<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.hoenzb
{mso-style-name:hoenzb;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brent Allsop<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 29, 2013 9:02 AM<br><b>To:</b> ExI chat list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Digital Consciousness .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi Spike,<br><br><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>>…</span>Qualia are not quantitative, they are qualitative. So you don't describe them with equations, you simply discover and build a map of which physics it is, in which state, (if you are a material fundamentalist. or what information it arises from, if an information fundamentalist...) that have which qualitative properties<span style='color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hmmm, OK thanks, ja but a map is an example of a mathematical description. That would help me understand.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Our discussion has led me to an insight that I would like to expand a bit. Math is a technology. Those of us who really get hot with it get to the point where we use it everywhere always, and perhaps be become dependent. Then when we get in an area where our technology does not apply, we are like those unfortunate victims who become stranded on an escalator:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snkqvWrSBus">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snkqvWrSBus</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Math is such a powerful technology, we soon get as addicted to it as you and I are to electric power and communications tech. There are soooo many things it can help you do, I am at the point where I feel blind, deaf and dumber than a dog turd without it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So here’s my proposed solution (for me, not you.) I have been helping my son study math and science. I will now wander off into an area where my favorite technology cannot help me: a foreign language. For starters, I choose Spanish. Ja, I know, for Californians, Espaniol is not really a foreign language. Depending on your neighborhood, you can legitimately argue it is the local indigenous language. This is my strategy: my son loooves competition of any kind (he takes after his father.) Even more than that, he loooves to compete against his father. This is bad in a way, for he has one area in which he can beat me like an ugly stepchild: Mario Brothers, pretty much anything Mario, I am child’s play to defeat. This is remarkable in that I first played Marios 25 years ago, and he is only 6.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In any case, a six year old has an advantage over grown-ups in language learning. My brain is already filled with equations and such. But his is not, so he can learn it faster. So I propose we learn Espaniol together, even though I have a head start on him. I know enough Espaniol to make small-talk with the local non-English-speaking Vietnamese. This challenge will force me out of my comfort zone, cause me to stretch and grow. When (and if) that pea-sized part of my brain develops sufficiently, the non-mathematical part, then I might have a shot at understanding qualia.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We just need to realize most of us are currently limited to 3 primary colors to paint our conscious knowledge with, but you can theoreize that maybe there are more crayons out there I could discover and paint an amplified conscious knowledge with, so what might those other colors be like? So you go out and discover thousands more, and then you have a lot more colorful diversity enabling you to paint knowledge of much more of the electromagnetic spectrum, and a lot of other things, with. To say nothing of what our limited effing sexual life, and so on, could become like, and so on.<br><br><br>Kelly Anderson asked:<br><<<<br>Can you explain how consciousness and qualia arise from collections of neurons? That is the closest thing to magic that I am aware of on this planet. If we get to the point of removing the magic and replacing that with science, then and only then will we know enough to determine what's happening inside of another sort of head.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>>>><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>We don't know why the laws of physics work the way they do, we just know that they do work this way. And the fact that we have discovered how this magic reality works is what enables Spike to design systems that can dance in the heavens. For all we know, there could be Gods out there pushing the planets around, and so on. Whatever this magic is, doesn't change what we need to do to dance in the hevans.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Similarly, whatever it is that has a redness quality, we don't need to know why it has it, or why it arises from whatever it arises from, we just need to discover what it is that is responsible for each of them. So we can see how others conscious knowledge compares to our own by observing their knowledge, and so we can discover what other colors can arise from what else is out there, and so on. So we can start doing phenomenally godly things like expanding ourselves in the direction of becoming omni phenomenal.<br><br>Is there an infinite number of different crayons to be discovered? Boy, what would a picture with all that be like? Or, just as there is a limited number of elements, are there a limited number of elemental phenomenal qualities correlated to sets of them? Obviously science has an answer for such questions just waiting for us to discover. We just first need to know what to look for (qualities), where to look for them (not on the surface of the strawberry, or in the light...) and how to effing look for them (not thinking that something has a 'grey' quality, just because it is 'grey matter' reflecting grey light). The rest should be easy, we are already way beyond the technology we need, I think.<br><br>It's all just an effing communication problem.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Brent Allsop<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 10:51 PM, spike <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a><br>[mailto:<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>] On Behalf Of spike<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>-----Original Message-----<br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brent Allsop<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>>>...Thanks for putting so much effort towards this, and I apologize that<br>>I still, despite significant progress thanks to everyone's help, have so<br>much difficulty communicating... Brent Allsop<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>>...Brent there is nothing wrong with your communication skills. Qualia is<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>(are?) a difficult concept. I have pondered the hell out of it and still<br>don't feel like I have even suck at it. I would need to vastly improve and<br>get a number of breakthrough insights on qualia to just suck. It isn't your<br>fault: your favorite topic is just hard to grok. spike<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br><br><br>I have been pondering why it is that qualia is (are?) difficult to<br>understand, and I now have the insight: it is because there are no<br>equations.<br><br>The classic figurative notion for a complicated concept is "rocket science."<br>But I would argue that rocket science is not hard to understand at all: it<br>is so completely mapped out with equations, every bit of it, end to end,<br>that it is extremely understandable. All you need to do is get those<br>equations, and now we have our astonishingly powerful mathematical toolkit<br>to bear on it: we can completely understand rocket science well enough to<br>fire a rocket and know right where it is going to land on a planet millions<br>of km away months from now. Rocket science is not at all mysterious, not<br>even so much as what is causing our honeybees to decline. We have equations<br>to describe it all.<br><br>Qualia has (have?) no equations, so I just stand here on the ground flapping<br>my arms. If qualia get (gets?) mathematized, we rocket scientists will<br>mount up on wings as eagles, soar with the winds on that topic. Until then,<br>just useless arm flapping.<br><span style='color:#888888'><br><span class=hoenzb>spike</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>extropy-chat mailing list<br><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>