<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Jan 6, 2010, at 1:20 PM, <a href="mailto:x@extropica.org">x@extropica.org</a> wrote:</div><div><br></div><div>Me:</div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Verdana; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><blockquote type="cite">we learned from the history of Evolution that consciousness is easy but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">intelligence is hard.<br></blockquote><br>So why don't you agree with me that intelligence must have "existed"<br>(been recognizable, if there had been an observer) for quite a long<br>time </span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Verdana; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div>Because we learned from the history of Evolution that consciousness is easy but<br></div><div>intelligence is hard.</div></span></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Verdana; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">before evolutionary processes stumbled upon the additional,<br>supervisory, hack of self-awareness<br></span></blockquote><div><br></div>What you just said is logically absurd. If consciousness doesn't effect intelligence then there is no way Evolution could have "stumbled upon" the trick of generating consciousness because it would convey no more adaptive advantage than eyes or pigment does for creatures that live all their life in dark caves. In short if even one conscious being exists on Planet Earth and if Evolution is true then the Turing Test works; and if the Turing Test doesn't work then neither does Evolution.<br><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Verdana; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">novel hacks like self-awareness discovered at some point, exploited<br>for the additional fitness they confer</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Fine, if true and consciousness aids fitness then it can be deduced from behavior. Either you can have intelligence without consciousness or you can not. The propositions lead to mutually contradictory conclusions, they can't both be right and you can't claim both as your own. You've got to make a choice.</div></div><div><br></div><div> John K Clark <br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></body></html>