First post here, and look forward to more. For now, I just wanted to drop a quick note for any in here on FB who consider themselves libertarian, anarchist, or generally small government types interested in H+ and AGI. The site can be found at : <a href="mailto:singulibertarians@groups.facebook.com">singulibertarians@groups.facebook.com</a> <br>
If interested, just let me know, and I will bring you into the page. <br><br>Also, I used to call myself "Extropian," went away from discussions for awhile, and when I got back into them, everyone was now called "Transhumanist." Don't know why the terminology changed, but I just found it odd. Any ideas as to why that happened? Not a big deal, just curious. <br>
<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 8:00 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat-request@lists.extropy.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Isn't Bostrom seriously bordering on the reactionary?<br>
(Stefano Vaj)<br>
2. The Japanese K Computer (john clark)<br>
3. Re: Isn't Bostrom seriously bordering on the reactionary?<br>
(Keith Henson)<br>
4. META - Subject line (was RE: Isn't Bostrom seriously<br>
bordering on the reactionary?) (Natasha Vita-More)<br>
5. subject line discipline: ...seriously bordering on the<br>
reactionary? (spike)<br>
6. Re: scale of the universe (Kelly Anderson)<br>
7. working memory implant! wow! (Will Steinberg)<br>
8. Re: AGI Motivation revisited [WAS Re: Isn't Bostrom seriously<br>
...] (Stefano Vaj)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:17:14 +0200<br>
From: Stefano Vaj <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Isn't Bostrom seriously bordering on the<br>
reactionary?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:BANLkTinc-H_pKjiGdZhuECWOOBTTpXoaEg@mail.gmail.com">BANLkTinc-H_pKjiGdZhuECWOOBTTpXoaEg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
On 17 June 2011 16:50, Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> 2011/6/17 Stefano Vaj <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> So true. There is also the problem of identifying what is a risk.<br>
><br>
<br>
Exactly my point.<br>
<br>
<br>
> One of the classic curses is "may you get what you ask for." I could<br>
> elaborate a long time on this, but Charles Stross has already done so.<br>
><br>
<br>
Certainly there is some tragic, in the Greek sense, in the adventure of<br>
humankind and of life in general.<br>
<br>
But the big split has forever been between those who celebrate it ("amor<br>
fati"), and those who consider that a curse.<br>
<br>
Speaking of transhumanism, at the bottom of it in my view there is the<br>
explicitely or implicitely the Nietzschean idea that what we are worth<br>
consists in our potential to overcome ourselves: "The 'conservation of the<br>
species' is only a consequence of the growth of the species, that is<br>
of a *victory<br>
on the species*, in the path towards<br>
a stronger species. [...] It is exactly with respect to every living being<br>
that it could be best shown that it does everything that it can not to<br>
protect itself, but t*o become more than what it is*." (Will to Power) "And<br>
it is the great noontide, when man is in the middle of his course between<br>
animal and Superman, *and celebrateth his advance to the evening as his<br>
highest hope*: for it is the advance to a new morning. At such time will the<br>
down-goer bless himself, that he should be an *over-goer*; and the sun of<br>
his knowledge will be at noontide." (Thus Spake Zarathustra).<br>
<br>
At a point in time, some transhumanists seem to have decided that after all<br>
eternal becoming and transition(s) to posthumanity are not any more what<br>
only can give a meaning to our presence in the world; on the contrary, it<br>
would be something to be feared and shun, since it would obviously imply<br>
that we would not "exist" anymore the way we currently do, as in "x-risk".<br>
See not only Bostrom, but, eg, the last part of Stross's Accelerando.<br>
<br>
Such POV is eminently respectable, not to mention largely predominant in our<br>
societies along the lines of the famous "anti trans-simianist" satire, but I<br>
wonder why it would require additional advocates<br>
<br>
--<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:59:08 -0700 (PDT)<br>
From: john clark <<a href="mailto:jonkc@bellsouth.net">jonkc@bellsouth.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
Subject: [ExI] The Japanese K Computer<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:652029.11217.qm@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com">652029.11217.qm@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com</a>><br>
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<br>
A Japanese computer is the fastest in the world; called the "K Computer" it is 3 times as fast as the previous champion, a Chinese machine crowned just 6 months? ago.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/technology/20computer.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/technology/20computer.html</a><br>
<br>
?John K Clark<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:03:01 -0700<br>
From: Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Isn't Bostrom seriously bordering on the<br>
reactionary?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:BANLkTikp5xTNydV2eam4i55avvvKz7gr9Q@mail.gmail.com">BANLkTikp5xTNydV2eam4i55avvvKz7gr9Q@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
2011/6/20 Stefano Vaj <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> On 17 June 2011 16:50, Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> 2011/6/17 Stefano Vaj <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>> So true. ?There is also the problem of identifying what is a risk.<br>
><br>
> Exactly my point.<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> One of the classic curses is "may you get what you ask for." ?I could<br>
>> elaborate a long time on this, but Charles Stross has already done so.<br>
><br>
> Certainly there is some tragic, in the Greek sense, in the adventure of<br>
> humankind and of life in general.<br>
<br>
True. A ten km asteroid ruined the day for the dinosaurs<br>
<br>
> But the big split has forever been between those who celebrate it ("amor<br>
> fati"), and those who consider that a curse.<br>
<br>
We might not have a lot of control over out destinies, but trying to<br>
do something positive seems like a good idea to me.<br>
<br>
> Speaking of transhumanism, at the bottom of it in my view there is the<br>
> explicitely or implicitely the Nietzschean idea that what we are worth<br>
> consists in our potential to overcome ourselves: "The 'conservation of the<br>
> species' is only a consequence of the growth of the species, that is of a<br>
> victory on the species, in the path towards<br>
> a stronger species. [...] It is exactly with respect to every living being<br>
> that it could be best shown that it does everything that it can not to<br>
> protect itself, but to become more than what it is." (Will to Power) "And it<br>
> is the great noontide, when man is in the middle of his course between<br>
> animal and Superman, and celebrateth his advance to the evening as his<br>
> highest hope: for it is the advance to a new morning. At such time will the<br>
> down-goer bless himself, that he should be an over-goer; and the sun of his<br>
> knowledge will be at noontide." (Thus Spake Zarathustra).<br>
<br>
Nietzsche was not faced with the current prospects where we could, in<br>
a generation, change as much or more than the distance between mice<br>
and humans. It's easy for us to imagine improvements, long (perhaps<br>
open ended), disease free lives, physical attractiveness, even<br>
modification so we have no blind spot. However, once people are on<br>
this slippery slope, where will they stop?<br>
<br>
I wonder what Nietzsche would say if he were up on the prospects of<br>
AI/nanotechnology?<br>
<br>
Would he embrace it or go catatonic?<br>
<br>
> At a point in time, some transhumanists seem to have decided that after all<br>
> eternal becoming and transition(s) to posthumanity are not any more what<br>
> only can give a meaning to our presence in the world; on the contrary, it<br>
> would be something to be feared and shun, since it would obviously imply<br>
> that we would not "exist" anymore the way we currently do, as in "x-risk".<br>
> See not only Bostrom, but, eg, the last part of Stross's? Accelerando.<br>
<br>
It's a side effect of playing with the gods, even in your imagination.<br>
Too many unknowns like the Fermi question and therefore scary.<br>
Besides, you can't identify with gods so they don't make good<br>
characters for a story.<br>
<br>
I suspect the best outcome we can work toward is that the things we<br>
become will remember being us.'<br>
<br>
Actually I am not sure the would want to inflict that on them. It<br>
might be like your mom putting video on the net of you playing in mud<br>
as a little kid.<br>
<br>
> Such POV is eminently respectable, not to mention largely predominant in our<br>
> societies along the lines of the famous "anti trans-simianist" satire, but I<br>
> wonder why it would require additional advocates<br>
<br>
I don't think "predominant" is the right word unless you are talking<br>
about the tiny transhumanist society. The larger society remains<br>
unaware.<br>
<br>
Keith<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:05:41 -0500<br>
From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha@natasha.cc><br>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: [ExI] META - Subject line (was RE: Isn't Bostrom seriously<br>
bordering on the reactionary?)<br>
Message-ID: <5A0C63B0EDEB48E292CD03C67FF2F742@DFC68LF1><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Hi everyone -<br>
<br>
Please change the subject line of posts that have clearly strayed from or<br>
introduce new ideas!<br>
<br>
Thank you!<br>
<br>
Natasha<br>
<br>
Natasha Vita-More<br>
<br>
Chair, Humanity+<br>
PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:04:33 -0700<br>
From: "spike" <<a href="mailto:spike66@att.net">spike66@att.net</a>><br>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: [ExI] subject line discipline: ...seriously bordering on the<br>
reactionary?<br>
Message-ID: <00a301cc2f8d$a841f1d0$f8c5d570$@<a href="http://att.net" target="_blank">att.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
<br>
Do observe when a thread has wandered far from the original topic and feel<br>
free to rename the subject. Not specifically forbidden but often<br>
discouraged is putting an actual person's name in the subject line, for the<br>
reason that topics always wander. Then we have a bunch of junk about a<br>
specific person that doesn't apply. Thanks.<br>
<br>
spike<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:50:15 -0600<br>
From: Kelly Anderson <<a href="mailto:kellycoinguy@gmail.com">kellycoinguy@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] scale of the universe<br>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinyY-dxtzg0x45HCg3rtGY7=<a href="mailto:orQ0g@mail.gmail.com">orQ0g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
Now, what would be interesting would be to put dollars and cents in<br>
this picture... :-)<br>
<br>
$1 = 1 meter...<br>
<br>
The cost of a single byte of hard drive storage ($80 for a 2TB Drive)<br>
is close to the size of a Helium atom.<br>
A penny would be $0.01 dollars, where the grain of rice is...<br>
A dollar would be where the meter is...<br>
Half Dome would be around a week's salary... $420<br>
A marathon would be a year's salary for a typical day laborer, $26,000<br>
The diameter of the moon would represent $3,500,000, about what the<br>
government spends in an hour and a half.<br>
The largest lottery jackpot of all time $390,000,000 is about twice<br>
the size of Jupiter.<br>
The cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq together are nearly the<br>
size of the sun. $1,200,000,000,000<br>
The 2012 budget of $3,700,000,000,000 is larger than the largest known<br>
star, but smaller than the orbit of Pluto.<br>
The Kuiper Belt is the current national debt... $15,000,000,000,000<br>
The current gross world product is $30 trillion per year, is just a<br>
third larger than the Homonculous Nebula.<br>
The total unfunded liability of the US Government of<br>
$144,000,000,000,000 is half the size of the Sting Ray Nebula!<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_Earth" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_Earth</a><br>
According to Wikipedia, the replacement value of the entire earth is<br>
the size of the Great Orion Nebula. $195,000,000,000,000,000<br>
And here is a number to blow your mind... If you value electricity at<br>
10 cents per Kilowatt hour, the energy output of our sun in one second<br>
is worth<br>
$38,000,000,000,000,000,000,000<br>
Which on the scale is the size of our Local Galactic Group.<br>
The value of all the power of the sun for an entire year would be<br>
approximately the Estimated Size of the Universe...<br>
$3,283,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000<br>
<br>
If nothing else, that gives you quite a bit of respect for the power<br>
of the sun! Hopefully, I haven't messed up the math too badly; it's<br>
hard to get these big numbers exactly right. YMMV on some of the<br>
numbers, but the order of magnitude is right... :-)<br>
<br>
-Kelly<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Anders Sandberg <<a href="mailto:anders@aleph.se">anders@aleph.se</a>> wrote:<br>
> I have some problems with the animation. It includes preons, which are<br>
> completely hypothetical and have no real support. It gives a size for the<br>
> neutrino, which I have a hard time understanding - they are believed to be<br>
> pointlike, and if that is the spread of a wave packet it is too short. And<br>
> the center of the universe thing is just a mistake.<br>
><br>
> Still, it remains one of the better animations in this genre despite the<br>
> simple graphics. There are more nice-looking ones out there, but this one<br>
> has a nice sense of presence by being fairly densely filled in.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Mike Dougherty wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I discussed with a coworker the nearly unimaginable bigness of space.<br>
>> His comment sums it up nicely: ?"I have enough difficulty judging what<br>
>> size Tupperware ideally fits dinner leftovers, I'm not prepared to<br>
>> imagine the volume of space-time"<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Isn't that one of the saddest things? Worse, most people think the<br>
> tupperware is more important.<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Anders Sandberg,<br>
> Future of Humanity Institute<br>
> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> extropy-chat mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:14:59 -0400<br>
From: Will Steinberg <<a href="mailto:steinberg.will@gmail.com">steinberg.will@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: [ExI] working memory implant! wow!<br>
Message-ID: <BANLkTin=yc=B5G=<a href="mailto:7zoAJrDz%2BeFhV6nbkeA@mail.gmail.com">7zoAJrDz+eFhV6nbkeA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
<a href="http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/8/4/046017" target="_blank">http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/8/4/046017</a><br>
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Message: 8<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:10:40 +0200<br>
From: Stefano Vaj <<a href="mailto:stefano.vaj@gmail.com">stefano.vaj@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [ExI] AGI Motivation revisited [WAS Re: Isn't Bostrom<br>
seriously ...]<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:BANLkTikQNOYckLdXg5qk41bwvmu2fhgy4g@mail.gmail.com">BANLkTikQNOYckLdXg5qk41bwvmu2fhgy4g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
On 17 June 2011 17:28, Richard Loosemore <<a href="mailto:rpwl@lightlink.com">rpwl@lightlink.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> If I had time I would extend this argument: the basic conclusion is that<br>
> in order to get a really smart AGI you will need the alternate type of<br>
> motivation system I alluded to above, and in that case the easiest thing to<br>
> do is to create a system that is empathic to the human race .... you would<br>
> have to go to immense trouble, over an extended period of time, with many<br>
> people working on the project, to build something that was psychotic and<br>
> smart, and I find that scenario quite implausible.<br>
><br>
<br>
It is not entirely clear to me what you think of the motivations of<br>
contemporary PCs, but I think you can have arbitrarily powerful and<br>
intelligent computers with exactly the same motivations. According to the<br>
Principle of Computational Equivalence, beyond a very low threshold of<br>
complexity, there is nothing more to "intrinsic!" intelligence than<br>
performance.<br>
<br>
As to Turing-passing beings, that is beings which can be performant or not<br>
in the task but can behaviourally emulate specific or generic human beings,<br>
you may have a point that either they do it, and as a consequence cannot be<br>
either better or worse than what the emulate, or they do not (and in that<br>
event will not be recognisable as "intelligent" in any anthropomorphic<br>
sense).<br>
<br>
As to empathy to the "human race" (!), I personally do no really feel<br>
anything like that, but I do not consider myself more psychotic than<br>
average, so I am not inclined to consider seriously any such rhetoric.<br>
<br>
Sure, you may well hard-code in a computer behaviours aimed at protecting<br>
such a dubious entity, and if this work to operate the power grid you will<br>
end up without electricity the first time you have to perform an abortion.<br>
Do we really need that?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
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End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 93, Issue 30<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>