<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
On 02/12/2011 11:59 AM, Darren Greer wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTi=3prx9ySQmFRMGAKr2D4rE2n3VGA76epWGBSnZ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">Damien
wrote:</span>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:
arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">>The
technical name for what you prefer is "corporate fascism".
That doesn't have a really compelling history.<</span></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">I
agree Damien. When the definition of fascism was entered for
the first time in the Encyclopedia Italiano, Mussolini
suggested that corporatism was a more accurate name for that
type of arrangement than fascism anyway. Fascism is *by
definition* the merging of business and government, most
often accompanied by rabid nationalism and sometimes overt
racism. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">But
not always, which might make modern fascism difficult to
recognize because we always assume holocaust-type ethnic
cleansing comes with it. It doesn't. Italy followed
Germany's Wannsee Conference directives (because it was
under political pressure to do so) but not to the letter.
For some of the war Mussolini allowed the north west of the
country to become a kind of protectorate for Jews who had
fled other parts of the state. The ax fell on them only
after Italy fell, when the allies invaded the south and
Germany took the north to meet them. I got this story from
John Keegan's The Second World War, which is an excellent
book by the way.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Actually, the Constitution was indented to limit the government to
what it expressly allows it to do. Since it does not mention
allowing the government to meddle in the economy the way it does or
to do state-corporate minglings it is Constitutional illegal for the
government to do so. Also, the government has to have gone far
beyond its Constitutional charter in the first place to have enough
power and money to be so attractive a target to merge with. So it
is perfectly clear which came first in terms of culpability.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTi=3prx9ySQmFRMGAKr2D4rE2n3VGA76epWGBSnZ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">Spike
wrote:</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;
font-family: arial;">>In any case it would be far
preferable to government takeover of corporations.<</span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;
font-family: arial;"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;
font-family: arial;">Is there a difference? When
governments and corporations merge, does it matter who
made the first move? Given the checkered history of IBM,
Ford, Chase Manhattan, etc, not to mention the America
First Committee and the role of prominent industrialists
like Ford in trying to keep the U.S. out of World War II
for business reasons, perhaps it should be illegal.
Currently we try to prevent the merging of the two with
market regulation and not through legislation, which
doesn't seem to be working all that well. The repeal of
Glass-Steagall and the housing market crash is a good
example of that failure. </span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;
font-family: arial;"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;
font-family: arial;">Don't mean to sound testy, or
confrontational, Spike. I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet
about what seems to be a widespread misunderstanding of
exactly what fascism is and how easily it could happen
again. The U.S. congress has a fasces engraved on a wall
somewhere inside, by the way. Don't know its history, or
what genius decided it was a good idea, but it has always
made me wonder. </span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;
font-family: arial;"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div>darren</div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate;"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate;">I<br>
</span></span></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 12:48 PM,
Damien Broderick <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:thespike@satx.rr.com">thespike@satx.rr.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="im">On 2/12/2011 9:46 AM, spike wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
Our constitution is set up to maintain separation of
church and state.<br>
It doesn't say anything about separation of corporation
and state. As far<br>
as I can tell the latter would be perfectly legal. In
any case it would be<br>
far preferable to government takeover of corporations.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
The technical name for what you prefer is "corporate
fascism". That doesn't have a really compelling history.<br>
<br>
Here's a random-selected thumbnail:<br>
<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7260.htm"
target="_blank">http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7260.htm</a>><br>
<font color="#888888">
<br>
Damien Broderick</font>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org"
target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat"
target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div><font face="'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><i>There is no history, only biography.</i></font></div>
<div><font face="'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><i><br>
</i></font></div>
<div><font face="'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><i>-Ralph Waldo Emerson<br>
</i></font>
<div><font face="Georgia, Utopia, 'Palatino Linotype',
Palatino, serif"><span style="line-height: 26px;"><span
style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet
MS',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; line-height: normal;
color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="margin: 0px;
padding: 0px; font-style: italic;"><span
style="background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></span></span></span></font></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>