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On 9/7/10 5:34 AM, Singularity Utopia wrote:
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">On 9/6/10 samantha <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" ymailto="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com"
href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com">sjatkins@mac.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
"Unfortunately it is made up pie in the sky. Even with MNT
there is no<br>
miraculous, inescapable and they lived happily ever after
ending<br>
coming. There is a very slim chance that it works out really
really<br>
well for everybody and a much better chance it works out
well for a<br>
relatively smaller number."<br>
<br>
Dear Samantha, Post-Scarcity is NOT pie in the sky anymore
than Extropy<br>
is pie in the sky. Utopia is entirely possible for everyone.<br>
<br>
Consider a brain one or two billion times more intelligent
than your current intelligence.<br>
The possibilities in such circumstances are infinite. If you
fail to believe<br>
super-intelligence will create unlimited utilization of
resources then consider the<br>
resources of a virtual world: in a digital virtual and in a
virtual universes resources will be<br>
limitless. Quadrillions of infinite virtual universes could
be easily created and within<br>
those universes more virtual and real real universes could
be created. Extremely large<br>
brainpower makes anything possible. A good sci-fi book to
read regarding possibilities,<br>
which our puny unaugmented brains cannot truly fathom, is
PERMUTATION CITY.<br>
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<br>
No, the possibilities are not "infinite". A brain 12 orders of
magnitude faster and generally more powerful than my own can do very
amazing things. But it is still finite in its abilities just as I
am. It is still subject to the laws of physics. It still can only
do so much in the manipulation of matter and energy in a fixed
period of time. So please stop using the word "infinite". It too
easily warps thinking.<br>
<br>
In each and every volume of space there are a finite amount of
resources. No intelligence can utilize more than is present within
its sphere of action. That sphere of action is likely limited by
speed of light and by latency among the communicating entities. No
it is quite true that a Jupiter brain or even a much much smaller
large asteroid brain can create virtual worlds of such depth that no
human could tell the difference. Even many thousands or millions of
such worlds. That is fine. But is that the same as achieving
infinite results? Not really. It is a lovely possibility of
great power I grant you but it is not heaven. And what governs
how these virtual worlds / virtual universes work? What sorts of
internal laws of physics or equivalent order their working? What
kind of things are possible and not possible for the many classes
and kinds of beings within them? Do you expect they will
experience only pleasant happy things forever? What happens to any
system when it receives only positive feedback no matter what? How
do beings grow in ability, understanding, wisdom in these worlds?
Do you toss all previous human 1.0 folks in the same worlds or in
worlds tailored to their current understanding, development,
proclivities that will maximize their growth? Do you put them in
worlds that are their idea of perfection until such time, if any,
they decided that just isn't good enough? It is not simple even
if you can create virtual universes with little no effort.<br>
<br>
And we must remember every day that we are not anywhere close to
creating such minds. We must also ask ourselves if such minds would
be interested in hosting such domains when they do come into
being. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:147628.33554.qm@web24920.mail.ird.yahoo.com"
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A few examples of how we are moving towards Post-Scarcity
are:<br>
<br>
1. The free operating system Ubuntu verses the expensive
Microsoft OS.<br>
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Not at all. A bunch of people, myself included, realized that much
more could be done in the realm of software if the base tools and
many components were much more open. It does not cause zero to
create or distribute Ubuntu sot is not free as in free beer to make.
It is produced by the cooperative efforts of a lot of people, by
donations and by the sale of services. It says nothing about
post-scarcity per se.<br>
<br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">2. Free browsers.<br>
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You are confusing what you get for no cost with and end to
scarcity. That said it is true that bits can be copied perfectly
and distributed widely with little/no additional cost beyond the
price of the computers, energy and communications. The size of a
non-tragic commons is certainly increasing and can increase much
more. But this does not mean we have infinite resources or that
nothing is scarce. Top notch creators of the content in the bits
are still not in an unlimited fungible supply.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:147628.33554.qm@web24920.mail.ird.yahoo.com"
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">3. The free Wikipedia encyclopedia.<br>
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Same thing, same error.<br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">4. P2P sharing<br>
<br>
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Same thing, same error.<br>
<br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">Admittedly these examples of free stuff
often make money via donations or or via<br>
another business in addition to the free-stuff but this is
only the beginning. I can<br>
watch any video I want on YouTube for free, which people
would have found<br>
unbelievable-pie-in-the-sky 10 or 20 years ago. <br>
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<br>
It is not "only the beginning". It take time (definitely finite
supply), talent, accumulation of resources that might have been used
on other things (opportunity cost) to produce anything whether
people are charged for the result or not.<br>
<br>
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Samantha, you ask if we can "stop with the hype?" I would
say the same to you.<br>
<br>
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Whatever. I was not guilty of it.<br>
<br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">You also ask me to tread carefully because
people will become disillusioned with H+<br>
if it doesn't work out how I envisage. I also ask you to
tread carefully because I have<br>
spread my dreams under your feet. I am poor therefore I have
only my dreams. Dreams<br>
are the most important part of being human because without
dreams we are nothing. I<br>
cannot recant my dreams. I have a dream... <br>
<br>
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Is this an argument? Dreams are wonderfully important but they will
not put beans on the table unless they are realized in reality.
Please do dream big. Please share big dreams. But craft them well
and in terms that give us things we can do now.<br>
<br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;">Samantha, you wrote: "There is very little
power in positive thinking without clear,<br>
consistent, effective action. You can think positive all day
long and<br>
get nowhere. You can think positive about something that in
reality is<br>
impossible and work really hard to get it and you will
still,<br>
guaranteed, fail. The utter and complete end of all scarcity
is one of<br>
those things that are contrary to reality."<br>
<br>
Desires, dreams, and pioneering visions allow us to achieve
the impossible.<br>
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No. They allow the achievement of what was in fact possible and was
merely thought to be impossible. And they only do this if they are
brought down to the reality of what can be done toward their
realization. And that is very much the realm of the finite. <br>
<br>
Visions without works do nothing. Ideas are commonplace and
everywhere. Successfully acting in reality to accomplish the
implementation of an idea is scarce.<br>
<br>
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Do you understand Extropy and the Singularity?</div>
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Are you going to try to teach your grandma to suck eggs? :) Of
course I understand them. I don't think you do quite but I
appreciate and understand this form of excitement.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:147628.33554.qm@web24920.mail.ird.yahoo.com"
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;"> During the Stone Age a spaceship sending<br>
men to the Moon was pie in the sky, utter impossibility, but
thankfully times change and<br>
we progress. The human race will soon take an unimaginable
leap forward far surpassing<br>
all previous progression. I hope you are able to dream. <br>
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<br>
All of this is fluff that while true, is utterly irrelevant to the
actual question I raised.<br>
<br>
- samantha<br>
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