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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stefano Vaj<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Bruce Klein<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 30 October 2012 19:43, Giovanni Santostasi <<a href="mailto:gsantostasi@gmail.com" target="_blank">gsantostasi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>>…</span> se (often people point to some transhumanists connections with satanist organizations), while we see ourselves as the heralds of a better world (not just from a material point of view but also cognitive, moral and spiritual). <br clear=all><br><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Hey, even in satanist organisations theft or embezzlement of organisational funds is best avoided, be it just for obvious practical reasons.<br><br><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Guessing that mitigating circumstances may exist depending on personal knowledge of the perpetrator certainly does not imply that one should condone such conducts.<span style='color:#1F497D'> </span>-- <span style='color:#1F497D'> </span>Stefano Vaj<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agree fully. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is a good example of what I was whining about yesterday. We have a case where this discussion could easily go off on an extended discussion of ethics among atheist and Satanist organizations, or any of a dozen ideas Stefano’s comment gives me. But we would have it all under the subject label of Bruce Klein.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Hey, even in satanist organisations…<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I can speak for myself on this only, but after I came out of fundamentalist Christianity, to agnosticism and eventually atheism (with a lower case a) I found myself walking ever more circumspectly than before, rather than less. There were a few things that were no longer sins, blasphemy for instance. But most of the ethical framework stays in place. We atheists can even continue to call wrongdoing sins if we wish, and if we don’t worry about the religious connotation of the term. For instance, even after religion is gone, lying and theft are still sins, cheating on your spouse is still a sin. Rather, these are still sins in my book, and I am as flaming atheist as anyone. (Hey cool, lets have a contest to see who is the most sincere unbeliever…) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Religion goes, ethical sensibility stays. Being a mean evil bastard is still a sin. Killing is still a sin definitely. The difference now is I no longer have the option of getting down on my knees and talking to the ceiling, asking some imaginary supernatural Santa Clause to forgive me. I must carry my own sins on my own back, all the way to the edge of the dewar, and that sack of sins can be heavy indeed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My point: atheism has its costs. It has benefits to go with it, and these benefits outweigh the costs. I think atheism is the truth, and I love truth. I love all true things, even if the truth is not loveable. Truth outranks happiness. Truth has evidence and reason. I like evidence, evidence is my friend. Reason is my friend. Even if I acknowledge that I was happier as a religious guy, I do not go back, for I love true things.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></body></html>