let’s see if I can accept any of them?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brent Allsop<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Russell Wallace<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November 29, 2005
10:26 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">ExI
chat list</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [extropy-chat] Qualia
bet with Eliezer</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 11/29/05, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Brent Allsop</span></b>
<<a href="mailto:allsop@extropy.org">allsop@extropy.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If not Eliezer, is there anyone else that would be willing to take such
a<br>
bet?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
I might go for it if you come up with a definition of "qualia" that I
can work with (your proposed definition doesn't mean anything at all to me - I
couldn't tell you whether I think qualia exist _now_ from it, any more than I
could tell you whether a snark is a boojum).<br>
<br>
Are you relying on new physics for this stuff? If you are, I can come up with a
proposed definition. Or are you saying the mind is incomputable a la Penrose?
If so, I can come up with a definition based on that.<br>
<br>
- Russell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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