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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'>Robert, I have
re-thought my position. I agreed with you out of fear that I would be
moderated off the list by the force of your highly respected position. I
was also <b><i><u><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>star struck</span></u></i></b>
that you responded to me directly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'>Here is the
summary of my very carefully reasoned argument that you challenged me to yesterday:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'>I do not
believe that there are any advanced civilizations playing god with solar systems.
I believe that we must believe that we are alone in the universe until proven
otherwise. I also do not believe in the singularity concept of AI.
I don’t believe that a magic computer will spontaneously come along and
save/destroy us. Both of these “concepts” are well disguised
myths that are at the base of many religions. They are the fuzzy “truths”
taught by cults. As long as Transhumanism associates itself with these “concepts”
it will remain a fringe meme/memeplex and not worthy of acceptance by humanity.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'>As I do with
every alien abduction story I hear, I will debunk the “story”
Robert wrote me this morning. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'>I’ll
take Robert’s own words (in black) and try to understand what is really
going on in his mind:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Peter, until someone comes up with a *really* good explanation for the
"missing mass" you have to admit that our current picture of reality
is quite incomplete. <font color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>Robert,
I do not have to admit reality is incomplete due to the “missing mass”
in the universe. A is A. Until I can probe it, measure it and
repeat it and get others to probe it, measure it and repeat it, with the same
results, then it is far worse than *theory*, it is wishful thinking and nothing
more than the very human urge to find meaning out of randomness </span></font>There
is a *very* legitimate argument based on Lineweaver's work that ~70% of the
Earth's in our galaxy are *older* than ours -- some by billions of years. <font
color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>If there is a 30% chance that if
you open a box it will explode then by your logic you would open the box; I don’t
like those odds. Even if 100% of the earths in our galaxy are billions of
years older than Earth that does not mean there is life on them. We
cannot create life out of matter in our own labs under intelligent control here
on Earth. Why must we think that there is any statistical possibility
that life can randomly happen again if it has only happened once within our
scope of knowledge? If an event occurs once under lab conditions and
doesn’t repeat itself ever again no statistical model can be created. </span></font> I
don't have any axe to grind with regard to whether our specific solar system
(or we in it) might or might not have been created by aliens. <font
color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>What do you really mean in this
sentence?</span></font> <font color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>It
seems to say that you do believe aliens created our species </span></font> I
can make quite valid arguments<font color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>…
then make your arguments. But what is your premise? </span></font> for
(1) why more advanced civilizations than our probably exist; (2) why they might
not be "here" (the Fermi Paradox) because they migrate to the coldest
parts of the galaxy [1]; and potentially (3) why they might want to create and/or
influence the development of solar systems and/or life within them as
inexpensive sources of experimental information. <font color="#3366ff"><span
style='color:#3366FF'>What you state in (3) seems to be your premise to a “valid
argument” that you would make. Is it what you believe? Are we
the creation of an advanced civilization? Why don’t you just say
that? <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
My message earlier this morning pointed out the scientific underpinnings of
Raelian perspectives. <font color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>All
cults/religions/myths have underpinnings in reality. It was my
understanding that cults/religions/myths were debunked by Transhumanists.
Or do you think that the Raelian perspective is valid and needs to have its
scientific underpinnings pointed out.</span></font> The debate regarding
those underpinnings is *still* ongoing -- though I will admit that right now
the "Big Bang"ers have significantly greater throw weight relative to
the "Steady State"ers. I do not feel <font color="#3366ff"><span
style='color:#3366FF'>feel </span></font>that discussions related to that
debate should be off-list topics because they relate, in part, to "What
are the limits of extropic capabilities?" . As Question #6 in
the Matrioshka Brain Paper [2], now almost a decade old <font color="#3366ff"><span
style='color:#3366FF'>does age make it better or more right? The bible is very
old</span></font>, asked " What do Matrioshka Brains 'think'
about?" An immediate follow on to that question is "How do they
go about optimizing such thoughts?" One perfectly legitimate way is
to play "god" with solar systems. <font color="#3366ff"><span
style='color:#3366FF'>I FEEL that I have proven my point. If I replace “question
#6 in the Matrioshka Brain Paper” with “as said in Genesis Chapter
7” it doesn’t change the syntax of the last several
sentences. </span></font><u><font color=fuchsia><span style='color:fuchsia'>It
is one man saying believe me because I say it is true</span></font></u><font
color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>. </span></font><br>
<br>
If you <font color="#33cccc"><span style='color:#33CCCC'>believe</span></font> that
advanced civilizations cannot play "god" with solar systems then I
would like to see some very carefully reasoned arguments as to precisely why
that is the case. <font color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>Don’t
bully me. If I take a fine sounding and good feeling belief as truth and
that belief is wrong then what are we left with? If I cannot prove a
belief then what good is it? It is OK for one man to believe whatever one
man wants. But if that belief cannot be proven then it is a myth. A
myth can be a very thing dangerous to build a rational structure around.
Myths make Gods. In your last sentence you made a “god.” It
is very easy for a “god” to drop the punctuation and become God.
</span></font><br>
<br>
When discussions cross over into the land of "<u><font color=fuchsia><span
style='color:fuchsia'>believe me because I say it is true</span></font></u>"
that is when the moderators may want to take action (IMO). <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color="#3366ff" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#3366FF'>QED<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Robert<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color="#3366ff" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#3366FF'>Pete</span></font><font size=2
color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Courier New";color:#3366FF'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> spike
[mailto:spike66@comcast.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 14, 2006
10:17 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'Peter K. Bertine, Jr'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: My rant</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Not that I know of. We have had
rants in the past, we generally let<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>them pass. spike<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Peter K.
Bertine, Jr [mailto:pkbertine@hotmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 14, 2006
1:30 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'spike'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> My rant</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Spike,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Did I get kicked off the list for my rant?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Robert really pissed me off.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Peter K. Bertine, Jr</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a href="http://www.petebertine.com">www.petebertine.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>"You are to live and to learn to laugh. You are to
learn to listen to the cursed radio music of life and to reverence the spirit
behind it and to laugh at its distortions. So there you are. More will not be
asked of you." <br>
Mozart in <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Steppenwolf</span></i> by Herman
Hesse</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Robert Bradbury<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 14, 2006
10:43 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">ExI
chat list</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [extropy-chat] Please
don't feed the trolls!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
On 2/14/06, Peter K. Bertine, Jr <<a
href="mailto:pkbertine@hotmail.com">pkbertine@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Thank you BillK !<br>
> <br>
> New to the list, I was wondering how far the discussion was going to go <br>
> before someone stepped in and "moderated."<br>
> <br>
> Until someone introduces an alien to NASA for a debriefing I don't want to
hear another word on the subject.<br>
> <br>
<br>
Peter, until someone comes up with a *really* good explanation for the
"missing mass" you have to admit that our current picture of reality
is quite incomplete. There is a *very* legitimate argument based on
Lineweaver's work that ~70% of the Earth's in our galaxy are *older* than ours
-- some by billions of years. I don't have any axe to grind with
regard to whether our specific solar system (or we in it) might or might not
have been created by aliens. I can make quite valid arguments for
(1) why more advanced civilizations than our probably exist; (2) why they might
not be "here" (the Fermi Paradox) because they migrate to the coldest
parts of the galaxy [1]; and potentially (3) why they might want to create
and/or influence the development of solar systems and/or life within them as
inexpensive sources of experimental information. <br>
<br>
My message earlier this morning pointed out the scientific underpinnings of
Raelian perspectives. The debate regarding those underpinnings is
*still* ongoing -- though I will admit that right now the "Big
Bang"ers have significantly greater throw weight relative to the
"Steady State"ers. I do not feel that discussions related to
that debate should be off-list topics because they relate, in part, to
"What are the limits of extropic capabilities?". As Question #6
in the Matrioshka Brain Paper [2], now almost a decade old, asked " What
do Matrioshka Brains 'think' about?" An immediate follow on to that
question is "How do they go about optimizing such thoughts?"
One perfectly legitimate way is to play "god" with solar systems. <br>
<br>
If you believe that advanced civilizations cannot play "god" with
solar systems then I would like to see some very carefully reasoned arguments
as to precisely why that is the case.<br>
<br>
When discussions cross over into the land of "believe me because I say it
is true" that is when the moderators may want to take action (IMO). <br>
<br>
Robert<br>
<br>
1. Cirkovic, <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Milan</st1:place></st1:City>
M.; Bradbury, Robert J.,<br>
"Galactic Gradients, Postbiological Evolution and the Apparent Failure of
SETI"<br>
<a
href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2005astro.ph..6110C">http://adsabs.harvard.edu/</a><a
href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2005astro.ph..6110C">cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2</a><a
href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2005astro.ph..6110C">
005astro.ph..6110C</a><br>
2. <a
href="http://www.aeiveos.com/%7Ebradbury/MatrioshkaBrains/MatrioshkaBrainsPaper.html">http://www.aeiveos.com/~bradbury/MatrioshkaBrains/MatrioshkaBrainsPaper.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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