<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Hi Kelly,<br>
<br>
Yes, definitely progress. I would just provide some advice, in
that I think you are getting side tracked on lots of irrelevant
complex things that are leading you away from the simplicity that
is important here.<br>
<br>
Just think of an idealized world where strawberries only reflect
650 NM light, which can easily be represented with a 1 (what we
intend on picking), and leaves only reflect 700 NM light, which
can easily represent with a 0 (what we don't want). And only
think of one redness quality and one greenness quality that we
both agree is the middle of the road for both.<br>
<br>
Also, we're talking about elemental qualities. Some people think
a single quale, is the entire supper complex emotional experience
they have of life, and so they say my quale could not be felt by
you, without you becoming me. Of course THAT is true, but these
experiences are built up out of, or painted with, elemental
qualities that include the combination of simple elemental
redness, a warmth feeling, our memories of everything to do with
red, like blood. The phenomenal knowledge of us perceiving this
red, the phenomenal emotion, and so on. All of this phenomenal
knowledge is simply lots of elemental qualities our brain uses to
'paint' our conscious knowledge with. And surely we will be able
to 'eff' if you will, the qualitative elemental nature, to each
other, and know if you are using my greenness, to represent the
strawberry with, or if you are using some other phenomenal quality
I have never experienced before in my life.<br>
<br>
Also, you're starting to think sloppily when you say things like:<br>
<br>
<<<<br>
I can have a symbol "red" in a database, and if that is the result
of a query issued by that camera device, then that recognition of
red is no different than what happens from the query in my brain
that comes up with the symbol "red".<br>
>>><br>
<br>
All of that is the intermediate stuff, like the light, the eye,
and everything. They are all just random stuff, for which, if you
interpret it to be 'red' that is what you have. But without that
interpretation, the light is just light, the +5 volts is just
that, and nothing like a redness quality, or the property of the
surface of the strawberry, it is being interpreted as
representing. The only thing that makes such abstract 'red'
substrate independent, is the fact that there is a consistent
hardware layer doing the interpretation, from whatever physical
media you are using to represent it. All that intermediate stuff
can be thought of as 'red', but findamentally, none of it is
anything fundamentally like the initial cause nor the final result
of that perception of red process.<br>
<br>
Are we still on the same page?<br>
<br>
Brent Allsop<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/24/2013 4:31 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAPy8RwbeHHFkBDHtUx9XznF7PDcED6TrtHtaygcR3quQQv1fbQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Brent Allsop <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brent.allsop@canonizer.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@canonizer.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
Hi Kelly,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Communication is a two way street. So if I'm
failing at communication, it is a problem with me,
also. So thanks for trying, and not yet giving up!<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Let's back up a bit, and be sure we are clear on
some of the fundamentals. For example, do you agree
that 'red' is an ambiguous term.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px;line-height:19.19791603088379px;text-align:center;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)">It
is ambiguous in that somewhere between 620–750 nm you
will start seeing red at a slightly different point than
I will, but that is a symbolic representation problem in
how you and I LEARNED the concept red. There would
undoubtedly be a color in there that we both agreed
would be red, and then going off the other end, we would
have the same issue. But there is an unambiguous middle
ground where it is definitely red, and I don't think
that is ambiguous in the least. We would agree that
orange has some redness to it.</span><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>It includes both the initial cause of the
perception of 'red', like when the strawberry reflects
something like 650 NM light. And it also includes a
phenomenal quality, which is a quality of our
knowledge of such. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">The recognition of red by my brain and by your
brain even in the unambiguous case of physical middle of
the road redness will be established by the lighting up of
different neural patterns, or waves of patterns if you
believe some brain scientists.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>In other words, redness is a quality of the final
result of the perception process. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">The recognition of red is different between
you and I, but by the time you turn it into a symbol, and
turn that symbol back into speech, and I recognize the
speech, after all that messing around is done, then we
would agree that we have both perceived red, at least in
many cases. If I reach out to try and understand what you
are saying, redness is a symbol that is the final result
of the perception process.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> So, when we talk about 'red', you must distinguish
between them, and know which one of these you are
talking about!? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">Meaning the physics red and the perception red
and the symbol "red"? Yup, got it. Those are all different
things. Probably a lot of other things in the middle of
those things that we don't have language or technology to
describe, especially in an email, such as sound waves,
brain patterns and waves and so forth. When you break it
down it does indeed get VERY complicated.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Also, all the intermediate representations really
have nothing to do with 'red' other than some
intermediate physical media is being interpreted in an
abstract way, as being red. Without the correct
hardware interpretation layer, there is no 'red'
anywhere in the light or the eye, other than the
abstracted information it all is being interpreted as.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">If there is no eye and no brain, redness can
still be detected by a device. So Redness (if the
definition is agreed upon) is a TRUTH that lies outside of
anyone's brain. I can have a symbol "red" in a database,
and if that is the result of a query issued by that camera
device, then that recognition of red is no different than
what happens from the query in my brain that comes up with
the symbol "red". There is no "emotion", but I don't think
your definition of qualia necessarily includes an
emotional aspect, or does it?</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style="">The qualia, as you call it, of redness, is
simply the mental state of resonating strongly with the
symbol red (as represented by a learned pattern state in
my brain) in the context of an experience conveyed to the
perceiving brain by its sensory input, particularly the
visual input in this case.</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style="">Are we getting anything like closer to common
understanding? <br>
</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style="">-Kelly</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>