Ironically, as I write this a friend is watching "Three Kings."<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Jeff Davis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jrd1415@gmail.com">jrd1415@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div class="im">2009/6/6 John Grigg <<a href="mailto:possiblepaths2050@gmail.com">possiblepaths2050@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:<br>> America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have<br>
> killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual<br>> justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way.<br>>>>><br>><br>> Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war?? How<br>
> many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved?? Please<br>> let me know...<br></div></blockquote>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span>Jeff Davis wrote:<br></div>One million Iraqi dead in an illegal invasion,... let's see, out of<br>twenty-five million,...that's four percent of the population. So, if<br>the US population is three hundred million, then four percent of that<br>
is twelve million. So, to answer John's (rhetorical and profoundly<br>stupid, manipulative, and biased) question -- (actually, it was John's<br>lame attempt to box Stathis in, since, no one who isn't "with the<br>
terrorists" is "allowed" to advocate the killing of Americans) -- but,<br>wrongo bongo again -- on the basis of numerical equivalence then, the<br>"terrorists" (Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Taliban of whatever stripe,<br>
al Quaeda, oh hell!, let's just say Muslims the world over and be done<br>with it) have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the killing of<br>11,992,000 Americans.<br><br>Please check my math.<br>
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<div>Okay, it was a loaded rhetorical comment but I was rightfully (in my view) angry. But I really don't think your above response was in good taste, to say the least. </div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> Americans (even those in uniform) tend to feel very sad about innocents<br>> getting killed due to the fighting...<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Please please stop. you're killing me.<br> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.<br>
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<div>What?? You think the bulk of American soldiers in Iraq are like the ancient Romans or Assyrians, in terms of their conduct as occupiers? You really have a low opinion of your own nation's servicemen and women. You seem to consider this is a big joke. Perhaps you should have built your dream home somewhere in Europe... </div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> And the Iraqi people have scratched<br>> their heads in amazement as American troops accused of war crimes have (at<br>> least sometimes) been tried for their wrongdoing and convicted.<br>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span>Jeff Davis wrote:<br></div>Hahahahahahahahaha. Oh god this is good. Hahahahahahahaha. And<br>that pathetical parenthetical,... oh god that's sweet.<br>Hahahahahahaha.</blockquote>
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<div>I saw an ABC News special where they interviewed very surprised Iraqi's, as they viewed on television U.S. soldiers being brought up on charges for various crimes. Or do you not believe anything you see on television? Your responses to my post are mostly "hahahahahaha" and not much of a real reply. </div>
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<div class="im"><br>> Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>Which makes it all okay, right? The Taliban weren't "our" enemy<br>until the Bush cabal needed someone to shoot at so as to distract<br>Americans from noticing how Osama got away.<br>
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<div>The Taliban needed to be dealt with, even if they were a monster we had initially nurtured to get Russia out of Afghanistan. Yes, Osama got away and it pains me that we have largely let him and others hide out in Pakistan because we don't want to rock the boat there (after all, they have nukes and we don't want to destabilize the gov't and have the Muslim fundamentalists take over).</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> and it was only a matter<br>> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist<br>> organizations and became a major supporter of them.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span>Jeff Davis wrote:<br></div>Made up out of whole Neocon cloth.<br>
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<div>Painlord did a good job of buttressing my claim here. Jeff, I feel like you are channeling Al Franken! lol </div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> I just wish Pres. Bush<br>> had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out,<br><br></div>Yeah, right! If he had just gone to the American people and said ,<br>
"The Israelis have put in a order for the American military to take<br>out Saddam and make the mideast safe for Israel. They want Americans<br>to die for the jews (there was a Holocaust remember, so that makes it<br>
okay) and for American taxpayers to foot the bill. Emper... er, Vice<br>President Cheney wants Iraqi oil for his pals at Halliburton, the<br>military industrial complex wants the business, and we've got a<br>buttload of new generals in the Army and Marines just itchin' to show<br>
their stuff, get some more stars, and maybe get a shot at runnin' for<br>president some day soon on the Republican ticket. What say, America,<br>are you ready to rumble?!!"<br><br>Americans would have jumped at the chance. I can't for the life of me<br>
figure why he thought he had to lie about it!!! Fuck the UN charter.<br>
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<div>America was itching for some WWII style payback after 9-11 and Iraq was an easier target than Pakistan. Saddam already had created so much bad blood with the U.S. due to the first Gulf War. And his well known reputation for terrorizing his own population, raping & sometimes even murdering women that caught his eye, made him a juicy bad guy straight out of Hollywood central casting. He actually held up Josef Stalin as his personal ideal. </div>
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<div>you wrote:</div>
<div>>They want Americans to die for the jews (there was a >Holocaust remember, so that makes it okay)</div>
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<div>I think you buy way too much into "the Jews got us to do it conspiracy!" </div>
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<div>At least according to one source, Iran was Israel's nation of choice to be invaded by us...</div>
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<div><a href="http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39051">http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39051</a></div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the<br>> combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S.<br>> possesses? I shudder at the very thought...<br>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>Because, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union your brain is<br>still polluted with all that anti-communist bullshit. Here's what you<br>do. Rip the cord from some unused appliance. Cut it to length -- a<br>
foot less than your height -- strip the ends and tape them to your<br>temples. Now lie on the floor directly opposite an electrical outlet<br>on the wall. Place your feet one on either side of the outlet, and<br>then plug 'er in. You've heard of colon cleansing?, well, I call this<br>
Jeff's DIY ES brain cleansing(you're gonna get a colon cleansing as<br>well, at no extra charge, but that's not the main deal, just icing on<br>the cake). Be sure that the cord is shorter than you are (to insure<br>
that when your back arches and your legs straighten spasmodically, the<br>cord is jerked from the wall), otherwise you could cause yourself<br>serious injury or death.<br><br>If you are pleased with the result, and want more, you can attach one<br>
of the "electrodes" to your nipples or genitals for that special<br>"National Security Frisson". I refer to this as Jeff's DIY "Enhanced"<br>ES Brain Cleansing.<br>
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<div>Wow! Did you make your fortune packaging this technique to help others achieve ideological change? ; ) And have you tested this method yet on yourself? Perhaps you did, but too many times...</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>><br>> A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll<br>> ten times (or a hundred times...) what we have had due to mass executions,<br>> concentration/labor camps, the firebombing of entire cities, starvation,<br>
> rape, body organ stealing, disease, and death march deportations.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>Not to mention puppies set on fire, dildoes in the shape Pirogis and<br>egg rolls, and toilet paper with faces of American presidents printed<br>one to a sheet. Aaarggggh!!! those evil commies, is there no limit<br>
to their depravity??!!<br>
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<div>It all seems fun and games until they come for you. I guess the war crimes committed by Russia in Afghanistan, and the murder and rape perpetrated by China on Tibet, just doesn't matter... </div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> The<br>> United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>And what point is that, the point at which they cross the Iraqi border?<br>
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<div>You really need to start a radio show with Al Franken and Michael Moore.</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> America has it's definite shortcomings,<br><br></div>A vile slander! Off to Guantanamo with him for the international<br>waterboarding finals!<br>
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<div>LOL No, you have not heard the latest about U.S. interrogators, because now we try the "I want to be your friend and here are some cookies" approach. But if I get put on an international flight then I'm in serious trouble. Or I should say when *you* are put on one... ; )</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> but at least we have values and<br>> principles to aspire to<br><br></div>Or hide behind, until the veil is stripped away by al Jazeera and the<br>blogosphere. Why, oh why won't they just learn how to say "How high?"<br>
All we are saying is give American exceptionalism a chance.<br>
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<div>Oh, yes... The bastion of journalistic integrity known as al Jazeera! lol </div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>>(despite sometimes veering off in the wrong<br>> direction, until course corrections are made)<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>Despite sometimes veering off in the right<br>
<div class="im">direction, until course corrections are made<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>You are the total cynic... But I envision you at your computer keyboard right now with a big bottle of Jack Daniels (mostly empty at this point).</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> instead of merely always<br>> pursuing power for it's own sake and with no concern for human life and<br>> liberty, which is the approach of our rivals.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>I don't know. Sounds an awful lot like the approach of the US political class.<br>
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<div>I think you are quite the cynic, and at least we have a generally free press and open society. But keep in mind, what level of journalistic and public free expression do they have in Russia or China? And the answer is vastly less than the United States. </div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span>><br>> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out<br>> very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who<br>> want to cripple Western civilization.<br>
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<div>Jeff Davis writes:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>Yeah, yeah. And set puppies on fire, make all women look like Ernest<br>Borgnine, make baseball illegal unless you wear a tutu, force<br>Republicans to pretend that they're straight, etc<br>
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<div>That is only the icing on the cake. Actually, they want to set kittens on fire, make American football illegal and replace it with soccer, and have separate airport rest rooms for Republican politicians! But I must say they think Ernest Borgnine is the ideal of feminine beauty and so they at least mean well in that category. : )</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br>> Yes, it's terrible that so many<br>> innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the<br>> insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover<br>
> & impromptu human shields.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
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<div class="im"><span id=""></span><br></div>It's called defending their neighborhood. They live there.<br></blockquote>
<div>"Hey, Achmed, I'm bored today." "Why, yes, Abdul, so am I, and low on money..." "Well, Achmed, so why don't we get a big cash bonus from a militia recruiter and shoot at American troops today!" "Great idea, my friend!" "Let's go!!" </div>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><span id=""></span><br>The "human shields" canard is just standard, lame (but nonetheless<br>effective) pentagon blame shifting.They much prefer (though they ever<br>
so deeply regret) killing civilians by the hundreds than risking the<br>lives of grunts in house to house fighting.<br><br> ****************************************<br></blockquote>
<div>I bet the parents, wives and kids of those grunts are grateful to get to see them again and not attend their funeral. Yes, the Iraqi innocents have just as much right to living. War is hell and sometimes/often America does not live up to it's principles. </div>
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<div>What I find ironic is the number of Europeans (or those who were at least born and raised there) who grind their teeth at the tyranny of America in the Middle East, fighting amongst Arabs. But yet when in *their own backyard* they had Muslims being massacred and raped by Serbians, etc., they barely raised a finger to help. </div>
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<div>Jeff Davis wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><span id=""></span><br>John, I feel badly about taking you to task so harshly, but it had to<br>be done. I hope you will forgive me. I know your heart's in the<br>
right place.<br><br>Best, Jeff Davis<br></blockquote>
<div>Jeff, I remember fondly our Extro 5 conversations and I know you are a very good guy. But I still want to believe the United States is not rotten, or at least better than you think it is. </div>
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<div>A quote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><span id=""></span><br>"Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose<br>your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they<br>
mind, and how long they remember."<br> Martin Amis<br>
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<div>A quote many people on this list need to keep in mind (including me).</div>
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<div>John</div></div>