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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Robert Bradbury<BR></DIV></FONT>Herb Martin
wrote:<BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">President
Bush has led the freeing of over 60,000,000<BR>human beings. Not
bad for six years. </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>While it is good
that many people are now "free" who were not six years ago, I would offer
this.<SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG>Generally the entire thread is
incredibly tedious and rude to any</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG>who did not sign up for this topic
(including mine), but your post </STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG>is so reasonably
</STRONG></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG>as to warrant a
reply....</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005></SPAN><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>The Bush directly accountable
death toll (to U.S. citizens) will exceed the death toll (to U.S. and foreign
citizens) due to the 911 terrorists sometime in early 2007 [1]. In fact
it is almost certain that the Bush responsible death toll will exceed the 911
death toll by July 4, 2007 (quite a present for the 4th of July...
:-().<BR>Now, one has to ask -- "Is the 'freedom' of 60,000,000 people worth
another ~3000 U.S. lives?"<BR><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>Generally the soldiers who fight, and those of us who have
fought previously, say "Yes".</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005></SPAN><BR>I am not
saying that it is not. One could look at the civil war or perhaps WWII
where they were clearly justified on the basis of "freeing" people.
However that was *not* the case with the war in Afghanistan or the war in
Iraq. They were largely sold on the basis of *potentially* protecting
American lives in the future. <SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>"Sold" is irrelevant -- outcomes are what count but contrary to
popular misconception<BR>the war in Iraq was NOT SOLD STRICTLY on WMD or
fighting terrorism, these were<BR>just the areas where concentration was
focused. <BR><BR>No one ever claimed these were the only reasons and there
was no doubt (at the</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>time) and little rational doubt even now that Saddam (had)
had WMD and would <BR>pursue them at the earliest opportunity -- sanctions were
rapidly disintegrating,</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>and Saddam would soon had been lose from them.<BR><BR>There
was also the issue of the (claimed) deaths of Iraqi citizens DUE to
the</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>sanctions (and of course really due the UN mismanagement of
them due to</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>corruption).</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005></SPAN>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>And IMO, if you
look on balance at the amount of money spent on wars overseas over the last
six years vs. the amount of money being spent on preparing for a "natural"
disaster such as a breakout of the H5N1 virus there is a gross imbalance of
priorities. <BR><BR>Take a step back and look at it from an extropic
perspective -- *how* many of those 60,000,000 now "free" lives would have been
lost had the U.S. not decided to exercise the military
option? <SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></DIV></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>Saddam was killing approximately 100,000 per year so the math is
quite easy<BR>if we just take `ONE TENTH that number. In four years Saddam
would have<BR>murdered (VERY) conservatively another 40,000 which exceeds the
generally<BR>accepts death toll. (And at his actual rate he would have
approach another<BR>one half MILLION.)</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>Most of those deaths also are not attributable to the US as well.
While it is</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>popular to do so, it is wrong to hold the use accountable for
deaths (to Iraqis)</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>by the terrorists and insurgents who target them, or to include
the COMBATANT<BR>deaths in such calculations of "good" verses saving the lives
and freedom of<BR>the innocent Iraqi citizens.<BR><BR>Finally, there is a
question of just how much FREEDOM is worth.<BR><BR>Many (most?) Americans, some
from other countries, will argue that freedom</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>is to be retained even at the cost of life.</FONT></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><FONT size=+0></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial>Many will
back that up with their own lives as our soldiers both current<BR>and former
have done.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005> </SPAN>Could
60,000,000 *DEATHS* have been prevented if the same amount of money and energy
been dedicated to something like world hunger or disease prevention? ([2] is
interesting...). As I calculate it, the war in Iraq has cost us
approximately *8* full years of NIH funding.<BR><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG>Perhaps but there were many other
reasons (at least a half dozen necessary and sufficient
reasons)</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG>for removing Saddam and no one proposed
using the money for any other such program.</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Someone
might offer such a proposal and argue specifically for it (not
hypothetically)<BR>and that would not change the value of freeing so many people
and the possibility of<BR>having this lead to a sea change in Middle East
politics, freedom for the region in </FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>general,
and a development that will allow the Arab world to leave the dark
ages<BR>politically and religiously.</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=left><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005></SPAN><BR>Those kinds
of questions explain why Bill & Melinda Gates are Time Magazine's "Persons
of the Year" and *not* George W. Bush.<BR><BR>And for the record, I was *for*
going into Afghanistan, and to a lesser extent going into Iraq -- but I have
had some time (and more information) that have led me to rethinking my former
perspectives.<SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>And that it was a favorable decision in 2002 cannot be changed by
subsequent<BR>developments in 2005 -- it would always remain the best decision
given the<BR>facts as they were known but that isn't a necessary argument since
it is in<BR>fact reaping freedom for so many.<BR></STRONG></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG></DIV></STRONG></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=313213917-18122005></SPAN><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>Robert<BR><BR>1. This is based on calculations I did back in
2005. But the rate of deaths has not changed significantly since then
and I doubt it will change before 2007 given current trends.<BR>2. <A
href="http://costofwar.com/">http://costofwar.com/</A><SPAN
class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><STRONG> <FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>It isn't about "how many verses the 9/11" -- were it merely revenge
perhaps that</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>would make perverted sense but rather how many against freedom,
both liberty</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>and freedom from attack by Islamo-Fascist or any other brand of
international</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>terrorism.<BR></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>[D-DAY also lost far more US soldiers than did Pearl Harbor so
you can easily</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>see how the above analysis equating Iraq-9/11 causulties is
misapplied.]</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG><BR>Many people overlook that following 9/11, we declared war NOT
just on "Al Qaeda"<BR>but rather on "Terrorists of Internal Scope and the
Countries that aid and harbor</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>them."<BR><BR>Saddam was openly guilty of the latter, and
arguably guilty of support for Al Qaeda</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG>in specific (Zarqawi had already been given refuge in Iraq before
the war, and was</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=313213917-18122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><STRONG> shuttling back and forth with support for Ansar Al
Islam.)</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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