<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Russell Wallace wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>On 1/30/06, <B class=gmail_sendername>Brett Paatsch</B> <<A
href="mailto:bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au">bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><SPAN
class=q></SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>By not answering the question I asked you are
making it difficult to communicate with you.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>I was trying to, but maybe I didn't do a good job of it;
I'll try again. <BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><SPAN
class=q></SPAN><SPAN class=q></SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was trying to find out what *you* meant by
"faith" remember? </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>Okay, I'll define it as
belief in the absence of evidence.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Okay. </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I wondered if you were defending
some right of religious people to be "faith-based thinkers" perhaps
because you were yourself a religious person or if instead your
objection was coming from a </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>different
place. </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>Different place; I have no belief in God or the
supernatural. Nor do I suggest that faith can replace reason in science, law
or philosophy. But nor can reason entirely replace faith. Reason can tell you
that B follows from A, but it can't tell you whether to believe A in the first
place; the chain has to start somewhere.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, the chain of reasoning does have to start
somewhere, I agree with that. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't know if it is right or
moral that you should start your chain of reasoning from
beliefs rather than axioms though. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV>I'm not a religious man, but I believe in love and life and laughter. I
believe in beauty and truth and goodness, </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good for you, honestly. What I mean is I
think those are good values. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I live. I can laugh. I haved loved. I
see beauty. I value and pursue truth. Goodness seems good to
me. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But it doesn't seem quite right to me to say that I
*believe* in those things. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now here's something. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I might be able to live more, laugh more, see more
beauty and see more good if like you I believed more. I don't know. You may
be happier than me because you reason from beliefs rather than axioms. You
might not be, but you might be. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>and I believe these things are worth protecting, even though neither I
nor anyone else can prove it; at some point I, like any civilized man, must
resort to belief in the absence of evidence; for people who don't believe in
beauty produce ugliness; people who don't believe in truth produce falsehood;
and people who don't believe in good produce evil.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am trying to get at whether your believing qua
believing is actually anything rather than an artifact of language.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I get that you think (intellectually) and feel
(emotionally) that what you value, life, laughter, beauty, truth, goodness, is
valuable and is worth protecting, so do I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What I am not sure about is whether there is some
essential domain of truth that only the words belief or faith can cover for you.
Or if in holding to believe you are simply clinging to a cosy error.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think most of the things you've identified
as beliefs would be valued as valuable by most people. But I
doubt </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>that *you* would find *values* to be a
satisfactory substitute for beliefs or articles of faith. Or would you?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Do values and beliefs seem to be
different things for you. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't get why you think or feel that you must
"resort" to belief in the absence of evidence. By doing so you seem to turn
values into beliefs and it is not clear to me that in 2006 there is any
advantage in doing that. Whereas it is clear to me (and here I could be wrong)
that believe and faith carries a lot of baggage. Others also value life,
laughter, beauty, truth and goodness as they see it. There are things
which are nearly universally valued by all homo sapiens - and both that that is
so, and what those things are, are things which can yeild to intellectual
inquiry or to study into human beings. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Given a magic button
impossibly disconnected from everything else such that you
might benefit from my pressing on it with more life, laughter, love,
beauty, truth and goodness without any shortfall in those things arising at the
same time elsewhere and I would be happy to press that button for
you. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think you are wrong to hold that those that don't
believe in beauty produce ugliness. Nature doesn't believe in beauty yet there
are sunsets, sunrises, night skies that non-believers like me do find
beautiful. A person that finds beauty in a new and unexpected
experience could not prior to the experience have had a belief in it and
once</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>they have had it it seems to add little to create a
new belief.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The thing that believing seems to give a
person is fraternity with those that also like to talk about what they believe
in. And perhaps power over them if they imprint on one. And as what some
believe in (their words </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>not mine) seem to me and
others to be ugly, false and bad things, so the the fraternity of
believers that will stand by believers against non-believers does not seem to be
a moral one to opt in to. Notwithstanding how cosy it may look
to social creatures to have so much emotional company. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I admit believing looks pretty cosy and comfortable
to me sometimes. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">And
if I were to draw a dividing line in the sands of philosophy and choose one side
to make a stand against the other, I wouldn't draw it between those who believe
in God and those who do not. I would draw it between those who believe in beauty
and truth and goodness - whether or not God is part of their belief system - and
those who do not. </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM>[I don't seem to be able to indent the comment line at the
side so I'll switch to italics]</EM> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM>If you were to draw your dividing line then call
people and invite those who believe in beauty, truth and goodness to chose one
side and those that didn't to choose the other I'd probably choose the other or
equivicate until you deemed that I had because I couldn't say I *believed* in
them. Yet nor do I *believe* in (endorse or affirm) ugliness, falsehood or evil.
But my failure to chose you would apparently placed me in your
opposing camp whereas by mine you've given me a conflated choice. (Aside:
This is perhaps similar to the conflated choice President Bush offers or
demands one makes when he says you are either with us (meaning him) or against
us.)</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM>If you were to invite those who *value* beauty,
truth and goodness to chose a side and those that do not to chose the other I'd
be on the side of those that value them.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Now lets change things a little. If I was looking for people
that could do something about improving the world and I was looking for
practical folk I might use belief in God, or belief in fairies, or belief in
just about anything to sort folk into practical and impractical
categories. The believers are not likely to understand the contingent
nature of the universe. Those that think they </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>can
both have their cake and eat it, best not be given the responsibilities of a
quartermaster or the treasury or the cake they will eat </FONT></EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM>and the treasure they will spend will not be there for
others. In terms of their sentiments the faith-based groups aren't
the enemy but in terms of their practicality they are deadly in large numbers
not just to themselves but to non-believers. </EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">Does
that answer your question? </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2><EM>Perhaps *I* have a hang-up against believing and against
faith and that is making me especially dull to your meaning.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>My question was "can you offer an example where faith per se
IS CURRENTLY progressive, humansitic, extropic, or in any way a net benefit to
people in its consequences?", *I* don't think you did answer
that exactly. Others without my possible hang-ups and aversions to
believing and faith might think you did. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>In talking about what you "believe in" you
*did* make some of your own values clearer and they are values I
can relate to a respect. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>You say above that reason cannot entire replace faith.
Okay but if you believe in something like that "international law is an
existential risk" I wonder if you can be moved away from any of your belief
which I might find to be themselves anti-extropic, by reason. I wonder if
you will allow things *you* have faith in to give ground to reason or if when an
article of faith for you is challenged in order to build a bridge to you your
reasoning will only serve to protect beliefs regardless of whether those belief
ought be protected.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM><EM><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>You seem to be able to defend others who you disagree
with on priniciple sometimes (which I think is promising and likeable) but
I don't know how reliable your adherence to principle can be. I think that
to be effective within the world we live in we have to form hierarchies of
principle, not belief. Its not going to be enough to just have principles when
those principles can conflict. Beliefs have to be fair ground for directing
criticism at if we are to get the hierarchy of principle right.
</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Sorry for the length of my reply. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><EM><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>