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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Samantha,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I promise not to be a toady anymore.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>You have a funny concept of Singularity. Please offer your proof
of why a > human AI is impossible. If there is no such proof then
there is no basis for calling such a "myth<u>". <font
color="#33cccc"><span style='color:#33CCCC'>I didn’t use the word
impossible.</span></font> <font color="#33cccc"><span style='color:#33CCCC'>I
said I didn’t believe in a common AI meme</span></font>. <font
color="#33cccc"><span style='color:#33CCCC'>My understanding of an AI
singularity is that when enough computers are hooked up, with enough power,
something magic happens and “life” is created in a process that we
will not understand. By “life” I mean a conscious entity
based on silicon powered by electricity. I place the burden of proof upon
the people trying to create AI. AI is an extraordinary concept, a very
sexy meme, humans love it. Merry Shelly created the first AI meme when she
wrote Frankenstein. The success of her work, a 19 year old girl’s
short novel eclipsing her husband and Lord Byron, is extraordinary and is
proof that there is something in the human psyche that longs for spontaneous life,
the regeneration of Jesus, the rising of the dead. AI is a fantastic
scientific possibility, but I am dubious that it is inevitable. It will
require enormous human effort to make a conscious machine. It is fun to
think that some network of Cray’s or some distant generation of Play Station
will suddenly wake up, think therefore it is, and demand a seat at the UN; but
that is all it is, fun, it’s fiction, it’s The Terminator or War
Games, it’s a myth. </span></font></u></span></font><u><font
size=2 color="#33cccc" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:#33CCCC'><o:p></o:p></span></font></u></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Peter, until
someone comes up with a *really* good explanation for the "missing
mass" you have to admit that our current picture of reality is quite
incomplete. <font color="#3366ff"><span style='color:#3366FF'>Robert, I
do not have to admit reality is incomplete due to the “missing
mass” in the universe. A is A. Until I can probe it, measure
it and repeat it and get others to probe it, measure it and repeat it, with the
same results, then it is far worse than *theory*, it is wishful thinking
and nothing more than the very human urge to find meaning out of randomness </span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Read again. "Our *picture* of reality is incomplete."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><font size=3 color="#33cccc" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#33CCCC'>I have read it again and again and my
point is weak here but what I wanted to do was challenge Robert from the start.
Our picture of a universal model is incomplete. We don’t know if
the universe will expand forever or implode. But “reality” is
a big word. Robert was setting up an argument with me in which I had to
admit in the likelihood of alien civilizations playing god with solar systems, galaxies,
and even us. Taken out of context the sentence is correct if reality
refers to cosmology. But the sentence is the first step to get me to
agree to a long string of sentences that lead up to a “concept”
that I do not believe. In reality we have no evidence of advanced
civilizations playing god with solar systems. I wish we did ! And if
Robert was just chatting with me about how such civilizations might function I
would be honored and we’d have a hell of a conversation. However, I
got into this whole mess with Robert because his memes had become myths to a
poster to this site. Someone who showed evidence of mental instability
was taking what Robert said and using it to support his fantasy. This
person is now going back to his cult and saying that he has been in continuous contact
with Robert and that Robert supports the basis of their religion/cult. I
don’t want Transhumanism to be associated with a religion/cult and I
needed to confront Robert.<o:p></o:p></span></font></u></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><font size=3 color="#33cccc" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#33CCCC'><o:p><span style='text-decoration:none'> </span></o:p></span></font></u></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><font size=3 color="#33cccc" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#33CCCC'><o:p><span style='text-decoration:none'> </span></o:p></span></font></u></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Samantha Atkins<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 15, 2006
12:15 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">ExI
chat list</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [extropy-chat] Robert
believes in god</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Feb 15, 2006, at 5:38 AM, Peter K. Bertine, Jr wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span courier=""><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName">Robert,
I have re-thought my position. I agreed with you out of fear that I would
be moderated off the list by the force of your highly respected position.
I was also <b><i><u><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>star
struck</span></u></i></b> that you responded to me directly.<O:P></O:P></span></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span courier=""><O:P><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</O:P></span>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Now that could well get you moderated off the list!
:-) YUK. Please can the sycophantic crap even if it is sarcasm.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#3366ff" face="Courier New"><span courier=""><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#3366FF'><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName">I
do not believe that there are any advanced civilizations playing god with solar
systems. I believe that we must believe that we are alone in the universe until
proven otherwise. I also do not believe in the singularity concept of
AI. I don’t believe that a magic computer will spontaneously come
along and save/destroy us. Both of these “concepts” are well
disguised myths that are at the base of many religions. They are the
fuzzy “truths” taught by cults. As long as Transhumanism
associates itself with these “concepts” it will remain a fringe
meme/memeplex and not worthy of acceptance by humanity.</span></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>You have a funny concept of Singularity. Please offer your proof
of why a > human AI is impossible. If there is no such proof then
there is no basis for calling such a "myth". <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span courier=""><O:P></O:P></span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Peter, until someone comes up with a *really* good
explanation for the "missing mass" you have to admit that our current
picture of reality is quite incomplete. <font color="#3366ff"><span
style='color:#3366FF'>Robert, I do not have to admit reality is incomplete due
to the “missing mass” in the universe. A is A. Until I
can probe it, measure it and repeat it and get others to probe it, measure it
and repeat it, with the same results, then it is far worse than *theory*,
it is wishful thinking and nothing more than the very human urge to find
meaning out of randomness </span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Read again. "Our *picture* of reality is incomplete."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- samantha<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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