<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On May 19, 2006, at 1:32 PM, jeffrey davis wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Your response is rude, but more important you seem to ignore what I've written. Check out below.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>I did read what you wrote. It specifically mentions replication on the moon. Did you read what I wrote earlier about the context? I don't see where what you have written really makes a case for satisfying the context. Did I miss it or was it not provided?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR> <DIV><SPAN class="gmail_quote">On 5/19/06, <B class="gmail_sendername">Samantha Atkins</B> <<A href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com">sjatkins@mac.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <DIV> <DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><BR> <DIV> <DIV>On May 18, 2006, at 10:39 PM, jeffrey davis wrote:</DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR><BR> <DIV><SPAN class="gmail_quote">On 5/18/06, <B class="gmail_sendername">Samantha Atkins</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com" target="_blank">sjatkins@mac.com</A> > wrote:</SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><BR><BR>It is not irrelevant as the type of technology available determines the costs of such a project and its feasibility. Sufficiently advanced automation to accomplish this task as well as sufficient resources and sustaining technology may require nanotechnology and AI. I think that it will. If you think otherwise then please make your case. <BR><BR>- samantha</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're perhaps familiar with "Advanced automation for space missions"(AASM), a seminal work on self-replication by Freitas et al. sometimes referred to as the 1980 NASA summer study. A quarter century ago Freitas declared self-replication doable, and on the moon no less, with the attendant severe restrictions on human on-site assistance. So it's not really my case but Freitas's. <BR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>Assuming sufficient resources, energy, control and logics that can't be locally replicated without something like MNT, yes? </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No. Who says they can't be "locally replicated" -- your use of "replication" here is totally bogus. Your use of "locally" means you didn't read -- or understand -- what I wrote. I'm talking about a self-replicating machine system HERE ON EARTH with humans at beck and call, as contrasted with the MORE DIFFICULT moon-based operation of AASM. </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The context is "out there" and the moon was specifically mentioned so I don't see what you are shouting about.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are you talking about here? Have you read AASM? There's no indication here that you have, or that if you have you understand what you read. Talk about hand-waving. It makes me think it's not even worth respondoing to someone so dishonest in discussion. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>No, I haven't and your brief description does not make it seem worthwhile to dig it up and do so at this time as what you speak of about AASM does not address the question at hand.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV>That said.... Any project that is to be completed must have sufficient resources,...well duh. And the resources required are easily with human reach. For example a very small fraction of what's been spent on the Iraq war. Do you know what that cost was estimated to be by Freitas in AASM? If you did you would not question the sufficiency of resources. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>When you get around to speaking relevant to the context perhaps we can continue this. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV>Current industrial infrastructure has sufficient everything to do what it does, else it wouldn't successfully complete anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <DIV> <DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Engineering-wise, it's about control systems. Our current industrial system with humans in the loop has 100 percent closure. Replacing the humans requires control systems.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR> </DIV>How sophisticated are these likely to need to be to build infrastructure capable of supporting large numbers of humans in a hostile environment. Where is the case that we have that sophistication remotely in hand or will have with less than major AI advancements? </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><P>What large numbers of humans in what hostile environment? What in the world are you talking about. You're certainly not talking about what I'm talking about. Reducing the human factor in a Self-replicating Machine System (SRMS) means NOT having large numbers of humans participating anywhere. Small numbers, yes, for maintenance and troubleshooting in the early prototyping and shakedown stages. But </P> <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Again, context is large scale off-world self-sustaining human habitat. It appears we are talking at cross purposes despite my continuing efforts to reference the context. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>- samantha</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>