<div class="gmail_quote">2009/4/7 Lee Corbin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lcorbin@rawbw.com">lcorbin@rawbw.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Dagon Gmail wrote:<br>
<br>
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> The decline demographic numbers is a prime cause of the<br>
> economic malaise affecting the west.<br>
> ---Lee<br>
<br>
And I call that counter-productive if not completely dangerous<br>
</blockquote>
> bunk. I say that if one person uses x material resources,<br>
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energy at a certain standard of living, 100 persons will use<br>
</blockquote>
> far more than 100x in resources.<br>
<br>
You would have a *chance* to be right (though I would still<br>
suspect not) if technology were not constantly improving.<br>
Mass numbers assist technological breakthroughs because<br>
of the higher numbers of geniuses and others who contribute<br>
mightily to the advances.</blockquote><div><br>I agree. But damn, I can make this ideal of progress look a little shaky by waving<br>the Microsoft example around. I will give that a euphemism of your choice, but rest<br>
assured I don't like the given that despite technological leaps and bounds (we are<br>both healthier, more longlived, better educated, richer, more affluent, than kings<br>a few centuries ago. It can even be argued we have more servants, with automation<br>
and petrol-based industry) the world has these glaring blobs of suckage and tar<br>pit. And that is in the rich places. <br><br>I am angry about the ghettoficaion of the third world. Very angry. I see precious<br>little improvement there and I hope I am wrong in seeing the first signs of <br>
(what I cynically would term) the auschwitzization of the third world. <br><br>(Points at the gaza strip "model" that was so effectively marketed to Bagdad)<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
An American farmer today can grow five or six times the amount<br>
of food that he could in the 1950s on a single acre of land<br>
(or something like that). If you read about it, you'll be utterly<br>
impressed with the results of the green revolution.<br>
<br>
So your statement above just seems quite wrong, in principle<br>
as well as in particular.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I agree that there has been some cosmetic improvement (much of it the result of<br>civil awereness and unions), and you will no dount agree that at some time very big <br>numbers of people, voting or nonvoting, may get very very very upset by what they<br>
perceive a worsening of conditions (the deluded idiots..) <br><br>And since I have always that at some time poverty and despair will be directly<br>linked to terrorism blooms, you better hope I am completely wrong in my world<br>
view, for if enough people get upset, and I am right, you would very soon see the<br>glamorization of suicide-memes and the industrialization if terror. Current events<br>keep vindicating me in that world view. <br> </div>
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My assertion is that overpopulation is a MAJOR drain on efficiency,<br>
</blockquote>
> resources, energy, not even considering the cheapening of<br>
> human value, the stress caused by increased societal pressure,<br>
> exploitation, collapse of individual meaning and worth,</blockquote><div><br>"I assert that overpopulation is the primary drain on over-all efficiency, over-all<br>resources, access to [affordable] energy. I add that it also cheapens human<br>
labor and causes undue stress. Plus this devaluation of the human worth<br>(which we can see most acutely in the third world) creates a palatable climate<br>if "a sense of haunting and scarcity" where humans adopt an urge to get<br>
what you can, before anyone else does. <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Haven't quite got to the upcoming verb in that sentence, but<br>
I think that all that is poppycock (my own contribution to<br>
the standard of list argument here lately).<br>
What you write only describes the backward countries, who,<br>
usually because of corruption and the unequal distribution<br>
of capitalism, have yet to embrace sufficient technology<br>
to raise their standards of living---which has the exact<br>
*opposite* effect of what you state. Namely, increased<br>
standards of living *increase* efficiencies, decrease<br>
stresses in living, *decrease* exploitation, loss of human<br>
values, collapse of inidividual meaning and so on.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Yes, I wholeheartedly agree - if not for "certain distribution inefficiencies" (to get an idea<br>what I might refer to, look <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912">this</a>, then comment) - (Yes I agree with that Vid) the west<br>
would be becoming better at management. That is however irrelevant, since the<br>west is decreasing in populations and all the damn places (who can be asserted<br>to be also/as well subject to "these distribution inefficiencies") that are poor are<br>
essentially spiraling down. Oh right you sidestepped the give that most human <br>beings live in the third wold. <br><br>So what do I agree with ? - let me specific to avoid falling in semantic traps (I am <br>dutch, and my English is reasonable, it is not my native tongue)<br>
<br>I agree that the western society has potential and opportunity to improve itself, <br>fundamentally. I state that to my best perceptions most of the world does most<br>does have potential and opportunity, and in many cases not even vision or<br>
incentive to improve conditions. In many parts of Africa there are even solid<br>incentives to reduce conditions. <br><br>Big portions of the world may have memes and cultures that make them predisposed<br>to largescale "shooting themselves in the food". Wildly fascinating term: big parts<br>
of the middle east are "talibanizing". Thats not shooting yourself in the foot. Its more<br>like dangling both feet in a woodchipper. So why so these bearded simpletons do that?<br><br>Maybe its some kind of zany LARP that got out of hand? You tell me. <br>
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That's easy to see, because it is precisely in the most<br>
technologically advanced nations that the social trends<br>
are the best. Unless you want to resort to the old<br>
discredited Comintern line that the west is only achieving<br>
these unprecedented levels of prosperity by exploiting all<br>
the third world basket cases, which is palpably untrue.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>There are arguments for that (or were) but I won't press these as a dogma, as my<br>suspicions cannot be proven and its a castrated discourse. But I urge caution to even<br>the most hysterical rightwingers, if that did any good. <br>
<br>I believe terms like "wholesale continental sodomy with coke bottles" applies. But who<br>am I other than some unlikeble eurotrash? <br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I do thank you for your impressive list of references. I'm<br>
pretty sure that it would be almost impossible for me to<br>
find an equally long list supporting my views, because your<br>
view is a la mode, so to speak. For every book pointing out<br>
the errors of the left/green coalition, there are five<br>
repeating the same claims. In that regard, it's just like<br>
global warming.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I feel you are muttering angrily with a hint of frustration but I am absolutely certain<br>you will mock this perception. <br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Reciting *more* references to your cause doesn't cause you<br>
to win rational debates.</blockquote><div><br>No, my chances to bring you towards the baby child Jesus are as slim as pushing<br>back volcanic matter back into the lava tubes with a garden hose. But I have some hope <br>
I reach doubters - and I think the stakes are high.<br><br>Unfortunately I am in a lose/lose situation.<br><br>1- I think the compound consequences of population growth in the whole world as well as<br>in the mostly densely populated regions of earth are WORSE than any potential climatic<br>
effects. Worse whereas there is still wiggle room in some aspects of the climate debate<br>I cannot suppress my moral outrage when people actually do deny that rampant population<br>growth is "manageable". <br><br>
2- voters cannot be swayed to not breed. You cannot win elections by advocating democratic<br>reforms in breeding restrictions. It makes you unelectable. Neither is a tyranny sustainable<br>that enforces breeding restrictions. <br>
<br>Hence - we are stuck with this situation - but that's why I am a H+ian (or robot woo woo <br>yestron cultist) because I believe that if fundamental solutions do not emerge in society<br>economical systems, politics, industry, management, etc etc) we are headed for the<br>
flusher. <br><br>We are not in a world where "ideal solutions: exist, but if I were harry stalin potter, I would<br>cast might spells that create fountains of immortality (making the imbiber healthy, smart, <br>beautiful, easily upgraded and augmented - <b>and completely unable to procreate</b>). <br>
<br>I think this is precisely where the solition lies.<br><br>I will then generously allow you to create competing fountains of your choice, with the caveat <br>this marvel is hidden for the time being in a deserted but very stable biodome a mile under the <br>
surface on one of the hundred biggest asteroids. It'll probably grow shark fins on anyone<br>who drinks from it. <br><br><br></div></div>