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Date: Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:25 PM<br>Subject: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 57, Issue 8<br>To: <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br><br><br>Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Technology- When it works (A story) (Lee Corbin)<br>
2. Re: "death gives meaning to life" (Stefano Vaj)<br>
3. Re: "death gives meaning to life" (Antonio Marcos)<br>
4. Re: "Death gives meaning to life?" (Thomas)<br>
5. tommy emmanuel (spike)<br>
6. Re: Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars (hkhenson)<br>
7. Re: Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars (Lee Corbin)<br>
8. Re: dark matter (and -- shhhh! -- the F**** p-dox)<br>
(Damien Sullivan)<br>
9. Re: Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars (hkhenson)<br>
10. Re: "death gives meaning to life" (Stefano Vaj)<br>
11. Re: "Death gives meaning to life?" (Stefano Vaj)<br>
12. Re: Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars (Stefano Vaj)<br>
13. Re: "Death gives meaning to life?" (Lee Corbin)<br>
14. Re: "Death gives meaning to life?" (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)<br>
15. Re: "Death gives meaning to life?" (Antonio Marcos)<br>
16. Re: dark matter (and -- shhhh! -- the F**** p-dox) (Dagon Gmail)<br>
17. Re: "Death gives meaning to life?" (Lee Corbin)<br>
18. Re: "death gives meaning to life" (Lee Corbin)<br>
19. Re: tommy emmanuel (Lee Corbin)<br>
20. Re: Tommy Emmanuel (Damien Broderick)<br>
21. 08-Longevity Dividend: Health and Disability (Morris Johnson)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:55:25 -0700<br>
From: "Lee Corbin" <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Technology- When it works (A story)<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <00cf01c8cb0a$2b06b330$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
MB writes<br>
<br>
> Sorta disgusting how easily one can get pregnant when young<br>
> and unmarried and unable to support even oneself... only to be<br>
> sharply constrained in the later efforts when<br>
> one is in a position to have a family.<br>
<br>
Not so surprising, actually. Funny thing is, there have been<br>
*traditions* and instincts going back many thousands of<br>
years concerning when to start families and have children.<br>
<br>
But of course, all the twentieth century people were far too<br>
rational, far too intelligent, and far too creative to listen to<br>
old fuddy-duddy traditions and "animal" instincts. Instead,<br>
they opted to have their cake and eat it too: plenty of sex<br>
with no cost, thanks to the pill.<br>
<br>
Hayek spells it out plainly: while we must investigate<br>
changing our traditions when they no longer seem to be<br>
appropriate, we should do so very cautiously and above all,<br>
we should try to change only one thing at a time. But the<br>
"revolutionary" meme set born in the French Revolution just<br>
doesn't see it that way, and so the price is paid.<br>
<br>
Give parents, teachers, churches, and traditions as much<br>
extra leeway you possibly can. Their traditions did *not* arise<br>
just by chance, and are *not* just old-fashioned fuddy-duddy<br>
nonsense. They are the product of survival evolution, both<br>
cultural and genetic.<br>
<br>
When in doubt, conform. I've made a lot of mistakes in<br>
my life due to plain stubborness, and to how "illogical"<br>
I found so many customs and traditions to be when I<br>
was younger. Of course we must be individuals, and<br>
of course we must question authority. But people should<br>
learn to do so only very cautiously and tentatively.<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:44:38 +0200<br>
From: "Stefano Vaj" <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:580930c20806101044x4a51995ey3497936bedb7b3ed@mail.gmail.com">580930c20806101044x4a51995ey3497936bedb7b3ed@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:30 AM, John K Clark <<a href="mailto:jonkc@bellsouth.net">jonkc@bellsouth.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> If true then death must be the ONLY thing that gives life meaning,<br>
> the one and only thing we should concern ourselves with is death,<br>
> everything else is trivial. And that's about as depressing a<br>
> philosophy as I can imagine!<br>
<br>
Whatever. While one may well like arguing that death does *not* give<br>
meaning to life in one sense or another, all the related arguments are<br>
obviously overkill.<br>
<br>
In fact, why would death stop allegedly giving meaning to life if life<br>
is 40 years long rather than 20? Or 400? Or 40,000?<br>
<br>
Whatever weight the idea might carry with it, it would only have a<br>
relevance if one were faced with a literally *eternal* prospective,<br>
"eternal" as in "continued subjectivity beyond the entropic death of<br>
the universe, whatever may happen in the meantime and afterwards".<br>
<br>
While the subject may have some philosophical appeal to some of us, it<br>
has, strictly speaking, very little to do with any practical choice<br>
about longevist measures. And by far the best approach, IMHO, is to<br>
ridicule those who should like to make such a great fuss upon the<br>
relatively trivial, and time-honoured, policy of attempting to extend<br>
one's life expectancy all other things being equal.<br>
<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:55:30 -0700 (PDT)<br>
From: Antonio Marcos <<a href="mailto:amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br">amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:277344.68316.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com">277344.68316.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
>In fact, why would death stop allegedly giving meaning to life if life<br>
>is 40 years long rather than 20? Or 400? Or 40,000?<br>
<br>
exactly, and since every atom will most likely collapse eventually (as you seem to also point to in your email) you can always say you're NOT immortal =] so the alleged "meaning" would still stay there (mostly :) )<br>
<br>
[]<br>
Marcos.<br>
<br>
--- Em ter, 10/6/08, Stefano Vaj &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bstefano.vaj@gmail.com">lt;stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>> escreveu:<br>
De: Stefano Vaj &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bstefano.vaj@gmail.com">lt;stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
Assunto: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
Para: "ExI chat list" &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bextropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">lt;extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Data: Ter?a-feira, 10 de Junho de 2008, 14:44<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:30 AM, John K Clark &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bjonkc@bellsouth.net">lt;jonkc@bellsouth.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> If true then death must be the ONLY thing that gives life meaning,<br>
> the one and only thing we should concern ourselves with is death,<br>
> everything else is trivial. And that's about as depressing a<br>
> philosophy as I can imagine!<br>
<br>
Whatever. While one may well like arguing that death does *not* give<br>
meaning to life in one sense or another, all the related arguments are<br>
obviously overkill.<br>
<br>
In fact, why would death stop allegedly giving meaning to life if life<br>
is 40 years long rather than 20? Or 400? Or 40,000?<br>
<br>
Whatever weight the idea might carry with it, it would only have a<br>
relevance if one were faced with a literally *eternal* prospective,<br>
"eternal" as in "continued subjectivity beyond the entropic<br>
death of<br>
the universe, whatever may happen in the meantime and afterwards".<br>
<br>
While the subject may have some philosophical appeal to some of us, it<br>
has, strictly speaking, very little to do with any practical choice<br>
about longevist measures. And by far the best approach, IMHO, is to<br>
ridicule those who should like to make such a great fuss upon the<br>
relatively trivial, and time-honoured, policy of attempting to extend<br>
one's life expectancy all other things being equal.<br>
<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:05:56 -0700<br>
From: Thomas <<a href="mailto:thomas@thomasoliver.net">thomas@thomasoliver.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
To: <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:F1BCFF9C-4DC2-462D-A469-17E8579697AD@thomasoliver.net">F1BCFF9C-4DC2-462D-A469-17E8579697AD@thomasoliver.net</a>><br>
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<br>
> From: Damien Broderick <<a href="mailto:thespike@satx.rr.com">thespike@satx.rr.com</a>><br>
> Date: June 9, 2008 11:20:50 PM MST<br>
> To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
> Reply-To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
><br>
><br>
> At 10:51 PM 6/9/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I also agree with you strongly that we really cannot<br>
>> charge the author of this wicked phrase with claiming<br>
>> that death gives the only meaning to life, or even<br>
>> that death gives the primary meaning to life.<br>
><br>
> No, in my experience the way the phrase is trotted out usually<br>
> means exactly that--as one can see from the ancillary claptrap. "If<br>
> there were no death, people would lose interest in everything, grow<br>
> terminally [!!] bored, drift into idle pleasure-seeking, stop<br>
> caring about each other, lose their righteous fear of God's<br>
> punishment," blah blah. It might be true, but we have no basis for<br>
> asserting it, except by analogy with brainless leeches who inherit<br>
> great wealth and ruin themselves; that has some force, but fails to<br>
> take account of other experiences with great wealth, such as Bill<br>
> Gates's, say.<br>
><br>
> But it's also true that a suppressed premise generally goes along<br>
> the lines of "interfering with the divine plan for humans,"<br>
> something which is intrinsically, deontologically naughty but also<br>
> prudentially wrong since the true deep meaning of life is an<br>
> afterlife that can only be attained by dying. The meaning of a<br>
> pupa's existence is the butterfly imago. If that were true, and<br>
> demonstrably so, my attitude would be very different (as it was<br>
> when I was young and more gullible, poor pupa). But note: the<br>
> status of the saved supernatural imago is then purportedly<br>
> *immortal* (in the major faiths, anyway) and hence, one must<br>
> suppose, ex hypothesi eternally *meaningless*. Oh woe! Wouldn't it<br>
> rot your boots!<br>
><br>
> Damien Broderick<br>
<br>
Yes, metamorphosis serves as a poor analogy for death since it<br>
involves self generated change, a quality of life, not death. I<br>
think the death anti-value gets used by predators to survive. If one<br>
survives as a killer, then the meaning of life becomes linked to<br>
death. It occurs to me that replication began as a device for<br>
accommodating death where the individual's indefinite survival seemed<br>
untenable. Then, when cells began sticking together it became a<br>
device for growth and increased individual organism survival.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that an extropian organism, interested in personal<br>
survival might do well to learn to fuel itself without resorting to<br>
death (predation). Years ago ASU developed cell-like machines to<br>
photosynthesize ATP. Then one could distance oneself from the<br>
society of predators who rely on death genes and death memes<br>
(sacrifice). Humans seem to pose the biggest threat to humans and<br>
transhumans.<br>
<br>
A clean, predator free environment might permit one to forego<br>
reproduction (the need for an "after life") and focus effort on auto<br>
evolution and life extension. As I see it, the probability of death<br>
would fall. The value of life would soar and its meaning would<br>
expand as one achieved ever greater beauty and happiness. The<br>
increasingly remote possibility of death might remain providing the<br>
zero reference point for the immense value and deep meaning of life.<br>
<br>
-- Thomas Oliver<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:28:21 -0700<br>
From: "spike" <<a href="mailto:spike66@att.net">spike66@att.net</a>><br>
Subject: [ExI] tommy emmanuel<br>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:200806110455.m5B4t2km026499@andromeda.ziaspace.com">200806110455.m5B4t2km026499@andromeda.ziaspace.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Please pardon my off-topic, but god is with us, he plays a guitar, and ooooh<br>
man this god can play, whooooo. I have never seen the like of this. Does<br>
this cat rage or what?<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ75Ent60ik" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ75Ent60ik</a><br>
<br>
I am astounded at the things the human mind can do.<br>
<br>
spike<br>
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Message: 6<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:29:45 -0700<br>
From: hkhenson <<a href="mailto:hkhenson@rogers.com">hkhenson@rogers.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars<br>
To: Lee Corbin <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>>, ExI chat list<br>
<<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1213162341_7679@s7.cableone.net">1213162341_7679@s7.cableone.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed<br>
<br>
At 08:37 PM 6/9/2008, Lee wrote:<br>
>Keith wrote<br>
> ><br>
> > Overall, nCO2 + 3n+1H2 --> H(CH2)nH + nH2O<br>
> > That's where oil came from in the first place.<br>
><br>
>What I read was that no one has ever succeeded in<br>
>producing one drop of oil by any process that nature<br>
>could have used to produce the vast amounts of<br>
>"fossil fuels" we have found.<br>
<br>
You are misinformed.<br>
<br>
>Do you have some explanation of how nature would<br>
>have gone about using the above equation, or whether<br>
>it's true that so far no one has produced oil in a way<br>
>that is thought to be how nature did it?<br>
<br>
You are probably aware of shale oil. We produce oil from it the same<br>
way nature did other oil deposits, heat it.<br>
<br>
If that particular deposit of natural hydrocarbons were to be buried<br>
deep in the earth where it gets hot, say under a deposit of sand<br>
capped with a layer of limestone, then it would turn into an oil<br>
deposit, a really vast oil deposit. No mystery.<br>
<br>
Keith<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:50:50 -0700<br>
From: "Lee Corbin" <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <00f101c8cb87$9901e1c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=response<br>
<br>
Keith writes<br>
<br>
>>What I read was that no one has ever succeeded in<br>
>>producing one drop of oil by any process that nature<br>
>>could have used to produce the vast amounts of<br>
>>"fossil fuels" we have found.<br>
><br>
> You are misinformed.<br>
<br>
Judging from what you write below, you may have<br>
mistaken my meaning.<br>
<br>
>>Do you have some explanation of how nature would<br>
>>have gone about using the above equation, or whether<br>
>>it's true that so far no one has produced oil in a way<br>
>>that is thought to be how nature did it?<br>
><br>
> You are probably aware of shale oil. We produce oil from it the same way nature did other oil deposits, heat it.<br>
<br>
But did shale oil come from "dinosaurs" :-) or from living<br>
matter? It's customary for everyone to call these "fossil fuels"<br>
isn't it?<br>
<br>
What is at stake here is the abiotic theory of oil. Hmm, now I see<br>
<a href="http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs04/peakoil1.html" target="_blank">http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs04/peakoil1.html</a><br>
which appears to present both sides of the debate.<br>
<br>
< Dave McGowan argues for the abiotic theory, which holds that oil is generated by natural processes in the earth's magma, and he<br>
also argues pointedly that the "fossil" theory has never been proven. The following is long and detailed, but a must-read: ><br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
P.S. Here is McGowan's take (Yes, Damien, I *am* biased)<br>
The modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins is not controversial nor presently a matter of academic<br>
debate. The period of debate about this extensive body of knowledge has been over for approximately two decades (Simakov 1986). The<br>
modern theory is presently applied extensively throughout the former U.S.S.R. as the guiding perspective for petroleum exploration<br>
and development projects. There are presently more than 80 oil and gas fields in the Caspian district alone which were explored and<br>
developed by applying the perspective of the modern theory and which produce from the crystalline basement rock. (Krayushkin,<br>
Chebanenko et al. 1994) Similarly, such exploration in the western Siberia cratonic-rift sedimentary basin has developed 90<br>
petroleum fields of which 80 produce either partly or entirely from the crystalline basement. The exploration and discoveries of the<br>
11 major and 1 giant fields on the northern flank of the Dneiper-Donets basin have already been noted. There are presently deep<br>
drilling exploration projects under way in Azerbaijan, Tatarstan, and Asian Siberia directed to testing potential oil and gas<br>
reservoirs in the crystalline basement. (<a href="http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm</a>)<br>
<br>
It appears that, unbeknownst to Westerners, there have actually been, for quite some time now, two competing theories concerning<br>
the origins of petroleum. One theory claims that oil is an organic 'fossil fuel' deposited in finite quantities near the planet's<br>
surface. The other theory claims that oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth's magma. One theory is backed<br>
by a massive body of research representing fifty years of intense scientific inquiry. The other theory is an unproven relic of the<br>
eighteenth century. One theory anticipates deep oil reserves, refillable oil fields, migratory oil systems, deep sources of<br>
generation, and the spontaneous venting of gas and oil. The other theory has a difficult time explaining any such documented<br>
phenomena.<br>
<br>
So which theory have we in the West, in our infinite wisdom, chosen to embrace? Why, the fundamentally absurd 'Fossil Fuel'<br>
theory, of course -- the same theory that the 'Peak Oil' doomsday warnings are based on.<br>
<br>
I am sorry to report here, by the way, that in doing my homework, I never did come across any of that "hard science" documenting<br>
'Peak Oil' that Mr. Strahl referred to. All the 'Peak Oil' literature that I found, on Ruppert's site and elsewhere, took for<br>
granted that petroleum is a non-renewable 'fossil fuel.' That theory is never questioned, nor is any effort made to validate it. It<br>
is simply taken to be an established scientific fact, which it quite obviously is not.<br>
<br>
So what do Ruppert and his resident experts have to say about all of this? Dale Allen Pfeiffer, identified as the "FTW<br>
Contributing Editor for Energy," has written: "There is some speculation that oil is abiotic in origin -- generally asserting that<br>
oil is formed from magma instead of an organic origin. These ideas are really groundless."<br>
(<a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/04_04_02_oil_recession.html" target="_blank">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/04_04_02_oil_recession.html</a>)<br>
<br>
Here is a question that I have for both Mr. Ruppert and Mr. Pfeiffer: Do you consider it honest, responsible journalism to dismiss<br>
a fifty year body of multi-disciplinary scientific research, conducted by hundreds of the world's most gifted scientists, as "some<br>
speculation"?<br>
<br>
The following is a response by McGowan to a generally hostile email from a Ruppert supporter...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:14:39 -0700<br>
From: Damien Sullivan <<a href="mailto:phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu">phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] dark matter (and -- shhhh! -- the F**** p-dox)<br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20080611061439.GA6796@ofb.net">20080611061439.GA6796@ofb.net</a>><br>
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<br>
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:21:13PM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:<br>
> Here's the deal.<br>
><br>
> The talk about dark matter uses terms like "non-baryonic", and<br>
> otherwise asserts that dark matter is distinctly different from<br>
> regular matter. But I have yet to find any evidence for the<br>
> it-ain't-regular-matter presumption. The entire case, as far as I<br>
> have been able to determine, comes from the fact that the "matter" in<br>
> question is "dark". That, unlike "regular" matter, it can't be seen;<br>
<br>
No, the case is also based on the inferred distribution of the matter,<br>
and resulting lack of normal electromagnetic interactions; also on Big<br>
Bang models of nucleosynthesis.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Matter" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Matter</a><br>
<br>
-xx- Damien X-)<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 9<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:01:51 -0700<br>
From: hkhenson <<a href="mailto:hkhenson@rogers.com">hkhenson@rogers.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars<br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1213171467_6078@s2.cableone.net">1213171467_6078@s2.cableone.net</a>><br>
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<br>
At 10:50 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote:<br>
<br>
snip<br>
<br>
>What is at stake here is the abiotic theory of oil. Hmm, now I see<br>
><a href="http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs04/peakoil1.html" target="_blank">http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs04/peakoil1.html</a><br>
>which appears to present both sides of the debate.<br>
<br>
The theory doesn't matter in the least. Whether the oil was cooked<br>
out of organic deposits from living things (as all indications point<br>
to for the western shale deposits) or it came from some deep dark<br>
crevice in the earth, the important thing is that we are close to or<br>
at the limit of how fast we can pump it.<br>
<br>
Keith<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 10<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:04:16 +0200<br>
From: "Stefano Vaj" <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
To: <a href="mailto:amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br">amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br</a>, "ExI chat list"<br>
<<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:580930c20806110204o6da39d34ycd5a8f116ea7aed3@mail.gmail.com">580930c20806110204o6da39d34ycd5a8f116ea7aed3@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Antonio Marcos <<a href="mailto:amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br">amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> >In fact, why would death stop allegedly giving meaning to life if life<br>
> >is 40 years long rather than 20? Or 400? Or 40,000?<br>
><br>
> exactly, and since every atom will most likely collapse eventually (as you<br>
> seem to also point to in your email) you can always say you're NOT immortal<br>
> =] so the alleged "meaning" would still stay there (mostly :))<br>
><br>
<br>
This is my point. In other terms, I consider mostly pointless to engage<br>
emphatically metaphysical objections on their turf, whenever there is no<br>
need for it, including when they are very debatable in nature.<br>
<br>
Either those who fancy themselves as the "advocates of the dignity of death"<br>
are actually suicidal (i.e., "the sooner, the better"), or they lack a real<br>
argument against transhumanism even with those who may share their views.<br>
<br>
That many actual transhumanists are far from sharing them is an entirely<br>
different issue.<br>
<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
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Message: 11<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:29:13 +0200<br>
From: "Stefano Vaj" <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:580930c20806110229p36d0067eh3413add4200c0611@mail.gmail.com">580930c20806110229p36d0067eh3413add4200c0611@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Thomas <<a href="mailto:thomas@thomasoliver.net">thomas@thomasoliver.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> A clean, predator free environment might permit one to forego reproduction<br>
> (the need for an "after life") and focus effort on auto evolution and life<br>
> extension. As I see it, the probability of death would fall. The value of<br>
> life would soar and its meaning would expand as one achieved ever greater<br>
> beauty and happiness.<br>
<br>
Mmhhh. Actually, what I am mostly interested in is a progressively<br>
growing, and tendentially undefined, *lifespan*. In other terms, the<br>
ineluttability of the fact that as a cat roughly lives 15 years<br>
irrespective of how healthy his life may be and good his veterinarian,<br>
a human being may last 90 or 100 years, but no more than that, and<br>
with severe, unavoidable functional impairments for a substantial<br>
chunk of this duration.<br>
<br>
Then, "probability of death" may depend on factors that remain<br>
entirely within the scope of human self-determination, and I sincerely<br>
doubt that its reduction to zero would be an absolute, unconditional<br>
individual and societal goal. I would be reluctant, say, to forbid<br>
sport, including its extreme version, just because the price for the<br>
challenge and the adrenalyne rush might involve a diminished life<br>
expectancy for its practitioners. And what about exploration,<br>
experiments, expansion in different and possibly hostile environments,<br>
etc. etc.? Nicely, the words for all those activities start with an<br>
"ex", the same of "extropy"... :-)<br>
<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 12<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:41:57 +0200<br>
From: "Stefano Vaj" <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cost of synfuel was Air-powered cars<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:580930c20806110241r2586b45bie61c2ced6e322588@mail.gmail.com">580930c20806110241r2586b45bie61c2ced6e322588@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:01 AM, hkhenson <<a href="mailto:hkhenson@rogers.com">hkhenson@rogers.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> At 10:50 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote:<br>
> The theory doesn't matter in the least. Whether the oil was cooked<br>
> out of organic deposits from living things (as all indications point<br>
> to for the western shale deposits) or it came from some deep dark<br>
> crevice in the earth, the important thing is that we are close to or<br>
> at the limit of how fast we can pump it.<br>
<br>
If I may step in, there is nothing especially mysterious AFAIK in oil<br>
and gas, whatever the origin of the "natural" deposit of the same may<br>
be. We can well enough syntesise both since at least II World War (I<br>
understand that Germany did it quite extensively), for whatever use of<br>
them we may think of, and whenever they may continue making sense as<br>
fuels or energy storage compound.<br>
<br>
The problem is that we need energy to do that, and of course such<br>
energy cannot be taken from... burning some other oil or gas, or even<br>
some alternative fossil fuel that is also limited in nature (say,<br>
coal).<br>
<br>
Thus, we have to profit more extensively and directly from the very<br>
process that has originally produced "natural" oil and gas, namely<br>
nuclear fusion, be it in artificial reactors or by going to space and<br>
getting it from "natural" reactors, i.e., stars. Then you can have all<br>
the oil and gas you like, but without waiting for the geological ages<br>
natural production involves. Not that you would need much, once the<br>
energy is already there.<br>
<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 13<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 05:56:46 -0700<br>
From: "Lee Corbin" <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <012e01c8cbc3$4a5a6b00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
Stefano writes<br>
<br>
> Thomas wrote:<br>
><br>
>> A clean, predator free environment might permit one to forego reproduction<br>
>> (the need for an "after life") and focus effort on auto evolution and life<br>
>> extension.<br>
<br>
Why would one wish to forego reproduction? Besides, this is an<br>
obviously very non-ESS (that is, non Evolutionarily Stable Strategy)<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strategy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strategy</a><br>
<br>
As we are uploaded (probably), or replaced by mind children,<br>
or expand into space to escape the on-going Singularity in the<br>
solar system, I could not in good conscience recommend to<br>
any group of which I was a part a non-ESS.<br>
<br>
> Actually, what I am mostly interested in is a progressively<br>
> growing, and tendentially undefined, *lifespan*.<br>
<br>
Absolutely. Ignoring the ultimately silly "death gives meaning to life"<br>
crowd, you've stated the most important desirable characteristic<br>
of our future lives.<br>
<br>
> Then, "probability of death" may depend on factors that remain<br>
> entirely within the scope of human self-determination, and I sincerely<br>
> doubt that its reduction to zero would be an absolute, unconditional<br>
> individual and societal goal.<br>
<br>
Not at all. Huge numbers of science fiction writers, e.g. Egan, Broderick,<br>
Brin, and so on all the way back to Algis Budry's "Rogue Moon" in 1960,<br>
it's been understood that one will of course have "backups" throughout<br>
any region of space in exact analogy to off-site storage of important<br>
computer data. This is taken entirely for granted, for example, in Greg<br>
Egan's recent short story "Glory".<br>
<br>
> I would be reluctant, say, to forbid sport, including its extreme version,<br>
<br>
You mean, you would be reluctant to get together with your neighbors<br>
and elect a powerful government that would interfere with individual's<br>
decisions concerning things like suicide. Well, I'm glad to hear that.<br>
<br>
> just because the price for the<br>
> challenge and the adrenalyne rush might involve a diminished life<br>
> expectancy for its practitioners. And what about exploration,<br>
> experiments, expansion in different and possibly hostile environments,<br>
> etc. etc.? Nicely, the words for all those activities start with an<br>
> "ex", the same of "extropy"... :-)<br>
<br>
Further, if one eventually somehow incorporates the idea that one<br>
may live around Sol and at the "same time" live around Betelgeuse,<br>
then nothing stops one from contemplating having some versions<br>
of oneself decide to take great risks, though probably with nearby<br>
backups.<br>
<br>
I do not want to enter into another identity debate, but it would be<br>
comforting if the readers of this list at least acknowledged the<br>
intellectual possibility that accidental death can be made arbitrarily<br>
improbable.<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 14<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:54:11 +0200<br>
From: "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" <<a href="mailto:pgptag@gmail.com">pgptag@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:470a3c520806110654h43dbe00cm6c0c6ede7dc9bff0@mail.gmail.com">470a3c520806110654h43dbe00cm6c0c6ede7dc9bff0@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Thomas <<a href="mailto:thomas@thomasoliver.net">thomas@thomasoliver.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> From: Damien Broderick <<a href="mailto:thespike@satx.rr.com">thespike@satx.rr.com</a>><br>
> Date: June 9, 2008 11:20:50 PM MST<br>
> To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
> Reply-To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
><br>
> At 10:51 PM 6/9/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:<br>
><br>
> I also agree with you strongly that we really cannot<br>
> charge the author of this wicked phrase with claiming<br>
> that death gives the only meaning to life, or even<br>
> that death gives the primary meaning to life.<br>
<br>
This "wicked phrase" is an evident nonsense, and the fact that more<br>
than enough people say it only shows that more than enough people and<br>
more than enough stupid, or clueless victims of religious propaganda.<br>
<br>
"Death gives meaning to life" is an evident nonsense because dead<br>
people cannot experience meaning. A similar sentence, "unhappiness<br>
gives meaning to happiness", is understood, by stupid or brainwashed<br>
people, in its literal meaning. But smart a##holes use it as "_your_<br>
unhappiness gives meaning to _my_ happiness", which is the only<br>
logically consistent meaning of these nonsensical statements.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 15<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 07:14:09 -0700 (PDT)<br>
From: Antonio Marcos <<a href="mailto:amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br">amcmr2003@yahoo.com.br</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:903782.84239.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com">903782.84239.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
> which is the only logically consistent meaning of these nonsensical statements.<br>
<br>
You can also think as " the possibility of unhappiness gives meaning to my happiness" and "after Im unahppy, happiness is more happy".<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mark.<br>
<br>
--- Em qua, 11/6/08, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bpgptag@gmail.com">lt;pgptag@gmail.com</a>> escreveu:<br>
De: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bpgptag@gmail.com">lt;pgptag@gmail.com</a>><br>
Assunto: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
Para: "ExI chat list" &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bextropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">lt;extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Data: Quarta-feira, 11 de Junho de 2008, 10:54<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Thomas &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bthomas@thomasoliver.net">lt;thomas@thomasoliver.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> From: Damien Broderick &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bthespike@satx.rr.com">lt;thespike@satx.rr.com</a>><br>
> Date: June 9, 2008 11:20:50 PM MST<br>
> To: ExI chat list &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bextropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">lt;extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
> Reply-To: ExI chat list &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bextropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">lt;extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
><br>
> At 10:51 PM 6/9/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:<br>
><br>
> I also agree with you strongly that we really cannot<br>
> charge the author of this wicked phrase with claiming<br>
> that death gives the only meaning to life, or even<br>
> that death gives the primary meaning to life.<br>
<br>
This "wicked phrase" is an evident nonsense, and the fact that more<br>
than enough people say it only shows that more than enough people and<br>
more than enough stupid, or clueless victims of religious propaganda.<br>
<br>
"Death gives meaning to life" is an evident nonsense because dead<br>
people cannot experience meaning. A similar sentence, "unhappiness<br>
gives meaning to happiness", is understood, by stupid or brainwashed<br>
people, in its literal meaning. But smart a##holes use it as "_your_<br>
unhappiness gives meaning to _my_ happiness", which is the only<br>
logically consistent meaning of these nonsensical statements.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail, o ?nico sem limite de espa?o para armazenamento!<br>
<a href="http://br.mail.yahoo.com/" target="_blank">http://br.mail.yahoo.com/</a><br>
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Message: 16<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:10:19 +0200<br>
From: "Dagon Gmail" <<a href="mailto:dagonweb@gmail.com">dagonweb@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] dark matter (and -- shhhh! -- the F**** p-dox)<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:bf3acbfc0806111210i32a70e0fobbde5afc75aefdfd@mail.gmail.com">bf3acbfc0806111210i32a70e0fobbde5afc75aefdfd@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
So in the early universe there was a lot more matter, then all that<br>
turned sour, changed into dark matter nanoprobium, which then scatters<br>
diffusely into some very fleeting medium (which squares with the odd<br>
fact that heavier colliding galaxies seem to quickly strip the dark<br>
matter envelopes of their less massive dance partners - the<br>
nanoprobium migrates towards the area with more radiation to feed off)<br>
<br>
...yet despite the clear abundance and pervasiveness of dark matter<br>
"nanoprobium" it is inert towards earth's primordial civilization - it<br>
doesn't contact earth, it doesn't suggest a course of action nor does<br>
it attempt to hinder or progress or attack us. If we move into the<br>
nanoprobium stage will there be welcome committee's? I mean there<br>
isn't even a hint, unless you dive headfirst into religious sect<br>
allegories.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/11/08, Damien Sullivan <<a href="mailto:phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu">phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:21:13PM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:<br>
>> Here's the deal.<br>
>><br>
>> The talk about dark matter uses terms like "non-baryonic", and<br>
>> otherwise asserts that dark matter is distinctly different from<br>
>> regular matter. But I have yet to find any evidence for the<br>
>> it-ain't-regular-matter presumption. The entire case, as far as I<br>
>> have been able to determine, comes from the fact that the "matter" in<br>
>> question is "dark". That, unlike "regular" matter, it can't be seen;<br>
><br>
> No, the case is also based on the inferred distribution of the matter,<br>
> and resulting lack of normal electromagnetic interactions; also on Big<br>
> Bang models of nucleosynthesis.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Matter" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Matter</a><br>
><br>
> -xx- Damien X-)<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> extropy-chat mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 17<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:45:48 -0700<br>
From: "Lee Corbin" <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "Death gives meaning to life?"<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <014c01c8cc15$5cf3f310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
Hi Giulio,<br>
<br>
Yes, I know that it's pretty frustrating to ever have to<br>
talk to these types of people, or to read what they write.<br>
<br>
But one's case is always weakened by overstatement.<br>
I'm actually surprised at this from you, of all people.<br>
<br>
> This "wicked phrase" is an evident nonsense, and the fact that more<br>
> than enough people say it only shows that more than enough people and<br>
> more than enough stupid, or clueless victims of religious propaganda.<br>
<br>
First, those people are not stupid.<br>
<br>
Second, they could make an equally vacuous argument saying<br>
that *we* were the ones who were victims of Darwinian brainwashing<br>
and were underestimating the wisdom of tradition.<br>
<br>
Third, quite a number of people who are *not* religious<br>
believe that "death gives meaning to life". I've read articles<br>
by them in the magazine "Free Inquiry".<br>
<br>
> "Death gives meaning to life" is an evident nonsense because dead<br>
> people cannot experience meaning.<br>
<br>
That is not what they *meant* at all! They (generally) do<br>
not claim that dead people have experiences---almost all<br>
of them are talking about the way that the possibility or<br>
certainty of death gives life more meaning *while* we<br>
are alive. So, yes, it's nonsense, but certainly not for the<br>
"reasons" you put forth.<br>
<br>
I can't understand why several people here have suddenly<br>
started sounding a good deal less than rational all of a sudden.<br>
I wonder if it's an aspect of mob psychology. We all want<br>
to refute that utterly wrongheaded statement, but some of<br>
us wish to do so without name-calling and instead by resort<br>
to careful argument.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 18<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:52:36 -0700<br>
From: "Lee Corbin" <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] "death gives meaning to life"<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <015c01c8cc16$118959a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
Damien wrote<br>
<br>
> Lee wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I also agree with you strongly that we really cannot<br>
>> charge the author of this wicked phrase with claiming<br>
>> that death gives the only meaning to life, or even<br>
>> that death gives the primary meaning to life.<br>
><br>
> No, in my experience the way the phrase is trotted out usually<br>
> means exactly that--as one can see from the ancillary claptrap.<br>
<br>
I understand, and I do find your empirical claim quite credible.<br>
<br>
But we can't be in the business of refuting ideas and concepts<br>
because of their "ancillary claptrap".<br>
<br>
And thanks for your subsequent accurate analysis (below).<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
> [The (usually religious) often say]<br>
> "If there were no death, people would lose interest in everything, grow<br>
> terminally [!!] bored, drift into idle pleasure-seeking, stop caring<br>
> about each other, lose their righteous fear of God's punishment,"<br>
> blah blah. It might be true, but we have no basis for asserting it,<br>
> except by analogy with brainless leeches who inherit great wealth and<br>
> ruin themselves; that has some force, but fails to take account of<br>
> other experiences with great wealth, such as Bill Gates's, say.<br>
><br>
> But it's also true that a suppressed premise generally goes along the<br>
> lines of "interfering with the divine plan for humans," something<br>
> which is intrinsically, deontologically naughty but also prudentially<br>
> wrong since the true deep meaning of life is an afterlife that can<br>
> only be attained by dying. The meaning of a pupa's existence is the<br>
> butterfly imago. If that were true, and demonstrably so, my attitude<br>
> would be very different (as it was when I was young and more<br>
> gullible, poor pupa). But note: the status of the saved supernatural<br>
> imago is then purportedly *immortal* (in the major faiths, anyway)<br>
> and hence, one must suppose, ex hypothesi eternally *meaningless*...<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 19<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:57:48 -0700<br>
From: "Lee Corbin" <<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] tommy emmanuel<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <015f01c8cc16$c5d274f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
Spike writes<br>
<br>
> Please pardon my off-topic, but god is with us,<br>
> he plays a guitar, and ooooh man this god can<br>
> play, whooooo. I have never seen the like of<br>
> this. Does this cat rage or what?<br>
<br>
Technically speaking, this cat rages.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ75Ent60ik" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ75Ent60ik</a><br>
<br>
> I am astounded at the things the human mind can do.<br>
<br>
Especially when it's driven and solely focused on<br>
achieving a particular aim. But never underestimate<br>
the genes. Also, *never* underestimate the environment.<br>
<br>
Yet most of all, never underestimate passion.<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 20<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:08:40 -0500<br>
From: Damien Broderick <<a href="mailto:thespike@satx.rr.com">thespike@satx.rr.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Tommy Emmanuel<br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:7.0.1.0.2.20080611180758.0244b9e8@satx.rr.com">7.0.1.0.2.20080611180758.0244b9e8@satx.rr.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Another fine Australian! :)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 21<br>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:24:42 -0700<br>
From: "Morris Johnson" <<a href="mailto:mfj.eav@gmail.com">mfj.eav@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: [ExI] 08-Longevity Dividend: Health and Disability<br>
To: "ExI chat list" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:61c8738e0806111624r1c174fc1yd0c567599c4b15db@mail.gmail.com">61c8738e0806111624r1c174fc1yd0c567599c4b15db@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Health Canada and the FDA argue that aging is not a disease but a natural,<br>
unstoppable, inevitable process ; I would argue the middle ground, that<br>
aging is a progressive biological disability worthy of more than<br>
palliation". "Oh dad you are one sick puppy?everybody since the<br>
dawn of civilization<br>
until the 20th century who ever claimed there was a cure for aging has one<br>
thing in common, they are dead. "Putting Humpty Dumpty back together again<br>
" won't cure aging" Well kids, for over a decade I have been mentored by<br>
fellow members of The *World Transhumanist Association* , an international<br>
nonprofit membership organization which advocates the ethical use of<br>
technology to expand human capacities (<br>
<a href="http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/index/" target="_blank">http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/index/</a> ) . WTA supports the<br>
development of and access to new technologies that enable everyone to enjoy<br>
*better minds, better bodies* and *better lives*. In other words, WTA wants<br>
people to be *better than well. From what I have learned I think there is<br>
good reason to be optimistic about the future.<br>
<a href="http://www.wfs.org/MArch-April08/WF2008_preliminary.pdf*" target="_blank">http://www.wfs.org/MArch-April08/WF2008_preliminary.pdf*</a><br>
<br>
Idiot-Savants show the computational feats a mind can accomplish when its<br>
structures are organized in novel ways. (<br>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/05/07/miraculous.memory/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/05/07/miraculous.memory/index.html</a><br>
).<br>
Breaking the communications barrier for autistic brains will bring<br>
happiness and purpose to imprisoned personalities. Every technology<br>
designed to make life indistinguishable from normal for the disabled can be<br>
adapted to enhance the abilities of the able bodied. For example scientists<br>
pushing themselves harder to be smarter are now major consumers of ritalan<br>
a drug popularized for hyperactive kids.<br>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2006/07/07/heinbaugh.blind.reader.affl" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2006/07/07/heinbaugh.blind.reader.affl</a><br>
, <a href="http://www.knfbreader.com/" target="_blank">http://www.knfbreader.com/</a> document the dividend digital technology is<br>
now able to provide to blind persons.<br>
<br>
Disabled persons at this stage of technology might resemble movie cyborgs<br>
because the mechanical and electronic devices are clunky; but they do work.<br>
Raymond Kurzweil's "universal language translator" device and software and<br>
( <a href="http://www.physorg.com/news130152277.html" target="_blank">http://www.physorg.com/news130152277.html</a> ) a baseball cap wired to allow<br>
EEG to control household electronics devices , for physically disabled<br>
individuals, for home care for the elderly, medical monitoring, and exercise<br>
training are disjoint technologies that are breaking new ground (<br>
<a href="http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2008/matsuoka" target="_blank">http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2008/matsuoka</a>) . Oscar<br>
Pisorius (<br>
<a href="http://womensbioethics.blogspot.com/2008/05/bionic-athletes-stepping-out-of-debate.html" target="_blank">http://womensbioethics.blogspot.com/2008/05/bionic-athletes-stepping-out-of-debate.html</a><br>
) made able bodied athletes feel disadvantaged, like he did before his new<br>
legs. (<a href="http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20080504/" target="_blank">http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cascio20080504/</a> ).<br>
<br>
One may think of disability as a critical catastrophic fault supported by<br>
long creeping degenerative processes.<br>
<a href="http://www.gsexperience.com/gseblog.html" target="_blank">http://www.gsexperience.com/gseblog.html</a> and<br>
<a href="http://www.gsexperience.com/archive/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.gsexperience.com/archive/index.html</a> describe a potential<br>
mechanism for a systemic disease (spalting) which may develop in humans who<br>
survive well beyond what we consider old and pose monumental new health<br>
challenges. Fortunately large scale Anti-Aging Research funders are<br>
popping up in every country. Example ( <a href="http://www.bg-rf.org.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.bg-rf.org.uk/</a> ) The<br>
Biogerontology Research Foundation (BGRF) understands that the current<br>
scientific understanding of the ageing process is not yet sufficiently<br>
exploited to produce effective commercial medical interventions. BGRF<br>
funded research is building on the body of knowledge about how ageing<br>
happens, and develop biotechnological interventions to prevent or remediate<br>
the molecular and cellular deficits which accumulate with age and which<br>
underlie the ill-health of old age. Addressing ageing damage at this most<br>
fundamental level provides an important opportunity to produce the<br>
effective, lasting treatments for the diseases and disabilities of ageing<br>
that are required to improve quality of life in the elderly. BDRF addresses<br>
both the symptoms of<br>
age-related diseases and the mechanisms of those diseases. USA Lawmakers may<br>
07, 2008 introduced legislation designed to speed the development of new,<br>
safer therapies for brain and nervous system disorders and injuries, which<br>
affect an estimated 100 million Americans and costs an estimated $1.3<br>
trillion annually to treat.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=legislation-introduced-to" target="_blank">http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=legislation-introduced-to</a> According<br>
to <a href="http://www.Chronicdiseaseimpact.com" target="_blank">http://www.Chronicdiseaseimpact.com</a><<a href="http://www.chronicdiseaseimpact.com/" target="_blank">http://www.chronicdiseaseimpact.com/</a>>forward<br>
planning to eliminate future disability can have a significant<br>
payback. The difference in 2050 USA GDP for eliminating disability at all<br>
ages is projected to be 5.668 Trillion (17.6% of 2050 GDP) per annum.<br>
<br>
Biomarkers may soon predict disabling diseases like alzheimers before even<br>
the sufferer is aware of it.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/20783/?nlid=1079&a=f" target="_blank">http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/20783/?nlid=1079&a=f</a> Raymond<br>
Kurzweil<br>
<br>
( <a href="http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=1" target="_blank">http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=1</a> )views the body as a<br>
complex software program coded as DNA.. It's the millions of feedback loops<br>
from all the subroutines and derivative epigenetic material that make us<br>
what we are as much as the mere 100K "Kernel" of "source code " within our<br>
genes Ray believes that the convergence of nano-cognitive<br>
biological-information (NCBI) technology into a new "singularity" technology<br>
and its commercialization is about 10-20 years away.<br>
<br>
Feb 21, 1963 John F. Kennedy said "It is not enough for a great nation to<br>
have added new years to life. Our objective must also be to add new life to<br>
those years". To put myself at risk of being partisan , we need to repeat<br>
the pledge to "put a man on the moon before the end of the decade" in the<br>
form of a new pledge " to end physical and mental disability for the average<br>
global citizen before 2025". Governments around the world must put<br>
pro-life ahead of pro-death and lead by consorting with technologists and<br>
futurists and not by fashioning "Garbage in , garbage out" health policy<br>
created and implemented by permission from "Idiot-Savant" pollsters and<br>
"spin doctors". Don't laugh that's how it works.<br>
<br>
<br>
Harrison Ford at the end of Indiana Jones saga (4) says "A prize greater<br>
than a city of Gold is knowledge". As we prevent disability we enhance the<br>
wisdom of old age to become a true asset.<br>
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/health/research/20brai.html?_r=1&oref=slogin" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/health/research/20brai.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</a><br>
<br>
<<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/health/research/20brai.html?_r=1&oref=slogin" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/health/research/20brai.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</a>><br>
.<br>
You may send your feedback attention "Pharmer Mo" at<br>
<a href="mailto:extropian.pharmer@gmail.com">extropian.pharmer@gmail.com</a><br>
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</div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.<br>Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.<br>306-447-4944<br>701-240-9411<br>Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan<br>Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals<br>
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<a href="mailto:extropian.pharmer@gmail.com">extropian.pharmer@gmail.com</a><br><br>Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"<br>-Francis Fukuyama,<br>June 2005