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<br>
Natasha,<br>
<br>
Thanks for this feedback. And I in no way was dissing the great people
that have been doing the superhuman work of cooperating and
attempting to organize Transhumanists and how well some of these people
have actually worked together despite any differences. Everyone knows
trying to organize
people that want nothing
other than to "run away screaming" from any kind of social cooperation,
in the past, has always been a thankless impossible task akin to
'herding cats'.<br>
<br>
Lee Corbin asked:<br>
<<<<br>
<pre wrap="">"Why are we so ineffective?" is a very good question. Of course, it
should be placed in some perspective such as "compared to what?
compared to whom?".</pre>
>>><br>
<br>
Compared to the tens of millions of very well organized people that
support the LDS prophet, and the billions of well organized catholics
that support the Pope...and so on. These few popes and prophets
dictating what all the youth are to be taught in Sunday School and what
the masses will here every week in church are who has all the moral
power. All this while Transhumanists either
fracture into ever smaller organizations heatedly bickering over
trivial differences, or just "running away screaming" from doing
anything to try to cooperate and make a difference.<br>
<br>
Because of all this well organized influence by the popes and prophets,
consider what camp most
of the herds are in on topics such as these:<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/50">http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/50</a><br>
<br>
The greatest idea in the world is completely useless if only one person
knows about it. Without organization and cooperation you have
nothing. Traditionally, the most effective organization structure has
been a the hierarchy. Having a "God' at the top of a hierarchy lends
nicely to such an idea, so why do you think society tends to believe in
such an absurd and faithless idea, like there is a God out there hiding
from us?<br>
<br>
But, is a hierarchy really the best way to organize? There are so many
obvious problems with a hierarchy. Like they are terrible bottlenecks
since there is no way the guy at the top can manage all issues, let
alone understand the infinite subtleties of all issues. Even if the
guy at the top did have the ability to literally talk with God, there
would still be a terrible bottleneck issues attempting to help and
direct all of society. And this is to say nothing of the
corruptibility of such hierarchical leaderships once they are
established. These problems are the only real reason so many
intelligent people don't like 'organized religion'<br>
<br>
But, obviously, the way of the hierarchy is starting to wain, primarily
because of our improving ability to communicate. Already, the printing
press has enabled us to at least implement crude voting mechanism, and
crude slightly less hierarchical 'separation of power' type
organizational structures that has been a huge social step forward.
But, we have long way to go, especially when it comes to specification
and direction of 'moral' or 'religious' issues.<br>
<br>
I believe morals should be based on what people really want, and that
the more diversity of want the better as we seek to get all people
anything they could possibly want. If this is true, then all moral
authority should be based on concise and quantitative measures of what
it is people want; especially all the people at the bottom in grass
roots ways, as apposed to some guy at the top who thinks he knows what
the masses want better than they do. If you think about it, then, the
only thing holding us back, the only thing empowering the hierarchies,
is our in
ability to communicate, concisely and quantitatively just what it is
the masses want. For if you know, concisely and quantitatively, what
the masses truly want, real time, and the leader at the top is pushing
for something he wants instead, then shouldn't he be thrown out on his
ass?<br>
<br>
All transhumanists seem to faithlessly accept the current sorry
situation where only the popes and prophets have any moral or religious
influence on society, and we have no ability to organize in any
effective way. As if there is nothing we can do to make anything
better. But is this truly the case? In fact I think now is the final
days of the moral damage these hierarchical religions are doing to
society. Once we can know concisely and quantitatively what everyone
wants, then we will finally have no more need for such hierarchies.<br>
<br>
Imagine what could happen if we got several thousand Transhumanists to
indicate concisely and quantitatively what they believe on the above
canonized topics. Then imagine the herds attempting to keep up by
attempting to
go viral, and by creating their own camps to defend what the popes and
prophets are teaching against what is so obviously true and rational.
Certainly, as the popes and prophets see this ability to communicate
taking away their moral power, as they watch the members in their
hierarchies start to diminish, they will be tempted to advise their
flocks to not participate right? But of course, this is precisely what
we want. Any such evil or refusal to 'play' with everyone together
should have
no moral influence over society.<br>
<br>
And the majority of sheepish people, the ones giving all the power to
the popes and prophets will obviously not be interested in
playing right? They don't want to have to think about things, they
just want to "follow the prophet". This is why so many sheepish
people haven't even thought about the above canonized isseus. And this
is what is killing us, morally, today. But, in todays dynamic,
intelligent, and informed world, don't you think this will tend to
lead to
their demise?<br>
<br>
If you ask me, the next big thing in the world is not going to be just
technological. It is going to finally be using these communication
technologies to do something powerfully social. In fact you can see
this exploding, right now, before our eyes. The primary enabling
technology will finally be something that enables the masses to
communicate, concisely and quantitatively, and in real time, precisely
what it is they all want, value, and believe.<br>
<br>
And once you have that, and can apply such to reputations in
quantitative ways, then suddenly you don't need any more hierarchical
police states and restricting laws. All you have to do is set up
reputation systems, where the masses can efficiently, concisely and
quantitatively communicate the reputation of everything, in real time,
and then suddenly it becomes possible to simply ignore all the spam and
scam.<br>
<br>
<br>
Lee also mentioned other problems like:<br>
<<<<br>
<pre wrap="">Finishing Usually Requires some very Unpleasant Work</pre>
>>><br>
<br>
But that is the glory of a wiki system. It is never finished. The
masses just occasionally visit a page, and if they have a quick idea of
how to improve things, they do so. And things just get better, more
concise, while the best most true camps, as determined by your
preferred sorting / valuing algorithm, just continue to grow in easy,
fun, social, competitive ways - all together - the more diversity the
better. It can
be set up so the diversity drives everyone forward, instead of ripping
everyone apart. And it's not that hard to indicate just what it is you
want, if there is already a camp close to what it is you do want.<br>
<br>
Also, Natasha, I would really like to know, concisely, and
quantitatively, which things you do not agree with. And it would be
nice to know what everyone else that thinks differently believes on all
this or how we can give the power back to the intelligent masses. Just
saying you
disagree with some things, or just 'running away screaming' doesn't
help any of us to know what you disagree
with. I think the more of any of this kind of disagreement there is,
the stronger it can make us all, if it can all be concisely stated and
quantitatively measured in real time.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Natasha Vita-More wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:00b401c8d085$ee48b7f0$0201a8c0@natasha39y28ni"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">Brent
Allsop</span></font></b><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">
wrote:</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><u1:p><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></u1:p><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3">We
are also frustrated at the terrible way progressive, should be leading
people,
tend to always live by "my way or the highway" and their tendency to
always "run away screaming" from any kind of cooperative and social
effort to help push societies still primitive herd based morals
forward.
Transhumanists, as proven by their repeated failures at any type of
organization and cooperation, or ability to work together, are an
extreme
example of this. We are tired of all this, and how such leaves the
masses
to be controlled by the faithless fear and war mongering bastards at
the top
that think they know what is better for people at the bottom than they
do. It's time for intelligent people to finally do the co-operative
work
required to develop systems that can enable us to recognize there is
something
way better than dieing and rotting everyone in the grave.</font><font
color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font
color="navy"><span style="color: navy;">I don’t agree entirely with
you Brent.
Transhumanist have worked very well in “groups” but unfortunately
some of the “groups” have used group-think to position themselves
against
other H+ “groups”. So it is not that H+ers cannot work together,
it is that more attention is often placed on a group as being better
than
another group. Why is this? The most often culprits are religious,
political or sex-oriented divisions. Tiresome, yes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Toward more
co-operation ,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Natasha<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.natasha.cc">Natasha Vita-More</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">BFA</span></font></st1:City><font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">, <st1:State w:st="on">MS</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">, MPhil/PhD Candidate,
Planetary
Collegium</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Faculty of Technology, <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">School</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Computers</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>,
Communication and Electronics</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">University of Plymouth</span></font></st1:City><font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">, <st1:country-region
w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.transhumanist.biz">Arts and
Design - NBIC+ Convergence</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.transhumanism.eu">H+ Europe</a></span></font><font
color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
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