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Gregory Jones wrote:
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--- On <b>Wed, 6/16/10, samantha <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com"><sjatkins@mac.com></a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
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<div>Gregory Jones wrote: </div>
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--- On <b>Wed, 6/16/10, Damien Broderick <i><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="http://us.mc815.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thespike@satx.rr.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:thespike@satx.rr.com"><thespike@satx.rr.com></a></i></b>
wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>>...every atom and every photon somehow
participating in the activity of thinking and creating.</div>
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> Is thinking and creating all there is?...</div>
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<div>Ja!</div>
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Are you thinking or creating per se when playing with your child or
doing many of the things you do and enjoy every day? I don't think you
can say that all you love to do or experience is thinking or creating.
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<div>> Is it enough for you to be happy?...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thinking and creating makes me happy. The computronium
would think about ways to be happy, and create new ways to be happy and
have fun. Compare the world we have now to the one that was 300 years
ago. Why is it so much better now? Because we have information, we
have so many cool things that the old ones didn't have.</div>
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Thinking and creating make you happy but I doubt very much they are the
only things that make you happy. There are many many ways to have fun,
enjoy, experience, be. Some things are not that much better now than
they were before simply because they did not require modern tech to be
wonderfully enjoyable then or now.<br>
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<div>> Why involve every atom and photon?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I see no point in wasting them. I don't like to see
things dead. I want everything alive, as alive as it can be, thinking,
playing, creating fun! Life is good, fun is good, so more of it is
better, and as much as can be had is best.</div>
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What do you mean "waste"? The universe is utterly beautiful and most
of it is not busy thinking and creating as far as we can tell. I don't
consider that a "waste" particularly. Now and then I have to remind
myself "Go outside. The graphics are utterly mind blowing!" :)<br>
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<div> > That seems rather pointlessly absolutist to me...</div>
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<div>It seems rather pointfully absolutist to me. {8-]</div>
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Nice throwaway without addressing what I am talking about. <br>
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<div>> And it will never ever happen anyway without
breaking the speed of light barrier...</div>
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<div>Hmm, I don't propose anything illegal. Obeying the
known natural laws, my endgame vision is using everything we have to
maximize sentience.</div>
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If you cannot do superluminal communication and travel then there is no
way that any statement of harnessing every atom and all energy of the
universe for thinking and creating makes sense. This is part of why I
say that the statement itself smells a bit funny.<br>
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<div>> What about the 96% of all that is that isn't
atoms and photons? - s<br>
<br>
We lose that. For now. Unless or until all that computronium figures
out how to make use of it to create more computronium, in which case
the fun is multiplied by a factor of 25.</div>
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<div>Look at it this way. If we consider all the real
thinking going on in this solar system is happening in the minds of
humans, and there are about 6e9 of us now, and on average we are about
70 kg each, that's about 4e11 kg participating in human level
sentience. The mass of the earth is about 6e24 kg, so less than 1 part
in 10^13, less than a tenth of a part per trillion is really having
fun, and there is probably about another couple orders of magnitude of
metals in the solar system outside of earth, so one part in a
quadrillion in the solar system is participating in human thought.</div>
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Sure. I have no problem with getting as much room for creation,
thought, experience, consciounsness and so on as possible. Or for
expanding the possibilities we can explore as much as possible. But I
don't believe that requires changing everything in our light cone to
computronium. Maybe we decide to do that and maybe not. <br>
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<div>Most of the sunlight that falls on the earth is wasted,
but lets ignore that painful fact for very conservative estimates. The
radius of the earth is about 6400 km, so area of an earth sized disc is
about 1.3e8 km^2, and out here at 8 light minutes, the area of a sphere
of that radius would be about 2.8e17, so about 1 photon in every 2^e9,
less than half a part per billion emitted by the sun, ever hits the
earth.</div>
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<div>So what if we could increase our energy use by 2 billion
and our amount of matter participating in thought by 10 trillion?
Wouldn't we have fun with that? Wouldn't that be like having 10
trillion Anders Sandbergs, 10 teraAmaras, 10 teraMax? Oh my, would
that sim whoop ass, or what? <br>
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Sure, it could be grand indeed. But we might just as well become lotus
eaters once we use all the energy of the local star. Time will
tell. The fact that no other species appears to have done so or be
doing so gives me a bit of pause as to whether this simple vision is
the only or best or the one post singularity species generally take. <br>
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<div>And even that scenario vastly underestimates the case,
because the mass of a human is appallingly underutilized in thinking
and enjoying. Some of our mass is just hair, nails, flab, stuff we
don't need. Most of our mass is stuff we don't need, or wouldn't need
if we were not preoccupied with feeding ourselves to maintain tissue
that we don't need. If we put everything to work, progress could
proceed jillions of times faster, better, cheaper. We could figure out
ways to go get that other 96% and all the rest of the galaxy, and all
the other galaxies too, for there is no point in wasting all that
energy, just shining out into cold dead empty space.</div>
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Actually a lot of that useless mass is full of very yummy nerves and so
on. :) Yes, you can do better in a theoretical future computational
space. But where do you take a breath and enjoy and fully appreciate
what is? If you only keep running to more and More and yet MORE do you
remember to smell the roses fully before you digitize them? <br>
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<div>This is my transhuman endgame vision, the vision that
guides everything I do, everything I think, everything I am and hope to
become.</div>
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And I largely share it with some caveats and occasional need to ask
questions as to what is really meant and what we really want and why.
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- samantha<br>
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