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Hi Damien,
<br>
<br>
I'm going to answer with the assumption that the phenomenal theory here
is true:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/23/2">http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/23/2</a>
<br>
<br>
Of course, if any of this is ever demonstrated not to be not true, it
will falsify this theory.
<br>
<br>
First off, there is no phenomenal music outside of our head (that we
know of so far). There is just the synchronized behavioral vibrations
of various things which the phenomenal <b class="moz-txt-star"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>musicality<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>
in our head represents.
<br>
<br>
Next, to say there are 'qualia detectors' is a backwards way to think
of consciousness. Our ears detect the behavior of the vibrations in
the air. Then after some processing, our brain organizes or configures
itself in such a way that it has this <b class="moz-txt-star"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>musicality<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>
which represents this behavior in a conscious unified awareness way.
It is the final conscious result of such a detection, not the other way
around.
<br>
<br>
Phenomenal sound, along with much else in our consciousness is far more
complex than simple hard reliable red and green. We believe it is most
important to start with the phenomenal nature of red / green and
understand that - and how it is unified into one singular world. Once
you get that, then we believe we will be able to proceed into the
deeper more complex sounds, feelings, and all emotions of consciousness
which are just more complex instances of the phenomenally conscious.
<br>
<br>
The fact that the surface of a red stawbery behaves in such a way that
it reflects 700 nm light is no less "turtles in every direction" than
the possibility that, in addition to these behavioral properties,
matter also has phenomenal properties blind to cause and effect
observation; properties that are more than behavior, or abstracted
representations of such, and objectively 'effable' as described in this
early leading camp here:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/23/7">http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/23/7</a>
<br>
<br>
The really important thing is simply that everyone else can reliably
reproduce and demonstrate what it is like as in 'oh THAT is what salt
is like' for you. As Chalmers more or less says: 'its part of the
furniture of the universe'.
<br>
<br>
So, have I converted anyone to any of these camps? If not what camp
are you in? Who is going to be in THE right camp before everyone
else? I don't think we have much time before we all know 'THE ONE'
camp. And once that happens, the world will be a very very different,
perhaps even unrecognizable possibly objectively / sharably /
spiritual, if you will, place.
<br>
<br>
Brent, what is it effing like, Allsop
<br>
<br>
<br>
Damien Broderick wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:7.0.1.0.2.20081115125803.023cee08@satx.rr.com"
type="cite">At 11:38 AM 11/15/2008 -0700, Brent wrote:
<br>
<br>
>If, as this theory predicts, we discover that something in our
<br>
>brain does have phenomenal properties
<br>
<br>
Ah--then does the brain also have non-reductive *musicality* properties
over and above these postulated hearing-air-vibrations-as-sound-qualia
properties? I mean, sure, let's say we need these mysterious additional
raw qualia detectors just to *eff* sounds qua sounds, but doesn't that
leave out our capacity to identify and enjoy *musical* sound qualia?
Are these meta-[in]effable properties? You might say No, appreciating
music is just a neurocomputational/affective response to the basic
sound qualia, both innate and learned, but isn't that just *evading the
issue* of the (as it were) unutterable mysteriousness of music, its
meta-[in]effable character? And so on, turtles of different voice in
every direction.
<br>
<br>
Damien Broderick
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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