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<DIV>
<DIV> After 4 years of dedication I've left the Universalist Unitarian
church . My view is the UU church is good to a point . We lost our
minister , the board elect is now republican and atheist and
the result is a 'fall in line' approach to a don't make waves agenda.
The spiritual empowerment i need from a church is trust in
it's people the UU church I left is based on faith in
it's policies and not its members. </DIV>
<DIV> Dana</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 6/3/2010 8:00:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Send
extropy-chat mailing list submissions to<BR>
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Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat
digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Re: to install
(John Grigg)<BR> 2. Re: two observations (John
Grigg)<BR> 3. Jeanne Robinson, wife of Spider Robinson, has died
due to<BR> cancer (John Grigg)<BR> 4. Re: to
install (Tom Nowell)<BR> 5. Re: to install
(samantha)<BR> 6. Re: to install (samantha)<BR> 7. Re:
to install
(samantha)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
1<BR>Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:54:36 -0700<BR>From: John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050@gmail.com><BR>To: ddraig@pobox.com, ExI chat list
<extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] to
install<BR>Message-ID:<BR>
<AANLkTimbNpSYqefHrnsfkkOCUvm_IF4jMfRuitukA-7c@mail.gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>Hold on here, for those of you who
reject conservative mainstream/old<BR>school denominations & faiths, why
not attend a Unitarian Universalist<BR>congregation?? LOL<BR><BR>I have
attended Unitarian services a few times, and they definitely teach
ethics<BR>(special classes for the children) & also have fun social
gatherings. I am<BR>very impressed with what I have heard about their
"OWL" training<BR>program to teach kids about sex.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>On
6/2/10, ddraig <ddraig@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>> On 3 June 2010 13:19,
Anna Taylor <femmechakra@yahoo.ca>
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>> Why shouldn't there be a place that
people can go to feel loved?<BR>>><BR>><BR>> What if you are gay,
or of some wildly different faith? What then? It seems<BR>> to me that
pretty much all churches are places you can go to feel loved *as<BR>> long
as you fit into their narrow definition of allowable
memesets*<BR>><BR>><BR>> If I want to feel loved, I'll go to rave.
Ooooooodles of love, gushing out<BR>> all over everyone
there.<BR>><BR>><BR>> I don't buy into this concept that you need to
believe in some giant<BR>> invisible sapce-wizard to lead a moral life. I
grew up reading a lot of<BR>> greek and roman classics from an early age. I
am an extremely moral and<BR>> upright person. Annoyingly so, according to
most of the people I know. My<BR>> parents are *fiercely* anti-religion and
the only time I have *ever* been to<BR>> a church is for a wedding. Or a
funeral.<BR>><BR>> Sometimes I'll rock up to cathedral to ooh and aaah
at the architecture.<BR>> It seems to me if you can't teach your children
morals and values without<BR>> some external (and bullshit-based) structure
and support group, you're<BR>> failing as a parent. I'd say you should not
have had kids at all, but that<BR>> tends to get breeders all flippy-outy
and punchy-punchy.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Dwayne<BR>>
--<BR>> ddraig@pobox.com irc.deoxy.org
#chat<BR>>
...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...<BR>>
http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg<BR>> our aim is
wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless
sleep<BR>><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
2<BR>Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:09:28 -0700<BR>From: John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050@gmail.com><BR>To: ExI chat list
<extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] two
observations<BR>Message-ID:<BR>
<AANLkTimQ2hKnLgKGwOll684dnVDg0ppHJPbSmZPqIQxc@mail.gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>When I was new to Arizona I encountered
a large soft object bouncing<BR>off my head. I looked down and there was
a fairly large tarantula who<BR>was obviously used to walking on the ceiling,
but it had gotten too<BR>big for such an activity and so gravity took over!
lol<BR><BR>I remember another time when a large white spider (the size of a
large<BR>tarantula, I assume it was one) came inside and ran around the
place<BR>like a speed demon! I'd never seen a tarantula move like this
(I<BR>always thought they were fairly slow moving creatures) and I could
not<BR>catch the lightning fast arachnid. I opened up a door and
amazingly,<BR>the spider ran right out and I never saw it again. I
sometimes wonder<BR>if there was a genetic engineering lab
nearby...<BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR>On 6/2/10, spike <spike66@att.net>
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> ...On Behalf Of Kevin
Freels<BR>> Subject: Re: [ExI] two
observations<BR>><BR>> >>I think it's interesting the
way spiders fly...<BR>> <BR>> >...As I turned
my head to follow I could see hundreds, or perhaps<BR>> thousands of spider
silk strands shimmering in the sky. It was weird, but<BR>>
beautiful...<BR>><BR>><BR>> Spiders are an example of bugs with the
habit of doing something in unison,<BR>> like your thousands of silk
strands example. My own is when I went on a<BR>> motorcycle ride in
the Mojave Desert on a hot spring morning in 1984, soon<BR>> after having
moved there. I had never seen a tarantula, but that day I saw<BR>>
one, stopped, examined it. Then another and another, as I headed out
toward<BR>> Death Valley. Then dozens per mile, crossing the road,
from east to west,<BR>> all of them walking walking walking, like something
out of a horror flick.<BR>> Oy. Good thing I like bugs,
jeeeeez.<BR>><BR>> That was the only time I ever actually saw a
tarantula migration in<BR>> progress, even though I went out there on that
same road dozens of times.<BR>><BR>> spike<BR>><BR>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSIGcWATJ3g<BR>>
<BR>><BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> extropy-chat mailing
list<BR>> extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org<BR>>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat<BR>><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
3<BR>Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:19:55 -0700<BR>From: John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050@gmail.com><BR>To: ExI chat list
<extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, World<BR> Transhumanist
Association Discussion List<BR>
<wta-talk@transhumanism.org>, transfigurism<BR>
<transfigurism@googlegroups.com><BR>Subject: [ExI] Jeanne Robinson, wife
of Spider Robinson, has died due<BR> to
cancer<BR>Message-ID:<BR>
<AANLkTin9vAgfy5MeBlkktMvCU723QQwbiEVFrmfXvYYk@mail.gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>One of my favorite science fiction
writers, Spider Robinson, has<BR>shared this about the passing of his wife
from cancer.<BR><BR>If you have not read Robinson's the "Callahan's Saloon"
novels, you<BR>should. They are among the most humanistic and touching
sf/fantasy<BR>stories I have ever read.<BR><BR>Subject: Buchi Eihei In
pacem<BR>From: Spider<BR><BR>Jeanne Robinson left this life at about 4:45
Sunday afternoon, a gentle<BR>smile on her face.<BR><BR>Her departure was
quite peaceful and she was in no pain at all.<BR><BR>(Buchi Eihei means
"dancing wisdom, eternal peace". It's the name Jeanne's<BR>Soto
Zen<BR>instructor bestowed on
her).<BR><BR>--Spider"<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
4<BR>Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:41:59 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: Tom Nowell
<nebathenemi@yahoo.co.uk><BR>To:
extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org<BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] to install<BR>Message-ID:
<718218.72776.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=utf-8<BR><BR><BR>Spike wrote:" In my own case in
having to instill moral values in my own 3 yr old son, I am stuck in a wildly
paradoxical position. I can allow him to go with his mother to church,
but I am in a position of having to carefully explain that while the ethical
and moral values are OK, the entire theory behind them, the entire memetic
infrastructure in support of<BR>it, is *completely* wrong, no truth there at
all.<BR><BR>So what would go on in the mind of a child, given such
instruction? I<BR>haven't said anything yet, but I flatly refuse to tell
him anything I know<BR>to be false.<BR><BR>spike"<BR><BR>Here we hit the big
question - how to install a filter against memetic infiltration that will last
until adult reasoning is sufficiently developed and will hopefully provide
backup when they're adults. <BR><BR>A three year-old is still at the stage
where magical thinking comes naturally. You read the them a fairy tale and
read them a short story by a master of western literature, and they'll
probably think the fairy tale makes more sense than the literature. As
psychology is full of contradictory studies, I honestly couldn't say how long
a period of magical thinking is necessary for normal development.<BR><BR>The
traditional method of keeping your child free from the strange ideas of people
not like yourself is to ram their brains full of the traditions and ideas of
people like yourself so anything they're exposed to will bounce off your
pre-installed ideas. But you've dumped the traditions of your people in order
to embrace shiny and new philosophical ideas of the future.<BR><BR>So, do you
try and teach them sensibly and hope they don't pick up strange memes from the
people they meet at school? Or do you go radical transhumanist and make up
fairy stories about the future - teach Nick Bostrom's parable of the great
dragon as if it is prophecy, read Dr Broderick's tales for children each
night, and tell them that there's no such thing as a soul or how do you hope
to be uploaded? Admittedly, this may cause some dogmatic thinking on their
part when they're grown up, but looking at this list's arguments there's
plenty of Idees fixe amongst articulate and apparently rational
transhumanists.<BR><BR>Finally, to play devil's advocate - what if your
children just aren't as rational and intelligent as you? Of course, your child
is special and will go on to do great things and live out your dreams by
proxy. But just suppose for a minute your cosy illusion is utterly wrong, and
there's nothing special about your child - they're firmly in the 95-105 IQ
range, no more given to logic or dreaming than any other kid in their class -
are you quite sure your methods for protecting them from harmful memes will
still work?<BR><BR>Tom<BR><BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 5<BR>Date: Thu,
03 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0700<BR>From: samantha <sjatkins@mac.com><BR>To:
ExI chat list <extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] to
install<BR>Message-ID: <4C078AA7.108@mac.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<BR><BR>Anna Taylor
wrote:<BR>> Thank you Jef. Yes I watched it when you posted it on
facebook. Again, my... was exactly what you would call Catholic or
others would call synoguoges or place of worship. My comment was not in
referal to a suggestive church or religion it was about "churches", which I
believe should be called: A place to help others at no cost. <BR>How is
that? There are huge costs. They instill mystical claptrap as
<BR>the basis for everything they teach. It becomes a sort of package
deal <BR>in the minds of many. The claptrap is the reason why the
morality is so <BR>and the reason why every thing good in their lives is good
is because <BR>they are good. Vicious circle. This is not by
accident. Religions are <BR>designed to install themselves in this
way. Instead of learning ethics <BR>on the basis of reason and reality a
version of ethics is learned based <BR>on mysticism and acceptance on
faith. This is incredibly costly. It <BR>splits the mind that
takes it seriously. Most minds don't take it that <BR>seriously
out of self-defense. As a result ethics becomes this <BR>untrustworthy
realm one gives lip service to but really does not have <BR>integrated at
all. Morality is split from reality. The mind
<BR>compartmentalizes after all and simply will no longer look at some
<BR>things deeply. Very costly.<BR><BR>On top of this churches
generally encourage heavy tithing and other <BR>volunteering of "time and
talents". More costs. <BR><BR>> Probably the wrong choice of
words. How about "A place to be nice?". <BR>I actually agree with
part of that. A place where you just let down the <BR>card and open your
heart right on up. Seems to me we can do that and <BR>make places to do
with one another without all the rest though.<BR><BR><BR>> When I replied
it was because someone mentioned, "well parents should just teach their
children". My apology if that wasn't clear. Not all adults have
been well taught, where can they go to get spiritual help?<BR>What exactly is
this "spiritual" help? You mean just life help and <BR>learning to be as
well as you can be and enjoy life and be a boon to <BR>self and others?
You don't need religion for that. There is humanism, <BR>self-help
groups, therapy, trusted friends, support systems - all <BR>without church or
religion.<BR><BR>> I still think churches should be a place of
spiritual growth but i'm aware that it's not that easy. Just as it isn't
just that easy to ban churches and expect spiritual growth to simply appear
without any form of guidance.<BR><BR>Same question. What is "spiritual
growth" as opposed to just plain <BR>growth as a human being (and
more)? I am very curious about that. I <BR>know from
experience that it can feel different, very different. But I <BR>am not
at all sure why or that the why is something to be trusted.<BR><BR>-
samantha<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
6<BR>Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:07:44 -0700<BR>From: samantha
<sjatkins@mac.com><BR>To: ddraig@pobox.com, ExI chat list
<extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] to
install<BR>Message-ID: <4C078D00.203@mac.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>ddraig wrote:<BR>>
On 3 June 2010 13:19, Anna Taylor <femmechakra@yahoo.ca <BR>>
<mailto:femmechakra@yahoo.ca>> wrote:<BR>>
<BR>><BR>> Why shouldn't there be a place that
people can go to feel loved? <BR>><BR>><BR>> What if you are gay, or
of some wildly different faith? What then? It <BR>> seems to me that pretty
much all churches are places you can go to <BR>> feel loved *as long as you
fit into their narrow definition of <BR>> allowable
memesets*<BR><BR>Depends on the church. As the Mormons came up recently
I most <BR>definitely would not recommend being or attempting to become Mormon
if <BR>you are queer in gender and/or sexuality. I had friends in both
camps <BR>that went through a great deal of pain and damage due to the Mormon
<BR>stance on such things. It was no accident that the Mormons were
<BR>strongly involved in stopping gay marriage in California. <BR><BR>That
said, there are open and accepting congregations in various faith
<BR>traditions.<BR>><BR>> If I want to feel loved, I'll go to rave.
Ooooooodles of love, gushing <BR>> out all over everyone
there.<BR>><BR>Oh yeah. Very powerful too. And for that group
"psychic bond" thing I <BR>recommend a good wiccan ritual. Don't
buy into the bizarre mysticism <BR>but way more of that energy than I ever
felt in church. <BR><BR>><BR>> I don't buy into this concept that you
need to believe in some giant <BR>> invisible sapce-wizard to lead a moral
life. I grew up reading a lot <BR>> of greek and roman classics from an
early age. I am an extremely moral <BR>> and upright person. Annoyingly so,
according to most of the people I <BR>> know. My parents are *fiercely*
anti-religion and the only time I have <BR>> *ever* been to a church is for
a wedding. Or a funeral.<BR>><BR>> Sometimes I'll rock up to cathedral
to ooh and aaah at the architecture.<BR>> It seems to me if you can't teach
your children morals and values <BR>> without some external (and
bullshit-based) structure and support <BR>> group, you're failing as a
parent. I'd say you should not have had <BR>> kids at all, but that tends
to get breeders all flippy-outy and <BR>> punchy-punchy.<BR><BR>Yes.
I would go further and say that you can't really teach morals and <BR>values
without screwing up their minds unless you teach it devoid of <BR>mystical
nonsense.<BR><BR>- samantha<BR><BR>-------------- next part
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7<BR>Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:21:51 -0700<BR>From: samantha
<sjatkins@mac.com><BR>To: ExI chat list
<extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><BR>Subject: Re: [ExI] to
install<BR>Message-ID: <4C07904F.7020304@mac.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>spike
wrote:<BR>> <BR>><BR>> <BR>>> ...On Behalf Of
Anna Taylor<BR>>> Subject: [ExI] to install<BR>>><BR>>> The
conversation went, "Well if you are going to go to <BR>>> church, you
might well as be..." <BR>>><BR>>> I agree. I think churches
are a really good place to learn <BR>>> moral and valued skills...
Does eveyone agree?<BR>>><BR>>> Just curious<BR>>>
Anna<BR>>> <BR>><BR>> Hi Anna, goooood
question. In my own case in having to instill moral values<BR>> in my
own 3 yr old son, I am stuck in a wildly paradoxical position.<BR>At that age
the basic lesson, which may not take for a few years, is <BR>that other people
are just like him inside and their feelings and needs <BR>matter to them the
same way his do to him. I remember very distinctly <BR>the moment in my
childhood when I really got that all the way through. <BR>Much of
the rest of interpersonal ethics grows out of that. The other <BR>part
of morality is learning to not attempt to bullshit reality in any <BR>way
whatsoever. It is learning to be rational and seeks to "make it
<BR>real", to actually achieve, gain and maintain what you actually value
<BR>including the wellbeing of others you value. That honest to
reality <BR>thing will not make life easy with respect to so many he will
interact <BR>with who are nearly explicitly taught to be dishonest or that
their is <BR>something more important than reality. But it is very very
important.<BR><BR>> I can<BR>> allow him to go with his
mother to church, but I am in a position of having<BR>> to carefully
explain that while the ethical and moral values are OK,<BR>I don't think the
ethical and moral values taught their are ok. They <BR>are based on a
non-reality set of premises and thus are ungrounded
<BR>pronouncements. They teach that anything done for yourself,
because <BR>you value it (however rationally) is probably problematic and at
the <BR>least not nearly so good as doing things for "others" - any old
others, <BR>preferably for complete strangers one has no rational interest in
<BR>whatsoever. This is a near complete perversion of honest sane
ethical <BR>and moral values. <BR>> the<BR>> entire
theory behind them, the entire memetic infrastructure in support of<BR>>
it, is *completely* wrong, no truth there at all.<BR>>
<BR><BR>If they basis is wrong then in effect saying the ethics is ok is
saying <BR>that ungrounded ethical commandments that cannot be understood to
the <BR>root are "ok". Do you really think so? <BR>> So what would go
on in the mind of a child, given such instruction? I<BR>> haven't
said anything yet, but I flatly refuse to tell him anything I know<BR>> to
be false.<BR>> <BR>That is good. Careful of sins of
omission though. :)<BR><BR>- samantha<BR><BR>-------------- next part
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