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On 10/20/2011 5:20 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAPoR7a7XFoEH6+coUb+9KyvF1V7j3V=7wKY5t_bruKj2AB=HtQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/10/21 <span dir="ltr"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:natasha@natasha.cc"><natasha@natasha.cc></a></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">I
think Stefano means experts in transhumanist-related
arguments, not
"expert transhumanists", per se.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
No, my quotation marks meant that I was just quoting Brent's
language. In fact, I have my own onbjections on the
characterisation of "expert transhumanists".<br>
<br>
Moreover, as already said, I have to meet yet a possible "naive
transhumanist", or anybody at all for that matter, who actually
proposes, say, to make life extension compulsory; so I do not not
really see the need to distinguish ourselves from such an entirely
imaginary bioluddite strawman.<br>
<br>
But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any
source, expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we
should have to disagree with it.<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Stefano Vaj<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
Thanks for asking for clarification of what I meant by “Expert
Transhumanists”.<br>
<br>
First, let me address the question of who are these “coercive
transhumanists”. It is probably true, that there aren’t many people
that would value forcing people to improve themselves, and so on,
although, I bet there are at least some out there, as Keith
iterated.<br>
<br>
I was talking more of the types that mandate taking up military
power, overthrowing governments, and putting in place ones that are
more progressive and transhumanst. Ones that mandates, with
military might, that more money be spent on life extension research,
space programs, and so on. I’d be surprised if you guys have never
met any of these. And I believe it would only take a few, for the
bazillions of luddites out there to amplify what they are saying in
to lots of repeated noise everywhere, lumping all of us together,
way beyond anything the few of us could successfully counter.<br>
<br>
Another good example of this kind of amplified lying noise, is how
wikipedia, and the whole world, is lying about how much expert
consensus there is for and against qualia. The Wikipedia article
(along with the 20K peer reviewed published documents in this field)
makes everyone think there is as much expert consensus against
qualia is there is for it. All the experts know this is a lie, but
what can these few experts do against all the repeated noise of the
very smart but ignorant on this topic masses? Nothing, YET. But
canonizer.com is about to change that in a BIG way, now that we are
getting ready to publish our first dramatic early results about just
how much consensus there is, after all, in this field, on a great
many critically important things such as what and where is qualia.<br>
<br>
If we had a comprehensive definitive survey of what ALL
transhumanusts believed and valued, on a great many such topics,
including should people be forced, and so on, we could show that,
even if they do exist, ‘coercive transhumanists’ are an extreme
minority, compared to what the rest of us want. Such a definitive
survey, which would be proof of what all transhumanists value, would
be the only thing that can stop the popular masses from repeating
such lies, like transhumanists are coercive, above our very minority
voice.<br>
<br>
Next, who are “Extropian Experts”? This is purely a canonizer.com
based term, so I apologize for using it out of context.<br>
<br>
The way canonizer.com is set up, there can be multiple ways people
can become recognized ‘experts’ in any of an infinite number of
micro individual topics. We are measuring for ‘mind experts’ in the
consciousness survey project, to compare and contrast what the
experts think, compared to what the general population things (one
person, one vote canonizer algorithm). These “mind experts” are
determined via a peer ranking process. (see:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/53/11">http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/53/11</a> )<br>
<br>
Another way to become an ‘expert’ on any give survey topic, is for
people to ‘delegate’ their vote to you, in that one survey topic.
Anyone can delegate their vote to anyone else, resulting in
potentially huge trees of delegates, with the people at the top
having huge amounts of influence, on that one survey topic, on any
particular issue.<br>
<br>
In the real world, this may not be a real possibility, but let’s say
there is some imaginary scenario, in some possible world, where
military action is the best thing for transhumanists to do. Let’s
say there is a survey topic on the issue of whether or not we should
do military action for a particular cause (who knows what it might
be). I may delegate my Vote to Spike, who I might consider more of
an expert on this issue than I, and trust he would make a better
decision than myself. On things like what are the best rocket
mechanic issues, spike may consider himself an expert, and vote on
things himself, directly. While on this particular issue he may
know of a friend that he trusts better than himself.<br>
<br>
Let’s say this delegation process repeats beyond Spikes frind, many
more times, resulting at some super ‘transhumanist expert’ at the
top of large delegated trees, on just this micro issue, of should
transhumanists take up arms for some issue. Let’s say this
‘transhumanist expert’ is of course in the non coercive camp, saying
we should not go to war. Let’s say there are several like him at
the tops of all these delegated expert trees, all in the same camp,
on just this issue. And together, there are near 100,000
transhumanists that are delegating their values to them on this
single issue, "Should we go to war?"<br>
<br>
But, then, some new very powerful and very convincing evidence comes
to one of these experts. He then consults the handful of others
leading these 100,000 transhumanists in all these delegated trees,
and they all are very convinced that immediate warring action is by
far the best thing for all transhumanists to do, maybe the fate of
the world is at stake.<br>
<br>
So, when they, all together, jump camps from the no war, to the war
camp, the 100,000 transhumanists all jump with them, because we
trust them, and we all go to war with them – just in the nick of
time, saving the world, or maybe millions of people that would
otherwise have died, or have not made it to the singularity, or
whatever.<br>
<br>
The way canonizer.com survey system is set up, it enables each
individual to select who they want their experts to be (or what
canonizer algorithm they prefer.) This allows the entire crowd to
become as intelligent as the amplified experts, in each individual
topic.<br>
<br>
I'm an expert at only one topic, philosophy of mind. I'm an idiot
at most everything else. Now that all the experts are 'canonizing'
what they think, and stating the best theories, concisely, with
quantitative measure of consensus (by your chosen experts), you to
have a reference to the expert wisdom of the masses on this topic
and keep up with all that, with almost no effort.<br>
<br>
Let's take one other single example issue where I'm completely
clueless. What is the best cryonics organization / method? I can't
spend as much time on something as critical as this, as I do on
philosophy of mind. So I desperately need something similar, so I
can know the best real time theories, concisely stated, with
quantitative measures of my selected experts. There are so many
other similar issues like this, where I'm now living a terrible
life, because I don't know any better. I desperately need to know
the expert based wisdom of the transhumanist crowd so I can live a
better life.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
So, the ‘transhumanists experts’ would be people that have lots of
both kind of this kind of reputation built up, on countless topics
and ‘mind expert’ like surveys. And the ones that were ‘coercive
transhumanists’ would always clearly be extremists, idiots, naive
people that had no expert reputations built up in the system,
compared to the true "Expert transhumanists". <br>
<br>
Does That make more sense? It is all completely leaderless, yet
able to make dramatic changes on a dime, in an instant. If any
experts ever screw up, their power structure vanishes instantly, as
people delegate their support to someone else. Everything is based
and derived, from the bottom up, based on what everyone wants, and
knowing such concisely and quantitatively. If everyone can know,
concicely and quantitatively, what everyone wants, you can stop all
the bickering, ignorant lies of the masses, and easily co-operate
with everyone to finally getting it all. Knowing is the only hard
part, getting it is the easy part once we can all work together at
it, instead of eternal yes / no / yes bickering.<br>
<br>
Sorry it's so long. How many people are still with me? As always
I'd love to know more of your thoughts or questions!!<br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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