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The Avantguardian wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
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<pre wrap="">----- Original Message ----
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">From: BillK <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pharos@gmail.com"><pharos@gmail.com></a>
To: ExI chat list <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"><extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org></a>
Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:30:29 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Book: THE LIGHTS IN THE TUNNEL
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">2010/6/5 Samantha wrote:
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Not possible. Those programs and the mentality
behind them are destroying
the economy that is the real thing that keeps
anarchy, and mass destitute
conditions, at bay. The programs are
parasitical. They produce nothing
but only consume. When the host, the
economy, dies they also die.
</pre>
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<pre wrap=""><!---->
To call people on welfare parasites is an unfair characterization.
</pre>
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<br>
To imply I did so is unfair. I called government and the programs
themselves parasitical. They quite obviously are. They feed on and
require a relatively healthy economy to survive. If carried too far
they kill the economy. They are doing so today, especially when you
count unfunded liabilities. Look up how the federal budget breaks down
and see for yourself.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Docile sheep-like consumption is all modern society expects or wants of most individuals whatever the rhetoric might be.
</pre>
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<br>
I don't see what this assumption has to do with whether such programs
can really help or not. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Society actively discourages them from producing anything by placing high barriers to entry in most businesses and by promoting economies of scale that individual producers cannot compete against. </pre>
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<br>
Utter hogwash. The economy is littered with big companies down that
were run out of someone's living room not that long ago. The world is
changing quickly and existing businesses are often not nimble enough.
Little guys steal the cheese. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Furthermore it is not like welfare money disappears into a black hole because the recipients don't hoard it. They spend it on fast food and cheap manufactured goods putting most if not all of it right back into the economy where it inevitably ends up back on the balance sheets of the rich the next fiscal quarter.</pre>
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They spend it on low-level consumables in other words. No new value is
created for the value consumed. Economically that is a black hole. It
raises the funds of fast food places and cheap goods and some vices but
not a whole lot else. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> And if these days a good deal of the money flows to China via Wal-Mart, then it is not entirely the fault of the consumer on the dole.
</pre>
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<br>
It is largely the fault of a system that penalizes production and
rewards mere accumulation of paper whether any real value is created or
not.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Not entirely but there are
similarities. Both over-promised at home and
over extended massively
abroad. Both played financial games to attempt to
pretend all is well.
All dying empires do this.
</pre>
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<pre wrap=""><!---->
All empires die but empires can be centuries dying and there are decisions to be made that can either delay or hasten this ones demise.</pre>
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<br>
We don't need to be an empire and it wasn't the original idea. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> In our favor we are still officially a republic albeit a corrupt one.</pre>
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<br>
Utterly corrupt. If you look at the situation honestly we might pass
for a not totally out-of-control fascist state (largely so-called
"state capitalism" and out of control government power). <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> And corruption can be cleaned up at least in the short term until such time as the safeguards put into place are again circumvented.</pre>
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It can only be cleaned up by wiping most of the current assumptions and
structure of government. No stop gap "corruption fixes" will do a darn
thing except raise a bit of dust.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Doomsaying seems to be in fashion these days but if we survived the Great Depression, then we can survive this downturn.</pre>
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<br>
Actually, much that was important did not survive the GD intact. We
aren't in as good a shape for weathering such an event as we were
then. Not in terms of savings, in terms of self-supporting families
and farms, in terms of general self-reliance, in terms of respect for
freedom. I expect, I am extremely sorry to say, a profound crash in
this decade. I will only expect to end up wrong if some very serious
tech miracle gives us (western civ) a major shot in the arm.
Otherwise we are much too over-extended and face too many very serious
challenges. Cheap, plentiful, relatively clean energy would be one
such tech miracle. MNT or AGI would be others. Good launch and
space exploitation tech would work. But note that all of these except
possibly energy tech have a longer than decade likely timeline.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:901107.66893.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> That is not to say that there are not some really important lessons to be learned. We might not be so fortunate next time around.
</pre>
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<br>
Trouble is, I think you may have some of the wrong "lessons" in mind
and unfortunately, so do most people. So when the stress gets much
higher (which it will) they will clamor for precisely the most wrong
and some of the most dangerous things. <br>
<br>
- samantha<br>
<br>
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