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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stefano Vaj<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> ExI chat list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Manning and Assange<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 22 August 2012 19:04, Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com" target="_blank">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>It's not that clear cut. The oath (undertaking) for military service<br>requires you to obey *lawful* orders. If a military superior ordered<br>you to keep quiet about a murder is that a lawful order?<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No! Not even close.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have a colleague who related the story of something that happened when he was in the navy. He was a radio technician, in the navigation room working on the intercom. The boss of that area was a Seaman First Class, who ran all the metrology equipment. The navigator, a First Lieutenant, was present in that room when the Seaman First started saying the depth was reading way lower than expected. They were steaming up a river on the US east coast, don’t recall the name. The Navigator told him to check his instruments, but the Seaman First kept insisting that they were in waters too shallow for that ship (a destroyer) which meant they must be off course, meaning the Navigator screwed up. He became agitated and raised his voice, telling the SFirst to shut up and check his instruments, who kept insisting the readings were too low. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My colleague who was a 19 yr old Seaman 3<sup>rd</sup>, was near panic, seeing a Seaman First arguing with a First Lieutenant, which can be interpreted as mutiny. He didn’t know what to do, so he opened a comm line to the bridge, so the Old Man was up there listening to all this, with the Lieutenant angrily telling the tech to shut up. The disagreement escalated in the next several minutes until they heard a soft cuuush cuuush… cuuush…. as the ship scraped bottom. There was a terrified pause, at which time they heard the engines reverse full. The Seaman First said “Congratulations sir, you just ran us aground.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Right then, the door slammed open and the First Mate was standing there, and Teeeen HUT! The Lt Commander pointed to the Navigator and the technician and said “YOU! YOU! Report to the bridge, immediately.” Those two left forthwith. The commander, on his way out, pointed to the radioman (my colleague) and ordered “Go to your quarters immediately, stay there until called, don’t talk to anyone.” He choked out a terrified “SIR YES SIR” which were the last words he uttered for the next several hours. T here he was in his quarters under orders to not talk, so he didn’t. Orders are orders.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>He was astonished when an ensign showed up carrying him a plate of food. An OSSIFER, bringing a tiny microscopic Seaman Third a plate of food! He thought it must be some surreal nightmare, for he was still under orders to not talk, so he didn’t, not even to thank the Ensign.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>About an hour after that, they called him to the bridge, so here he was among a group of men who had the authority to have him thrown overboard head first, being asked to describe what happened in the navigation room.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The destroyer steamed back out to sea, apparently with no damage, and a helicopter came down the next morning, dropped off a new navigator and took away the old one, who they never saw again. They heard the navigator was charged in court martial with issuing an illegal order, shouting at the tech to shut up. He was likely sent back to a desk job somewhere. My colleague marveled that he had received essentially the same orders in a different context from the first mate, but those orders were legal, and he damn well followed them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So the point of all this is that a soldier or sailor must recognize the difference between legal orders and illegal ones. To witness a war crime and not report it is a war crime.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>