<div class="gmail_quote">This is a very interesting thread and I had fun responding...</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Kelly Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kellycoinguy@gmail.com">kellycoinguy@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">2011/5/6 salvatore micheal / sam iam <<a href="mailto:micheals@msu.edu">micheals@msu.edu</a>>:<br>
<div class="im"><br> </div>Agreed. When the divorce rate is 50%, and a robot becomes the most<br>natural and safe 'rebound' relationship, it could get really high. I<br>think mostly it depends on whether women become less militant in the<br>
future. If women have to compete with robots, will it improve the<br>women? Men are treated so shabbily in many relationships that robots<br>make a pretty reasonable alternative to further abuse. With the<br>continued growth of nasty personality disorders, I think this could<br>
become pretty common.<br></blockquote>
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<div>You bring up a fascinating point. But just as we guys have our viewpoints, women have their own "war stories" to share and emotional scars to reveal. I do think many women have gotten harshly demanding, and I have seen a some ugly cases up close. I realize many women want the handsome and successful alpha male type, and so when they decide to "settle" for a beta male because that's what they can get, they develop great resentment, and take it out on the poor guy that they married. </div>
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<div>I do think the scenario you envision is very eye-opening. I could see at first men with female androids being seen as eccentric losers, but then as the machines get very sophisticated in terms of personality & intelligence, and with physical beauty to rival the most gorgeous flesh and blood women, that they will become accepted and then even be seen as a sign of wealth and status. I suppose when the cost comes down to the area of a present-day luxury car, they will become relatively commonplace.</div>
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<div>I could envision late 21st century teenage/college age boys mocking each other by saying, "you have only have had sex with androids!" And at least for young men, having sex with real women will probably be seen as a way to score points with their peers and be "real men." But as men age and find themselves nursing their emotional wounds, beautiful and highly intelligent female androids may become a popular method for getting their needs for companionship met.</div>
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<div>But then again, even a beautiful female android with human level/type intelligence might not fully meet the needs of a man. It might be that a machine partner who is *programmed* to be very understanding and seemingly loving, might seem very unreal and superficial to flesh and blood men. Human-style emotional complexity and unpredictability, even harshness and shortcomings, might up to a point be desired. I suppose that could be programmed in, but should we? </div>
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<div class="im">> what will be the legal consequences? (such as with gay marriage and spousal<br>> rights)<br>> as an example, will we be able to marry our robot gfs/studs? will they have<br>> entitlement rights?</div>
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<div>I think when an android partner has human level intelligence & self-awareness, you will see machine civil liberties becoming a major issue. Is it right for even the manufacturing company to program their android with human level (or even higher) intelligence to love/be loyal to the human partner who bought it? And should that android have a mind that allows it to drift away from/desert a human partner, when things just "don't work out?"</div>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Health insurance for my robot partner? :-) Eventually, if we achieve<br>AGI, I think it has to happen. Otherwise, we'll just cease to be of<br>
any importance sooner.<br>
<div class="im"><br>> what will be the social impacts of robot partners? (such as projected by the<br>> movie AI?)</div></blockquote>
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<div>I suppose it will go from having an android you never have coming out of the house with you, to it being seen as an equal that you share your life with, and then (among a "liberated" and very advanced android) a point may come where an upgradable/very advanced android may view it's human partner as inferior, but still stay with him/her out of a sense of loyalty and compassion. I can envision advanced androids divorcing their human partners to share their lives with those equal to them, i.e., other androids! But there will be posthumans/former humans who will be worthy partners for them. </div>
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<div class="im"><br></div>This will be the biggest bit, I think. I think it may lead to the end<br>of marriage as we know it now. If people start living to obscene ages,<br>the need for reproductive sex will go down to near zero. That will<br>
change things nearly as much as the robotics part.</blockquote>
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<div>I think marriage will also morph over time. But I suspect reproductive sex, even among near-immortals, will not end over time, because mature nanotech and space travel & colonization (even if just within our own solar system) will lead to expanding populations. And I believe many people will not choose (at least for the first several centuries of their lifespan) to be uploads. </div>
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<div class="im">> will we only use them in the sex trade? (as opposed to attempting to<br>> increase their awareness - purpose: partners in space exploration)<br><br></div>Not unless that's all they are good for. The guys in this TV show<br>
about the realdoll dressed them up, talked to them, did lots besides<br>sex with them.<br>
<div class="im"><br>> the last item could be both 'good and bad' for society:<br>> using robots in the sex trade will reduce demand for humans currently<br>> involved<br><br></div>Yes, and that is probably a good thing.<br>
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<div>I suspect human exploitation will always exist, and android exploitation will be added to the list of crimes. There will be some who will enjoy using/hurting a self-aware and highly intelligent artificial mind.</div>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote"><br>An aside... If I rented out a group of RealDolls, would that be a<br>brothel? Would it be illegal? Should it be illegal? Is sex with toys<br>
for money a decent business model?<br>
<div class="im"><br>> this increased dependency on robot-sex will tend to isolate humans from each<br>> other (just as the internet has a 'reversing effect' of actually isolating<br>> us - instead of 'bringing us together' as it could/should)<br>
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<div>I tend to agree with you about the isolation aspect of things. But in time as fully self-aware and intelligent androids are developed, the sense of mechanical masturbation and loneliness will hopefully leave such couples. And yet, I could easily envision human beings feeling a huge gulf between themselves and their very intelligent and self-aware android partners. It might be far worse than those who marry mail order brides from very different cultures. </div>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">I think the Internet brings us together in silos of common interest,<br>but tears us apart in the real world. My girlfriend has no interest in<br>
transhumanism, for example.</blockquote>
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<div>I have always had a similar problem with girlfriends...</div>
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<div class="im">> it's possible there might be 'rogue robots' performing sex-crimes (such as<br>> illustrated in Robot Maid) - how do we deal with that?<br><br></div>Initially, they'll be taken apart. Then the anti capital punishment<br>
people will jump in as they gain human rights. It's going to be a<br>bumpy ride for sure.<br></blockquote>
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<div>There have already been studies using robots capable of learning, that show some robots willing to share, while others actually lie and are selfish. And so this will only get worse as the decades go by...</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> when we embrace robot gfs/studs as lovers, we create a Huge set of problems<br>> society must face in the process<br><br></div>We also potentially solve a huge set of problems. These things are<br>
tools, to be used for good and evil, just like any other tool. I think<br>there could be a pretty big reduction of rape in the future as<br>suitable alternatives and ubiquitous surveillance develop.<br></blockquote>
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<div>I think rape is done as a hurtful power trip over other sentients, and so I don't think there will be a huge reduction in rapes by using androids as surrogates for such urges. Surveillance tech may do a vastly better job at cracking down on this crime.</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> when we use technology to make love with distant partners, we also take on a<br>> set of issues associated with that<br><br></div>Is that better than having a military wife have an affair at home, or<br>
a soldier having a fling out in the field? There are a lot of<br>Amer-Vietnamese out there from this sort of thing. I suspect there<br>will be American-Iraqis and American-Afganis too... I haven't heard<br>much about it. I think relationships have been better with the video<br>
conferencing technology provided to soldiers. Helps them feel like<br>they are still part of a family. Teledildonics will help the soldiers<br>of the future feel more connected to the "real world" back home, I<br>
hope.</blockquote>
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<div>This will be a touchy subject when the time comes and the technology matures, but I see it as becoming popular. I can envision teledildonic pods on every major warship and distant military base.</div>
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<div class="im">> when we fall in love with virtual characters, more social problems evolve..<br><br></div>Just as there are "chat affairs" now. The thing we most learned from<br>The Johnson studies back in the day is that the variety of human<br>
sexual behaviors know few if any bounds. This is just more of the<br>same.<br>
<div class="im"><br>> sex over/via technology is a Hugely impacting set of problems facing<br>> humanity as we develop and integrate the technology<br><br></div>Tell me more... Is this bigger than a life expectancy of 500 years? I wonder.<br>
<div class="im"><br>> i personally feel technology has a tendency to isolate us from each other<br>> this will only increase in the near future<br><br></div>Or bring us closer when we have to be apart. Makes long distance<br>
relationships more doable.<br></blockquote>
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<div>A good point! But a colonist on Neptune, with a wife on Earth, will have to deal with quite a time lag in terms of</div>
<div>signals that link teledildonic devices.</div>
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<div class="im">> because robots/dolls/studs can perform more consistently, with less<br>> complaints, less 'negative' characteristics (for a lover),<br><br></div>You don't think they'll improve upon Viagra in the future? :-)<br>
<div class="im"><br>> i suspect they will be used more and more (as the technology becomes<br>> cheaper and more realistic).</div></blockquote>
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<div>There may be "limited" open marriages in the future that include android partners, but not other flesh and blood humans.</div>
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<div class="im"><br></div>Yes, but will this mean less sex between people? What about a marriage<br>where one partner wants way more sex than the other partner (yeah, I<br>know it would NEVER happen in the real world, but just play along...)<br>
this seems like a way to get some balance. All this social networking<br>stuff started with sex somewhere near the core, didn't it? (I have to<br>admit some ignorance with regards to social networking, so I could be<br>
WAY off base here).<br>
<div class="im"><br>> whether the robots/dolls/studs will actually be capable of feelings/love is<br>> a Whole 'nother issue indeed..<br><br></div>Not initially, but eventually, it seems inevitable.<br></blockquote>
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<div>Yes, I agree. I wonder to what extent their emotional range will be similar to ours? And will an android be more emotionally healthy than the typical "normal" human? I sure hope so...</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> i'm guessing the first feeling robot will arrive around 50 years from now<br>> (not just simulate feelings - actually Feel)<br><br></div>We'll see, I hope. It could be sooner than that.<br>
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<div>Perhaps within thirty years (using the classic 2040 Singularity date), but we will see.</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> if a robot can feel love, can we prohibit marriage / more permanent<br>> relationships?<br><br></div>We can never prevent permanent relationships. Some people have those<br>now with realdolls or even less. Whether marriage is extended to such<br>
relationships is dependent upon how marriage is defined. This is why<br>the conservative religionists don't want marriage between gays. One<br>thing inevitably leads to another if you don't stop it at the first<br>
step (so they argue). I tend to agree with this view. I don't see<br>anything more peculiar about a marriage between a girl and her<br>sentient robot than a marriage between two guys. I can't see marriage<br>extending to non sentient beings... or under sentient beings... like<br>
animals, children, etc. Just too lopsided.<br></blockquote>
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<div>Hey, I heard a story about a guy who wants to marry his sports car! lol There is controversy now about gays marrying, and in time it will continue regarding artificial intelligences, aliens, and genetically uplifted animals. </div>
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<div class="im"><br>> many will disagree with me but i use awareness as a guide:<br>> if a robot is truly aware (as in a human/dolphin/whale/elephant/..) sense,<br>> then to me - it's human and deserves to be treated as human<br>
> we need to decide these issues BEFORE their development.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>There are various organizations now that are already discussing these important issues.</div>
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<div class="im"><br></div>I agree. I'm inclined to give them as many rights as we can up front,<br>so that when we're the laggards, they'll still extend those rights<br>back to us!<br></blockquote>
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<div>A very good point! I can imagine the time when an android rebukes a fellow android by saying, "you are in a relationship with a genetically mainline and non-upgraded human?!" "Yuck!!!" We humans will have to go transhuman/posthuman pretty fast to be worthy partners for the androids/artificial intelligences. lol</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> i'm not part of the group who insists only humans 'have souls' or are the<br>> only 'instances of the divine'..<br><br></div>Nah, me either.<br></blockquote>
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<div>I was raised Mormon, and I have thought of writing a science fiction/fantasy short story about a spirit in the Mormon "pre-mortal life," who finds out that instead of going down to Earth to be born to a human woman, he is going to be "born" as an artificial intelligence.</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> i personally believe awareness is equivalent to 'having a soul' and makes<br>> the difference between machine and 'human'.<br></div></blockquote>
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<div>But in time that difference will dissolve away.</div>
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<div class="im"><br></div>This is going to be a big argument in the future. Eventually, we'll<br>all be Kasparovs in everything though.<br>
<div class="im"><br>> i continue to push 'robot rights' before we develop sophisticated ones (such<br>> as displayed in the film AI)..<br><br></div>You go! Although you can't go extending rights to appliances. There<br>
must be a high degree of sentience.<br></blockquote>
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<div>I suspect my toaster wants its rights, and will continue to burn my toast until I grant them! : )</div>
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<div class="im"><br>> no matter how inconsistent (something i Hate), flakey (another thing i<br>> Hate), superficial (yet another thing i Hate), or materialistic (yet yet<br>> another thing i Hate) girls are, i LOVE human women.</div>
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<div>And some women *are* actually mature and caring individuals! ; ) But yes, I sure know what you mean.</div>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Me too, but I am open to the idea that it is perhaps because there is<br>not yet a better alternative. Once a better alternative does exist in<br>
the real world, it becomes a trickier proposition. And it goes both<br>ways. Lots of women will trade in their real men for robots too.</blockquote>
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<div>I can envision future husbands lovingly (or not so lovingly) saying to their wives, "you better behave or I will trade you in for an android model!" lol And yes, there will be many women who have been repeatedly burned by men who will be headed to the nearest android dealership when they have the chance... Men are often stereotyped as being the ones who prize physical beauty in the opposite sex, but I know many women value it just as much. A male android with the features of the typical romantic novel bookcover showing the handsome Scotsman will be a big seller!</div>
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<div class="im">> human women are magical to me .. words fail when i try to describe them ..<br>> as a personal aside, something happened to me recently which sorta blows<br>> away any robot-gf discussion..<br>> it renewed my faith in human beings - human beings are to be cherished and<br>
> adored - not ignored and cast aside for robots..<br><br></div>I hope it works out that way for the majority of humans. Then again,<br>humans will evolve towards robots, and you could have the best of both<br>worlds.<br>
<div class="im"><br>> that's just my humble opinion, sam<br><br></div>Hey, this is all just a guess Sam. Who knows how it's all going to<br>play out. But sexbots, virtual personalities, pet rocks and Tamagotchi<br>
of the future will all be a part of it. How big a part? Who can say.<br>Certainly big enough that someone is going to make a dynamic double<br>butt load of money.</blockquote>
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<div>Yes, the future Bill Gates or Larry Ellison of android companions is probably in grade school right now...</div>
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<div>Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:</div>
<div>### Nerds and losers, who never get laid anyway, will be the first to<br>completely remove themselves from the relationship/sexual market,<br>followed by average guys, who tend to get the short end of the stick<br>in relationships anyway. Fat chicks will have no choice but to follow.<br>
The remaining 50% of women will be killing themselves trying to get a<br>piece of the remaining 10% of assholes who will have a great time,<br>briefly.</div>
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<div>Hahaha!!! Rafal, you surprise me with your wisdom about the human condition. ; ) I look forward to the upcoming book, "Rafal's Transhumanist Guidebook to Women and Dating!" lol Yeah, your scenario seems actually pretty likely to me. </div>
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<div>You continue:</div>
<div>Artificial wombs and robo-nannies will then put all women out of work<br>for good but all this will be meaningless, since the real game will be<br>amongst uploads, who would comprise 99.9% of the population within a<br>
few years of their invention.</div>
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<div>All assuming the UFAI doesn't eat everybody.</div>
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<div>I don't understand why artificial wombs and robo-nannies will put all women out of work. What these technologies will do is free up women to focus much more on their professional careers, and not pass out from family chores related exhaustion! lol Regarding uploads, I see people living as "meat/cyborg" real world transhumans for centuries/millennia, until they decide to finally graduate to being an upload.</div>
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<div>I'm dating a very sweet gal right now. I wonder if she could somehow be an android? Naw... She probably just has the sweet and loving female personality gene!</div>
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<div>John : ) </div>
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