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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you Natasha, It took me a long time
to work up the courage to say something. I’d written quite a
response to Robert, before I noticed your post. I don’t have the
heart to delete it, my manic ego I guess. I hope it, at the very least,
is amusing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Spike and Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you very much for acknowledging me,
I am honestly flattered that you guys gave me a nod as I have no PhD, am
unpublished and hardly know a bucky ball from a basket ball. Robert, your
work has been a great inspiration.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>That said I agree with you both and would
be happy to talk rationally about alien life in and around the universe as long
as Arthur C. Clarke remains above the line below which we can call science fantasy.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But with all humility, let me caution you Robert
regarding Mehan. You are a powerful man toying with a potentially sick
individual. Do not encourage his or her fantasy. What you consider
rational discourse with a reasoning human being about semi rational “</span></font>Raelian
perspectives<font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>” is most likely a one way chat between you
and someone in the throws of a manic episode. I can diagnose clinical
mania in short order as it almost always involves supreme beings and a feeling
of connectedness to an infinite something or another. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Oh dear, I’m afraid that this is
going to be a long post and perhaps a manic rant. I hope it doesn’t
get me blocked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m going to break this up into
several short “essays” to give enough back story to “prove”
my diagnosis of Mehan and share my credentials for making such a diagnosis.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Take this next paragraph as the proper way
to handle a Close Encounter of Whatever Kind and as insight into how my mind
functions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If a ship landed in my yard and LGM’s
stepped out I’d push past their literature and try to find the cable that
dropped the saucer on my roses. Lack of a cable or any significant
burning to the flowers, I’d then grab a hammer and start knocking about
in the ship till I was convinced that nothing said “Intel Inside.”
Then when I discovered a “Flux Capacitor” type thing I would
finally stop and say, “Hey, cool gadget!” Assuming the universal
benevolence of the LGM’s, I’d yank it out and demand from the
nearest “Grey” (they are the tall nice ones), “where the hell
did this come from?” Grey’s don’t talk, they
communicate via telepathy, so I’d ignore the voice inside my head. Then
stepping outside the saucer and sitting in a lawn chair I’d throw pebbles
at the Aliens till I was sure they were solid. Then I’d look down
at the “Flux Capacitor” and make sure it hadn’t morphed
into my bird feeder. Finally, with proof in my hand and aliens sitting on
my deck (they’d be offered beers, though I’ve heard that they
absorb energy like a plant) I’d grab my cell phone and tell my doctor
that I’m having a serious manic episode with full blown visual hallucinations.
Only, until he, Dr. Sugg, drove out of Manhattan and sat in the
back yard with me (and Them) and only after he, Dr. Sugg, agreed
that something “normal” was going on, would I even think of calling
a press conference, much less post to this list. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So the first step with Mehan is to have
his guru, Rael, go through 10 years of psychotherapy and take whatever drugs are
prescribed to him. Then only if Rael’s doctor says that Rael is OK,
would I even consider trying to have a rational “chat” with
Mehan. However, just your single discourse with Mehan has led me to
believe that Mehan is not OK.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All humor aside, I’m quite serious;
it is not nice to play with the mentally ill. Gentlemen, you have been discussing
actual space travel with Pluto probes and nanotubules. 99% of the
population would think you are talking about science fiction. You both
obviously function on the extreme leading edge of humanity’s ability to
reason. You may or may not consider me capable of rational discourse. If
you do think that I am rational then we can discuss how to diagnose mental
illness and then what the ethics are when dealing with the mentally ill. However,
I have been in Mehan’s position and been irrational when talking with
powerful and intelligent people. Let me tell you, when I got my rational
capabilities back I was very embarrassed about the things I said. I
wished that I had not been humored.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’ve been blessed with high reasoning
facilities, proven by IQ scores and the like. And I have honed my rational
skills, proven by advanced degrees and by very smart people calling me smart.
Unfortunately, I have been cursed with a disease. I am bi-polar 1,
require massive amounts of medication to stay rational, and have been
hospitalized once for merely lowering the dose of one of my drugs, Depakote, prescribed
for anti-mania.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>More back story as to why Mehan should be
helped and not humored.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The first movie I ever saw in a theatre
was 2001 space odyssey, then I read Clarke’s book. I devoured science
literature and science fiction till people were sure that I was going to be a
prodigal scientist. Unfortunately, as a teenager, I was abducted by Aliens.
You know the ones… they were depicted in Close Encounters, the little
short guys and the taller fellows… I saw that movie as a pre-teen.
Some very serious sounding literature by the author, Budd Hopkins, reaffirmed
my abduction story. Eventually, the Harvard professor and shrink, John
Mack, claimed that several of his patients had been abducted and he wrote quite
a bit about his “proof.” Oddly, the guy who got the most “fame”
from the 1980’s to early 1990’s “abduction scenario”
stories was the noted horror author, Whitley Strieber. His Communion book
was a best seller. I’ll never forget Strieber on Johnny Carson.
Some very powerful people were creating some very powerful memes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robert, Mehan is reading this chat list
and every time you address him on an equal rational plane all you are doing is
reinforcing some very destructive memes that have infected his unhealthy mind. What
gives me the ability to judge an unhealthy mind?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Starting in 1992, I was literally losing
my mind. That same year, Budd Hopkins, with his fame and his healthy, semi
rational mind, hypnotized me and declared me an abductee. That
certainly didn’t help me move back toward sanity. Somehow I managed
to graduate from NYU with high honors, but as I entered my 20’s my moods
would swing violently and I had horrible “abduction dreams.” Finally,
Steven Smith, a very rational writing professor in my masters program sent me
to a Dr. Clark Sugg and within just a few short sessions he declared me
Bi-polar and prescribed Prozac and Lithium. The dreams stopped
immediately and I fell out of a mild manic state into a wide mood range between
depression and hypomania. Over the years new drugs were developed and my
moods have become managed to within a narrow band where I feel normal anxiety
and sadness and joy and for the first time in my 37 years, love… not
hypersexuality.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robert, do not be a Budd Hopkins to Mehan.
Instead, be a Steven Smith and advise him to seek help. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Hopkins</st1:place></st1:City> didn’t notice that he was
dealing with a faulty mind, Smith did and he literally saved my life.
Obviously Mehan respects you, so do your best to get him help.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Some more evidence to support my claim
that Mehan is manic. According to UFOLOGISTS, “1 out of every 100 humans
has had an abduction experience;” According to doctors, “1
out of every 100 humans is bi-polar.” Until someone has experienced
mania for themselves they are unable to understand what a conversation with
someone experiencing a manic episode is like. Even my doctor gets fooled
and he marvels at the lucidity, charisma and quasi-rationality of the hypomanic
mind right before it goes into a full blown manic episode and can then be declared
insane.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robert, whoever this fellow is that
you are communicating with, you have to realize that you are not dealing with a
rational mind, that this may be someone who has a brain disease that could be
treated. Just look at Mehran’s communication:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>The full answer is of course
in the book, but in short: there is no first cell...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Universe is infinite, it is
infinite in time and it is infinite in space, there is no beginning and there
is no end, Universe always existed and will always exist and most interesting
of all and to answer your question more directly, life always existed in the
universe as well...humans always existed in the universe as well, we just
progress scientifically then we go to other planets and create new life forms
and new civilizations like an intergalactic virus in the universe, our creators
were created the same way, all the way back to an infinity in the past with no
beginning ever...NASA has similar projects to go and implant life on other
planets and so there we go contributing our share in the cycle<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I remember how I felt when I
first read about this, so enjoy the ride! ... <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>there are more amazing
details in the book, more extropic than anything I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>know..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>LOVE<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Mehran<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mehran is charming, kind, full of love and
good nature. Mehran is also hypomanic. <a
href="http://counsellingresource.com/distress/mood-disorders/hypomanic-symptoms.html">http://counsellingresource.com/distress/mood-disorders/hypomanic-symptoms.html</a>
One of the best ways to diagnose someone entering or in hypomania is that
they talk incessantly and breathlessly. Just read Mehran’s words
out loud paying careful attention to the punctuation. Notice all the
grandiosity. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am trying to help Mehran and I have
tried to be humble with this discourse though it is a field that I am an expert
in. Hope I haven’t alienated anyone ;)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>pete<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Robert Bradbury<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 14, 2006
10:43 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">ExI
chat list</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [extropy-chat] Please
don't feed the trolls!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
On 2/14/06, Peter K. Bertine, Jr <<a
href="mailto:pkbertine@hotmail.com">pkbertine@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Thank you BillK !<br>
> <br>
> New to the list, I was wondering how far the discussion was going to go <br>
> before someone stepped in and "moderated."<br>
> <br>
> Until someone introduces an alien to NASA for a debriefing I don't want to
hear another word on the subject.<br>
> <br>
<br>
Peter, until someone comes up with a *really* good explanation for the
"missing mass" you have to admit that our current picture of reality is
quite incomplete. There is a *very* legitimate argument based on
Lineweaver's work that ~70% of the Earth's in our galaxy are *older* than ours
-- some by billions of years. I don't have any axe to grind with
regard to whether our specific solar system (or we in it) might or might not
have been created by aliens. I can make quite valid arguments for
(1) why more advanced civilizations than our probably exist; (2) why they might
not be "here" (the Fermi Paradox) because they migrate to the coldest
parts of the galaxy [1]; and potentially (3) why they might want to create
and/or influence the development of solar systems and/or life within them as
inexpensive sources of experimental information. <br>
<br>
My message earlier this morning pointed out the scientific underpinnings of
Raelian perspectives. The debate regarding those underpinnings is
*still* ongoing -- though I will admit that right now the "Big
Bang"ers have significantly greater throw weight relative to the
"Steady State"ers. I do not feel that discussions related to
that debate should be off-list topics because they relate, in part, to
"What are the limits of extropic capabilities?". As Question #6
in the Matrioshka Brain Paper [2], now almost a decade old, asked " What
do Matrioshka Brains 'think' about?" An immediate follow on to that
question is "How do they go about optimizing such thoughts?"
One perfectly legitimate way is to play "god" with solar systems. <br>
<br>
If you believe that advanced civilizations cannot play "god" with
solar systems then I would like to see some very carefully reasoned arguments
as to precisely why that is the case.<br>
<br>
When discussions cross over into the land of "believe me because I say it
is true" that is when the moderators may want to take action (IMO). <br>
<br>
Robert<br>
<br>
1. Cirkovic, <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Milan</st1:place></st1:City>
M.; Bradbury, Robert J.,<br>
"Galactic Gradients, Postbiological Evolution and the Apparent Failure of
SETI"<br>
<a
href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2005astro.ph..6110C">http://adsabs.harvard.edu/</a><a
href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2005astro.ph..6110C">cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2</a><a
href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2005astro.ph..6110C">
005astro.ph..6110C</a><br>
2. <a
href="http://www.aeiveos.com/%7Ebradbury/MatrioshkaBrains/MatrioshkaBrainsPaper.html">http://www.aeiveos.com/~bradbury/MatrioshkaBrains/MatrioshkaBrainsPaper.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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