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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Russell Wallace wrote:</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>On 1/30/06, <B class=gmail_sendername>Brett Paatsch</B> <<A
href="mailto:bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au">bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think science, and more fundamentally,
reasoning, and those that practice them *have* done significant good because
some others have also been able to put aside faith and
belief. </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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size=2></FONT><BR>Science yes; I did say outside technical areas.
<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Reasoning is even more important and fundamental
than science because science can't take place without it. I don't think
reasoning is just dismissable as being a technical area. Reasoning
applies to law and philosophy not just science. Law matters
profoundly in my view but law seems to be an area of significant
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>disagreement between you and I. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You say people of any "persuasion". I can be
persuaded by reason if I am willing to question my assumptions
and think about other arguments but how is someone persuaded to faith
?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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size=2></FONT><BR>Usually by being taught it as a child.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Okay, but taught not intellectually using
reason but rather conditioned or indoctrinated. I'd normally use
persuasion to mean intellectual persuasion not persuasion by threat of pain or
threat of withdrawal of essential parental support.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But people of various religion groupings are often
described as being of various persuasion. I wouldn't see much point in say
Attila the Huns' dog is of the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Attila is right "persuasion". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Okay. For me faith (or belief) and reasoning
are almost opposites. For you is faith (or belief) ever
reasoning?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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size=2></FONT><BR>No, faith is belief in the absence of a
reason.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Okay. I know what you mean by
faith. I agree with that as a minimum. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All your above relates to the past as is shown
by your last sentence "WAS motivated by and based on faith". I
asked about IS not WAS.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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size=2></FONT><BR>Okay, fair point. <BR></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Can you offer an example where faith per se IS
CURRENTLY progressive, humansitic, extropic, or in any way a net benefit to
people in its consequences?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial
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size=2></FONT><BR>To the extent that people in today's world believe in doing
good rather than harm (however you define these things), and act on those
beliefs, why do you think they do so? </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not fair. You are answering (or rather not
answering) a question with a question. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You haven't answered my question which I asked
first, then re-asked. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV>Because they've studied history, philosophy, ethics, economics, game
theory and evolutionary psychology in great depth and derived theories that
lead them to the conclusion that this or that is the best way to
behave?<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No. Though some of them
have. [Aside: To varying degrees - I
have]</FONT></DIV>
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>Of course not. It's not
remotely practical for everyone to go through that process before they can
start acting in the real world; </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>True. No argument. But are you
saying that they do that on faith? If so I wish you'd be
direct. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>and the inherent complexity and fuzziness of the subject matter combines
with the nature of human psychology to largely eliminate reason as a driving
force in human affairs anyway. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Reason can only be eliminated as a driving force in
human affairs if it has first gotten to *be* a driving force in human
affairs. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV>Put simply: intellectual study won't convince you to do good or evil, it
will merely give you the tools to justify what you were going to do
anyway.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not merely. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>By not answering the question I asked you are
making it difficult to communicate with you. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>Nor would civilization work
if people would cheat, betray, steal and kill whenever there wasn't a
policeman watching them.<BR><BR>In practice, civilization works because - and
only when - most of the citizens have faith in it and its associated moral
standards.</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT>Now you seem to be using faith as
a synonym for confidence. </FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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size=2></FONT><BR><BR>That is, if you are using "faith" in the general sense
of belief in the absence of evidence. Or do you mean it to refer specifically
to belief in God or the supernatural? (Not commenting on which definition is
better, just checking which one you're using.)<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was trying to find out what *you* meant by
"faith" remember? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You said </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>"I'm not the one who introduced the term
"faith-based thinking"; </FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>I'm happy to just say
"faith".</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It was your comment that <FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>"the same is true among atheists; to
indiscriminately tag all "faith-based thinkers" as the enemy is both untrue and
unproductive." that I entered the thread after. </FONT><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I wondered if you were defending some right of
religious people to be "faith-based thinkers" perhaps because you
were yourself a religious person or if instead your objection was coming
from a </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>different place. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></DIV>
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