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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Samantha wrote:</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>On Jan 28, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR
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<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Russell Wallace wrote:</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=russell.wallace@gmail.com
href="mailto:russell.wallace@gmail.com">Russell Wallace</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">ExI chat list</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 27, 2006 2:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [extropy-chat]
Intelligent Design: I'm not dead yet</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>On 1/27/06, <B
class=gmail_sendername>Samantha Atkins</B> <<A
href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com">sjatkins@mac.com</A>> wrote:
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">How
come? The Crusades and various Israel-Arab conflicts were
paltry<BR>little affairs compared to the major wars of the last
century. The<BR>historical record doesn't make your
case. Now, if we decide to<BR>declare an all out conflict
targeted at one or more major religions, <BR>that would be a dangerous
and foolish thing to do. Let's not go there.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
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size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR>I agree. Most followers of the world's major religions
are not enemies of progress. Yes, a minority of fanatics are; the same is
true among atheists; to indiscriminately tag all "faith-based thinkers" as
the enemy is both untrue and unproductive.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps you are right that "faith-based
thinkers" should not be regarded as the enemy. Perhaps
it is 'faith-based thought', not the 'thinker' that is the root
danger</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>. But the thinker or non-thinker is the
agent or vector. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR
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<DIV>I don't think faith is "the enemy". I think human irrationality in
all its guises is the real danger including simplistic narrow focus on what
"the enemy" is. We don't have time for this
nonsense.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The charcterisation of faith-based groups as "the
enemy" wasn't mine. I adopted the terminology that was being used already in the
thread. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But hey, if you are opposed to irrationality in all
its guises then good for you. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>*Faith-based GROUPS*, this is me using standard
terminology not from this thread but from commentary I've heard in mainstream
media and elsewhere, are not just plain old isolated unorganised aggregations of
irrationality though (heck we can get plenty of that here ;-). Faith-based
groups can be very effective NGOs (non government organisations). This is
acknowledge by Prime </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Minister Blair of the UK,
and a reference was made to faith-based groups by President Bush in his state of
the union speech.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Faith-based groups can be and some are highly
effective political units within democracies. They raise funds, they
lobby, they write letters, they door knock. And they group-think.
They are composed of homo sapiens that can use computers, email, take polls, and
target politicians. And they are committed. And they are funded by churches that
get tax deductable donations. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One thing they are definately not big on though, is
the separation of church from state, or keeping their own faith-based worldviews
out of the courts. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Those that are occassionally inclined to think
politics is what politicians do should only consider what religious activists in
faith-based groups do. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The only atheists that have done significant
harm that I am aware of have only been able to do so because large numbers
of people put faith in them. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
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<DIV>The same is true of all "leaders" and causes, in their effects for
good or ill, whether religious or not.</DIV>
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<DIV>- samantha</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Agreed. But established religions have institutions
associated with them and they are power centres in their own right. They
are establishment with a capital E. If a person wants to go into politics
without going into politics a religious leadership role is probably the vocation
of choice. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett Paatsch</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>