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<DIV>This is like saying Stalin's apparatchiks let 5 million+ starve in the Ukraine, plus another 5 million+ turned into zeks, but they did improve heath care and empower women. Pyrrhic achievements. Besides, you write here as if Iraq is entirely finished because of what Bush (admittedly a hack who trashed Reagan & Clinton foreign policy) did years ago. What about the future of Iraq? one question now is: can a future Iraq treat women better?</DIV>
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<DIV>>Indeed. Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical terrorists. They >allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, etc. They has full access to western media and TV. Iraq was the most secular and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. They would have been the least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist radicals.<BR><BR><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"></SPAN><FONT size=1>"<FONT face="garamond, new york, times, serif"><STRONG><EM>good enough for government work</EM></STRONG></FONT>"</FONT> --<FONT face="garamond, new york, times, serif" size=1><STRONG>Wally Shirra</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 6/7/09, extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org <I><extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org <extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org><BR>Subject: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 69, Issue 13<BR>To: extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org<BR>Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 11:44 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to<BR> <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A><BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR> <A href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</A><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR> <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org</A><BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR> <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat-owner@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>extropy-chat-owner@lists.extropy.org</A><BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Re: USA Health Costs (BillK)<BR> 2. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR> (<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>)<BR> 3. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Damien Broderick)<BR> 4. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Lee Corbin)<BR> 5. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) (Jeff Davis)<BR> 6. Are hard
drugs not really addictive after all? (BillK)<BR> 7. Re: Are hard drugs not really addictive after all?<BR> (Damien Broderick)<BR> 8. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR> (Harvey Newstrom)<BR> 9. Re: Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake!<BR> (Harvey Newstrom)<BR> 10. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) (Jeff Davis)<BR> 11. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) (Stefano Vaj)<BR> 12. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay
population)<BR> (<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>)<BR> 13. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary<BR> Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR> (Damien Broderick)<BR> 14. Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces<BR> (Bryan Bishop)<BR> 15. Re: [Open Manufacturing] Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative human<BR> keyboard interfaces (Bryan Bishop)<BR> 16. Re: USA Health Costs (Stathis Papaioannou)<BR> 17. 'Gendertopia'? (Post Futurist)<BR> 18. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War<BR> (Stathis Papaioannou)<BR> 19. Re: Are hard drugs not really addictive after all?<BR> (Stathis Papaioannou)<BR> 20. Re: future fizzle
(spike)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:08:22 +0000<BR>From: BillK <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pharos@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>pharos@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Health Costs<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ee50357e0906070508j61c67u3abe0bdb1a325d59@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>ee50357e0906070508j61c67u3abe0bdb1a325d59@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On 6/7/09, painlord2k wrote:<BR><snip><BR>> It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to use someone else<BR>> money. It is the right of the people owning
the money to choose how use it.<BR>> Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you<BR>> morally better than them?<BR>><BR><BR><BR>Yea! I don't want no doctor telling me what my disease is or what<BR>treatments might fix it. Just because he's got degrees and stuff and<BR>years of experience. How dare he!<BR><BR>I'll do a google search and know just as much as he does. Get rid of<BR>all doctors - they're just wasting my money.<BR><BR>I admit I can't do operations on myself. But my friend Fred could do<BR>the operation for me, if I printed out the instructions from google.<BR>Really, the whole medical profession is just a big con trick. We could<BR>all save loads of money by getting rid of them.<BR><BR><BR>BillK<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:22:14 +0200<BR>From: "<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>" <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>><BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rafal@smigrodzki.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>rafal@smigrodzki.org</A>, ExI chat list<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4A2BCD16.2000807@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>4A2BCD16.2000807@libero.it</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>Il 06/06/2009 14.44, Rafal Smigrodzki ha scritto:<BR>> 2009/6/6 John
Grigg<<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=possiblepaths2050@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>possiblepaths2050@gmail.com</A>>:<BR>><BR>> it was only a matter<BR>>> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist<BR>>> organizations and became a major supporter of them. I just wish Pres. Bush<BR>>> had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out,<BR>>> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD.<BR>>><BR>> ### This is stupid.<BR><BR>Yes.<BR><BR>The invasion was not justified by WMD (this is what the press pressed <BR>because what bleed lead). The war was legally justified by the repeated <BR>violation of the armistice clauses. If the Iraq's government didn't <BR>respected the clauses, any and all powers had the right to resume the <BR>combat operations and topple the Iraq's government as they feel fit.<BR><BR>Rights
don't need justifications when used.<BR><BR>People could disagree on the need to do so, or if it was a wise move or <BR>if it netted any gains. But the legal justification is correct.<BR>MSM journalists are notorious to write about stuff they don't know or <BR>don't understand and always in a such way that adhere to their chosen <BR>"narrative" and not to the truth.<BR><BR>Mirco<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR><BR>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <BR>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 18:04:00<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:24:03 -0500<BR>From: Damien Broderick <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thespike@satx.rr.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>thespike@satx.rr.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=7.0.1.0.2.20090607122253.02325158@satx.rr.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>7.0.1.0.2.20090607122253.02325158@satx.rr.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed<BR><BR>At 04:22 PM 6/7/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote:<BR><BR>>MSM journalists are notorious to write about stuff they don't know <BR>>or don't understand and always in a such way that adhere to their <BR>>chosen "narrative" and not to the truth.<BR><BR>But thank dog, at least that never happens on the ExI list.<BR><BR>Damien Broderick<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 10:53:55 -0700<BR>From: Lee Corbin <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lcorbin@rawbw.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>lcorbin@rawbw.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<BR><BR>What's the question here, and what's really driving<BR>the diverse views?<BR><BR>Our emotions, let's face it, very often drive our<BR>initial answers to many queries, at which point<BR>our rational engines kick in to supply a nice<BR>"rationalization" of the answers we want to obtain.<BR><BR>In the present case, some people are biased in<BR>America's favor, and others resent the U.S.<BR><BR>Why America? Easy: since the end of WWII, the U..S.<BR>has been
the "big cheese" among nations, and so<BR>of course garners the most attention. It also follows<BR>that the moral question "Is America doing the right<BR>thing" far outweighs "Is Burkina Faso doing the<BR>right thing?"<BR><BR>As such, this very question provides a critical<BR>thinker a great working example so that he or she<BR>might examine his or her own biases and, if there<BR>is any interest, try to overcome those biases.<BR><BR>Standing back from just the current "Death Toll<BR>Imbalance" and taking an historical view, all<BR>throughout history invading armies commit atrocities.<BR>And contrary to what some here have written, indeed<BR>the soldiers often enjoy it. Armed conflict of any<BR>kind does tend to bring out the worst in us. The<BR>good news is that the levels of atrocities are<BR>falling off.<BR><BR>I therefore thank Stathis for informing us that<BR>"In occupied Europe, the Germans sometimes tried<BR>and punished soldiers who
committed crimes against<BR>the local population." That's news to me. Haven't<BR>we always been regaled with countless stories of<BR>the Germans taking out whole villages in reprisal<BR>for guerrilla actions?<BR><BR>By and large, the pattern is this: in general, the<BR>wealthier and richer a nation is, the more likely<BR>that it will have risen to the point that it can<BR>afford the luxury of being less terrible to<BR>its subjects, including the new subjects of a<BR>conquered nation that often need to be taught a<BR>lesson, i.e. "taught respect" or, what amounts to<BR>the same thing, persuaded that further resistance<BR>will be punished.<BR><BR>On this reading it's clear that one would expect<BR>the U.S. to be more careful about civilian deaths<BR>than the Taliban. If the Taliban or its ally<BR>succeeds in killing thousands of civilians in<BR>the United States in a "terrorist" blow, it's<BR>cause for them to rejoice; whereas if the United
States<BR>blows up an aspirin factory in the Sudan, killing<BR>uninvolved civilians, the Americans will consider<BR>it to have been a mistake and will suffer a great<BR>deal of internal criticism.<BR><BR>Stathis wrote<BR><BR>"The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in<BR>type and scale to the American war in Vietnam.<BR>Do you have any evidence suggesting that the<BR>Americans behaved better than the Soviets?"<BR><BR>It does seem to be the case that the U.S.<BR>committed fewer actions that we on this list<BR>would regard as atrocities. More important,<BR>however, is how the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.<BR>regarded their own atrocities. In the former<BR>the massacre at My Lai received a tremendous<BR>amount of criticism, and the generals and<BR>colonels involved---simply for the sakes of<BR>their own careers, if nothing else---would<BR>have prevented it had they known ahead of time.<BR>For a gripping view of Soviet atrocities, you<BR>could see the movie
"Charlie Wilson's War", :)<BR>though that probably isn't what you wanted in<BR>terms of "evidence". It happens to be true that<BR>even taking their wealth into account, Russian<BR>soldiers and generals all throughout the<BR>twentieth century were well known for their<BR>relative brutality and ruthlessness.<BR><BR>To me it's appropriate to criticize nations<BR>and leaders so long as an attempt is made to<BR>do it with as little bias as possible. If at<BR>a deep level you resent the prestige and<BR>power of "the big cheese" among nations, do<BR>try to compensate for that; on the other hand,<BR>if you are pro-American or are an American<BR>patriot, in discussions like this some effort<BR>also should be made to overcome bias.<BR><BR>The present conflicts that involve America are<BR>too recent for one to easily get an unbiased<BR>view of who is the *naughtiest* (given their<BR>background level of wealth). Almost all the<BR>information I see comes from
politically motivated<BR>sources. The endless finger-pointing suggests to<BR>me that the pundits actually hope that their<BR>denunciations will have some political effect,<BR>and that that's what's important to them. That<BR>would be sad, if it weren't so ridiculous.<BR><BR>Stathis wrote<BR><BR>> 2009/6/6 John Grigg wrote<BR>><BR>>> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out<BR>>> very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who<BR>>> want to cripple Western civilization. Yes, it's terrible that so many<BR>>> innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the<BR>>> insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover<BR>>> & impromptu human shields.<BR>> <BR>> And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that<BR>> innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents
hiding<BR>> among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure<BR>> that America would never be able to threaten other countries again.<BR><BR>We see some examples of what I'm saying right here.<BR>How do we know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda delight<BR>in crimes against humanity? I don't think so. It<BR>simply stands to reason, however, that their humanitarian<BR>impulses are, due to their background, less refined than<BR>those of the west. If they cheer when a couple of thousand<BR>of American civilians die in a terrorist act, we have to<BR>take their history (and even their religion) into account.<BR>They haven't been living in the twentieth century long,<BR>if at all.<BR><BR>Likewise, how do we know that "all the Iraqi [insurgents]<BR>wanted to do was make sure that America would never be<BR>able to threaten other countries again"? They have their<BR>own reasons for resenting "the big cheese", a lot of it<BR>cultural, and
it's a mistake for western readers to<BR>imagine that those reasons are identical to their own.<BR>Far from it.<BR><BR>Lee<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 5<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:38:32 -0700<BR>From: Jeff Davis <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jrd1415@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>jrd1415@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=a6a17bd40906071138n3ad6b1aaref8270392175ca00@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>a6a17bd40906071138n3ad6b1aaref8270392175ca00@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>2009/6/6 <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero..it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>>:<BR><BR>> When was the last time the American supreme commander gave the permission to<BR>> kill indiscriminately for two hours and the troops killed indiscriminately<BR>> for two days? And no one went to court martial and was hanged?<BR><BR>Iraq in general, Fallujah and Blackwater in particular.<BR><BR>You;'re completely whacked, Mirco.<BR><BR>"Lips."<BR><BR>Best, Jeff Davis<BR><BR>"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities<BR> committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity<BR>
for not even hearing about them."<BR> George Orwell<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 6<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:17:07 +0000<BR>From: BillK <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pharos@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>pharos@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: Extropy Chat <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all?<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ee50357e0906071217o74e1c6cerb87a3e41c3899de7@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>ee50357e0906071217o74e1c6cerb87a3e41c3899de7@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR><<A href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/jun/02/farout" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/jun/02/farout</A>><BR>Quote:<BR>The predominant model of drug addiction views it as a disease: humans<BR>and animals will use heroin or cocaine for as long as they are<BR>available. When the drugs run out, they will seek a fresh supply; the<BR>drugs, not the users, are in control.<BR><BR>These conclusions, repeated frequently by politicians and the media,<BR>are based on experiments carried out almost exclusively on animals,<BR>usually rats and monkeys, housed in metal cages and experiencing a<BR>particularly poor quality of life. What would happen, wondered<BR>psychologist Dr Bruce Alexander, then of British Columbia's Simon<BR>Fraser University, if these animals were instead provided
with a<BR>comfortable, stimulating environment?<BR>-------------<BR><BR>Alexander found that the rats stopped drinking the morphine immediately.<BR>He has written a book about drug addiction.<BR><<A href="http://www.amazon.ca/Globalisation-Addiction-Bruce-Alexander/dp/0199230129" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.amazon.ca/Globalisation-Addiction-Bruce-Alexander/dp/0199230129</A>><BR><BR><BR><<A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park</A>><BR>He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which<BR>laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to<BR>a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed<BR>animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress<BR>pharmacologically if they can."<BR><BR>----------------<BR><BR>Even Oprah is getting in on this.<BR><<A
href="http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazine/200901_omag_beck_rat_race" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazine/200901_omag_beck_rat_race</A>><BR>they spend many hours playing roles that don't match their innate<BR>personalities and preferences, dulling the pain with mood-altering<BR>substances. Miserable with their jobs, relationships, or daily<BR>routines, they gulp down a fifth of Scotch, buy 46 commemorative Elvis<BR>plates on QVC, superglue phony smiles to their faces, and head on out<BR>to whatever rat race is gradually destroying them.<BR>---------<BR><BR>So, is drug taking just a coping mechanism for people with really<BR>desperate life circumstances?<BR><BR>The monkeys in cages killing themselves with drugs has led futurists<BR>to speculate that transhumans will wirehead themselves into oblivion<BR>because they will be unable to resist the overwhelming pleasure. This<BR>is proposed as one explanation for the Fermi
problem. But if this<BR>research is correct, then that won't happen. If our future lives are<BR>pleasant and fulfilling, then wireheading will just be an occasional<BR>pleasure and not a life-threatening addiction.<BR><BR>BillK<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 7<BR>Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:36:42 -0500<BR>From: Damien Broderick <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thespike@satx.rr.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>thespike@satx.rr.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all?<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=7.0.1.0.2.20090607143356.023565a8@satx.rr.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>7.0.1.0.2.20090607143356.023565a8@satx.rr.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed<BR><BR>This fits the claims of smart people like Samuel R. Delany who say <BR>they could take it or leave it, and seem to be telling the truth. I <BR>suppose the trouble is you can't be sure what sort of response you'll <BR>show until you're maybe in too deep. But I was able to give up <BR>cigarettes, alcohol, coffee and almost all black tea without <BR>*dreadful* trouble (although I needed about 4 runs at the smokes over <BR>a decade or so--that stuff is *seriously* habituating/addictive).<BR><BR>Damien Broderick<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 8<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:09:00 -0400<BR>From: Harvey Newstrom <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mail@harveynewstrom.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>mail@harveynewstrom..com</A>><BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>On Saturday 06 June 2009 8:44:10 am Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:<BR>> 2009/6/6 John Grigg <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=possiblepaths2050@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>possiblepaths2050@gmail.com</A>>:<BR>><BR>> ?it was only a matter<BR>><BR>> > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist<BR>> > organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres.<BR>> > Bush had not lied to
start a war that actually needed to be carried out,<BR>> > but?obviously not?on a false?pretense regarding WMD.<BR>><BR>> ### This is stupid.<BR><BR>Indeed. Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical <BR>terrorists. They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, <BR>etc. They has full access to western media and TV. Iraq was the most secular <BR>and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. They would have been the <BR>least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist <BR>radicals.<BR><BR>-- <BR>Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 9<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:32:13 -0400<BR>From: Harvey Newstrom <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mail@harveynewstrom.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>mail@harveynewstrom.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake!<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=200906071232.13886.mail@harveynewstrom.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>200906071232.13886.mail@harveynewstrom.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>On Thursday 04 June 2009 12:10:46 am spike wrote:<BR>> > "spike" <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spike66@att.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>spike66@att.net</A>> wrote,<BR>> > > Evidence please?<BR>> ><BR>> > <<A href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/18/cheney.iraq.al.qaeda/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/18/cheney.iraq.al.qaeda/</A>><BR>> > --<BR>> > Harvey Newstrom
<www.HarveyNewstrom.com><BR>><BR>> Ja. Cheney is saying now, and appears to be saying then, that Iraq didn't<BR>> do 9/11, (or if they did, the CIA couldn't prove it), but that Iraq had<BR>> some mysterious relationship with bin Laden. Cheney isn't saying now that<BR>> there was no relationship between Iraq and bin Laden, only that Iraq didn't<BR>> help with the 9/11 attacks. I see no contradiction here.<BR><BR>In his March 21, 2003, letter to the speaker of the House of Representatives <BR>and president pro tempore of the Senate notifying them of the use of military <BR>force in Iraq after the failure of diplomacy, Bush stated that "the use of <BR>armed force against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other <BR>countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international <BR>terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, <BR>organizations, or persons who planned,
authorized, committed, or aided the <BR>terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." <BR>On the December 9, 2001, edition of Meet the Press, Cheney said that it was <BR>"pretty well confirmed" that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with September 11 <BR>hijacker Mohamed Atta shortly before the attacks.<BR>On the September 14, 2003, edition of the NBC program, Cheney said: "If we're <BR>successful in Iraq ... we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of <BR>the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us <BR>under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9-11." <BR>-- <BR>Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 10<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:40:34 -0700<BR>From: Jeff Davis <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jrd1415@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>jrd1415@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=a6a17bd40906071440o57138017xe953449a79b4245b@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>a6a17bd40906071440o57138017xe953449a79b4245b@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>2009/6/6 John Grigg <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=possiblepaths2050@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>possiblepaths2050@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:<BR>> America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims
have<BR>> killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual<BR>> justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way.<BR>>>>><BR>><BR>> Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??? How<BR>> many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??? Please<BR>> let me know...<BR><BR>One million Iraqi dead in an illegal invasion,... let's see, out of<BR>twenty-five million,...that's four percent of the population. So, if<BR>the US population is three hundred million, then four percent of that<BR>is twelve million. So, to answer John's (rhetorical and profoundly<BR>stupid, manipulative, and biased) question -- (actually, it was John's<BR>lame attempt to box Stathis in, since, no one who isn't "with the<BR>terrorists" is "allowed" to advocate the killing of Americans) -- but,<BR>wrongo bongo again -- on the basis of numerical equivalence then,
the<BR>"terrorists" (Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Taliban of whatever stripe,<BR>al Quaeda, oh hell!, let's just say Muslims the world over and be done<BR>with it) have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the killing of<BR>11,992,000 Americans.<BR><BR>Please check my math.<BR><BR>> Americans?(even those in uniform) tend to feel very?sad about innocents<BR>> getting killed?due to the fighting...<BR><BR>Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Please please stop. you're killing me.<BR>Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.<BR><BR>> And the Iraqi people have scratched<BR>> their heads in amazement as American?troops?accused of war crimes have?(at<BR>> least sometimes) been?tried for their?wrongdoing and convicted.<BR><BR>Hahahahahahahahaha. Oh god this is good. Hahahahahahahaha. And<BR>that pathetical parenthetical,... oh god that's sweet.<BR>Hahahahahahaha.<BR><BR>
<snip><BR><BR>> Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold<BR><BR>Which makes it all okay, right? The Taliban weren't "our" enemy<BR>until the Bush cabal needed someone to shoot at so as to distract<BR>Americans from noticing how Osama got away.<BR><BR>> and?it was only a matter<BR>> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist<BR>> organizations and became a major supporter of them.<BR><BR>Made up out of whole Neocon cloth.<BR><BR>>? I just wish Pres. Bush<BR>> had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out,<BR><BR>Yeah, right! If he had just gone to the American people and said?,<BR>"The Israelis have put in a order for the American military to take<BR>out Saddam and make the mideast safe for Israel. They want Americans<BR>to die for the jews (there was a Holocaust remember, so that makes it<BR>okay) and
for American taxpayers to foot the bill. Emper... er, Vice<BR>President Cheney wants Iraqi oil for his pals at Halliburton, the<BR>military industrial complex wants the business, and we've got a<BR>buttload of new generals in the Army and Marines just itchin' to show<BR>their stuff, get some more stars, and maybe get a shot at runnin' for<BR>president some day soon on the Republican ticket. What say, America,<BR>are you ready to rumble?!!"<BR><BR>Americans would have jumped at the chance. I can't for the life of me<BR>figure why he thought he had to lie about it!!! Fuck the UN charter.<BR><BR>> But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the<BR>> combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S.<BR>> possesses?? I shudder at the very thought...<BR><BR>Because, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union your brain is<BR>still polluted with all that anti-communist
bullshit. Here's what you<BR>do. Rip the cord from some unused appliance. Cut it to length -- a<BR>foot less than your height -- strip the ends and tape them to your<BR>temples. Now lie on the floor directly opposite an electrical outlet<BR>on the wall. Place your feet one on either side of the outlet, and<BR>then plug 'er in. You've heard of colon cleansing?, well, I call this<BR>Jeff's DIY ES brain cleansing(you're gonna get a colon cleansing as<BR>well, at no extra charge, but that's not the main deal, just icing on<BR>the cake). Be sure that the cord is shorter than you are (to insure<BR>that when your back arches and your legs straighten spasmodically, the<BR>cord is jerked from the wall), otherwise you could cause yourself<BR>serious injury or death.<BR><BR>If you are pleased with the result, and want more, you can attach one<BR>of the "electrodes" to your nipples or genitals for that special<BR>"National
Security Frisson". I refer to this as Jeff's DIY "Enhanced"<BR>ES Brain Cleansing.<BR><BR>><BR>> A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll<BR>> ten times (or a hundred times...)?what we have had due to?mass executions,<BR>> concentration/labor camps,?the firebombing of entire cities, starvation,<BR>> rape, body?organ stealing,?disease, and death march deportations.<BR><BR>Not to mention puppies set on fire, dildoes in the shape Pirogis and<BR>egg rolls, and toilet paper with faces of American presidents printed<BR>one to a sheet. Aaarggggh!!! those evil commies, is there no limit<BR>to their depravity??!!<BR><BR>> The<BR>> United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely.<BR><BR>And what point is that, the point at which they cross the Iraqi border?<BR><BR>> America has it's definite shortcomings,<BR><BR>A vile slander! Off to Guantanamo with
him for the international<BR>waterboarding finals!<BR><BR>> but at least we have values and<BR>> principles to aspire to<BR><BR>Or hide behind, until the veil is stripped away by al Jazeera and the<BR>blogosphere.. Why, oh why won't they just learn how to say "How high?"<BR>All we are saying is give American exceptionalism a chance.<BR><BR>>(despite sometimes veering off in the wrong<BR>> direction, until course corrections are made)<BR><BR>Despite sometimes veering off in the right<BR>direction, until course corrections are made<BR><BR>> instead of merely always<BR>> pursuing power for it's own?sake and with no concern for human life and<BR>> liberty, which is the approach of our rivals.<BR><BR>I don't know.. Sounds an awful lot like the approach of the US political class.<BR>><BR>> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out<BR>> very vicious?organizations that delight in
crimes against humanity and who<BR>> want to cripple Western civilization.<BR><BR>Yeah, yeah. And set puppies on fire, make all women look like Ernest<BR>Borgnine, make baseball illegal unless you wear a tutu, force<BR>Republicans to pretend that they're straight, etc<BR><BR>>? Yes, it's terrible that so many<BR>> innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the<BR>> insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls?as cover<BR>> &?impromptu human shields.<BR><BR>It's called defending their neighborhood. They live there.<BR><BR>The "human shields" canard is just standard, lame (but nonetheless<BR>effective) pentagon blame shifting.They much prefer (though they ever<BR>so deeply regret) killing civilians by the hundreds than risking the<BR>lives of grunts in house to house fighting.<BR><BR>
****************************************<BR><BR>John, I feel badly about taking you to task so harshly, but it had to<BR>be done. I hope you will forgive me. I know your heart's in the<BR>right place.<BR><BR>Best, Jeff Davis<BR><BR>"Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose<BR>your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they<BR>mind, and how long they remember."<BR> Martin Amis<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 11<BR>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:55:00 +0200<BR>From: Stefano Vaj <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stefano.vaj@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>stefano.vaj@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=580930c20906071555j68ab0ddchf3d871d792d49208@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>580930c20906071555j68ab0ddchf3d871d792d49208@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Harvey Newstrom<<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mail@harveynewstrom.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>mail@harveynewstrom.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> Indeed. ?Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical<BR>> terrorists. ?They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors,<BR>> etc. ?They has full access to western media and TV. ?Iraq was the
most secular<BR>> and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. ?They would have been the<BR>> least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist<BR>> radicals.<BR><BR>But the US happily managed to fix that, so that as soon as the g-men<BR>are away, the country will be well on the way to the Restoration of<BR>the Caliphate and to put Saudi Arabia to shame.<BR><BR>-- <BR>Stefano Vaj<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 12<BR>Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:23:35 +0200<BR>From: "<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>" <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>Il 07/06/2009 18.09, Harvey Newstrom ha scritto:<BR>> On Saturday 06 June 2009 8:44:10 am Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:<BR>>> 2009/6/6 John Grigg<<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=possiblepaths2050@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>possiblepaths2050@gmail.com</A>>:<BR>>><BR>>> it was only a matter<BR>>><BR>>>> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist<BR>>>> organizations and became a major supporter of
them. I just wish Pres.<BR>>>> Bush had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out,<BR>>>> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD.<BR>>> ### This is stupid.<BR>><BR>> Indeed. Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical<BR>> terrorists. They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors,<BR>> etc. They has full access to western media and TV. Iraq was the most secular<BR>> and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. They would have been the<BR>> least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist<BR>> radicals.<BR><BR>Oh my.... the naivety of the people.<BR><BR>Do you really believe that people that kill so easily have any qualms to <BR>make alliances of opportunity with anyone else?<BR>Do you really believe that these people lack of any strategic and <BR>tactical vision?<BR>Do
you really believe they are all stupid lunatics unable to restrain <BR>themselves when it expedient to do so? The cannon fodder could be unable <BR>to restain themselves, the leaders, not so much.<BR><BR>Sunni, Wahabbi and Shia could hate each other, but they will collaborate <BR>with each other against a common enemy.<BR>Iran is know to arm al-Qaeda linked and Ba'ath linked insurgent / <BR>terrorists / militias in Iraq, the sunni Hamas in Gaza, the Sunni <BR>Sudanese. Until they kill westerns or destabilize Iraq, it is only good <BR>for Iran. bin Laden son (one of many) live in Iran. al-Zarkawi moved <BR>inside Iran to heal is wounded leg before becoming the head of al Qaeda <BR>in Iraq.<BR><BR>They can squabble about how pray, but the will not let a chance to kill <BR>westerns to go wasted. There is time to settle these question after <BR>their aims are obtained and the US is out of the region.<BR><BR>Mirco<BR><BR><BR>-------------- next part
--------------<BR><BR>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <BR>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 13<BR>Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:46:11 -0500<BR>From: Damien Broderick <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thespike@satx.rr.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>thespike@satx.rr.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was:<BR> Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=7.0.1.0.2.20090607183958.02549ea8@satx.rr.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>7.0.1.0.2.20090607183958.02549ea8@satx.rr.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed<BR><BR>At 01:23 AM 6/8/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote:<BR><BR>>They can squabble about how pray, but the will not let a chance to <BR>>kill westerns to go wasted. There is time to settle these question <BR>>after their aims are obtained and the US is out of the region.<BR><BR>I usually feel that any topic on this list should be allowed to <BR>continue until the crazies are sick of shouting at each other--we can <BR>always skip the threads--but this is getting not only tiresome but <BR>ugly and seems to be throttling other discussions, rather like <BR>bindweed taking over a garden. The ExI list isn't a bigotry carnival <BR>7 days/week, or shouldn't be.<BR><BR>Just my opinion, of course; I'm not a moderator or list owner.<BR><BR>Damien Broderick <BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 14<BR>Date:
Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:13:16 -0500<BR>From: Bryan Bishop <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kanzure@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>kanzure@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: The Robot Group Mailing List <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robotgroup@puremagic.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>robotgroup@puremagic.com</A>>, Open<BR> Manufacturing <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com</A>>,<BR> <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bodyhacking@lists.caughq.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>bodyhacking@lists.caughq.org</A>, <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=kanzure@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>kanzure@gmail.com</A>, ExI chat list<BR> <<A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>>, World Transhumanist Association<BR> Discussion List <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail..yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wta-talk@transhumanism.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>wta-talk@transhumanism.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Sam O'nella<<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=barythrin@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>barythrin@yahoo.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>> Are you trying to find something you can sit down and use or use while walking/mobile?<BR><BR>I have no preference at the moment. It would be nice to find something<BR>ridiculously mobile. My main concern is that I like being able to<BR>quickly press out my special character keys for programming and other<BR>related tasks. With chorded keyboards you encounter this drawback<BR>between how many keystrokes you want to use to get to a variable and<BR>how commonly it comes up in every day usage. So, it becomes a bit of<BR>an nightmare of either different modes, mode switching, alt and<BR>switching, etc, etc. Playing it like a musical instrument isn't<BR>entirely my scheme. Another important point is that it should provide<BR>some sort of advantage over qwerty and dvorak layouts: maybe a nice<BR>typing rate increase.<BR><BR>It is not immediately obvious what the maximum on human motion and<BR>agility is. When is it a problem of personal
training, and when is it<BR>a problem of terrible keyboard design? I've been told that there are<BR>studies in ergonomics of how long it takes people to perform different<BR>subtasks in typing, like identification, targetting, pressing,<BR>lift-off, etc., though I don't know how to find those studies or<BR>whether or not anybody has bothered to use that information to help<BR>optimize some sort of automatic design of keyboard design, whether<BR>through displacing the plastic into different geometries and shapes,<BR>or doing something completely different due to the dynamic ability of<BR>the human body (degrees of freedom, or rather the domains of freedom<BR>which can be accessed with the muscles).<BR><BR>Really the design process should be flipped around. The task is to<BR>type quickly and to type a relatively equal or relatively larger set<BR>of symbols out, without breaking the laws of motion of the human body,<BR>and so on and so forth. Brain
implants might be one method, but<BR>unfortunately despite all of the literature I have read on<BR>microelectrode arrays, the best that I can find is crappy EEG studies<BR>where people look at a visual keyboard on the screen and think either<BR>"left" or "right" in order to choose a subset of the overall keyboard<BR>image in a slow attempt to choose which key to press. Not good.<BR><BR>Hm. Still need to think about this some more. Handcuffing the wrists<BR>together and having a somewhat stable plastic shape on which to use<BR>the hands to type might be one method, but then you don't get the same<BR>hand-flying-across-the-keyboard freedom that you get in conventional<BR>flat surface keyboards.<BR><BR>- Bryan<BR><A href="http://heybryan.org/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://heybryan.org/</A><BR>1 512 203 0507<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 15<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:34:33 -0500<BR>From: Bryan Bishop <<A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kanzure@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>kanzure@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com</A>, <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bodyhacking@lists.caughq.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>bodyhacking@lists.caughq.org</A>,<BR> ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>>, World Transhumanist<BR> Association Discussion List <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wta-talk@transhumanism.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>wta-talk@transhumanism.org</A>>,<BR> <A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kanzure@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>kanzure@gmail.com</A>, The Robot Group Mailing List<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robotgroup@puremagic.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>robotgroup@puremagic.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative<BR> human keyboard interfaces<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=55ad6af70906071834o318e2da6h3b3b1a99e80b40d1@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>55ad6af70906071834o318e2da6h3b3b1a99e80b40d1@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Paul D.<BR>Fernhout<<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> Bryan Bishop wrote:<BR>>> Really the design process should be flipped around. The task is to<BR>>> type quickly and to type a relatively equal or relatively larger set<BR>>> of symbols out, without breaking the laws of motion of the human body,<BR>>> and so on and so forth.<BR>><BR>> I didn't notice it in the list, but have you looked at the idea of "data<BR>> gloves"? Basically, anything that records the relative motion of your finger<BR>> joints can be used for typing input, even without finger tips contacting a<BR>> surface.<BR>> ? <A href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=data+gloves" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=data+gloves</A><BR>> You could also get haptic feedback in some and use them for 3D manipulation.<BR><BR>In the back of my mind I was considering data gloves at one point,<BR>yeah.
Haptic force feedback would help the problem that I was thinking<BR>of with them: namely, it's easier to do typing if you have some<BR>tactile sense of the topology of the interface. It seems to be how the<BR>motor cortex works, or something. So, force feedback might help. I<BR>wonder how to map it to 3D space though for different keys and motions<BR>.. that's a hard 5D image to visualize.<BR><BR>> But if you don't need to be mobile, stenographer's Stenotype keyboards might<BR>> be the fastest. And might take several months to years to train on.<BR>> ? <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype</A><BR>> "A stenotype or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or<BR>> typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. A trained court reporter<BR>> or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 225 words per minute<BR>> at very high accuracy in
order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter<BR>> test[1]. Many users of this machine can even reach 300 words per minute and<BR>> per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the<BR>> official record for American English is 375 wpm."<BR><BR>Uh, what? I don't see how this satisfies the other requirement of<BR>special characters being easily typed. IIRC, stenography machines are<BR>mostly about phonetics more than they are about specific ASCII or<BR>unicode keycodes.<BR><BR>> But voice input can easily get up to 150wpm, but with 1% to 5% errors.<BR><BR>What about special keycodes? I guess if I go learn the international<BR>phonetics language it might be easier to map different grunts to<BR>different keycodes, but that sounds kind of annoying.<BR><BR>> <A href="http://www.voicetypist.com/The%20Question%20of%20Speed%20and%20Accuracy.htm" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.voicetypist.com/The%20Question%20of%20Speed%20and%20Accuracy.htm</A><BR>> "For instance, Nuance says that Dragon NaturallySpeaking (DNS) can keep up<BR>> with a user speaking 160 words a minute, with an accuracy of 99%. In a<BR>> noise-free setting with a practiced user, that's undoubtedly the case. But<BR>> it's almost necessary to say, "So what?""<BR><BR>- Bryan<BR><A href="http://heybryan.org/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://heybryan.org/</A><BR>1 512 203 0507<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 16<BR>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:13:49 +1000<BR>From: Stathis Papaioannou <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stathisp@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>stathisp@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI]
USA Health Costs<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f21c22e30906072013u11c17ac9xe5b432785eb5926b@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>f21c22e30906072013u11c17ac9xe5b432785eb5926b@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<BR><BR>2009/6/7 <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=painlord2k@libero.it" target=_blank rel=nofollow>painlord2k@libero.it</A>>:<BR><BR>> True, to a point.<BR>> Without a real market, it is impossible to develop real alternative to the<BR>> current situation.<BR>> For example, it is not possible to have comparative quotations on the<BR>> value/cost of some procedures, like happen with the car market.<BR>> I want know the market value of a car? a look on-line or I buy a
magazine<BR>> about cars. Why I can not know how much is the price/cost of a surgical<BR>> procedure?<BR><BR>What stops you doing this? It's only if the insurance (public or<BR>private) pays 100% that the patient would not be interested in the<BR>cost, although the insurer would be.<BR><BR>>> And<BR>>> even if the patient does his own research, an environment where drug<BR>>> companies and other vendors of medical products or services can<BR>>> advertise freely will result in a bias towards unnecessary treatment.<BR>><BR>> Better a bias towards unnecessary treatments than a bias towards not enough<BR>> treatments. Then, in a free market, this become a client decision, not a<BR>> medical decision. The main point is to make possible for the buyers to know<BR>> what is buying and how much is the cost of it.<BR><BR>I don't think you can make the general statement that a bias towards<BR>unnecessary treatment is
better. As a doctor, if you think a treatment<BR>will do more good than harm, you recommend it; if you think it will do<BR>more harm than good, you recommend against it; and if you think it is<BR>likely to be neutral in its effects or don't know, you also recommend<BR>against it.<BR><BR>Absent ethical considerations, an insurer will be motivated to reject<BR>payment for treatments that are necessary, while a private doctor will<BR>be motivated to recommend such treatments. Perhaps between them the<BR>right balance will be reached.<BR><BR>>> Look at how much money is spent on "alternative" therapies with no<BR>>> scientific evidence in their favour whatsoever, and extrapolate this<BR>>> to therapies that are not completely inert, but which lack evidence to<BR>>> show that they are helpful in a particular situation.<BR>><BR>> Well, I call this "extended experimentation". If it is done with the<BR>> informed agreement of
the patient, there is nothing wrong. Main point is to<BR>> make sure the data about the treatment is recorded and used to gauge his<BR>> value.<BR>><BR>>> You might say<BR>>> that it's OK if people are willing to pay,<BR>><BR>> So I do.<BR>><BR>>> but apart from the fact<BR>>> that these therapies may do more harm than good,<BR>><BR>> "May" is the word, we are not sure.<BR>> Until the patient is correctly informed, it is his choice.<BR><BR>In general, neither public nor private insurers will pay for<BR>unnecessary or harmful treatments, but a patient is free to pay cash<BR>if he can find a willing provider. This is fair enough if the patient<BR>is informed of the risks.<BR><BR>>> it does add<BR>>> needlessly to the total cost of health care, and takes resources away<BR>>> from where they might yield greater benefit.<BR>><BR>> It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to
use someone else<BR>> money. It is the right of the people owning the money to choose how use it.<BR>> Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you<BR>> morally better than them?<BR><BR>But if it is tax money then we have a responsibility to use it<BR>appropriately. Even private hospitals in most places are regulated so<BR>that patients can be assured of a certain minimum standard.<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Stathis Papaioannou<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 17<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:39:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>From: Post Futurist <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=p0stfuturist@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>p0stfuturist@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists..extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A><BR>Subject: [ExI] 'Gendertopia'?<BR>Message-ID: <<A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=944179.89653.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>944179.89653.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR><BR> ['Gendertopia'? or when one of the interviewees says "there's a whole world of genders out there" does it mean more hyperbole and confusion? an open question]<BR>----------------------------------------------<BR>?Like plenty of other high school students,<BR>a group of about a dozen Vermont teenagers trundled into a youth center<BR>one day every week this spring to participate in an after-school<BR>program.<BR> But their program was different; it focused on gender.<BR> The nine-week program, partially funded by the Burlington School District, was held at
Vermont's Queer Youth Center and called "Gendertopia."<BR> Gay,<BR>lesbian and straight students discussed a wide range of topics, from<BR>the characters in the book and movie "Twilight," to taking photos<BR>around the city that show the different ways gender is portrayed in<BR>popular culture.<BR> "Most people come into it<BR>thinking, 'Oh, there's two genders and two sexualities' ... ," said<BR>David Kingsbury, a 16-year-old junior at Burlington High School who<BR>signed up for the program. "People assume it's boy and girl, but it's<BR>so much more than that. There's a whole world out there full of<BR>different genders."<BR> The program is among the<BR>first of its kind to be funded, in part, with tax dollars, said<BR>Christopher Neff, the executive director of Outright Vermont, the social
service organization running Gendertopia.<BR> Neither<BR>the program nor the school district's participation triggered any<BR>objection. The tempered reaction locally to the program shows how far<BR>Outright Vermont and the issues it raises has moved into the main<BR>stream of youth social service organizations.<BR> "It's<BR>got queer in its name. It scares the heck out of people. It's so<BR>important that people be able to see beyond any concerns or<BR>misconceptions that they have," said Eliza Byard, the executive<BR>director of the New York-based Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education<BR>Network, which has 35 chapters across the country. "Outright Vermont is<BR>fulfilling its mission in the most wonderful way."<BR> The<BR>program was designed to help young people identify the subtle
signals<BR>used to express gender and how not being aware of those signals can<BR>lower self esteem and possibly lead to an increase in at-risk<BR>activities like substance abuse or dropping out of school, Neff said.<BR> "We<BR>often see a lot of homophobia or transphobia that happens on the basis<BR>of how someone looks," Neff said. "If you are making fun of me because<BR>I am wearing a pink shirt and that's sort of expressing my femininity,<BR>my feminine side, that translates into homophobia, but it has nothing<BR>to do with whether I'm straight or whether I'm dating boys or whether<BR>I'm dating girls. It has to do with the fact that I'm wearing a pink<BR>shirt."<BR> Neff said the significance of the<BR>program is more than the money and the relatively small number of young<BR>people who participate.<BR>
"It's incredibly<BR>symbolic and very powerful," he said. "I was incredibly proud to be<BR>associated with them and I thought this partnership, this very unique<BR>partnership, between a queer youth center and a school district to run<BR>a gender identity based program was a new national model."<BR> Burlington School Superintendent Jeanne Collins said no one has objected to the program.<BR> "The<BR>district has been in the forefront on this topic for at least a decade,<BR>if not longer," Collins said. "We are very sensitive to celebrating the<BR>differences in people and accepting people for who they are and what<BR>they bring to the table."<BR> She said a factor that helped keep the program non controversial was that it was voluntary.<BR>
"We<BR>have very robust after school program," Collins said. "This is one of<BR>the options for the students who are interested. They get a lot out of<BR>it that will help them be much more inclusive and accepting of<BR>differences in their own future, which can only help them be<BR>successful."<BR> Steve Cable, of Rutland the founder<BR>of Vermont Renewal, an organization that promotes what he calls<BR>traditional family values, said he wasn't familiar with "Gendertopia,"<BR>but he knew Outright Vermont. He said he was supportive of the group's anti-bullying efforts, but not what he said was its focus on adolescent sexuality.<BR> "It<BR>just makes me really nervous that sexuality and these very complicated<BR>social behaviors are being normalized and talked about with kids who<BR>haven't figured out even their life
yet," Cable said. "I know that<BR>Outright Vermont promotes all gender identities and expression of gender identities, no matter how weird that might be."<BR><BR>In 2000, Vermont was the first state that passed civil unions for same-sex couples and earlier this year was the first to pass gay marriage without being required to do so by the courts. It's also in the forefront with laws to protect gender identity and sexual orientation.<BR><BR>Outright Vermont describes itself as "one of the longest standing queer<BR>organizations in Vermont" and the only one focused on young people.<BR>Neff said that for years his organization has done anti-bullying<BR>presentations related to sexual orientation and gender identity in<BR>schools across the state. He said the presentations have been<BR>universally well received.<BR>Byard said a number of national organizations have programs for<BR>girls that help them deal with the pressures that can lead to
eating<BR>disorders or pressures that girls feel to be thin or beautiful.<BR>"Now it's only relatively recently that there has been real<BR>focus on the damaging effect of these same expectations on young men,"<BR>Byard said..<BR>About 40 students signed up for the program, Neff said, and<BR>about 12 attended the weekly program. Sometimes the group watched a<BR>movie or had food. Much of the discussion was led by the students<BR>themselves, and it wasn't just for gay and lesbian students.<BR>"I'm straight, but I don't like using that word because then it<BR>feels like if you're gay then you're crooked, you're not meant to grow<BR>up in a certain way," Sophia Manzi, 15, a Burlington high school freshman,<BR>said during this year's final "Gendertopia" meeting. "I come because<BR>it's a really good program. The people, it doesn't matter what sexual<BR>orientation you are, they totally come in with open arms."<BR><BR>Neff said "Gendertopia" wasn't about
sexuality or who people are attracted to.<BR>"We're really clear that gender and gender identify is separate<BR>from sexual orientation," Neff said. "Hugh Grant and Russell Crowe have<BR>the same sex, they're both male and they're both heterosexual. But they<BR>have very different gender presentations. One is sort of seen as much<BR>more masculine than the other."<BR>Burlington High School After school Coordinator Amy Mills said<BR>no decision had been made yet on whether to run Gendertopia again in<BR>the fall, but she'd like to.<BR><BR>"I think it worked well," Mills said. "They seem to have a lot of fun."<BR> <BR><BR><BR> <BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20090607/3418565f/attachment-0001.html" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20090607/3418565f/attachment-0001.html</A>><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 18<BR>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:04:05 +1000<BR>From: Stathis Papaioannou <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stathisp@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>stathisp@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f21c22e30906072104l555c3b67vd83859bde5f94831@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>f21c22e30906072104l555c3b67vd83859bde5f94831@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<BR><BR>2009/6/8 Lee Corbin <<A
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lcorbin@rawbw.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>lcorbin@rawbw.com</A>>:<BR><BR>> In the present case, some people are biased in<BR>> America's favor, and others resent the U.S.<BR>><BR>> Why America? Easy: since the end of WWII, the U.S.<BR>> has been the "big cheese" among nations, and so<BR>> of course garners the most attention. It also follows<BR>> that the moral question "Is America doing the right<BR>> thing" far outweighs "Is Burkina Faso doing the<BR>> right thing?"<BR><BR>It's also makes a difference that you're part of the American<BR>alliance. People tend to fall into two camps over this: those who say<BR>"my country, right or wrong" and those who feel that it's their duty<BR>to make sure their country does the right thing, since they have some<BR>control over it.<BR><BR>>> And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that<BR>>>
innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding<BR>>> among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure<BR>>> that America would never be able to threaten other countries again.<BR>><BR>> We see some examples of what I'm saying right here.<BR>> How do we know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda delight<BR>> in crimes against humanity? I don't think so. It<BR>> simply stands to reason, however, that their humanitarian<BR>> impulses are, due to their background, less refined than<BR>> those of the west. If they cheer when a couple of thousand<BR>> of American civilians die in a terrorist act, we have to<BR>> take their history (and even their religion) into account.<BR>> They haven't been living in the twentieth century long,<BR>> if at all.<BR>><BR>> Likewise, how do we know that "all the Iraqi [insurgents]<BR>> wanted to do was make sure that America would never
be<BR>> able to threaten other countries again"? They have their<BR>> own reasons for resenting "the big cheese", a lot of it<BR>> cultural, and it's a mistake for western readers to<BR>> imagine that those reasons are identical to their own.<BR>> Far from it.<BR><BR>Humanitarian impulses are not at the forefront when your country is<BR>being invaded. If the US nuking Japan was morally justifiable, then<BR>would it also have been morally justifiable for Iraq to nuke a couple<BR>of large US cities to prevent an invasion?<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Stathis Papaioannou<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 19<BR>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:25:21 +1000<BR>From: Stathis Papaioannou <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stathisp@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>stathisp@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: ExI chat list <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all?<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f21c22e30906072125y5b1e3657u3a24cef3a034790e@mail.gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>f21c22e30906072125y5b1e3657u3a24cef3a034790e@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<BR><BR>2009/6/8 BillK <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pharos@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>pharos@gmail.com</A>>:<BR><BR>> The monkeys in cages killing themselves with drugs has led futurists<BR>> to speculate that transhumans will wirehead themselves into oblivion<BR>> because they will be unable to resist the overwhelming pleasure. This<BR>> is proposed as one explanation for the Fermi problem. But if this<BR>> research is correct, then that won't happen. If our future lives are<BR>>
pleasant and fulfilling, then wireheading will just be an occasional<BR>> pleasure and not a life-threatening addiction.<BR><BR>Having complete access to the source code of your brain would not be<BR>like drug addiction or wireheading. This relates to the concept of<BR>second order desires, or desires about desires: "I wish I didn't have<BR>such an urge to use heroin; I wish I got as much pleasure from going<BR>for a walk as I do from using heroin." If the addict could simply<BR>adjust his brain in accordance with these wishes, there wouldn't be a<BR>problem.<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Stathis Papaioannou<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 20<BR>Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:17:07 -0700<BR>From: "spike" <<A href="http://us..mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spike66@att.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>spike66@att.net</A>><BR>To: "'ExI chat list'" <<A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] future fizzle<BR>Message-ID: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR><BR>> <BR>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM, spike wrote:<BR>> > At first it would be only women and female embryos. Then <BR>> there will <BR>> > be a planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live <BR>> on Mars. <BR>> > Imagine being the first guy there. Thirty to fifty women, some of <BR>> > whom have never even seen a man, otherwise the planet is <BR>> all yours. <BR>> > Would that be cool, or what?<BR>> ><BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Or.......<BR>> <BR>> 30 to 50 women saying,<BR>> "You want to do WHAT???!!!! Have you gone totally insane???<BR>> Where's my tazer?"<BR>> <BR>> BillK<BR><BR>What would happen
BillK? If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on<BR>Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, any speculations anyone? I<BR>think they would somehow have an instinct to take that first guy for a roll<BR>in the hay, and might actually find it delightful. Don't know however.<BR><BR>spike<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>extropy-chat mailing list<BR><A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</A><BR><BR><BR>End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 69, Issue 13<BR>********************************************<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></td></tr></table><br>