Thanks for the reply Natasha, I'm going to try and answer your questions.<div><br></div><div>I'm not saying that understanding religion is not a valuable thing for our society. It will help us understand the absurdity which our ancestral parents cooked up with their imaginations. There are of course many good moral rules in the religions, quite obviously!</div>
<div><br></div><div>We know there is a preferred behavior of which we should try to understand and follow, and morality is the concept which describes this preferred behavior. If no preferred behavior existed, we probably wouldn't exists and sit here discussing this topic, as we wouldn't have survived in the natural world.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Let's find a <b>true moral value</b>:</div><div><br></div><div>Here are two moral sentences from the Christian bible:</div><div><br></div><div>"<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">You shall not kill/murder."</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">"</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">Neither shall you steal."</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">There is both rational and logical reasons why most religions have these are moral ideas, they originated as moral values which helps the society. Human progress and prosperity is dependent on true moral values.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">They can more clearly be described with a more modern understanding of this moral concept:</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">"You should not initiate physical force against another person", according to the non-aggression-principle (</span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle</a>)<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">The above moral value stands up to logical and empirical examination:</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">If everyone murdered each other, we would all die.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">Nobody likes to be bullied with, so we shouldn't physically attack each other.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">Nobody likes when others steal from them, so we should avoid such activities.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">These are truths that exists both for me personally, and it's the reality that I'm evidently seeing in my society and amongst my friends. Neither of which I steal from, and neither of them are stealing from me. I've never threatened any of my friends physically, and neither have them towards me.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">Does that mean nobody ever attacks another person? No, the world is not perfect and neither is biology. If I tell you that cats have one head and two ears - you could verify that through empirical examination. Yet, there are cats born with two heads and three or more ears. We are not above the physical laws and the biological processes of which our bodies is manifested with.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">So that's how we establish moral values which are true and correct.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br>
</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">Let's move on to a <b>false moral value</b>:</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">"thou shalt not cast thy seed upon the ground"</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; "><br></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">This is regarding masturbation, of which people a long, long time ago looked upon as something nasty, evil and destructive to a persons life.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">Let's examine the evidence:</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">I have masturbated since I was a kid, and I enjoyed it then and I enjoy it now.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">>From what I can read on the web, other people masturbate and they enjoy it as well.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">My penis have never fallen off due to this activity.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">When I don't masturbate, my body will eventually ejaculate the seamen while I'm sleeping.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">So this is evidently a false and incorrect moral value.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">Religions, especially those based upon Abraham, have a lot of false moral values, which are bad. Let's not discuss how many people have been killed over all those false moral values that are preached by religion.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">Consistency is very important in morality, and the in-consistency in the morals preached by religions are many. That's how they have justified killing millions, even though it clearly says: You shall not kill and neither steal.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; line-height: 19px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px;">One example of in-consistency from the Qur'an: "<i>I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them</i>"</span></font></div>
<div><br></div><div>So correct and true moral values has apply to all human beings, there cannot be any values which applies only to rich people, poor people, Iraqis, Jews, Christians, Africans, police officers or soldiers. If it is wrong for someone to shoot and kill another person in USA, then it's wrong to shoot and kill another person if you are a soldier in Afghanistan.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Religion has plenty of good moral values, they where created in ancient societies and helped us live better together.</div><div><br></div><div>Religion is founded on the utter submission to one or more deities and throwing a personal rationality out the window.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Religion is about faith, founded on irrational thoughts and ideas. You can't prove a religious faith, yet I consider there to be a lot of evidence in the world which tells us where religion came from and how it came about, which for me are clear indications against religion.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Transhumanism I think outsiders sometimes considers it/us as religious people, that we replace Transhumanism with other religions. I clearly don't consider it in such a manner, self-improvement is a great moral value. It will give me more energy, it involves improving my own knowledge, and give myself better health. All of which my family and friends have great benefits from.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I hope I made myself understood, I'm not the worlds greatest debater and English is not my native language. Thanks for your attention and time!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>- Sondre</div>
<div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/1/7 Natasha Vita-More <span dir="ltr"><natasha@natasha.cc></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div class="im"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span></span></font>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"> Sondre wrote:</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">"</font> </span>No religion are sane. Religions are
invalid as basis for morality, as the morality in all religions are not based
upon realities in the world and doesn't stand up to
scientific scrutiny.<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"> " </font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
</div><div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">I disagree. Some religions offer a cultural perspective
of a tribe's history and mythic lore. And many contain moral views, which
are deeply based on the real world. It would be difficult to say whether
they stand up to scientific scrutiny, but it would be difficult to say that
transhumanism stands up to scientific scrutiny, or cyberculture, or
feminism, etc.</font></span></div><div class="im">
<div><br></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"> " </font></span>Religions is the mechanism of which to get
people to submit their lives to rude and evil beings, of which then the
leaders of each religion can manipulate their masses at will.<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"> " </font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
</div><div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">All
religions? All leaders of religions? All masses?
</font></span></div><div class="im">
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font><br></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"> " </font></span>Yet you are right, it's not far fetched
that religious individuals can believe anything, even in evolution. Believing
has nothing to do with understandability, truth and right.<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"> " </font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
</div><div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Believing does involve understandability, truth and right.
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Many
religions offer a elements of good judgment, however based on
myth.</font></span></div>
<div> </div><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span>Natasha </span><span> </span></font></font></font><br></div></font><div class="im">
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/1/7 Samantha Atkins <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sjatkins@mac.com" target="_blank">sjatkins@mac.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
<div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div></div></div>
<div>There are many many flavors of Christian - some are actually pretty sane.
:) Mainstream Christianity for a while was denatured of all that
biblical literalism and thought many things were mostly symbolic, for
instance. Then we got the fundamentalist resurgence - in my opinion
partially as reaction to Future Shock. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If you hold that it is possible within the laws of physics of this
universe to run multiple virtual universes then you believe in principle that
it is possible for an entire universe to have a creator. You also
believe in principle that things that apparently violate the physics of such a
virtual universe can be done by those controlling the simulating machinery.
And of course you believe that genetic algorithms could be used to
develop beings of all kinds tuned to parts of this virtual universe.
So yeah, a Christian that understands and affirms evolution is not
that far fetched.</div>
<div><br></div><font color="#888888">
<div>- samantha</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br></div></div></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br> Sondre Bjellås | Senior Solutions Architect | Steria<br><a href="http://www.sondreb.com/">http://www.sondreb.com/</a><br>
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