<html>
<body>
At 10:16 AM 10/8/2007, Sergio wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">On Oct 5, 2007, at 12:42 AM,
hkhenson wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">At 01:56 AM 10/4/2007, BillK
wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">On 10/3/07, hkhenson wrote:<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica"><snip><br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica"> Of course even understanding the
problem may not lead to a solution. And<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">it may be that the explanation is too
bitter a pill.<br>
</font><br><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica"> If anyone has a way to get Sam
Harris' attention, please let me know.<br>
</font><br>
</blockquote><font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">He is making the case that
all religions are not equal and the Muslim<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">religion is much more likely to produce
jihadist murderers than other<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">religions.<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">So there is also a specific Muslim
problem to deal with.</font></blockquote><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">I would disagree with him there.
*All* religions can inspire <br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">warriors to jump up and down and yell
"kill, kill." That's the <br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">evolved *function* of religions and if
one has drifted away from its <br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Helvetica">function, it can jolly well swim back
as needed. Remember the crusades!</font></blockquote><br>
I don't think you'll find many jains jumping up and down yelling
"kill, kill". </blockquote><br>
It's a joke from the antiwar song _Alice's Restaurant_. I keep
forgetting there are different cultures on this list and people might not
be familiar with the song even folks from the US (it's been 40
years).<br><br>
<pre>"Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."
And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean,
I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and
gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill,
Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling,
"KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and
down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned
a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."
Didn't feel too good about it.
</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier">
<a href="http://www.arlo.net/" eudora="autourl">http://www.arlo.net/<br>
</a></font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I do think the
specific set of memes found in a given religion, and how seriously (and
literally) hosts take these ideas and the strategies the religion
proposes to enhance its survival or growth, to make a
difference.</blockquote><br>
There are two interacting levels of evolution involved here. The
survival/growth of the religion itself and that of human genes that
create the memetic host.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">You may find jains ganging up to
defend themselves, maybe. </blockquote><br>
I have a memory of a story about a pacifistic religious sect in a major
city which was being seriously abused by other minorities. After
some years of continual abuse, the entire sect shifted overnight from
pacifistic to militant--to the dismay of their persecutors. Perhaps
someone remembers enough detail to pull up the story.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">In the case of islam, though,
there is a level of unprovoked belligerance and constant need to expand
the "house of allah" (until the whole world is converted or
destroyed) that you simply don't find in other creeds.</blockquote><br>
Islam certainly had a violent origin and this is reflected in the
Koran. However, don't forget the Crusades. Unprovoked
belligerence is a human feature, the result of perception of bleak future
conditions. True, it is done in the name of some xenophobic meme
because people are rationalizing creatures more than rational
ones.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I would also venture that a
religion (and certainly some of its offshoots) may lose its evolutionary
function until it's unrecognizable (and even
unrecoverable).</blockquote><br>
That may be true. But I make the case that it doesn't matter,
because people who feel the need to kill neighbors will find *some*
excuse to do it. I.e., when the population wide "gain" is
turned up for the circulation of xenophobic memes, some meme will arise
out of existing memes or just noise to become the rationalizing reason to
kill neighbors.<br><br>
Further, I claim this process is *mechanical,* the result of a behavior
switch every bit as mechanistic as ducks flying south in the
fall.<br><br>
Which is why it is so darned important to understand it if you want to
have control over the switch.<br><br>
Or even to keep from doing really stupid things because of mental
impairment when in "war mode."<br><br>
Keith Henson<br><br>
PS. Nothing from Sam yet.</body>
</html>