<html><body><div>"the universe does not appear to be engineered" - this is not a statement of fact. It is opinion based on very little observation. "The universe is not engineered" would be a fact if you could prove it, but you can't. Yes, I know we have tons and tons of images from telescopes. But in comparison to what is out there we know close to nothing. We don't even know what's under our own ice caps or deep within our own oceans. We have no clue about some of what has been churned back into the earth over the 4.5 billion years it's been here. We are just now starting to grasp some of our own history. We don't even know for sure if Neanderthals bred with ancient H. sapiens. Your "fact" is similar to stating that it is not raining in my country because I see sunshine coming through the cracks in my blinds. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>As to the second fact, "could" does not equal "would". Otherwise it would not require it's own word. "Would" is an assumption based on what little we know of life on our own planet. Going back to the first point, we know so little about our own solar system we can't even safely say that ETs <EM>haven't</EM> been on our planet. It's entirely possible that we are the result of genetic mingling. We're so early in the stages of our intelligence that we barely even know what to look for. Heck, it was just in the last few decades that we even thought life could survive around volcanic vents. Of course, we are out on the fringes of the galaxy. Assuming that any other mind would think like us - which is a stretch considering that most of us don't even think alike - it may simply not be worth the energy to come way out here where we are. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>To say the only choices are that we're first or that there is ALWAYS an impenetratable wall is a large and unnecessary leap. I've seen dozens of explanations from minds that have become so efficient that they hardly use any energy and can survive off star light alone to post singularity beings who have slowed their clocks to 1 cycle every million years to get a better view of the universe. But all that speculation isn't necessary when the entire argument can be shut down by a single possibility: Mind is uncommon. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>"<SPAN class=huge><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the drug store, but that's just peanuts to space." - Douglas Adams</FONT></SPAN></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>-------- Original Message --------<BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] fermi paradox<BR>From: "John K Clark" <jonkc@att.net><BR>Date: Fri, December 07, 2007 10:06 am<BR>To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><BR><BR>Kevin Freels Wrote:<BR><BR>> the paradox is due to a lack of any real information rather than do to<BR>> facts that conflict.<BR><BR>That is just not true, the facts do conflict with the ET theory. It is a<BR>fact that the universe does not appear to be engineered and it is also a<BR>fact that even in the very unlikely event that it is imposable to send space<BR>probes faster than we can right now a civilization could still send<BR>Von Neumann probes to every star in the Galaxy in just 50 million years,<BR>a blink of the eye in other words. And if that had happened you wouldn't<BR>need sophisticated experiments to detect ET, a blind man in a fog bank<BR>would know.<BR><BR>So either we are the first or mind always runs into some sort of<BR>impenetrable wall if it tries to advance beyond a certain point.<BR><BR>John K Clark<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>extropy-chat mailing list<BR><A onclick="Popup.composeWindow('pcompose.php?sendto=extropy-chat%40lists.extropy.org'); return false;" href="http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=reply&folder=INBOX&uid=59121#Compose">extropy-chat<B></B>@lists.extropy.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target=_blank>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</A><BR></div></body></html>