<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Dec 19, 2009, at 1:28 PM, Gordon Swobe wrote:</div><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px; ">You state above that you can deduce consciousness from behavior. You must think then that consciousness plays a role in human behavior</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div></span></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">Consciousness is a high level description as is pressure, but it is not the only valid description. It is true that pressure made the balloon expand but it is also true that air molecules hitting the inside of the balloon made it expand and molecules know nothing about pressure. It is true that I scratched my nose because I wanted too but its also true that it happened because an electrochemical signal was sent from my brain to the nerves in my hand.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">and reject epiphenomenalism as does Searle</span></font></div></blockquote><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">No I do not, to say that the mind can move the body is an entirely reasonable way to describe whats going on but not the only way. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"><br></span></font></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">else you could not deduce its existence from behavior. </span></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><br><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">I can deduce it but you and Searle cannot.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"><br></span></font></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">I think you mean infer, not deduce, but anyway..</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div></blockquote><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">No, its a deduction not a inference. I deduce that evolution is true, I deduce that evolution is blind to consciousness and can only see behavior, I know from direct experience (which outranks both deduction and induction) that evolution has produced consciousness at least once and probably many more times, therefore I conclude the consciousness MUST be a byproduct of intelligent behavior and you can't have intelligence without consciousness. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">You agree with Searle that consciousness exists</span></font></blockquote></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">Of course it does. Some people claim not to believe in consciousness but I don't believe them and think they are just trying to be provocative. Everybody believes in consciousness.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> and that it plays a role in human behavior. So what's your beef with him regarding evolution?</span></font></blockquote></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;">Searle says intelligent behavior is possible without consciousness, Darwin says it is not. I'm putting my money on Darwin.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"> John K Clark<br><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="7"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 33px;"><br></span></font></span></span></font></div></span></div></div></body></html>