<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Please excuse the top posting, but I just don't feel it
will be an effective use of my time to properly correct the format of the
received Outlook email for proper plain text quoting.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thomas -</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I confess to an overwhelmingly strong faith in determinism,
from which I derive all of my free-will.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I confess to seeing all human social interactions in terms
of such physical constructs as network theory, game theory, and evolutionary
theory, to name just a few of my biases grounded in the
physical.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I'm afraid we don't share enough background in common for
me to know how to proceed effectively with this discussion. Perhaps
someone else on this list will be able to take it forward.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>- Jef</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Thomas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:28 AM<SPAN
class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
class=656583020-28122006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff><snip></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=656583020-28122006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=656583020-28122006> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>Not specifically nor in any predatory
or unethical fashion. If the greater productivity failed to materialize,
the four farmers would suffer the consequences of their self
determined faith in technology. This example seems to rely on determinism. [<A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will</A>] <SPAN
class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western><SPAN
class=656583020-28122006> </SPAN><BR><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><snip></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>Once again I sense a deterministic
bias. I don't deny that the pre physical can be causal. What I
mean by coercion includes what can lead to physical pressure. In my
usage coercion functions in a stochastic process where a person or group has
chosen to use force in an ethically entropic manner with an intention to
dominate the will of any other human (trans or post included) individual.
Whether that "free will" is viewed as an illusion or an impossibly
difficult Markov property, I think, may be irrelevant. I think we came
here (to this list) with a will to progress, improvement and some sense of
moral responsibility. [ <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain</A>]<SPAN
class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><snip></FONT> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=moz-text-html lang=x-western
cite=midB99F3B28ADD2C141B737D735CE9156C302659056@EXVBE012-4.exch012.intermedia.net
type="cite">
<DIV>I feel little attachment to this terminology. I used this to
illustrate the futility of a two level power structure, alternating sadistic
and masochistic roles. <SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=656583020-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><snip></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=656583020-28122006> </SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=moz-text-html lang=x-western
cite=midB99F3B28ADD2C141B737D735CE9156C302659056@EXVBE012-4.exch012.intermedia.net
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">So to the topic at hand, yes, I think that a hierarchical system that
reorganizes at progressively higher levels of complexity and
effectiveness should be seen as good--and it happens to be as
unavoidable as the laws of physics.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>Is physics the topic at hand? I
thought we were discussing the demise of social unilateralism. There's a
big difference between a system that reorganizes by means of decapitations and
mass exterminations and a structure that enables more than it constrains.
[<A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Giddens">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Giddens</A>]<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=moz-text-html lang=x-western
cite=midB99F3B28ADD2C141B737D735CE9156C302659056@EXVBE012-4.exch012.intermedia.net
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Is there conflict? Yes. Conflict between competing methods, with the
more successful tending to persist and the less successful tending to
perish. To "mitigate" such conflict would cause the system to stagnate
and become more likely to eventually succumb to some external threat.
Note that I specifically mentioned that conflict at one level leads to
*cooperation* at a higher level.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>I didn't say mitigate competence.
Let's mitigate bloody methods. Let's compete to do our best, not
our worst. The persistance of the hunter-gatherer mentality does little
to insure that we'll survive, for example, an invasion of hive mind aliens who
just don't understand our "illusion" of free will. <BR><BR>How about a
voluntarist structure that enables the less successful to reorganize more
successfully -- rather than letting them perish. If they couldn't beat
you, they could join you. I suspect social exclusion signals the
collapse of your hierarchy. [ <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_exclusion">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_exclusion</A>]<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=moz-text-html lang=x-western
cite=midB99F3B28ADD2C141B737D735CE9156C302659056@EXVBE012-4.exch012.intermedia.net
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Now here's the part I'm guessing you really won't like:
Will such progress be seen as "good"? Generally yes, because what works
tends to proliferate and what doesn't work tends to die off, and success
is assessed by those remaining in a position to assess.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>I don't regard deterministic
justification of Machiavellian methods as progress. [<A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellian">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellian</A>]<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=moz-text-html lang=x-western
cite=midB99F3B28ADD2C141B737D735CE9156C302659056@EXVBE012-4.exch012.intermedia.net
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Is there coercion? Well, as I said I prefer not to use the word because
ultimately every gradient in power, strength, capability, effectiveness,
etc., can be interpreted as leading to coercion as with the farmers
mentioned earlier.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>If your higher level can't mitigate
violence on a lower level and admits of no constraints on its own lust for
power, then "strength, capability and effectiveness" sound like euphemisms for
an addiction to intimidation. <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=moz-text-html lang=x-western
cite=midB99F3B28ADD2C141B737D735CE9156C302659056@EXVBE012-4.exch012.intermedia.net
type="cite"><PRE wrap=""> But in the case of the farmers, I think it would be
much more realistic to see the situation in terms of a positive-sum game
for any who choose to play.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=moz-text-html lang=x-western>And the low tech farmer could open a
museum, but when the "powerful" played with guns last century -- 180 million
died -- not a very positive sum. [<A
href="http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-1900.htm">http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-1900.htm</A>]<BR><BR>I
agree. That's enough for now.
<BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>